BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:18 PM

Stu is absolutely correct, sport and hunting is not the issue, whytthe hell do we allow weapons of war.. Some sports men will tell me they use their hunting. My response, get the proper rifle for hunting that is not the one any true hunter wants and illegal to hunt with in many states. We just don't need them. We have common sense laws on what is a street legal car. You can't have nitrous oxide tanks on the street. So why not weapons.. If you competition shoot, you use a bolt action rifle, same for hunting.. That shooter had one of the newer versions of a stoner rifle modified for full auto replacation.. Why... For war not sport

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:21 PM

A full auto 308 with a military sniper scope.. Bumper stock.. Ugh

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:34 PM

Every weapon i saw when they panned his roomwas a hhigh end weapon of war that would workwwell forany army . Yet he can legally buy them modify them and get on no one's radar... Fix the fucking laws

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:37 PM

But what I expect is a slew of new laws as always that only affect me and other deer hunters and do nothing to plug loopholes or make anyone safer.. That's what ny does

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:40 PM

I'd say one of the main problems in the last decade has been the plethora of Cable channel documentaries and reality soaps making semi auto machine rifles look as sexy and desirable as they can...

I'm as guilty as anyone for enjoying my weekly fix of "Sons of Guns" for all the adrenaline rush speaker rattling gunfire and explosions...

But companies like Red Jacket made military style semi autos to appeal to the pockets of 'regular guys' who wanted the latest and best TV endorsed status symbol guns to show off to their drinking buddies,
and make as much recreational mayhem as possible blasting melons and water buckets etc
out in the back yards and woods....

Loud fast assault rifles to shoot up the cardboard cut outs of bin laden with a truck full of 6 pack beers...

Fun.. but stupidly socially irresponsible, and potentially deadly in the wrong hands

Like getting the loudest Marshall amp and Les Paul to rock out the neighbourhood from your garage...

or a mad customised harley, or muscle car..

Big brash toys for macho knucleheads.... ??

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 10:02 PM

"A fully loaded auto, 308 with a military sniper scope.. Bumper stock"
What make of car is this and is it street legal? ;^)

sorry I should not be trite, there is nothin funny about masa shootings.
What is considered a mass shooting is four or more victims.

The elephant in the room are venues that could equal the kill numbers of Los Vegas. College games, NFL, Baseball, Central Park, Inauguration crowd etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 10:44 PM

I have seen the NRA programming on cable that includes how to legally shoot someone and what you need to know legally.

I have spoken to managers at Giant food for a year regarding not carrying a single science magazine but displaying ten different GUN magazines. TO NO AVAIL btw there were lots of religious magazines.
This is a vendor's choice not a commercial choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 02:11 AM

Why is there a perceived need for the type of guns that olddude objects to? Two reasons, the wording of your second amendment and the rather mystifying truth that it would appear that Americans just simply do not trust their Government (If the Army and National Guard units have automatic or semi-automatic weapons, then I too must have those types of weapons to allow me to defend myself).

Make it harder to buy and own a gun? - Impossible in a country that already has more "licenced/registered" guns than people (112.2 guns for every 100 people in the country). The number of unlicenced and unregistered firearms will be staggering and among those you will have all the "war souvenirs" dating back to WWI.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:00 AM

You have to start somewhere and they can do buybacks and get a bunch of them out of the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:29 AM

I had actually been wondering:

How many of the dead were shot, rather than died because there was a shooting going on (shrapnel, trampling, etc)?

How many of the injured were shot, rather than injured by shrapnel or from themselves or others trying to get away from the shooter?

I had a talk with an EMT gun enthusiast friend of mine, and he said you can't aim with a bumper stock, so we thought maybe of the injured (500ish) 150 shot 50 shrapnel 300 other injuries, and of the dead, higher proportion shot, maybe 45. Total guess. What do other gun or EMT experts say?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:48 AM

Shot or trampled...???

dead is dead....

Nobody would have been killed or injured at that massacre if a finger had stayed off a trigger....

