BS: Another war in the Middle East?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 10:41 AM

The conflict between the Zionists and Palestinians certainly did not suddenly start with the 1948 war.....it was the intention of the Zionists to establish their state in what is now Israel from the very beginning of the Zionist enterprise going back to pre World War One times when the Jewish population was less than 10% of the population of land.This made the Palestinian majority very apprehensive of what was to come and the deals being done over their heads by the Superpowers including the UK.
And the Palestinian people are still unwilling to be frogmarched out of their country and out of their own history and we can all see the political perversions that Israel/Zionism has taken to deal with the people they oppress in the West Bank,in Gaza and in Jerusalem not to mention within the borders of Israel itelf.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:06 PM

"we can all see the political perversions that Israel/Zionism has taken to deal with the people they oppress in the West Bank,in Gaza and in Jerusalem not to mention within the borders of Israel itelf."
- Guest Ifor.

Well then ifor, taking into account that the above was written by you, maybe you can answer BB's questions:

HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?

Perhaps you can explain why 16.2% Moslem segment of Israel's population chose to live as Israeli's rather than as Palestinians in the refugee camps. Could that have something to do with there being peace, stability, rule of law, prosperity living where they do as opposed to being kicked around like political footballs by foreign sponsored terrorist organisations ifor. There is not a single "leader" who purportedly "champions" the Palestinian cause that gives a flying fig about the Palestinian people - simple case of mind over matter ifor, the Arab leaders don't mind as long as they are raking off money hand over fist a-la Tosser Arafat, while the Palestinian people just simply don't matter. That is the root cause of their misery and penury - nothing whatsoever to do with the Israeli's, the 1,350,000 Arabs living in Israel are one thousand times better off than those Palestinians currently residing in Arab refugee camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:58 PM

"I could not disagree with what you have written more. The peace prosperity and well-being of the "Palestinians" can be had at the drop of a hat - all they have to do is acknowledge the right of existence of the Sovereign State of Israel."

Once again, propaganda. The Palestinians have not unilaterally attacked the right of existence of Israel but have criticized its role as a dominant dictatorship in the region.
There is no unanimity on such a position coming from Israel or Palestine (yet to be).
There is an excuse that assumes that the Palestinians can be painted evil with an Israeli brush to avoid this responsibility of meaningful dialogue. This has been replaced with a politicized Israeli governmental strategy which is tatamount to "ethnic cleansing".

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:48 PM

"The Palestinians have not unilaterally attacked the right of existence of Israel "

Actually, they have.


And I am still waiting for the answers to my questions:

JORDAN was established in 1923 as the ARAB (MOSLEM) PALESTINIAN HOMELAND. NO JEWS were permitted to reside there.


Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:35 PM

"The Palestinians have not unilaterally attacked the right of existence of Israel" - Stringsinger

You have got to be joking surely!!!!!

Have you read the Hamas Charter???

Have you read Hezbollah's "manifesto"???

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:50 PM

There seem to be some here who feel that anything the Arabs say is really a lie, it seems.

But some here, myself included, actually have listened to, and read what BOTH sides have said in the past, and looked at the actions of BOTH sides.


Still waiting, for answers to questions, and for Hezbollah to comply with ANY of the terms of the UN Mandated ceasefire in Lebenon- Israel has complied in full already.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 02:21 AM

There are a few other UN Resolutions that the Palestinian people have been waiting for the state of Israel to comply with, including one about withdrawing from the occupied territories.
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:59 AM

There are a few other UN Resolutions that the Israeli people have been waiting for the Palstinian people to comply with, including one about accepting the existance of the state of Israel.


Now, about those questions?


If we were to have Israel give 1000 acres to each Palestinain that fled, and then took back 1000 acres for each Jew driven out of an Arab nation, how much of the Middle East would be a part of Israel? THAT is what you would have to accept, if you want to follow the logic you have proposed.


Unless you ARE stating that Jews are not really human beings, and do not have the SAME rights you want to have for the Palestinains. IS THAT THE CASE??????

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:24 AM

ifor,

"it practiced wholesale ethnic cleansing"


Will you please tell me what you call the removal, by force and law, of the 820,000+ Jews who resided in Arab nations and were driven out?

And what about the Jews who were "encouraged" to leave by the Jordanians after 1948, when Jordan occupied the West Bank??? I have not heard you state how THEY should be given their homes back.


