BS: Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:19 PM

"but no single·solitary·example as requested"
Just to show we're still friends Mike - wouldn't do it for anybody!!
Jim Carroll

The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians.
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians.
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
Girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men
Girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men
Girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men
Girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men
Girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men
Girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:22 PM

PS
And there's more - but you'll have to wait till I stock up on my supply of Philosan
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:41 PM

Wouldn't reply to just anyone either, Jim; in same way. But must point out that these are not examples of the assertion I was asking for examples of: "You have repeatedly stated that British Pakistanis are, by reason of their culture) predisposed to acts of Paedophilia, rape and sex trafficking". That from Don but you have all said it. The repetitions you have cited on your last post all absolutely clearly refer to the worrying over-representations in a limited but significant # of incidents in certain towns, which we have all (incl you) expressed concern about and sought explanations, of street-grooming ~ & TO NOTHING ELSE. In no way related to your, & Don's, & Lox's, et al's, constantly reiterated allegations of K's "repeated" accusations of widespread or racially typical tendencies to "paedophilia, rape & sex-trafficking".

Sorry, Jim: "must try harder". Just show me one place where K has said that ~~ I think if it were there you would have found it to quote back at me by now, & it will turn out be like your allegations of his having called for repatriation: but when I asked you to point out where, it was, er, ahem, ah well, you were glad I had asked you that... remember?

Best

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:55 PM

"There is lots of other dreadful crime for which other groups are responsible, but let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for."
This as been the overlying claim of Keith's imput to this thread.

Nor did I imply (or believe) that he called for repatriation, but I do believe that it is a recurrent call of people who share his views, just as believe that those views have led to horrific crimes of genocide in the past.
Please don't you start twisting my words and taking them out of context.
If it won't do, sorry - this friggin' farce has gone on long enough.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 01:04 PM

Indeed, Jim. I remarked a little earlier, quoting Will Shaxper on another thread, that you can always find the right words in his works somewhere ~~ so I now cry

Hold! Enough!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 01:24 PM

"...you can always find the right words in his works somewhere"
And that is a shameful cop-out - that is what he said, that is what he meant - and that is what I object to.
Here are some facts for you to cry over.
"British Pakistanis were eight times more likely to be victims of a racist attack than white people in 1996. The chances of a Pakistani being racially attacked in a year is more than 4 per cent - the highest rate in the country, along with British Bangladeshis - though this has come down from 8 per cent a year in 1996. The term "Paki" is often used as a racist slur to describe Pakistanis and can also be directed towards non-Pakistani South Asians. There have been some attempts by the youngest generation of British Pakistanis to reclaim the word and use it in a non-offensive way to refer to themselves, though this remains controversial."
And that is what Keith's, and his kind's shite feeds.
Enjoy your meal.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM

You have gone and come back enough times Jim.
Now stay and face the music.

No one can read Lively's links and deny the over-representation.
Given that it is a minority group, it IS a massive over-representation.

It is true that I have come to accept it is due to culture.
I have said where that idea came from, and no other has been produced.

You have no justification for accusing me of racism.
You have failed to offer a single instance of it.
I have certainly never used any derogatory expression to describe any group.

I would love Mudcat even more than I do, if it did not allow a member to be so wickedly slandered on its forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 02:14 PM

.you can always find the right words in his works somewhere"···

Sorry, Jim, you got this bit wrong!!!!!. Look again & you will see it was Will Shakespeare's words I was referring to, not Keith's! Hence my "Hold, enough" [Macbeth]

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 02:24 PM

Lively's links might not last.
From the first (2007)
"I was told by one police officer that he did not 'want to start a race riot' by arresting Pakistani men for sexual offences," Maureen said. During the six months that Jo was in the clutches of these men, they raped, beat and abused her to the point where, says her mother, she did not even know who she was any more. Eventually, after she was attacked by Hussain and Naveed with an iron bar, Jo somehow found the courage to report them to police, and they were arrested. The case took 16 months to come to court. In the meantime, other pimps, undeterred by the impending trial, continued to go about their business.