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM

Amen, PFR.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:51 AM

Of course you can try to start somewhere and the measures mentioned in passing by olddude would be a good start - how that goes about changing the perceived notion that one has to be capable of defending oneself against your own government and the mistrust and belief that your own government is going to attack you is going to be a "North face of the Eiger" type climb in a country riven by schisms, some of whom date back to it's conception.

So while you may make a start, realise the scale and magnitude of the problem (And that is only taking registered firearms into account) and resign yourselves to the fact that this sort of atrocity will be repeated in the future time and time again as if ever there was one - this is most definitely a case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:53 AM

Gravity waves IMPOSSIBLE
until you prove it
now LIGO scientists get the Nobel prize/

GUN Regulation will save lives IMPOSSIBLE?
To say impossible is an ignorant POV.

What do you hope to prove Mrzzy? Guns are not to blame but stampedes are?

I am thinking the note found in Poddard's room with numbers are declination and wind adjustment numbers.

Victims do not recount seeing tracer bullets but Poddard had them in the room. http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/thousands-mourn-slain-officer-las-vegas-probe-50319208

Some posts here seem to not know the difference between lies fake news propaganda and NRA jargon.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:04 PM

just face the facts.
its like i said about a hundred posts ago.
life and death is like that over in America, because that's the way they want it.

if they wanted it different, they have access to a free press and democratic process. if enough people actually cared, things would change.

they don't give a shit about the present situation. its their business. go there at your peril.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:35 PM

The wack jobs that say they need
Those weapons for fear of
government should not own a sharp stick.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:53 PM

Couldn't agree more olddude but fact is that the American's "holy of holy's" - your Constitution - has brought about a situation where those "wack jobs", as you call them, are guaranteed and have damned sight more effective weapons than sharp sticks, and there is absolutely nothing that over 235.5 million US Electors will do about altering or amending the rights enshrined in that document - you've had how many of these incidents now? Over how many years? And absolutely nothing has been done to ensure it will not happen again. That is the case and that will continue to be the case - because no-one must touch the Constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 01:45 PM

The US has a rich history of adding and abolishing amendments.
That is the next DC debate.

He did not have tracers. The Gun Store was out of stock.

The Vegas hotels are used to allowing people to bring dozens of guns and ammo into their lobbies and rooms. Vegas is famous for having gun shows that sell guns privately without any regulations about 2 to 3 times a month. Vegas gun shows are considered entertainment and are as common as dirt. There are 2 major gun shows that are continuous and some minor ones outside the strip.

Hotels are happy to oblige.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 02:14 PM

"The US has a rich history of adding and abolishing amendments."

Really Donuel? Here is a brief summary of that "rich history" from 1789 to 2014:

11,539 proposed amendments have been introduced of which only 33 got anywhere. Of those 33 proposed amendments 27 have been ratified by the requisite number of states (But as two of these cancel one another out that only makes 25 amendments that are in force), 4 proposed amendments are technically open and still pending, one is closed and has failed by its own terms, and one is closed and has failed by the terms of the resolution proposing it. So in 225 years out of 11,539 amendments you've managed to pass 25 of them, or 0.23% of all those proposed - A rich history indeed - One of almost complete and utter inaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:25 PM

No Donald, but they will pass laws that will directly affect a deer hunter and we will obey, but won't stop a gun show where youcan get any mmilitary weapon without a bg check.. But if I want a box of 12 gage shotgun shells for huntinghere in ny , I have to buy them from a gun shop only. I guess it's to protect the bunnies I hunt. However go to a gun show and stock up on Teflon bullets or tracers for your fucking machine gun.. No problem Ok see my point

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:34 PM

They passed a safe act in this state that only affected hunters and target shooters and made the gun store's wealthy.. Now instead of buying a box of ammo to Site your gun in or target shoot, you reload your own so now people have power and a thousand rounds at home because it's cheaper.. Feel safer government. You don't know guns ask someone who does and will tell you what to fix in your zillion nothing laws

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:42 PM

Oh they announced in ny, you are legal to buy abbumper stock, but illegal now to have it on the ar gun.. I feel so much better... As I scream

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:14 PM

Bad lying by the NRA: This is not the time.
Elite Hollywood gun safety groups make billions every day (LA Pierre)
   Gun laws do not do any good
I can propose 12,000 'failed' anti gun amendments [in the words of dick cheney] So What. who ever you are you are full of meaningless numbers

Now I am going to go someplace no one talks about...

