BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?

Subject: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 09:00 AM

So the overwhelming emphasis amongst the defeated Dems seems to be (and I have heard this phrase repeated over and over in the past 48 hours) "to find the message that works."

Everyone agrees the problems we face, and the solutions we need offer, can't be reduced to 30 or 60 second soundbytes.

So the pols then put most of their efforts, year in and year out because they are always fundraising, to crafting the message that appeals to the most "potential likely voters".

How is a grassroots constituency, a loyal citizen opposition, to be empowered, when the public debate is being controlled by the two party brand identity advertising?

Conventional organizing strategies used by the unions and the party loyalists hasn't been working for years, as can be measured by lower participation and bleeding to third parties or voters non-aligned with any party. The nation's voters are fewer and fewer each year, and polarization of those voters is becomes more and more pronounced, until we see the election results of 2000 and 2002.

The unions haven't been able to get their membership to vote in as large a bloc since Reagan stole so many of them away, and busted many of the rest. The most solid voting bloc is still the African American vote, which can still be counted on to turn out over 80% Dem in any election. But like every other group, they have poor voter turnout too.

I find it interesting that the only solutions being offered by Dems is to fire the Old Guard leadership, find the message that works, and carry on business as usual. No mention whatsoever of bringing people back to the party. It looks like a real good bet to say the party ain't going to be welcoming the left back into the fold any time soon.

So what are those of us on the progressive left supposed to do? We can't get any traction on the third party side, and we can't get back into the Dem party. So what options that does that leave to make effective change and not only make our voices heard and votes count, but see positive action taken on OUR agenda?

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 09:14 AM

What's wrong is that it has nothing to do with music whatsoever

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 09:47 AM

I can't see a picture!

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Sonnet
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 09:53 AM

I think it depicts a scene from a fairy tale, Geoff! More crow than quack.

JMcS

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: leprechaun
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 10:51 AM

I guess it's pretty sad for you that you progressive lefts have very little chance of mucking up the Republican party like you've done the Democrats. So where do you turn? Third party? Fat chance. Maybe you'll have to resort to what other powerless, disenfranchised goofballs the world over have done, and become terrorists. If you can't be right, be loud.

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: leprechaun
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 10:51 AM

I'm sorry. Did that come across as smug?

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Mudlark
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 12:11 PM

Oh, thank god, another political post. I thought it might be a comment on my recently posted profile photo...

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 12:28 PM

"I find it interesting that the only solutions being offered by Dems is to fire the Old Guard leadership, find the message that works, and carry on business as usual. No mention whatsoever of bringing people back to the party. It looks like a real good bet to say the party ain't going to be welcoming the left back into the fold any time soon."

Guest, I have a different take on this than those who posted above. I think it's a valid question, one that needs to be addressed by the Democrat party.

I get a LOT of Democratic party literature- from now on I'm going to return it to them with a line suggesting that they rethink their positions and separate their party's line from that of the Republican party. I would rather they go out on a limb from time to time- at least it would prove that they are THINKING.

I'm not very leftist, only leftist enough to want, to demand, fresh thinking as to what goals are worthy. Right now I'm very afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: DougR
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 01:01 PM

I have an idea! Why don't you "Progressive Leftists" start a NEW Party? You could call it "The Progressive Leftists Party!"

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 01:16 PM

Would that be a better party than the -Progressively-More-to-the-Right Party? :)

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Bert
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 01:21 PM

Since the Dem's recent performance has been so pitiful that they couldn't even manage to beat Shrub and his cronies, perhaps a better name would be "The None Left Party"

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 01:47 PM

Well, danged, GUEST, I ain't got a clue how the Dems is gonna fix themselves, but Ebbie's thoughts are close to my own. I bolted the Dems during Clinton's Repub. administration in favor of the Green Party and it seems thats where the "progressives" are hanging out while the right wing crapola shakes itself out of the Dems, which it must.

Now, as fir my own opinion, I'd like to see the Repubs with 75 Senate seats and 25 seats held by progessive Dems. That would suit me just fine if those Dems were indeed standing up for the working man and against corportazation, privatization, globalization pushing a foriegn policy that was pro-human, inclusive and not driven by greed.