So what are the police doing? Lancashire police say that in the past few months they have sent letters to 70 men who were believed to be spending an unusual amount of time with young girls. The letters warn the men that the girls are underage; the men are required to sign the letter, confirming they have received and read it.
The details are left on file – but there is no guarantee that the police will take any further action if the grooming continues.

Blackburn, in common with many northern towns, is experiencing a huge upsurge in pimping, and it is an unpalatable truth for the authorities – and indeed the police – that many of the newest wave of pimps come from within the Asian community. Research, conducted in 2005 and involving 106 families seeking help from the Leeds-based campaigning organisation Coalition for the Removal of Pimping (Crop), found that in Yorkshire alone more than 30 girls were sexually exploited, with some being forced into prostitution, by what Crop says are predominantly Asian networks. As many as 200 families have gone to the organisation for advice.

Many affected parents are unhappy with the police response. As this piece goes to press, the families are meeting lawyers to discuss possible action against the police. This could result in the biggest civil action ever brought against police for failing to protect children from sexual predators.

Gemma cannot remember ever being happy, although her mother, Anni, says she was a contented child until she reached the age of 13. That was the day she fell out of puppy love. It was the day that Amir, her 24-year-old boyfriend, chose to brutally rape her.

Gemma had been introduced to Amir by a 15-year-old boy at her Blackburn school. A shy girl with little confidence, she was extremely flattered when she was charmed and actively pursued by the boy, who was thought of by many of the girls at her school as a "dish". When Gemma became enamoured of her new boyfriend, he introduced her to his 24-year-old "cousin", who began plying her with cannabis and alcohol. She initially enjoyed feeling "grown-up" and rebelling against her parents. Soon, Anni noticed dramatic changes in Gemma's behaviour and appearance.

The date Gemma was raped was important – Amir, a seasoned pimp, was well aware of the law. If anyone has sex with a girl under 13, there is a strong risk of being arrested for having sex with a minor. Once they reach 13, however, unless the victim makes a complaint to the police, nothing will happen. Recommendations following the Soham murders clearly state that police should arrest in cases where older males have sex with a child under the age of 16. However, police rarely take action unless the victim complains, thereby allowing the pimps and their customers to act with impunity

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 02:36 PM

2nd link Dec.2010

Rotherham, along with many other towns, cities and villages in northern England has become infected with the vile activities of criminal gangs using children as currency. While child sexual abuse occurs in every community and culture, what is happening in Rotherham and elsewhere in Yorkshire and Lancashire is organised pimping of girls by Asian gangs who trade their victims for cash and favours

Jane's daughter Sophie (not their real names) was a happy, ordinary 12-year-old until she met a group of adult males who would control every aspect of her life. Before she escaped, a year later, Sophie had been raped by the gang members as a way of "breaking her in" and then passed around various other men for sex.

The methods used by the pimps are sophisticated and sinister. First, the girls are identified in locations, such as parks, schools, leisure facilities and shopping malls after which boys of their age are sent to befriend them. After a friendship is established, the boys introduce their contacts to young men whom they often describe as cousins.

Then the grooming process gets really under way. The young man will take the girl out in his car, give her vodka, cigarette and cannabis, and take her to venues she would not normally experience until older.

Often giving the girl a mobile telephone as a "gift", the pimp is then able to track her every move by calls and texting, which eventually will be used by him to send instructions as to details of arrangements with punters. The men sell the girls on to contacts for around £200 a time or as currency for a business deal. "I was always asked why I kept going back to my pimp," says Sophie, "but they flatter you and make you think you are really loved. I thought he was my boyfriend until it was too late to get away." Another tactic of the pimp is getting the girl to despise and mistrust her own parents in order that he can achieve total control over her. The pimps routinely tell their victims that their parents are racist towards Asian people and that they disapprove of the relationships because the men are of Pakistani Muslim heritage, not because they are older. Some of the parents I met were racist, and some had developed almost a phobia against Asian men, fuelled by the misinformation and bigotry trotted out by racist groups in response to the pimping gangs.

