BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault

Subject: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: Alan Day
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:04 AM

We are all concerned about the World situation regarding bird flu ,but it disturbs me to see the poor Chickens, Geese, turkeys, Ducks etc being bundled into dustbins in a cruel manner.It is not their fault and they could at least be handled in a humane manner.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 02:51 PM

Governments realise that although they may not be able to do very much to prevent such diseases - it always looks good to be seen to be killing something.

I am also worried about those that need very little excuse to go out and start shooting any flying wild thing - just in case.

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:36 PM

So, what would you propose? Especially in countries like Vietnam?

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: DougR
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:41 PM

Well, Rapaire, the least they could do would be to give them a decent funeral!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: Alan Day
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:08 PM

It is a serious matter and steps of course are to be taken where
necessary.
The way battery chicken farms are run in some countries and the conditions these poor creatures are kept in,it is no wonder that a disease has been created.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 04:18 AM

Very funny song from the guy from the Lincoln Club:-

There'll be flu birds over
the white cliffs of Dover

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: Ernest
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 11:16 AM

6 posts and no one claimed it was Dubya`s fault!
What happened to this place....
;0)
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 01:58 PM

I'm not certain this can be blamed in any way on battery chicken farms, however much one dislikes the practice. Battery farms were not about during the time of the Spanish flu epidemic and still the virus mutated. In BC in a recent bird flu outbreak, barns were sealed and the birds gassed.

The virus is well established in the wild fowl population and in BC, most of these farms are in the Fraser River delta which is on a major migratory flight path and winter feeding area. The virus was thought to have been passed to farm stock from the wild bird population. More likely, initially to free range poultry, than those in inclosed buildings.

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: DougR
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:38 PM

I read that if one does not play with birds or chickens, ducks or geeze, pigeons, turkeys or any other type fowl, one should not worry too much about bird flu. So those of you who live on farms, stick with the four legged animals.

Kendall: Llamas should be safe enough.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: Little Robyn
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 04:51 PM

On telly last night we saw the teams shoving chooks into sacks to be killed.
Disgusting!
Then there was a cooking programme on Asian food and most of the meals involved chicken.
Now, if the authorities kill off all the chickens, will the Asians all starve?
I can see the small farmers keeping hidden chickens and an illicit trade building up - and then the disease could really get out of hand!
Scary!
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: jaze
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 05:19 PM

Well of course it's W's fault!:>)

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 08:28 PM

And how many dead chickens are worth a pint of Al-in-a-DAY?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

to equate the life span of a pea-sized-brained bird with the alternative is hilariously absurd.

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 08:54 AM

With or without chips?
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 09:38 AM

I understand (from a posting by Shanghaiceltic, who's living in China) that the conditions in some bird-raising places there can only be described as filthy and disgusting. At the least, in "battery farms" the birds are viewed as a source of income and attempts are made to keep them as healthy as possible because of the potential for income loss.

But let's not drift. No, H5N1 or H5N2 is not the birds' fault. But humans have to deal with it to the best of their ability. And humans all too often -- especially in the "developing" world -- don't have the skills, knowledge, or resources to do things differently. (I say "knowledge" in the full realization that many scientists in these countries are highly trained and very skilled...but they still have to deal with local officials who could well be none of these and responding to orders issued in panic. And then there are the workers who have to do the dirty work....)

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:47 AM

If I've learned anything in all my many, many years on this planet it is that the 'authorities' cannot be relied upon to do anything right - often their priorities are so weird and skewed that they end up doing things that appear completely mad. They also act according to a widespread (and probably erroneous) view that the more money there is involved, the more complicated and tortuous the course of action has to be.
They also just love the exercise of raw power. Remember the foot-and-mouth outbreak, in the UK, of a couple of years ago? Remember the relish with which they slaughtered thousands of animals? - probably unecessarily, as it turned out.

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 06:11 AM

"The real debate should be about vaccination - the only real long-term measure that will work from everyone. There is a terrible irony in the fact that the growth in scientirfic research and technology now means we can engineer a vaccine agaisnt a new strain in weeks, and yet it can't actually happen.

There are only a handful of factories worldwide capable of manufacturing such a vaccine and they cannot make more than 300 million shots in a year, compared with the several billion that are needed (Jo Revill, writing in The Obvserver today, 16th Oct.)

Basically it's a matter of a system in which drug development and production are geared to making profit rather than meeting need. It doesn't have to be that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: Splott Man
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 07:41 AM

Serious question folks.

Is this a press panic?

According to th BBC this morning, there have been a total of 60 human deaths in 2 years in the Asian regions where bird flu is present. A colleague tells me that 120 people have actually caught it, so it's a high risk if you get it.
But how does that compare with the number of deaths in the UK (or Europe as a whole) each year from common or garden flu?