Imagine someone has purchased 35 guns pistols weapons etc.
Imagine now the imagination of the mind who bought multiple weapons.
There are dreams, scenarios, secret ambitions , private motivating thoughts, Disgusting things you would want to know.
Maybe he see himself a hero a vengeful anti hero, a villain, in a war, winning a war, Shooting the FBI, shooting the president of the government, who knows?

All of those mental images are personal motivating thoughts or he wouldn't keep buying more guns, hoping he'll get that special feeling again. Sound like an addiction? They do not often end well.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:27 PM

Fantasies - Maybe pure coincidence..

A recent big budget Hollywood action movie "The Accountant"
is a bizarre and gleefully entertaining 'shoot-'em-up' concerning an autistic accountant
who leads a secret life as one of the world's greatest ever mercenary hit men...

I watched it twice earlier this year..
[hmmm.. and I did gain A level Accounting exam back when I was 18 and still fairly mainstream and sensible]

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:44 PM

Some would argue the accountant had Asperger's syndrome rather than autism. In any case, He was a victim of his father's extreme instruction and training.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:59 PM

Autism or Asperger's [I should have verified - months since I watched it]..
the whole premise and tone of the movie was entirely bonkers..

But a real life accountant with a secret double existence as a gun crazy mass killer...????

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:01 PM

thank you punkfolkrocker

Fantasies was the word that was blocked via dyslexia.

My neighbor is an account and has a huge gun collection, hmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:28 PM

I like that movie, and he had a great collection of guns and an rv.. Wait so do I hmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:34 PM

I am harmless unless you are a deer

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 02:07 PM

I'm a (retired) accountant and I wouldn't allow a firearm of any kind in my house, or anywhere on my property. Nobody needs a gun, except farmers and members of the armed forces. Nobody.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:03 PM

In America an authentic Backwoodsman   might have a long
gun or two
.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:49 PM

i love bsa airguns, but they're all made in Spain by gamo nowadays.

in my living room i have framed several adverts for the bsa meteor from the old eagle magazine. they have the address of the old factory in btum on them.

i can sort of understand how Americans feel about gun ownership. there is a beauty there. they respond to that, and as such its part of their cultural identity.

that said. they have problems, but 'just say no' - doesn't really persuade anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:51 PM

Oh, life is precious, so they are taking away abortion rights because of the Las Vegas shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 06:41 PM

Congrats on the new twins Mrrzy/ They took away women's paid for birth control, or didn't you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 08:09 PM

https://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/survival/animal-attacks/2009/08/charging-grizzly-killed-alaska

You guys don't fish where I do

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 08:21 PM

And that's why I also own a 454 casull revolver

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: bobad
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 08:25 PM

You guys don't fish where I do

Wise Men Fish Here

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 09:44 PM

Lol perfect

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: bobad
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 10:18 PM

It was my favourite book store in NYC but, alas, it is no more.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:54 AM

Aww, I know how you feel I lost all of mine around here also.. They just can't compete with the big ones and kids these days don't read just play video games... Sad

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 02:53 AM

I don't fish either, 'dude! And if I did, no fisherman in England needs a gun!

Despite my loathing of guns and gun-nuts, I do understand that there are reasons why **some** civilians might **need** a gun - protection against dangerous wild-life, vermin-control, yadda yadda. Different countries, different circumstances.

But, in general, I stand by what I said - the vast majority of gun-owners don't actually need a gun, except in their paranoid imaginations.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:22 AM

I've said it before... a written constitution is an albatross around the neck of any society.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:02 AM

why's that Stu?

i always think it might be an idea to have our government committed to freedom , decency in writing - rather than some European Court guaranteeing our rights.