And will those Moslems in Ramallah give the land back to my Christian neighbors who were driven out when Jordan occupied the area?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:36 AM

back to the Arab- on - Arab bloodletting...

Fighting breaks out at 2nd Lebanon camp

By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 12 minutes ago



EIN EL-HILWEH CAMP, Lebanon - Violence sparked by a two-week old confrontation between the Lebanese army and al-Qaida inspired militants spread to a second Palestinian refugee camp in the southern part of the country, killing two soldiers, police said Monday.

After sporadic clashes Sunday evening, fighting picked up overnight and resumed briefly Monday morning as Islamic militants of the Jund al-Sham group fired rocket propelled grenades at the army on the edge of the southern Ein el-Hilweh camp, the largest of 12 Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon. The army fired back.

Police said five Lebanese soldiers were wounded in the Ein el-Hilweh clashes. One Jund al-Sham official was wounded and several houses belonging to members of the group were burned by army fire, Lebanese security and Palestinian officials said.

Jund al-Sham, which is based in Ein el-Hilweh, has claimed responsibility or been blamed for a number of bombings and gunbattles, mainly in Lebanon and       Syria. Syrian officials have portrayed Jund al-Sham, which is Arabic for Soldiers of historic Syria, as the most active militant group in their country. In Lebanon, the militants are believed to number in the dozens.

About 60 miles to the north along the Mediterranean Sea coast, another militant group,       Fatah Islam, continued its 16-day standoff against the army in the Nahr el-Bared Palestinian refugee camp. The sound of gunfire exchanges had tapered by the morning, suggesting the army was conducting pinpoint commando operations inside the camp.

The army brought reinforcements to Nahr el-Bared Monday. Two convoys of a total of 12 armored carriers were spotted heading toward the camp along with five trucks, each carrying 20 soldiers, and several small military vehicles.

The army has been pounding Fatah Islam positions at Nahr el-Bared since May 20 and has moved tanks and armored carriers into the camp in a push to crush the militants, who first appeared in Lebanon last fall and are suspected of having links to al-Qaida.

Many in Lebanon believed the army would be able to quickly crush Fatah Islam inside Nahr el-Bared, but after several days of fierce battles using artillery and tanks, the troops continued to face strong resistance.

The relentless bombardment at Nahr el-Bared, which is located on the outskirts of this port city, has angered Palestinians in some of Lebanon's 11 other refugee camps, a possible recipe for spreading violence.

Back at Ein el-Hilweh, where Jund al-Sham militants are believed to be trying to occupy the army and take the pressure off their Fatah Islam allies, a member of Asbat al-Ansar, another Islamic group that has refused to join the fight and is mediating an end to the confrontation, was killed in the clashes, the officials said. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not allowed to talk to the media.

Asbat al-Ansar, Arabic for the Partisans' League, is on the U.S. list of terrorist groups.

An official with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' moderate Fatah faction, said Palestinian groups would be meeting to try to ease the tensions at Ein el-Hilweh, blaming Islamic factions for blocking Fatah from going after Jund al-Sham.

"The camp cannot be taken hostage by 40 gangsters," said Col. Abu Walid Ashi, a Fatah spokesman at Ein el-Hilweh, referring to the Jund al-Sham militants.

"If they let us, we can finish them off in hours," he said. But he warned violence could increase if Fatah decided to make a move against the militants.

Similar attempts to reach a compromise have failed to quell the fighting up north at Nahr el-Bared. The Lebanese government has demanded that Fatah Islam surrender, but the militant group's deputy leader rejected the call in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.

"This is not only impossible, this is unthinkable. Our blood is cheaper than handing over our weapons and surrendering," Abu Hureira, a Lebanese whose real name is Shehab al-Qaddour, said Sunday. He also denied the army had made significant progress in its offensive.

"I am still in the same position since the war began," Abu Hureira said. "Our morals are high and the army did not make any advance."

Fatah Islam spokesman Abu Salim Taha, told the AP by cell phone that five Fatah Islam members, including a senior leader, have been killed and seven wounded since Friday, when the latest army offensive began.

A senior Lebanese army officer said nine Lebanese troops have been killed at Nahr el-Bared and about 40 others wounded since Friday. The body of one more soldier was retrieved Sunday.