In 2004, Channel 4 withdrew Edge of the City, its controversial documentary made by Annie Hall that depicted parents trying to stop groups of young Asian men grooming white girls as young as 11 for sex. It had been seized on by the BNP as a party political broadcast.

Colin Cramphorn, the then Chief Constable of West Yorkshire, joined groups such as Unite against Fascism in calling for the documentary to be withdrawn. Channel 4 complied, saying that the issue was not censorship but timing because of the proximity with the local and European elections. But many argued at the time that the delay in transmission had strengthened the case of the BNP.

After the film was withdrawn, one of the mothers sent Annie Hall a text message: "It's a real shame when votes come before young girls' lives."

Emma Jackson knows exactly how the pimping gangs operate in Rotherham because she was also a victim of one. When Emma was 12, she was befriended by Asian boys around her own age who soon introduced her to relatives in their twenties and thirties.

Emma had no idea she was being groomed and brainwashed until one day, totally out of the blue, she was taken to wasteland and raped by the gang leader. The attack was watched by laughing gang members and recorded on a number of mobile phones.

"People ask me why I kept going back to Tarik, even after he raped me," says Emma, "but he threatened to firebomb my home and rape my own mother if I tried to escape."

"The gangs want virgins and girls who are free of sexual diseases. Most of the men buying sex with the girls have Muslim wives and they don't want to risk infection. The younger you look, the more saleable you are."

One youth worker in south Yorkshire told me that because religious Muslims are being pressurised to marry virgins within their own extended family networks, it means that some are more likely to view white girls as easily available and "safer" than Pakistani girls.

When I first wrote about the issue of Asian grooming gangs in 2007, my name was included on the website Islamophobia Watch: Documenting anti-Muslim Bigotry. So was that of Ann Cryer, the former Labour MP for Keighley in Yorkshire, who had been at the forefront of attempting to tackle the problem, after receiving requests for help from some of the parents of children caught up with the gangs in her constituency.

According to some of the mothers, a fear of being branded racist makes many of the police and social services reluctant to investigate the crimes as organised and connected. One mother from Rotherham, whose 14-year-old daughter was groomed into prostitution and multiply raped during a 12-month period, told me that almost every man convicted of these crimes in the north of England is from Pakistan but that the authorities insist that it is not relevant.

There are, however, a growing number of individuals within the Muslim communities who are willing to speak out against the criminals. Mohammed Shafiq, the director of the Lancashire-based Ramadhan Foundation, a charity working for peaceful harmony between different ethnic communities, advocates better education about sexual exploitation to be disseminated through imams and other community leaders.

"I was one of the first within the Muslim community to speak out about this, four years ago," says Shafiq, "and at the time I received death threats from some black and Asian people. But what I said has been proved right — that if we didn't tackle it there would be more of these abusers and more girls getting harmed."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 03:25 PM

"Now stay and face the music."
Can we confirm that it is still your case that Pakistani paedophilia is a direct result of their culture?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 04:02 PM

The contention is that children are targeted because they are easy meat compared to older girls.
There is overwhelming evidence that BPs are massively over-represented in this specific crime.

Why do you care about an explanation when you deny the fact?

I make no case about the explanation, but I have reported the contention that culture is an issue.
I would not know, but the calibre, knowledge and background of those who make it leads me to believe it, in the absence of any other explanation.

Do you have anything to justify the disgusting things you have said about me on our forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 04:14 PM

That quote of mine.
On 26th Jan I said this to Lox about it.

"I did say,"let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for."

But, the only aspect of the culture I ever referred to was the absence of courtship activities, and you chose not to deny the truth of that yesterday.
There is nothing wrong with saying that.

I also said, "Under such a regime, some young men of any ethnic group would be tempted to go and get sex from where they can."

That is a perfectly reasonable and rational link to suggest."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 04:14 PM

Then you do believe that paedophelia is a direct result of Pakistani culture?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 04:44 PM

At the risk of becoming tarred as a Muslim hating racist I came across this article by Khaled Diab, a Brussels based Egyptian (I think) journalist who often contributes to that bastion of right wing hatred, The Guardian.