Now, the Dems *DO* have to make some funemental changes if they are to survive and agreeing with Repubs ain't changin'. We'll just have to see if they are gonna become a party of leadersship. If so they are going to have to go out on a limb on campiagn finace reform and some system of universal health care for starters. Then their going to have to fight the good fight to keep the bucks in the public school system rather than let the Repub. bleed it with vouchers that only help the wealthy parents. They are gonna have to come up with some alternatives to the Repub ideas on Social Security, such as subsidized retiremnt accounts where lower earners would have their contributions subsidized on a sliding scale but not allow the Repubs to just let folks take the dough and go out and by stocks.

Yeah, the Dems have their work cut out for them. And if the progressives win out and decide to stand up for something, they won't have a hard time finding us. It ain't like we don't keep up with stuff. The progressives are paying attention.

Not much of an answer but somewhere in there are some pieces of the puzzle...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: leprechaun
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 12:01 PM

You could call it "Party On, Dudes!"

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 12:09 PM

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it was about the picture someone sent me of Dubya on a school visit holding a book upside down.

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: CraigS
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 05:53 PM

Here's a message -

DON'T VOTE - IT ONLY ENCOURAGES POLITICS!

Time alone will tell if it works.

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 12:03 AM

As Utah once told me, "If elections could really change anything, they'd be illegal."

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 09:57 AM

CraigS,

I love the sentiment behind the cliche you posted, and I often use it myself.

The thing is though, we've seen over and over again that the ONLY result of the majority of eligible voters not voting, is Republican majorities and one party rule.

The current campaign for the US House leadership is interesting, in that a consensus does finally seem to be forming that centrist appeasement strategies have failed abysmally for Democrats, but have worked really well for the right wing Republican party, where "compassionate conservatism" neturalized the Republican moderates, who have been ostracized forever it seems.

Clinton was a bit of anomaly, and I think won in Democrat name only. Which was why the radical right wing Republicans did everything in their power to destroy him. He proved that Republican centristism and moderation worked really well. What Clinton's domestic agenda represented was moderate to conservative Republican ideas. Clinton won by turning the Democratic party hard to the right. Bush, however, hasn't had to do that with his party, because the number of true Republican moderates are now so small and inconsequential.

The extremism of the right is what wins elections when the majority of eligible voters don't turn out, as happened in the midterm election when the Gingrich Republicans swept into the House.

I say Clinton was a Democratic anomaly because he truly was. He was never able to create unity within the party, nor did his presidential victories ever have a coattail effect--rather, it was just the opposite effect in many local races.

Could it possibly be that the Democratic party might now wake up and smell the coffee, and realize they won't ever win, much less stand for anything meaningful, if they don't rejoin the democratic wing to the Democratic party? I really do think that if Democrats clarified and magnified substantially different visions for the country that reflects the liberal and progressive agenda that the party once DID represent, they could start winning AND moving the country back to the center. As it is, as long as the right wing Republican agenda keeps winning, regardless of whether people call it the Republican Party, Reform Party, or Southern Democrat political agenda, all of the country is going to continue losing.

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 11:31 AM

I hope, Guest, that you are right. I hope Pelosi is elected Minority Leader in the House, and convinces the Democratic Party to swing all the way to the left, as you feel it should.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: leprechaun
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 11:44 AM

Yeah. Sure that's the ticket. That would work real good!

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 12:18 PM

May I ask why DougR and leprechaun, you have self-identified themselves as being allied with the Republican Party, feel qualified to comment upon what the Democrats need to do to get elected?

Gentleman, while I appreciate your right to contribute, I question the sincerety of your motivation for doing so in threads on Democratic Party strategy. I also question your obvious lack of knowledge of and experience with either the Democratic Party or the progressive left movement in the US.

But it is quite clear to me that you never miss an opporunity to blindlessly attack, attack, attack in nearly every political thread. Why do you do that? Why do you feel a need to come into a discussion among Democrats and progressives, and taunt, attack, and otherwise rudely attempt to disrupt the conversation when you have no meaningful, sincere positive contribution to make?

It is akin to Ford mechanics going into threads on where Chevy mechanics are discussing how to repair Chevys, just to bitch about what losers Chevy owners are. Not exactly well mannered, or constructive, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 01:34 PM

I will reluctantly reply to your post, Guest. The reluctance stems from the fact that you enter and post freely, but make no effort to become a part of this community.

As to why those of us who do not agree with your viewpoint post, this forum has always been a place that embraces all viewpoints. This is not a Democratic, Republican, Socialist, whatever, forum.