The casualties raised the army's total death toll to 45 at Nahr el-Bared and two at Ein el-Hilweh since fighting erupted at the northern camp 16 days ago. At least 20 civilians and about 60 militants have also been killed in the northern Lebanon fighting, but casualties in the camp in the last four days were unknown because relief organizations were banned from entering.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 11:43 AM

The Palestinians were not at all responsible for the holocaust of European Jews in World War Two .That was caused by a barbaric European fascist ideology allied to the most vicious racism ever seen.The murder of six million Jews was the greatest crime the world has ever seen and took place on an industrial scale.
However,what happened to the Palestinian people has also been an International Crime.The expulsion of almost a million Palestinian in the "Nakbha" or catastrophe came after the massacre of Palestinian civilians at Deir Yassin and elsewhere as Palestinian and Israeli sources testify.
These Palestinians did not leave their homes willingly or happily as some zionists seem to take delight in suggesting.They were forced out by bombs,grenades , bullets and knives.What regular Israeli forces did not achieve was undertaken by Zionist murder gangs led by future politicians like Begin and Shamir.
Jacques De Reynier of the International Red Cross has left a vivid and ghastly account of the slaughter at Deir Yassin where some 350 villagers including young children were slaughtere by grenades and bullets or disembowelled by knives.This account is quoted at length in the book The Gun And The Olive Branch by David Hurst and published by London in 1977.
The expulsion of almost a million Palestinians formed the basis of the state of Israel.
The UN mediator sent to stem the exodus of Palestinian refugees out of the their homeland ,Count Bernadotte ,was assinated in Sept 1948 by members of the terror zinist Stern Gang ,one of whose members Yitzakh Shamir went on to become Prime Minister of Israel.Bernadotte had arrived in time to witness the theft of Palestinian of Palestinian houses,shops,orchards and land on a grand scale.Eighty percent of the land,fifty percent of citrus groves,ninety percent of olive groves and ten thousand shops were grabbed during and after the Nakbha.For challenging the Zionist propoganda it was decided he had to be killed ...and so he was.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:25 PM

Ifor,

"The Palestinians were not at all responsible for the holocaust of European Jews "

No-one has said that they were. But I am glad to see that there are some things we can agree on.


"The expulsion of almost a million Palestinian in the "Nakbha" or catastrophe came after the massacre of Palestinian civilians at Deir Yassin and elsewhere as Palestinian and Israeli sources testify.
These Palestinians did not leave their homes willingly or happily as some zionists seem to take delight in suggesting."

The numbers I have seen are about 640,000 Palestinians, AND 820,000 JEWS. NEITHER group left their homes willingly.



Now, HOW MANY Moslems NOW live in Israel? And HOW MANY JEWS in the Arab countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:32 PM

btw, post of 04 Jun 07 - 08:36 AM was mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:35 PM

It must be a facet of Hell to quote the Party Line all the time. Takes away one's ability to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:00 PM

You can take a horse to water
But you cant make it drink
You can take a Zionist to the place of slaughter
But you can't make him think
Deir Yassin
Qana
Beirut
Sabra
Shatilla
Jenin
Khan Younnis
Gaza



with hats off to Roy Harper for the reference
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:05 PM

Ifor,

Still waiting on my questions.

And I could give a list, as well.

Am I to presume that you only consider that Palestinians have any human rights, and Jews are some kind of sub-human animal in your view?? That is what I get from your comments and refusal to address any questions about the rights of Jews in this.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:10 PM

Ifor,

Since YOU mention Jenin, I have to presume you have problems with blue clickies and other advanced technology, in addition to your reading comprehension difficulty. So, I will post this for you:

Jenin comes to Lebanon. So where is the outcry?

Jonathan Kay, National Post
Published: Tuesday, May 29, 2007

Last week, the Lebanese army attacked a squalid Palestinian refugee camp that's become infested with Islamist suicide terrorists and guerilla fighters. On May 20, government troops surrounded the camp, with tanks and artillery pieces shelling it at close range. Army snipers gunned down anything that moved. At least 18 civilians were killed, and dozens more injured. Water and electricity were cut off. By week's end, much of the camp had been turned into deserted rubble. Thousands of terrified residents fleeing the camp reported harrowing stories of famished, parched families trapped in their basements.

How did the rest of the world react? The Arab League quickly condemned "the criminal and terrorist acts carried out by the terrorist group known as Fatah al-Islam," and vowed to "give its full support to the efforts of the army and the Lebanese government." EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana also condemned Fatah al-Islam, and declared Europe's "support" for Lebanon. And the UN Security Council called the actions of Fatah al-Islam "an unacceptable attack" on Lebanon's sovereignty. As for the Western media, most outlets ignored the story following the first flurry of news reports.

