BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:33 PM

What would Sun Tzu say about that strategy, Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:38 PM

I believe he advocated scorched earth given certain conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:41 PM

"All warfare is based on deception."

We don't have to DO it; we just have to convince the 'enemy' that we WOULD do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:45 PM

Scorched earth is one thing nuclear annihilation is an other order of magnitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:46 PM

Yes. You are right.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:47 PM

"We don't have to DO it; we just have to convince the 'enemy' that we WOULD do it."

Well there goes that plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:54 PM

The thing is, much like MAD (which IMO was responsible for there being no nuclear war back when), they'd just never know for sure. Any other way of 'scorched earth' would allow them to rebuild--and we know how they love doing that. So, nukes. In a fight we'd be decimated very quickly. Our military could buy us enough time to detonate. Let 'em know that if they insist on playing, we're gonna pitch.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:08 PM

Is Canada not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty ?

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:09 PM

To quote Bush (most likely): It's just a God damned piece of paper!

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:11 PM

Good one Bruce, we can throw that back into his face.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:14 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:42 PM

bobad -

The U.S. is the biggest violator of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Israel is a close second.

But funny you should mention it...

...thats the justification the U.S. will use for waging war against Iran.

What hypocrites!

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:43 PM

Bobad: I've had a change of heart and mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:44 PM

. . . let's make it thermonukes and stop foolin' around.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:54 PM

12 ways of better living thru thermonukes:

12. SeaFair needs more noise and louder explosions. Those Blue Angels are real wusses. Get a couple of detonations and mushroom clouds going. That ought to stop traffic on I-90, the 520 bridge, I-5, and 405! And if the spectacle doesn't stop 'em, the electromagnetic pulse will!

#
11. The University District Chamber of Commerce could purchase a couple of thermonuclear-powered leaf blowers to clear the annoying street youth from sidewalks and make the area more conducive to commerce.

#
10. Why irradiate food when you can irradiate the land used to grow it? That'll protect our produce from micro-organisms. And imagine those awe- inspiring, glowing fields of microwave popcorn! "Kansas: Land of Majestic Sunsets."

#
9. Dental hygiene.

#
8. Use one to destroy the Kingdome. Save millions now! (Why wait for the Mariners to leave?)

#
7. Impress chicks.

#
6. Removes stains thousands of times faster than ordinary detergent. Gets clothes, buildings, and everything within miles of the epicenter whiter than white!

#
5. Skateboarding with a difference.

#
4. Provide energy so cheap and plentiful it won't even have to be mete-- whoops, never mind.

#
3. Washington voters took vital weaponry last fall out of the hands of our state's bear and big cat hunters. It's time to give some meaningful weapons back.

#
2. REAL clearcutting. No underbrush, no second growth.

#
1. Seattle can't build those annoying little traffic circles in the middle of intersections fast enough. Miles-wide craters would do a much better job of slowing down traffic. And landscaping would be a cinch.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:30 PM

Bobert:

Read the NYT for facts and then cry me a river.

Do you have known liks to Al-quaeda? are calling foreign countries? If not then you have nothing to worry about.

Does your neighbor have known links to Al-quaedaand is he calling foreign countries? would you like to know if he is planning a terrorist attack? Well tough shit cause tha constitution protects his right to plan a terrorist attack in private according to you.

Maybe a mind reader like yourself should be in charge of anti terrorisim.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:33 PM

Did Israel ever sign and ratify the Treaty? For that matter, did the US ever ratify it?

We Can Do It- 'Cause We's BIG

In France they used to sniff for romance. With US, it's the money...


"The US has always been somewhat impatient with international non-proliferation agreements. Despite a 1992 self-imposed moratorium, in the past six years the States has conducted 19 nuclear tests, dismissing them as sub-critical and therefore acceptable.

"But the Bush administration has upped the nuclear ante considerably. It plans another sub-critical nuclear test for 2004, and has authorized the nation's weapons labs to resume full-on nuclear testing with as little as six-months' notice.

"And that's bad news for the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. The UN-sponsored organization was set up in 1996 to ban nuclear-test explosions and to establish a corresponding global monitoring system. But there's a catch - the treaty can't go into effect until all 44 of the nuclear-capable countries that joined in 1996 have ratified it, a prospect looking increasingly unlikely as holdouts point to US intransigence as justification for their own burgeoning nuclear weapons programs.

"Take Iran, which as one of the original signatories, permitted five monitoring stations to be built on its soil. In January 2002, soon after the US began withholding funds from the CTBT's on-site inspection program, Iran began withholding monitoring data from the international community, thus rendering its stations useless.

"With America pulling back from the CTBT, other countries have been expected to join Iran in withdrawing their support as well. According to Daryl Kimball of the US-based arms Control Association, "The US is risking that possibility, and that may indeed be what the US wants."

"After all, Armageddon is big business stateside. The US budget for nuclear-weapon activities in fiscal 2004 tops $6 billion, over half a billion more than in 2003. Expenditures for nuclear-test readiness alone surged by 39% in the same period, and in a major policy shift, the Bush administration is poised to seek Congressional authorization for "usable" nuclear weapons."