I found it interesting that the piece states quite clearly -

So, which Arabs have the most negative views of western women? Well, probably those from the most conservative societies. "From my personal experience, the worst Arab men I found were the ones from Saudi Arabia," a journalist with a leading Portuguese newspaper told me. "They think that all foreign women are prostitutes and they try to treat them like that."

Maybe this goes some way to expaining the over representation of certain people in this crime? Maybe it doesn't. Maybe just by saying that any group leans towards any sort of poor attitude I am showing my obviously right wing, racist attitudes. Or maybe I am just saying that some people have the wrong idea and need to be educated. How should I know? I am pretty sure reading most posters on this thread won't educate me...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 04:49 PM

The only thing that has changed here is that you have finally put your position on the linee as far as British Pakistanis are concerned,
"I also said, "Under such a regime, some young men of any ethnic group would be tempted to go and get sex from where they can."
That is a perfectly reasonable and rational link to suggest."
It is neither reasonable nor rational to suggest such a thing - it is, as I have said RACIST.
Nothing you (rather Lively - you tend to ponce off other's input's) have put up here in any way backs up the claims you have continually made since you first turned this thread into a torrent of hatred for Pakistani culture. If it does, please point it out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:07 PM

"any ethnic group" means no ethnic distinction.
That is the opposite of racism.
I am no racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:11 PM

"you first turned this thread into a torrent of hatred for Pakistani culture"
You must indeed be deranged.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM

No one really thinks you are racist Keith......"racist" is just a handy word to pin on ones opponent in debate, when ones argument has been well and truly shredded.

You have been factual and restrained in your presentation of the evidence for the prosecution.
You have asked many times for an alternative explanation, to be met with either silence or abuse

These "liberal" opponents have been exposed as illiberal people who use bullying tactics in place of reason

"liberal" Fascism is alive and well!!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:16 PM

Jim ~ answer urgently required to mine of 1 Apr 0214 pm,

which you have ignored & so gone on abusing me due to an absurd misapprehension of yr own ~~ see also my last post on the Non-Muslim Prej thread. Yr error has now been 2ce pointed out to you & you have no right to go on as you have been doing.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:46 AM

An observation on your behaviour here Keith.
Lively came up with evidence of further abuses and duely put up his reference for such.
You swooped on those like a vulture, cut-'n-pasted them in all their glory and put them on display in full view, like so many peices of meat on a butcher's slab, because "Lively's links might not last.".
You then squatted on your display of meat and crowed like a cock at your apparent triumph, daring us/me to come and view it.
You have done this throughout this thread; you have treated the individuals concerned, not as human victims of abuse, but as so many exhibits, pieces of evidence to your now openly stated case that Pakistani culture leads to paedophelia.
I think I can live comfortably with being described as deranged by such an individual who would sink as low as that to make such a case.
Mike:
"There is lots of other dreadful crime for which other groups are responsible, but let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for."
Keith said this on Jan 24th 05.28pm. He has more or less confirmed it now - he has never withdrawn it.
As far as I am concerned this has been his case all along - it is a racist statement - or if not, why not?
Perhaps you would now like to comment on his dishonesty in editing Jack Straw's statement and removing the reference to these crimes having no racist connection, but rather criminal acts carried out by tesosterone filled young men who could have come from any background.
He also edited out "Pakistanis are not the only people who commit sexual offences and overwhelmingly sex offenders' wings are full of white offenders."
If Keith's concern is merely 'over-representation, WHY REMOVE SOMETHING SO ESSENTIAL TO THE WHOLE QUESTION?
I have not commented on the claimed over-representation of young Pakistani men in these crimes; I have stated from the beginning that I believe we have nowhere near enough information to arrive at any firm conclusions. I do have opinions on the reason, but they are as ill-informed as any that have been made so far, hence my reluctance to put them forward.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:59 AM

Sorry Mike,
Just checked the other thread:
I did mistake what you were referring to; I did misunderstand what you said (my Shakespeare has always been uneven), and I did accuse you of something that you were in no way guilty of.
I, of course withdraw any unjust accusations I have made and apologise,
and will do so on the other thread.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:21 AM

Sorry - me again Mike,
Please do not bother answering my challenge/questions above should you not feel inclined. It was part of my misunderstanding and I would not have asked them otherwise.
Sorry again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:42 AM

Many thanks, Jim. Apology instantly accepted of course. Back, please to square 1!