At this point, please indulge me by re-reading the first paragraph of this column -- except this time, substitute the world "Israeli" for "Lebanese" in the first sentence. Let's imagine what the world's reaction would be if the ongoing siege were taking place in Gaza or the West Bank instead of the Nahr al Bared refugee camp on the outskirts of Tripoli, Lebanon.

****First of all, a flood of foreign journalists would descend on the camp to document Israel's cruelty and barbarism, and the story would remain front page news to this day. Al-Jazeera would be a 24/7 montage of grieving mothers swearing revenge on the Zionist butchers, and rumours would swirl of mass graves and poison gas. The Arab League, EU and United Nations would condemn Israeli aggression -- as would the editorial board of The New York Times. The Independent would dispatch Robert Fisk to embed with Fatah al-Islam. And the newspaper's cartoonist, Dave Brown, would produce another award-winning rendition of his signature theme: Jews eating Palestinian babies.

Actually, we don't need to speculate: What I have just written is exactly what happened when the Israeli army invaded the Jenin refugee camp to root out terrorists in April, 2002, a battle that was similar in scale to this month's siege at Nahr al Bared. (At Jenin, 52 refugee camp residents were killed -- most of them gunmen, according to Human Rights Watch. At Nahr al Bared, the figure is 45 and climbing.) The main difference between the two sieges is that Israel's army put its troops at far greater risk by invading Jenin with infantry -- whereas the less humane Lebanese army has simply pummelled Nahr al Bared with explosives from a distance. Jews apparently care a lot more about saving Palestinian civilians than do Lebanese soldiers.

For years, we have been told that Palestinian suffering and "humiliation" is at the root of the Middle East conflict, as well as the Western-Muslim clash of civilizations more generally. This is nonsense: The 200,000-plus Palestinian refugees who live in Lebanese camps are treated worse than dogs -- with no access to decent schools or good jobs -- and no one in the Arab world cares a whit. In fact, many Arabs seem to embrace the same blind anti-Palestinian hatred of which Israel is typically accused. When Lebanese armoured personnel carriers rolled through Tripoli on May 20, they got a standing ovation from local residents. "We wish the government would destroy the whole camp and the rest of the camps," one local told The New York Times. "Nothing good comes out of the Palestinians."

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:53 PM

"If we were to have Israel give 1000 acres to each Palestinain that fled, and then took back 1000 acres for each Jew driven out of an Arab nation, how much of the Middle East would be a part of Israel? THAT is what you would have to accept, if you want to follow the logic you have proposed."

Not quite. Its your logic that is flawed.

While Israel is responsible for the Palestinians driven out of Israel, the Palestinians are not responsible for the Jews driven out of any other Arab nation.

Obviously, you think the Palestinians should be punished for the crimes of all Arabs. Thats a bit like thinking that all non-Jews are Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:59 PM

"While Israel is responsible for the Palestinians driven out of Israel"

False statement. The ARAB NATIONS ( Arab League et al) TOLD them to leave: The ones that did are the refugees, the ones that did NOT leave, and accepted the Israeli invitations TO REMAIN and live in peace are the ones that are still IN ISRAEL, being killed by those illegal ( By UN and other international law) area bombardment rockets that you are so quiet about...

So, HOW MANY Moslems NOW live in Israel? And HOW MANY JEWS now live in the Arab countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:02 PM

"Obviously, you think the Palestinians should be punished for the crimes of all Arabs."


Since YOU have yet to accept that the ARABS did not resettle the Palestinians displaced in 1948, while the Israelis HAVE resettled the Jews driven out of Arab nations, it is obvious that you think the Israelis should be punished for the crimes of Arabs against the Palestinians..

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:09 PM

As far as I can see the arguments used by the Zionists to justify their slaughter ,imprisonment and humiliation of the Palestinians is a completely racist one and has something in common with how the nazis saw their slavic and Polish neighbours...underpeople.
Of course the Israeli military could teach the Lebanese army a great deal about how to attack a crowded refugee camp...it had had plenty of practice attacking Sabra ,Shatilla snd Jenin...and many others.

How many civilians,old men,women and children were massacred at the Beirut camps despite worthless security guarantees...the number was in the thousands?!
And the killers were given the green light to go in to do the wet work with their knives by that old butcher himself ... Sharon .
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:27 PM

Ifor,

Still waiting on my questions.