If you take my last post as an attack that's up to you. If asked why I believe it would be a good thing for the Decocratic Party to identify itself totally with the left wing, I would say this: for the first time voters would have a CLEAR choice between left and right and all spectrums in between. I would think that you, and like thinkers would favor this too.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 01:42 PM

I do favor such distinctions being made DougR. What I am questioning, is your motives for coming into threads discussion Democratic Party and progressive left agendas and strategies, for what seems to me a bad mannered attempt to interject your Republican views.

It isn't that you don't have the right to voice them wherever and whenever you want. My point is, I find your choices of where and when to do it in this forum, to be ah, ill considered at best.

Your intentions, which of course I will never know, as well as your motives, don't seem to be indiciative of the sort of "hail fellow, well met" sort that makes for positive online exchanges. It seems you, and certain others of the Republican persuasion, delight in being the spoilers of many a conversation among Democrats and progressive leftists here.

I really am trying my best to understand why some of you feel the need to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 03:20 PM

Here's a start of what I want on this earth and which I feel needs to be addressed by my political party: (I wonder how far it is to the closest hospitable {and probably uninhabited!} planet?) :)

o The recognition that this earth is our home and we trash it at our peril.

o That jobs can NOT be our first concern- if you have no place to live, you can't get a job. So we must take care of our home FIRST. That something is expensive to implement is NOT the issue. It is, finally, what money is for.

o That the quality of the air we all breathe, the water we all drink, the food we all eat is of rightful concern to all citizens of the earth.

o The acknowledgment that all citizens of the earth are alike- the need for safety, the right to our hopes and fears for ourselves and those dear to us, the need to actualize our dreams, to work toward goals, our reaction to pain, sadness, joy and hope- all, ALL are the same, affected differently only by our cultures, climates and histories. My brother IS myself. Therefore, we must proceed from a basic and profound respect for ourselves and all other peoples.

o The expectation that the people who aspire to lead and whom we choose to be in that position are governed by these principles that we accept as seemly and proper.

o The expectation that those who fail us, and themselves, will be turned out of that influential position upon discovery.

o The recognition and acceptance of the fact that there is room for argument and debate as to how to actualize these qualities and principles we profess and that that is good. The need is NOT for everyone to agree on how to implement the principles- it is only needful that the goal be clearly defined and understood.

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 03:41 PM

I don't often agree with DougR, but he is right here. (1) I don't see how someone who posts as GUEST has much right to complain about someone injecting their voice at a time and place of their choosing; (2) Who says this is a Democratic thread? It seems to me to be a thread about third parties (see GUEST's first post). This suggests that anyone can get involved. When you have 30% of the eligible voters voting, that suggests to me that there are a lot of people awaiting something else, probably including people not unlike DougR and leprechaun. I know a lot of conservatives who find bloated capitalism repellant, and are worried about threats to freedom from a militarized state. Why give up on them prematurely, comrade?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: leprechaun
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 05:20 PM

For the record, I'm a registered Democrat since I was eighteen. I'm just no longer proud of the fact, and I haven't gotten around to changing it. Because what would I change it to? In my profession, we take it in the shorts from both sides. Elect Republicans and we get laws to help protect innocents from predatory criminals, but they want to pay us peanuts and ravage our retiremant plans. Elect Democrats and they give us a decent wage packet, but they seem to go out of their way to give criminals free range.

I tune in on these anti-Republican hate-fests because I find it extremely offensive when people attack Bush the way they do in this forum.

I found it offensive when people attacked Clinton.

I don't agree with everything George W Bush does, but he is absolutely not the evil sociopath the people in this forum regularly paint him to be.

Neither was Clinton. He was just a disappointment.

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 05:50 PM

Doug - Referring to an early post of yours on this thread...   Political parties are the problem, not the solution. It won't help one bit for "progressive leftists" or any other supposed bloc of people to form yet another political party.

Arguing about the relative merits of the existing parties is hardly more relevant at this point than still arguing about whether England should be ruled by the House of Lancaster or the House of York.

Political parties (and the way they are funded) ARE the problem. Particularly LARGE political parties. The USA is particularly unfortunate in that it is dominated by just 2 of them. The only worse scenario is to be dominated by just one party, as in China, for example. That is the ultimate triumph of false propaganda and misapplied power.

Political parties do not serve humanity, they serve themselves...and the major lobbyists who fund them. The rest is smoke and mirrors, designed to win the next election. Your public instinctively knows this, and that is exactly why fewer and fewer people are voting in each succeeding decade. They know they've been had, and they know that their vote is virtually meaningless...under the existing system.