(Sorry that's 2 questions)

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 08:06 AM

At this point I suspect that it is, Splott.

That is not to say that it cannot develop into something else, of course.

I remember the scares and "shortages" of the 1970s. Toilet paper comes to mind....

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:56 PM

Current estimates are that in a normal year in the UK about 12000 people will die from flu. If the bird flu develops into a pandemic, which would happen if it mutates so that it is transmitted from human to human rather than from infected bird to human, that figure would be expected to go up to about 50,000 as a low figure, and maybe 700,000 as a high figure.

"There is also confusioin about whether the conventional flu jab will protect against avian flu. There is a fair chance that it will not, but the NHS wants to limit 'normal flu' in the population because if the bird flu mixes with a common strain it could produce a hybrid that could spark a pandemic." (Observer, 16th October)

"There is a fair chance that it will not" sounds to me like a other way of saying "there is a good chance that it will". I'm glad I've had my jab, anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 05:19 PM

Splott says:

Is this a press panic?

Yes, it clearly is. The lack of understanding of basic veterinary biology on the part of various contributers to this thread, suggests that it's a panic that may well spread to epidemic proportions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 06:14 PM

No point in panicking in any situation. It always makes things worse than they otherwise would be. But there is good reason to think it likely that there are real dangers up ahead, and that this virus could become transmissable from human to human, with a resulting pandemic.

That doesn't mean we'll all die from it, or that we'll all catch it - it's an unfortunate word since it rather sounds as if it did mean that. It actually just means that it is very widespread across a country or between countries.

But clearly it makes sense to take precautions, such as getting a flu jab if we can, and pushing the people who run our society into acting responsibly for once.

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 06:57 PM

The lack of understanding of basic veterinary biology

clearly it makes sense to take precautions, such as getting a flu jab

You will not be protected in anyway whatsoever against Avian flu by having the standard NHS Flu jab. That is something of the misunderstanding that I was trying to highlight

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 09:54 PM

It is believed by some people who ought to know that if Chinese farmers would keep their ducks away from their pigs, there would be no more flu at all. If that is really true, then Chinese farmers need some talking to.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: Having a car is like having a second body -- one that is always sick. :||

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: Metchosin
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 02:46 AM

Confusion still seems to remain....perhaps with me.

Here is one of the better explanations of Avian Flu and Swine Flu. And here's what I sort of gleened from it.

Wild fowl are natural asymptomatic carriers of Avian Flu (Influenza A). Slaughter all the swine in China or the world and one still won't get rid of Influenza A. Slaughter all migrating wild ducks and geese in the world.....well maybe.   

The problem with the Influenza A virus is that it can infect mammals including horses, pigs etc. and humans and it is capable of antigenic shift.

Because swine can "catch" human viruses, avian viruses and their own (swine flu), they make a good receptacle within which the Influenza A can do its antigenic shift stuff and produce a new strain with the genetic bits of more than one virus, thus creating a totally new strain of Influenza A, to which humans have no immunity.

From what I read of the above link, it would seem logical that if Influenza A can do an antigenic shift within pigs, that are carrying more than one virus, Influenza A would also be capable of doing an antigenic shift within humans, who, like swine, can "catch" avian viruses, swine viruses and their own (influenza B and C). I've not seen anything to contradict this, but if I've misunderstood, please correct me. Its late and my brain hurts.      

The British Columbia outbreak had nothing to do with raising poultry and pigs in close proximity, nor do I suspect, did the outbreak in Virginia or The Netherlands. However, Avian flu in domestic flocks still occurred in those regions and in some instances spread to humans. If those humans happened to have had other viruses also, could the Influenza A virus also have had the potential within those humans, to produce a new pandemic strain by the same process as thought to occur in swine?

Further, more of a problem in China would seem to be their use of antiviral drugs for poultry with subsequent development of drug resistant strains of the avian flu virus.....one more variable to add to the pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: Metchosin
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 03:30 AM

and........pigs don't fly.

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 07:22 AM

You will not be protected in anyway whatsoever against Avian flu by having the standard NHS Flu jab. That is something of the misunderstanding that I was trying to highlight (GUEST ED)

That quote I gave from The Observer suggests that that may not actually be true - but that even if it is, it reduces the likelihood of a pandemic: "There is also confusioin about whether the conventional flu jab will protect against avian flu. There is a fair chance that it will not, but the NHS wants to limit 'normal flu' in the population because if the bird flu mixes with a common strain it could produce a hybrid that could spark a pandemic." (Observer, 16th October)

Subject: RE: BS: Bird Flu,It`s not the birds fault
From: Metchosin
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 11:05 AM

Thanks McGrath, that resolves any questions I may have still have had regarding the equal likelihood of pandemic flu viruses developing from within both human and swine populations.