You mention Jenin- So you will ask the Palestinians to bring out the war criminals who ( in violation of the Geneva Conventions) put the military unit in the camp? And you will commend the Israelis who went in the camp, at greater risk, to AVOID civilian casualties (UNLIKE THE ARAB LEBONESE)? Or are you saying that it is OK for Arabs to kill Palestinians?????????????????

"Jews apparently care a lot more about saving Palestinian civilians than do Lebanese soldiers."

Try reading posts every once in a while, and addressing the words there instead of the next item on your list of things to mention.


Did I say I was still waiting for your answers to my questions??

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:10 PM

"The six-day war changed the Palestinians too. They had been scattered by the fighting that accompanied Israel's founding in 1948. Some fled beyond Palestine; others became citizens of the Jewish state or lived under Egypt in Gaza and Jordan in the West Bank. The 1967 war reunited them under Israeli control and so sharpened their own thwarted hunger for statehood. When, decades later, Egypt and Jordan did make peace with Israel, the Palestinians did not recover Gaza and the West Bank. This has left some 4m Palestinians desperate for independence but in a confined land choked by Jewish settlements—along with the fences, checkpoints and all the hardships and indignities of military occupation."

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9225670

bb - The Arabs who accepted the invitation to "remain and live in peace" or those who have been "re-settled" (under occupation) are also paying the price:

"According to a report submitted to the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination by Adalah, The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, there are 17 Israeli laws that are discriminatory against Palestinians. These laws create a reality in which Palestinian citizens are deprived of basic educational, religious, social, and economic rights."

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/pubs/20001222ib.html

bb - You make it sound like the Arabs in Israel are living there with equal rights and those who are living in Palestine have made the choice of their own free will. Will you ever believe that the Israeli political machinery is ruthless and ego-centric? Probably not. Its easier for you to twist the truth and wallow in insecurity and hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:10 PM

"Its easier for you to twist the truth and wallow in insecurity and hatred. "


That seems to be Ifor and YOUR problem- I am STILL waiting for the answers to my questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:54 AM

bb - There is a reason I haven't bothered to answer your question, "HOW MANY Moslems NOW live in Israel? And HOW MANY JEWS now live in the Arab countries?"

IT IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT!

The Moslems that now live in Israel are living as 2nd class citizens in their country which is under foreign occupation. Such a treat!

We are not talking about those who have re-settled, we are talking about those who are living in refugee camps created by the 6-day war. Their homes were once in the land now called Israel. At least the Jews who fled Arab countries didn't end up in a tent in the desert.

If you want to talk about re-settlement, lets count the number of European Jews who have re-settled in Israel and displaced the Palestinians that have been living in tents for the last forty years.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:07 AM

Any Mudcat readers who would like to see a first photo report of life under Israeli occupation might want to look at the website Rafah Report which is excellent and written by a Rafah resident living under siege and military terror.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:43 AM

Thanks, al. Here's the link:

http://rafah.virtualactivism.net/news/special.htm

I honestly cannot believe that anyone would condone the actions of the Israeli military. Whoever supports Israeli Zionists, supports inhumanity. Any Jew who sits idly by and allows this to happen, to innocent people, without protest, should be ashamed. By these actions, Jewish people cannot claim to be God's chosen people. God is righteous.

Never forget.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:40 AM

"Whoever supports Israeli Zionists, supports inhumanity. Any Jew who sits idly by and allows this to happen, to innocent people, without protest, should be ashamed."

Conversely, anyone who supports Hamas, supports inhumanity. Any Atrab who sits idly by and allows this to happen, to innocent people, without protest, should be ashamed.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:59 AM

"God is righteous."

God is dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:06 AM

Bottom line, regardless of which side you support in the Middle East mess is that Israel will not disappear willingly. An armed attempt to have them disappear (see Hamas Charter) will result in such devastation of the Middle East it will be uninhabitable by people for centuries if not thousands of year. So the crap about who's right and who's wrong comes to mean little. We all might be better to put our minds on how to achieve a peace settlement rather than quote, re-quote and re-quote again the histrionics. The sides have their views and neither has changed in the years I've seen this argued on Mudcat, or anywhere else for that matter. In fact, this thread is a microcosm of the real situation. The sides have no way to begin talking, so there is consistent war.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:40 AM

That is the most sensible commentary I have heard on this subject on the Mudcat yet. Bravo Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 01:41 PM

I am all in favour of talks but it would a major step forward for the Israelis to stop bombing Gaza,arrsting Palestinians ministers and elected representatives and shooting dead children as they have been doing this past month.
Unfortunately I dont expect this to happen.The more the Israelis crack down the more Palestinians have turned to Hamas a militant Islamic grpup in what was once quite a secular community.
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:06 PM

Good to read a sensible post, Peace. Yes, a ceasefire while a peace settlement is achieved would be an excellent start. Hate never cured anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:16 PM

I think that ALL of us agree that a ceasefire would be a good thing.