I still vote...but only for ONE reason...so you fellows who still believe in the system can't say to me "You didn't vote? Then what gives you the right to complain?" I know my vote won't change things. LOL! It's a game, Doug, played by rich and powerful people at your expense, and if you can't see that...you've been had.

Actually, even if you can see it you've still been had anyway...

*(By the way, this problem I just described with political parties is the same problem that has occurred historically with labour unions, churches, and other entrenched power structures when they grew old, large, and corrupt. They started serving themselves at the expense of the general public. And for what? Money and power.)

The only thing that can change it is an absolutely radical change in the way power is apportioned out in society. A completely new philosophy put into action. A revolution more profound than the one that occurred in 1776. But not a revolution of the gun.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 06:29 PM

The majority of the people who voted in this past election voted for Republicans. But, the majority of people eligible to vote didn't vote for anyone.

The Democrats need to quit aping the Republican agenda - trying to pry a handful of votes away from the Republican side. They will never win by trying to out-Republican the Republicans. They need to adopt an agenda that would give the folks who aren't voting a good reason to go to the polls and vote for Democratic candidates. If voting was required in this country, like it is in some countries, the Democrats would probably win every election hands-down.

Face it, the only two issues where the Republicans and Democrats are uniformly at odds are abortion and gun control. In the overall scheme of things, neither of these issues really means diddley-squat. If people want abortions and guns they're going to get them regardless of what the law says.

If the Democrats would just come out for the de-criminalization of marijuana I personally know at least a hundred people who have never voted in their lives that would be beating down the courthouse doors to go register. The Dems are just too blind to see that while such an issue might lose them the votes of a few current voters it would attract millions of new voters to their side.

The Democratic Party of 2002 is wearing blinders that keep it from seeing anything left of the center.

Bruce

PS: To leprechaun and any others who are offended by Bush-bashing.

For me, it has nothing to do with the fact that he's President of the U.S. I still respect the office of the President. I was not a great fan of Mr. Clinton but just hearing Mr. Bush's voice on the radio makes me see red. I simply cannot stand the man. I wouldn't like him if he were the school janitor, much less the President. I know that the polls say he is immensely popular, but being popular doesn't necessarily make one right. Hitler and Mussolini were immensely popular in their times too.

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 07:43 PM

Bruce - your point is well-taken. If the Democrats had the guts to actually have a genuinely leftist policy then they would provide a real alternative to the Republicans, and you'd have something a lot closer to a real election every 2 years. As it is, all they offer is lukewarm Republicanism, half-baked, regurgitated, and served up as if to a baby bird...with petty and minor differences in what is (by any except USA terms) a conservative policy which pretends to be something different, but isn't. All they can come up with is "We're nicer than they are..."

It's a pathetic performance, but I suspect it is largely due to the fact that the Democrats are funded by pretty much the same powerful backroom interests who fund the Republicans....which was part of my original point.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 07:52 PM

But LH, grassroots activism CAN beat big money. Wellstone proved that in 1990.

At the end of the day, it is all about who can get the most voters to the polls. Historically, that was the Democrats, before the soft money corruption took over. But that is exactly how Wellstone got elected. He mobilized a substantial progressive left army of grassroots activists to actually get out of the house, and do the work. And that is just what it is going to take to take the country back from the right wing extremists who currently control it.

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 11:53 PM

Yes Art, but Utah is a wobbly. Of course he is also correct.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 12:59 AM

L. H., in your 7:43 PM post you seem to be siding with my suggestion that the Demos go far left. Yet in the post before that, you say it really doesn't matter because "we have been had anyway." Which do you truly feel.

I think Guest is a troll and just wants to stir the pot. He will not do so at my expense in this thread.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 01:56 AM

Well, Doug, I'm like most other people I guess...my feelings fluctuate a bit on complex issues. Hmmmm... Lemme think. I do feel that in both the USA and Canada (and many other countries) that the mainstream political parties have simply abandoned the public and are playing a game called "let's get elected". In order to do that, they will say anything and do anything that they think will get votes...but will generally betray many of those promises once elected (for instance: George Bush the elder saying "read my lips...NO MORE TAXES!"...didn't turn out that way at all. Our Canadian politicians have similarly lied to us over and over again...and I mean ALL the parties. They lie to get elected, then go ahead and do what they wanted to do in the first place, but neglected to tell us about.)