Having said that. I am pretty stupid about these things, I could well be wrong about that, as I am about everything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:52 PM

A written constitution doesn't move with the times as the gun laws amply demonstrate. You end up with anachronisms like the right to bear arms that are either interpreted differently by different people (people being people) or used in a way it was never meant to, to justify horrors and legitimise the agendas of groups and individuals that are not interested in the common good.

Also, it's roundly ignored. First amendment? Not if you're black and taking the knee, then you're insulting the flag. The VP can piss away hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayers money simply to make the point of a foul liar of a man who sent him on a mission to subvert that very amendment.

The flexibility of an unwritten constitution is preferable, allowing a society to adapt to changes in the wider world as well as things like technology and a million other factors. Societies must move with the times.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:09 PM

Problem with that stu is now you put in the hands of whatever elected people incredible power like passing a law to limit your free speech or press. If it's not written in stone

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 08:01 PM

The handful of nations without a constitution are just as vulnerable to Corporate take overs as nations that have a Constitution like the US.

I have been ever opposed to Corporatism because I believe them desirous of introducing, into our government, authorities hereditary or otherwise independent of the national will. They always consume the public contributions and oppress the people with labour & poverty.
Corporations like the NRA have held Congress hostage and the will of the people ignored.

Stu's point is as academic as it gets here. It is a valid debate. Hell even slavery is not a finalized debate these days.


Thomas Jefferson/Donuel

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 08:28 PM

interesting. i suppose my first reaction is to say 'why would an idiot like me who finds restringing a rickenbacker a logistical nightmare have the answer to such a complicated question?'

the second reaction though is to think...well in England we have hundreds of anachronistic laws we've never bothered repealing - driving ducks actoss westmister bridge, every yeoman having to practice archery, every gentleman having to carry a sword. we'd be a nation of sword carrying, duck driving loonies - always asking for a day off work to practice archery.

in fact , I suspect in America as well - we just let our common sense prevail and quietly forget the daft stuff.

is it really the demands of the written constitution, or is it the armament companies acting like irresponsible idiots who have caused this present situation where 20 odd thousand people are killed every year quite needlessly?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM

"Problem with that stu is now you put in the hands of whatever elected people incredible power like passing a law to limit your free speech or press."

Except in practice it doesn't work like that, not here in the UK at least. For example, we argue about the bias of our broadcast media and each side thinks it's biased against them, which means in practice it's probably relatively balanced. It's because the public are so vociferous about broadcast media bias that any bias is called out immediately: a positive for social media.

An unwritten constitution means society operates under a broad consensus unencumbered by the dogma of a document written by people long dead who could not have imagined the world we live in today. This consensus isn't perfect and a glance below the line here on Mudcat shows how UK folk discuss, debate and argue (sometimes very robustly, sometimes poorly) constantly but that is in a way a microcosm of the way our society works.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:12 PM

Do go on but I interrupt to trace the TIMELINE of the shooter in Vegas.

Pollard moved into his Mandalay hotel room over two days then on the night of ... THEN

Note that the first person shot is the Security Guard.
He is always called The Security Guard. Why?
Because his name is Jesus. Honest to GOD.

Jesus came to the door and Poddard shot the shit out of him through the door with automatic gunfire.

What did Jesus do?

He said he called his boss, police changed the words to authorities.
Here are all the versions   different stories

Did the police cover their ass?
Did Jesus rapture Pollard?
How is Jesus now?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:26 PM

So...before there was any shooting from the windows into the crowd,
Jesus knocked on the shooters door. Then..

he was hit by bullets through the door while on a private camera.
OR
he was chased down the hall and shot in the leg while trying to hide.
he called on his own phone to Hotel Authorities or on a hallway phone, or both. We still do not know.

The Shooter then began his carnage and crowd shooting six minutes later and stoop shooting 10 to 12 minutes later. There were thousands of rounds of ammunition left over. He could have kept shooting but didn't? Was he afraid of cops coming in and capturing him? Did he shot himself then? The cops did not arrive or even discover a wounded Jesus in the hallway for at least 45 minutes. Then they blew the door open and discovered the guns and ammo alongside the body of Poddard.