Same to be posted on other thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:03 AM

Why would I edit out "criminal acts carried out by tesosterone filled young men who could have come from any background." when I said myself "Under such a regime, some young men of any ethnic group would be tempted to go and get sex from where they can." ???

I said that on 26thJan.It is the same!

Why would I edit out "Pakistanis are not the only people who commit sexual offences and overwhelmingly sex offenders' wings are full of white offenders." when I have been acknowledging that, over and over again, from the start of this??

I do not need to resort to dishonesty.
That is what you do.
I have evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:37 AM

Then why do it - sorry, doesn't make sense - don't believe your explanation (this version or any other you have made)
And why not address you J. P. Barnum 'Roll up, roll up" attitude to rape victims.
Goulish behaviour if ever I saw it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:40 AM

Jim, i read the bindel pieces some time ago, and i found them compelling enough that they probably helped to inform some of my own thoughts on this subject. Perhaps i should have linked to them before as its not easy to wade through the mountains of results regurgitating identikit 'jack said' cut and pastes from the daily mail, but i did't consider it at the time and nor did i retain retain links. Perhaps to my credit however, it suddenly strikes me that i've unwittingly succeeded in reading around this topic without once reading anything printed therein! In any event, i suppose i need to confirm that my posting them now, was not for the purposes of supporting any 'hypothsis' being made here, more a general clarification of 'where i'm coming from' in this discussion after mistakingly assuming that your 'sudden conversion' comment was aimed my way.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:44 AM

I do not fill up my posts with irrelevant tosh.
If the over-representation was not constantly denied, I would not have had to keep producing evidence.
It is the blinkered denials that have kept this thread alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 05:20 AM

Not questioning your sincerity Lively, just the use your findings are being put to here; you seem to have put them forward responsibly and without an agenda.
Elswhere we might have been allowed to discuss them rationally; not here, I'm afraid.
"I do not fill up my posts with irrelevant tosh."
All of your postings are filled with irrelevant tosh - won't do Keith; why did it take four excuses before settling on this one.
"It is the blinkered denials that have kept this thread alive."
No, it is your irrelevant postings (around 540, now) that has kept this thread alive. Bit of a nerve accusing somebody else for keeping this thread alive.
And your excuse for your goulish use of raped children is......?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 07:58 AM

I have shown that I had nothing to gain by editing out stuff that I was saying anyway.
You decide why I left it out.
No one else cares.

My posts were all countering doctrinaire denials, or defending myself from all the malice.

I had to post about raped children because you and Lox keep denying their suffering.

Do you now accept the over-representation, or do I have to post even more evidence?
(There is yet another gang awaiting trial in Rochedale)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 08:52 AM

"I had to post about raped children....."
You pompous bastard!
No you didn't; lively had posted the information - you capitalised on it
Nobody had denied anything - you leeched off the suffering of children and peddled your ideas on their backs.
Nobody had denied anything here; we question how much we know about the events and their causes; certainly not enough to blame a whole culture. We are sickened by people like yourself who attempt to use the suffering of others to promote your twisted ideas
"There is yet another gang awaiting trial in Rochedale"
And I can see you look forward to exploiting the outcome with as much glee as you have shown with Lively's information
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 08:57 AM

I'm unsure if any cases of gang grooming and pimping in Bolton have been flagged up anywhere as yet? The article here concerns not a conviction for either grooming or sexual offences, but rather depicts the consequences of such activity. At least the judge and jury were lenient enough not to convict the teenage girl being tried for selling her pimps coke. Too many times the victims of crime end up becoming the ones criminalised:

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/8900946.Teenager_groomed_to_sell_drugs/

I would respectfully suggest that the entire contents of this article need not be cut and pasted onto this thread. The only thing I would add, is that unlike some of the other material being contended here, this girls statements were clearly made under oath.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 09:29 AM

Jim, how can you say, "Nobody had denied anything - you leeched off the suffering of children and peddled your ideas on their backs.
Nobody had denied anything here;" !!??