So where are the demands for Hamas to STOP the area bombardment rocket attacks on civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 03:12 PM

back to the topic of THIS thread- although no-one here seems to care about dead Moslems, unless they can blame the Israelis for doing the killing.



Lebanese troops pound refugee camp

POSTED: 8:48 a.m. EDT, June 5, 2007

Story Highlights• Lebanese troops pound Islamic fighters besieged in Palestinian refugee camp
• 7 Fatah Islam members surrender to mainstream Fatah Palestinian faction
• Heavy gunfire in Nahr el-Bared camp as Lebanese army shells militant hideouts
• At least 5,000 refugees and several hundred militants still inside the camp

TRIPOLI, Lebanon (AP) -- Lebanese troops pounded Islamic militants hiding in a Palestinian refugee camp in northern Lebanon on Tuesday, on the fifth straight day of the military's sustained assault to crush the Fatah Islam fighters.

Meanwhile, seven Fatah Islam members surrendered to the mainstream Palestinian faction of Fatah in the southern parts of the besieged Nahr el-Bared refugee camp near the northern port city of Tripoli, a Palestinian commander said.

It was the first sign that a major Palestinian faction -- in this case the Fatah group of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas -- responded to calls by Lebanese authorities to actively campaign against the al Qaeda inspired Fatah Islam.

From his base in the southern Ein el-Hilweh Palestinian camp, Fatah commander Maj. Gen. Khaled Aref told The Associated Press that the seven in Nahr el-Bared came over to Fatah positions there, handed over their weapons and pledged to stay out of the fighting.

Aref also said that Fatah was trying to convince Palestinian residents of the camp who had sided with the militants to abandon the fight wreaking destruction on their homes.

After an overnight lull, fighting in Nahr el-Bared resumed Tuesday, with exchanges of heavy gunfire and sporadic explosions ringing out from the camp. Troops shelled militants' hideouts with artillery fire, sending up plumes of white and gray smoke.

Since Friday, when the army launched its offensive to drive the militants out, periods of lull and fierce fighting have alternated at the Nahr el-Bared camp and its outskirts.

The army stepped up its offensive against the militants, who embrace an al Qaeda-style doctrine, rejected government demands to surrender and vowed to fight to the death.

More than 100 people have been reported dead since the fighting first broke out May 20 between the army and Fatah Islam. It is the worst internal violence since the end of Lebanon's 1975-90 civil war.

In the Ein el-Hilweh camp -- which is Lebanon's single largest Palestinian camp -- Islamic militants clashed with Lebanese troops on Monday, threatening to open a new flashpoint that could complicate the military effort to defeat Fatah Islam.

Two government soldiers and a militant were reported killed in the fighting at Ein el-Hilweh, in the southern city of Sidon, which began when the Jund al-Sham group attacked army outposts late Sunday.

The assault was seen as an attempt by Jund al-Sham to ease military pressure on their allies Fatah Islam, battered by army attacks in Nahr el-Bared.

But on Tuesday, Ein el-Hilweh remained calm. A security force made up of Palestinian Islamic factions that was set up to prevent further Jund al-Sham frictions with the army, was expected to deploy in the camp's neighborhoods that were the scene of Monday's clashes.

The bombardment of Nahr el-Bared has angered Palestinians in some of Lebanon's 11 other refugee camps and there were fears that fighting could spread.

Also Monday, a bomb exploded in an empty bus parked in the Christian neighborhood of Bouchrieh east of Beirut, injuring 10 passers-by, officials said.

There was no claim of responsibility, but a string of bombings has hit the capital area since the fighting began at Nahr el-Bared.

Ten soldiers have been killed and 44 wounded at Nahr el-Bared since Friday. Army casualties since the fighting began stood at 45 dead at Nahr el-Bared and two at Ein el-Hilweh. About 60 Fatah Islam militants were also reported killed.

