BS: Whales TEACHING whales?

Subject: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: gnu
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:39 PM

I can't understand how some people can infers or deduce something from absolutely nothing. How can anyone say that the whale was teaching the others? Oh my, Greepeace and all the other twits will have a field day with this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: gnu
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:41 PM

Maybe that whale wouldn't have made that typo?

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:46 PM

Well, how do you reckon the second whale came up with the same strategy? Coincidence? As the article mentions, chimps have also been known to spread new tactics from member to member of the same species. You might enjoy (or barf from) looking up the "100th Monkey" essay. Not sure how many instances are actually cited but I don't see why you think no learning--at least by imitating success for food -- is involved.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:52 PM

You don't think whales teach other whales stuff? I've seen cats teach stuff to their young. Whales are a lot smarter than cats.

Also, I've seen an octopus learn from watching another octopus. Octopi are smart. I think it's fair to assume that whales are smarter than octopi.

Chimps and gorillas who are able to communicate using human sign language teach that language to other chimps and gorillas.

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:54 PM

The cats I live with teach each other things all the time. Especially annoying things; especially if they're food related. That doesn't take a lot of brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: gnu
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:15 PM

Teaching does not equal learning. Apparently, I was not clear on that. Wait... yes, I was... that's why I started the thread. Hmmmm.... perhaps these whales are smarter than some of the humans?

The whale that was catching the gulls was doing just that... catching the gulls. Nowhere does the article state that it put up signs, telephoned other whales, wrote a book about gull baiting techniques or whatever.

The fact that the others watched and learned is neat. Wayyyy cool. But to infer that this whale taught the others is ludicrous... a human trait... called jumping to delusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:30 PM

Teaching is not an exclusively human trait. When cats do it, it is purposeful teaching. I know... I've watched them do it. If cats are smart enough to purposefully teach, certainly whales are.

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:49 PM

I think you're nit-picking, gnu. If one whale knows how to catch gulls and the others observe this behavior, then they're learning from the first whale. It seems that the whale expert who says the one whale taught the others is in a better position to reach this conclusion than those of us who simply read the report on the findings and who might question them.

That's not to say that no one should question science. It needs that continual dialog to remain viable. But what in that sequence of events don't you find believable? The fact that animals can teach and learn? For a long time humans in many cultures have been certain that they are superior to "dumb animals" in so many ways. Some find it off-putting to find that we have smart company in the animal kingdom. Just look at anyone who has tried to keep squirrels out of their bird feeders.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: Crystal
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:00 PM

I expect that whales are up there with duck billed Platapi and elephant fish as creatures with the most complex brains in the planet. We humans are apparently number five or something!

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:21 PM

The term has always been "a school of whales" hasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:40 PM

A this recent article concerning chimps may be of interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:43 PM

Try again

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:50 PM

And, it does seem that whales talk and have a language.....who really knows?

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:18 PM

Documentation of Japanese monkeys teaching new behaviours -- a rebuttal to Kesey's "Hundredth Monkey" but a good one in its own right -- can be found at this page (http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC09/Myers.htm).

A

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:34 PM

A group of whales is a pod, MGoH. Fish travel in schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:45 PM

And fish that have been eaten by whales are called lunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:50 PM

Except when they yack them back up on the surface. Then it's seagull bait.

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:52 PM

And the base for many really expensive perfumes.

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:32 AM

Hehehehelarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:39 AM

I think it was Robin Williams who said, "That guy is slicker than whale shit."

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:32 AM

Okay... I just don't know why... to me it's plain and simple. All the other whales knew how to do this and THEY were teaching Nummy how to do it. You know, coaching him, giving him encouragement, critiquing his technique. Obvious to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:45 AM

Why shouldn't whales learn? Do you really think that learning is confined to humans? That there is an unbridgeable gulf between us and lower creation that sets us specially apart?

Foxes learn- they have adapted their habitat from the countryside to towns within the last hundred years- far too fast for the change to have come about by genetic mutation and natural selection. The notorious blue tit milk bottle heist can only have come about since the introduction of milk bottles. Or are you saying that blue tits are genetically predisposed (pre- adapted) to stealing milk?

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:11 AM

Hehehe. Who has more fun than people, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 08:02 AM

Lots of collective terms for whales, Cluin, and school is one of them - so is pod, and also cete, gam and herd.

See here.

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:54 PM

Nits and tits. And I am a twit. Whale oil beef hooked.

Spock... can.. you... shed... some.... light on this matter? And... make... the crew of... the Café understand?

Well, Captain, by all logic and scientific rigor, yeer fooked. They are only human.

Right... then... fillet... that order. Bring... er... ead... round... ta the weather... and... warp mind.

Enrage.

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:57 PM

The teenybopper was explaining to the whale how she hangs out at the mall, talking about boys and cool music. Sort of like a clique, she saidf.

"Oh." the whale replied. "Ipod".


Sorry.....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 08:38 PM

Okay.... maybe this scientist was at a competition where each whale, in turn, would upchuck some fish and try to get a gull. Maybe the "observers" were actually judges who were scoring the "chucker" on time, delivery, poise in the hunt, finesse in the kill, and artistic spitting out of the feathers. Like, whale rodeo, right, man, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Whales TEACHING whales?
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:31 PM

Maybe they were frat whales and found a new game.

Yeah, McGrath, but I don't accept that. Whales are mammals and have been called fish too long by the ignorant anti-cetic; they deserve their own collective term.   ;)