Straight question.
Do you accept that on-street grooming, by groups, for rape and pimping, is mainly a crime of BPs, at least in the towns and cities of Yorkshire, Lancashire, Derbyshire and Greater Manchester?

Last time I asked you said YES OF COURSE but 24 hours later changed your mind and you and Lox denied it ever since!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:28 PM

Lively,
I think all these matters are worthy of discussion, but I don't believe it has been here, and I can't honestly see it happening in the future.
Should you ever wish to discuss it elsewhere out of range of the agenda zone, I would be more than happy to do so.
Best wishes,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:37 PM

Jim, straight question.
Do you accept that on-street grooming, by groups, for rape and pimping, is mainly a crime of BPs, at least in the towns and cities of Yorkshire, Lancashire, Derbyshire and Greater Manchester?

Are you afraid to answer Jim?
Is it because you can't deny it any longer, but you can't admit it either, and you can't do another walk out?
Tricky situation.
Whatever you do you will look an arse.
You made this bed for yourself.
You must lie on it.
You are good at lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:35 PM

Thanks Jim, and I appreciate the difficulty of discussing sensitive subjects on a forum such as this, particularly as I walked right into the middle of an already heated disagreement.

I don't know how many people posting here had already been following some of these cases under discussion, but the phenomenona being described in some of these stories was news to me until I stumbled blindly into this thread, and it provoked me to start ploughing through other relevant discussions and articles on-line.

There has been some doubt expressed here around whether or not there is any substance to some of the claims being made about the volume of alleged victims by Cryer et al. And a particular point was made about the first story I flagged up by way of response ("Emma" in the Independent) that (approx) 'interesting as her story is, it was not made under oath.' The Bolton story linked to above was posted in particular response to that point. There may be further reports out there on the internet, which provide similar testimony, but I if I find them I won't link to any further stories here. I'm aware that while I may have added fuel to the fire, I hope some of my contributions to this thread have provided food for thought, and if so, then that is quite enough as I'm not here to fight any battles on behalf of anyone else. And it seems I may be in danger of doing just that, which was really not my intention.

Meanwhile, I am waxing thoroughly tired of this subject and as that's as much as I think it is useful for me to participate in this discussion (fingers and toes crossed) this really will be my last posting on this thread..

Exeunt

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:52 PM

Lively, it should not be about battles, and truthful hard evidence should not be seen as fuel for a fire.

We started out with just Straw, Cryer, and the Dando Institiute findings.
To me it seemed clear that there was an issue, but first Lox, then others and Jim all denied it.

Thus it became a debate, but their only case was that I was a racist, as if that stopped it being an issue anyway!

So I fed in more evidence and defended myself from the malicious allegations.
You proved better at finding stuff than me.
Why would you hesitate to supply it, whoever it favours?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:00 PM

Jim Lox and Don.
I told the childrens' stories because you denied them a hearing.
So now I am a ghoul!.

Whenever I spoke of them I spoke sympathetically of their plight and suffering.
I can not remember one of you making a sympathetic comment.

You just wished they would shut up.
They are an embarrassment to you.
Lox pointed out that Emma was not under oath and was not trained in psychology.
A lying, ignorant slut was your hidden message.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:44 PM

"This really will be my last posting on this thread.."
Yup = mine too - nobody left to talk with
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:48 PM

Before you run away and hide Jim, do you accept that on-street grooming, by groups, for rape and pimping, is mainly a crime of BPs, at least in the towns and cities of Yorkshire, Lancashire, Derbyshire and Greater Manchester?