So, that's my cynical assessment of the present state of "democracy".

On the other hand, as you know, I do somewhat like the Democrats better than the Republicans (though I don't trust either one of them as far as I could throw a Lear Jet).

I would like to think the Democrats could come up with some kind of genuine leftist agenda somewhat like F.D.R. did...but I think there's virtually NO chance they will. They figure it's too risky. They want to appeal to everybody, and they only way you can even try to do that is lie through your teeth or be totally wishy-washy and gutless.

The Democrats are like the Canadian Liberal Party...they resemble a marshmallow...little or no real principles at all, but an uncanny ability to temporarily fit any given aperture by altering their shape accordingly. (I'm speaking of the party machine in general...but not of specific individuals when I say that.)

The Republicans are a bit more predictable, because they have more of a real, consistent philosophy... Sadly enough, it's a philosophy I disagree with almost totally. :-)

I don't know what to do about it, Doug. Like I said, I vote primarily just so that various soreheads can't say to me "If ya didn't vote, ya shouldn't complain", but there's no party out there that I have confidence in, except a couple of teeny little ones that can't possibly get elected, cos they don't have enough money, and people don't know enough about them. They are the ones I have voted for in the last 3 or 4 elections.

I wish that there were no political parties anymore at all. I do not think it's a workable system as it stands.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 02:13 AM

Sorry. Bush elder quote should have been "Read my lips...NO NEW TAXES!" Not even the Republicans would dare say "No MORE taxes!" :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 02:25 AM

I find GUEST's postings to be interesting, informed, and polite. His/her point of view is essentially caring and sincere, and I for one applaud GUEST's efforts and intentions.

The consistant use of negativity in politics these days is appalling.

I feel confident and stand firm with my assumption that the sway is currently rewarding negativity in politics, and consequently, our day to day life. This is disgusting.

When the most fun people have anymore is harrassing others... fear becomes a plaything. More importantly, and this is a fundimental difference between Clinton and the new Rulers, the political use of fear as a tool for ------------ (fill in the blank). Clinton used a great deal of intellect and research (you can sit on your sex jokes asshole...) and did a great deal of good. He regularly offered solutions that were carefully crafted and well intended. His programs, economically speaking, worked as "best for everyone" legislation.He paid off the debt, and accumulated a surplus. Fear was not used as a universal source of power and "prestige". Now it is. A good economy is of no use to fascism. So,... the "who cares" attitude shown by the current administration is really a form of "wishful thinking"...

We deserve better... and as the world watches... let's get our dirty clothes all together, cause we're probably all going to be taken to the cleaners... change anyone?

ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Troll
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 07:12 AM

Thomas, please explain what you mean by..."Fear was not used as a universal source of power and "prestige". Now it is."

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:21 AM

The use of "scare" tactics for political gain. War and recession work "well" if your goal is to take over and misdirect... The massacre on Sept. 11 was, and is still being used to further political ends. I believe this to be a betrayal of the 'public trust'... that Democracy requires. The 'thrashing' of Clinton for his casual sex, and his consequent humiliation, means that you and I are suspect too. Casual sex, which is rampant in our country, trumps all good things... "so don't do good things". Pulling the plug on the economy ushered in a favorable climate for take-overs, buy offs, and a more 'available' (and scared) younger generation. Some of the people who are benifiting, are probably GWB's 'benefactors'.

An interesting, albeit extreme, example of the dynamics at work here are stark in the country of Columbia.

I believe the public trust is being violated.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 12:40 PM

I agree, Thomas. That is the primary reason why I don't like the politics of the Right (or conservatives)...their main means of motivating people is by the old Fear/Patriotic-fervour technique beloved of all military aggressors and dictators. This is the very means Saddam Hussein uses to bolster his power in Iraq, and it was the means used by Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Ayatollah Kohmeini and all the rest of the vicious lot.

The Right also uses another important motivation...Greed...in that they always tell people that they are going to put more money in their pockets. But they lie. The money goes only to the wealthy few at the very top...and those are the people who provide the campaign funding!

I'll say this though...the Right in North America has the courage of its convictions (although they are wrong-headed ones), while the Liberal forces do not. That is why the Right has been doing better at the polls.