At least 20 civilians have been reported dead at Nahr el-Bared, but recent civilian casualties were unknown.

About 5,000 Palestinian refugees -- and a couple of hundred militants -- are believed to be still in Nahr el-Bared.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:12 PM

To Bearded Bruce
Methinks there is too much mock horror in your posting.

On the scale of things the Israeli air,sea and land attack on Lebanon last year dwarfed the present conflict and   destroyed much of its infrastructure and slaughtered thousands, mostly civilians ,who were blown up sheltering in homes or strafed and rocketed while fleeing in cars.

The Lebanese army then barely did anything to defend the country but has since gained heart [and American weapons ] to take on a very small fundamentalist group while smashing up a refugee camp and killing more civilians in the process.

This is part of the wider geo political game being played by the USA and I think is aimed at ultimately breaking Syria.
Indymedia UK carried this week an excellent article claiming that the Israelis were the likely killers of Hariri whose murder last year sparked off much of the present unrest.
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:27 PM

Methinks you are interested only in the slaughter of all Israelis, ifor. That is what methinks. You see nothing wrong when Israelis are killed. Only when Arabs are killed. Give your racism a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:54 PM

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 05:07 PM

I have seldom seen a condemnation of Hamas on the ifor (International Fellowship of Reconciliation) site. Yet they say they dislike all violence. Wonder why that is? Any answers anyone? Israel gets it lots, but not the other groups of bad guys in the Midlle East. WHY is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 05:51 PM

All I can say to you Peace is that you must have lived a very,very sheltered life.You seem to be truely astounded that anyone could support the Palestinians in their unequal conflict with Israel.

Quite frankly you need to get out a bit more and find out more about the crisis in Israel and the roots and nature of the ongoing conflict.

There are many millions out in the world who now support the Palestinians .They have seen the terrible things that have been done to them over many decades and support their demand for justice.

They support the Right of Return for Palestinian refugees and their children and grandchildren who are still suffering in the camps.

They support the demand that Israel ends its illegal occupation of the West Bank which has never been part of Israel but has now been settled by paramilitary zionist settler thugs who think nothing of abusing or harassing the Palestinians.

They support the removal of the disgusting Apartheid Wall which separates villages from their hinterlands and makes daily life humiliating and intolerable for the Palestinians.This is a wall built on Palestinian land.
They support the demand for the Israeli attacks on besieged Gaza to end.Gaza,where hundreds of children have been killed or wounded and tens of thousands terrorised by Israeli shelling ,rocket attacks and tank fire.
They are appalled by the Amnesty and HumanRights Watch reports on the appalling treatment meted out by the IDF against Palestinian civilians
They recognise that there will not be peace for Israelis or Palestinians until the Palestinians are treated with respect and with justice.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 06:42 PM

That doesn't answer my question.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:05 PM

BTW, I am still waiting for answers to my questions...

HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems are living in Israel?


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:17 PM

Jews are not humans to him. Read his posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:16 AM

Peace
You really are talking such nonsense.I have tried to explain to you that millions across the world are opposed to Zionism and why.Those millions include many Jewish people who are keenly aware of the injustices meted out to the Palestinians by the IDF or the paramilitary settler thugs.
Those opposed to the oppression of Palestinians include Noam Chomsky,Israeli conscripts ho will not fight in the occupied territories,Ronnie Kasrils the Jewish South African minister,Israeli Women in Black who bear witness to the Palestinian suffering and many many more.
All this guff you hurl my way is truely pathetic.
It reminds me of the lad who writes the website "Rafah Reports "and who chronicles the dangerous
life in his camp.....he gets massive amounts of insults on his hate message board from Zionist thugs from across the world.
The road to peace will not be an easy one but it will not include the continuation of failed policies of oppression,imprisonment and militarism.
The Israeli political scene is bankrupt and corrupt with the head of Israelistate himself facing rape charges....there needs to be another path to peace.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:24 AM

I don't read your posts anymore, Ifor. You do not care about human rights. You have shown that time and time again with your posts in which you slam Israel at every turn with never a bad word for the other aggressors in the war. Until such time as you recognize the Palestinians and their various terror organizations are as much at fault for crappy diplomacy as are the Israelis, you will never be anything except another Jew hater as far as I am concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 02:03 AM

To Peace
For someone who does not read my posts any more you have done a pretty nifty job in replying to them.But do remember that this website is not called the Mudcat Zionist site.
Heddwch
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 09:32 AM

Nice try, ifor. And you remember this is not a site to whitewash terrorists of any nationality.
Sholem
Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 10:21 AM

In fact, Ifor, I'll go you one better. If you are willing to make the 'heddwch' you mentioned, lets try to find a way to open dialogue between Israel and Palestine. Histrionics will get us nowhere. But greater things have happened from the efforts of common people like us. Give it a thought and let me know.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,Amotz Asa-El
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 02:54 PM

The Six Days War, which broke out 40 years ago this week and left the Arab world, the Jewish people and the international community stunned, still boggles the mind.