Surely people who have tried to follow your case are entitled to know your position!
Has it changed or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:19 PM

"Surely people who have tried to follow your case are entitled to know your position!"
No Keith - people are now bored out of their skulls with this thread, with the excepption of yourself, who still appears to believe, rather disgustingly, that there are still a few points to be scored out of the suffering of raped children
- please g.f.y. - with my blessing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:56 PM

I would like to know if you have changed you position again Jim.
You appear to now accept the over rep.
You have been furiously denying it for weeks and saying only a racist could accept it.
There was a 24 hour period where you did accept it, but up to then you were again denying it furiously, and accusing me of lying, racism and bigotry for daring to believe.

After all that vehemence, how can you go without stating your latest position.
I am sure Lox would want to know if he is on his own.
I can not be the only person on Mudcat who wonders where you stand.
Tell us Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 06:11 AM

Jim,
"nobody left to talk with"

You were quite happy to talk here with me before the last avalanche of evidence from Lively that totally destroyed your case and vindicated everything I have been saying.

You could have avoided this humiliation.
As I said before to Lox, it is a noble thing to stand up for a minority who have suffered persecution in the past.
There was no disgrace in refusing to believe at once stories that showed some of them in a bad light.
If you had made that stance, and looked objectively at the evidence, and above all not resorted to vile abuse against anyone who saw things differently, you could have retained your dignity.

Instead you now have your huge ludicrous arse on public display.
Good result for me though.
Thanks Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 07:59 AM

IN SPACE - NO-ONE CAN HEAR YOU SCREAM

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:40 AM

Oh I see ...

... SO it isn't keiths hypothesis that Pakistanis are closet Paedos ... he is merely reporting it ... impartially ...

round and round we go again.

But no cigar keith.

That old sleight of hand was debunked about 1000 posts ago.

Your whole purpose has been to defend that hypothesis through thick and thin (gong on for 3 months now), you clearly stated that it was your hypothesis that Pakistani culture was responsible for these crimes.

Only you thought at that time that it forced young men to go and seek satisfaction elsewhere.

But the evidence is that young men were merely used as bait by HIGHLY organized traffickers of an international nature...

... so it isn't the fizzing popping testosterone and these crimes bear no recognizable Pakistani features.

As for the idea that there are no other explanations, that has also already been dealt with - the dando institute have given a plausible explanation that Keith refuses to acknowledge, that is not based on political opinion but on scientific likelihood.

Round and round - la la la - fighting to prove that Pakistanis are different.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:50 AM

I can hear YOU screaming Jim, and I'm bloody enjoying it.

Lox,
"But the evidence is that young men were merely used as bait by HIGHLY organized traffickers of an international nature..."

You are making that up Lox.
The evidence is that young BP boys were merely used as bait by HIGHLY organized traffickers of a BP nature.

You over estimate my knowledge Lox.
I knew nothing about the culture.
I got all my knowledge and the hypothesis from those listed authorities.
In the absence of any other hypothesis, and in view of their knowledge and experience, I am inclined to believe them.
List your objections to it and your alternatives Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:54 AM

Just been reading Livelys "avalanche" of evidence.

It all proves beyond doubt that Pakistanis are culturally predisposed to rape eh keith?

No.

It refers once again to organized gangs.

All of it.

I agree that these gangsters should be caught and prosecuted.

I hope they are.

None of that bears any relevance to keiths crusade against Pakistanis.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:58 AM

"You are making that up Lox.
The evidence is that young BP boys were merely used as bait by HIGHLY organized traffickers of a BP nature."

No keith,

all the serious commentators have said that these gangs have been comparable to international trafficking gangs.

ie - they are not distinguishable from international trafficking gangs.

ie - there is nothing that marks pakistani gangs in the north of england from other gangs.

ie there is nothing to suggest that pakistani culture bears any responsibility for these crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 09:10 AM

But, the gangs are all BPs.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:20 AM

I'm afraid Keith, that you are attempting to debate with madmen.

Why not let them stew in their juice, they equate to "flat earthers".