That and Fear.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 03:55 PM

No, L.H., I don't agree. The reason conservatives have had more success at the polls than the liberals, is more people in the United States think conservatively than they do liberal.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 05:30 PM

Little Hawk: I very rearly disagree with you if ever BUT it don't take a lot of "courage" to be on the right in this country since all ya gotta do is repeat the bumper sticker positions taht have been fed ya' by Boss Hog and the Gang. Heck, they own *everything* and now I beginning to think that they own a lot of folks *thinking*.

Okay, Boss Hog owns the mean os production, he owns the media, he owns most of the money and he lends it to folks to buy the junk that his PR folk convince his workers they need and consequently his workers are too busy trying to pay back the company store that they're working longer and harder than anytime in last 60 years and this doesn't provide a lot of time for *actual thought*. Hmmmmm? Bad combination... and worse news for progressives. The deck is now firmly stacked against progressives.

Now, just for good measure against thinking Boss Hogs new educational push is more toward rote memory than thinking with test passing the goal of educators. Hmmmmmmm, Part B.

And just another thought. Just in case the workin' man tries to make a break for freedom, Boss Hog's credit card companies have gotten their boy to push thru legislation that prevents the potential escapee from escaping the monster that got him jammed in the first place. At least in boxing, the ref calls off the bou7t when one fighter is about to get his butt killed. Hmmmmmmm, Part C.

Now we look at Boss Hogs health care system and insurance companies. All stacked against the working man but like I said, he's too busy working his brains out trying to keep up with the credit cards and the *trappings* of *well being* (SUVS, big houses, etc.) And if you get sick, forget it, Boss Hog gonna cancell your butt and you'll die poor.

So, "courage" to support the company line and goosesteppin' behind Boss Hogs and his PR folks. Nah...

I knew the day would come when I would find something that I didn't agree with ya , LH, but I love ya', brother and this is more like splittin' hairs.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Troll
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 05:38 AM

S' funny, Thomas. I always thought Clinton was pilloried for the lies he told about his sexual misadventures both to the courts and to the nation rather than for having them in the first place.
Just goes to show how your memory can play tricks on you.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 01:40 PM

Doug, you are ABSOLUTELY right!!! LOL! Why couldn't I see something that simple when it was right in front of me? :>)

Bobert - Yeah, brother. Actually, what I meant was that the Republicans have a somewhat better idea of what they stand for than do the Democrats. At least I think that's the case... What they stand for may be based on ignorance, but at least they think they know what it is.

Now radicals like you and I, we know what we stand for too, but the Democratic Party is a world away from where we stand.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 04:00 PM

All the recent polls I have seen about the things that interest the American people -- environment, pensions, the economy have nothing to do with the Republican agenda de jour -- anti-abortion, repealing estate taxes, etc. This hardly suggests that more people in America think conservatively than liberally. It suggests that people with lots of money and power think conservatively, and can make their agenda the agenda. That is all that really counts. And the crucial poll, of course, the vote, all 30% of the electorate.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 04:17 PM

Perhaps you have been reading the wrong polls, Peter T. At least from my point of view.

You may not have heard, but the Repulicans in that 30% turnout election won the majority in the House, and in the Senate. Not all Republicans consider themselves conservatives, of course, and not all Democrats consider themselves liberal. But more people who (at least in my opinion) consider themselves conservatives voted Republican than voted Democrat.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 04:33 PM

Anybody see The Daily Show last Wednesday, where Jon Stewart says (sic):

"The American people have given their mandate to the Republican Party, for war with Iraq, corporate malfeasance, tax breaks for the wealthy, higher prescription drug prices, gutting Social Security...what the hell did you think you were voting for, people"?

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 07:29 PM

Good point, Peter! Political elections are won the same way products are sold...by ubiquitous and constant advertising. He who can do the most persuasive advertising to the largest number of "consumers" wins.

Does the public buy a product with an unknown brand name, or do they buy Gap clothing and Coke? Are Gap clothing and Coke inherently superior? NO! But people have heard of them.

The American public simply buys what they are told to buy, and votes for whom they are told to vote...and the few rich at the top are the ones who fund that advertising...and cash in on the sales.

That equals = a dictatorship by the wealthy under the facade of a modern democracy.

And that is the real answer, Doug. It's tragic, it's sad, but it's real.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What's Wrong With This Picture?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:18 PM

L.H.: Coke? Gap? What are they? Some kind of drug, a space between teeth? You sure you meant Coke and Gap? :>)

DougR