The fighting -- in which Israel debilitated three armies and conquered the West Bank, Gaza, the Sinai, the Golan and ancient Jerusalem in less than a week -- has made Israel's enemies distort its causes and effects. Here are the facts, the way I recall them as a third-grader in Jerusalem.

As Independence Day ended, news broke out that the Egyptian army had crossed the Sinai Peninsula and camped along the Israeli border. By the weekend, we were besieged, as Egypt blockaded the Red Sea and expelled United Nations peacekeepers from Gaza, while Jordan and Syria deployed along our northern and eastern borders. One hundred million people, armed, trained and inspired by the Soviet Union, were ganging up on a country the size of New Jersey with a population smaller than Tennessee's.

It was a casus belli by any dictionary definition. Yet today Israel's detractors conveniently begin the story from the actual fighting of June 1967, which indeed began when we Israelis extracted ourselves from the shooting range where we were to be sitting targets and pre-empted the marksman aiming his barrel into our collective forehead. Israel initiated but only tactically. The strategic initiative -- the brazen, unprovoked choice to wage war -- was Arab.

No rewritten history will make Israelis forget the course of events as we experienced them. We won't forget the anxiety on the faces of the adults -- mostly Holocaust survivors -- as war approached. We won't forget how every day we learned of another diplomatic failure to undo the siege, how we filled sandbags and placed them on windowsills to the sound of Hebrew broadcasts from Cairo Radio that promised to "throw the Jews into the sea" -- which was meant, and taken, literally.

Today, the ultimate anti-Israeli slogan shared by British liberals, Russian fascists, Gazan zealots, Iranian Mullahs and Lebanese pseudo-patriots is "end the occupation." Gullible Westerners conclude that Israel's enemies merely want it tamed, that characters such as Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, Hassan Nassrallah or Haled Mash'al are merely challenging its policies, not its right to live.

But they are. As they themselves concede when asked explicitly enough, to them not only the conquests of '67, but even Tel Aviv is "occupied Palestine," just as to them all U.N. resolutions about the Mideast are binding except the original one, the one that said that not only the Palestinians, but the Jews, too, deserve a state.

Had it not been for the obsessive urge to erase the Jewish state, there would have been no occupation to decry today. For the problem with the Six Days War in the eyes of Israel's enemies is not the occupation that followed it nor, of course, the belligerency that preceded it, but the victory that defined it and constituted one of the swiftest blows liberty ever dealt autocracy.

Had the occupation been their problem with post-1967 Israel, Israel's enemies would have even celebrated its successive election of leaders such as Rabin, Barak, Sharon and Olmert who each sought to end the occupation. Sad to say, all four saw Israel's enemies prove unreconstructed despite them, as the newly unoccupied Gaza's shelling of Israel, within its internationally recognized borders, demonstrates daily.

There's nothing new about this tunnel vision. In 1967 Israel offered a land-for-peace deal, but the Arab states announced they would never make peace, recognize or even just talk with Israel. With that kind of rigidity, the Arab states maneuvered the Palestinians into Israeli occupation. Then as now, they could have chosen peace.

A lot has changed since 1967.

Egypt and Jordan made peace with Israel, the East Bloc unraveled, and a million Soviet Jews arrived in Israel. However, in Tehran, Beirut, Damascus and Gaza, the blind hatred is alive and well, even if it now cleverly manipulates Western disdain for such terms as "occupation."

Had a passer-by wondered in May 1967, "Why are you filling sandbags?" we would have answered: "We have no choice." Four decades on, when you hear Israel's enemies decry occupation, remember: They have a choice, they can have peace, yet they have war, and the reason they have war in 2007 is the same reason they had it in 1967: It's what they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:16 PM

Unless you are he who is a frequent contributor and past editor (?) to the Jerusalem Post, I don't think it right to use the name Amotz Asa-El. No offense.