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: GUEST,A
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:53 AM

Bobert, you are sounding more amd more like a moron. Give examples, not YOUR conclusions.

Greg F, you find fault with all the Repub Presidents. Any opinion on WJC when he bombed the crap out of the Falklands WITHOUT any approval from Congress or the UN?

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 09:12 AM

India, Pakistan and Israel are not bound by the NPT as they are not signatories

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 09:25 AM

Ah, yesss- One More Time!- the tried and true NeoCon/Rebub "Mommy Mommy, but look what Johnnie did" defense.

Lo siento mucho, pal, but this ain't about Bill Clinton.

Don't you folks ever tire of employing the arguments and "debating tactics" of eight-year-olds?

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 09:27 AM

Toles, as usual was ahead of the curve.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/toles.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: GUEST,A
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:21 AM

Greg F, its' about the actions of all Presidents. I neither agreed nor disagreed with your post. I was just curious as to what you would eliminate a Prez who is as guilty as the ones you mentioned.

I am not a "rebub" and am starting to think that perhaps a lot of the
minority are ignorant also.

Why not reply to the inquiry? Oh yes, you still may include the insulting behavior. I don't have a problem with that as your posts would dimnish in quantity without them.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: GUEST,A
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:50 AM

I have been sitting here thinking about the Costitution;

1. Have you ever given thought to the present Congress, BOTH sides of the aisle, coming up with a similar document. Heaven (or whatever) help us.

2. Bobert, the Constitution is not as definitive as you would like to believe. It is an outline and a dam'n fine one at that. Maybe the phrase "He (meaning the Prez) shall from time to time give to the Congress information of the State of the Union, recommend to their consideration such measures as he shall judge necssary and expedient.

Soooo, he did not consider some things necessary which is the Prez perogative. He do go to a select group 12 times about the subject so as to keep them apprised.

3. The Constitution also stipulates that the "the Congress shall assemble at least once in every year; and such meeting shall be on the first Monday of December". Later amended to the 3rd day of January. Wll, they are meeting at least that.

Show me where it says the Prez can't do what he did.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:23 AM

Where did I miss the historical information that Bill Clinton bombed the Falklands?

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:28 AM

I have the same question Ebbie has.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: DougR
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:33 AM

I don't believe Bill bombed the Falklands. He bombed a baby food factory or some such in Afghanstan as I recall.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: GUEST,A
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:47 AM

Hmmnnn - have no idea how the Falklands showed up there. That was about 17 0r 18 years before Serbia.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:53 AM

It happens. The world has been so filled with war that keeping the 'who did what to whom' straight is almost impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: PeteBoom
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 03:55 PM

"...do solemnly swear... to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States..."

"Amendment IV. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable seaches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describling the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

"Amendment IX. The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X. THe powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

Seems some folks want "original meaning" and "strict construction" only when it suits their purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 05:05 PM

"...have no idea how the Falklands showed up there." Guest/A

That's some typo.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:15 PM

Ahhhh, toi both A and Old Guy,

I think the 4th Amendment purdy mush stops the president from spying on Americans...

Ain't no read 'um and weep about it... Purdy straight foraward language...

Now to Wit" Bush says that the 4th amendment don't count in times of "war"... Well, he and Gonzalez are both lawyers so did it ecver occur to either of them that techincally and legally, the United States is ***not*** actually at war...

The Conngressional Resolution authorized Bush to use force, if all other remedies failed but did not issue a declaration of war...

Hmmmmmm?

Bush claims that he can violate the constitution because he says we are at war yet no war has been declared????

Tell you what, folks, this is one danged slippery slope that Bush is taking the country down... It has hurt our reputation around the world... Now, not only can Bush have anyone in the world kidnapped and rendered (tortored) but he can snoop on any one he wants to...

And I have sickening feeling that there's another shoe gettin'
ready to drop...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:15 PM

in a climate like this, Top Secret becomes about covering up mistakes, violations of people's rights, offensive blunders and corrupt liaisons with war criminals. Top Secret conducting illegal and unfounded investigations, following the whims of people who are unaccountable and vindictive.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:16 PM

I have the same feeling, Bobert. Who knows what else he/they have been up to. Now that some people are developing a bit more backbone it is getting safer to speak up. I would guess there are people out there who have not dared to reveal various things before. So we may be in for even more scandal and embarrassment and further loss of credibility.

However, better the devil you know than the one you don't- so the sooner everything gets publicised the better.

Did you see the story today about Tom DeLay's lavish lifestyle? All funded by election campaign donors, lobbyists and ultimately, taxpayers.

If the president is as dumb as I suspect, my guess is that only now is he beginning to wonder what in the world is happening to his safe little life.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:58 PM

Did you hear Bush in his Saturday press conference, Ebbie???

He was like a spoiled kid chastizing his piers... The "King George" references that some have made are startling accurate... What scares me is that enough bonehead Amercians will buy into this "tough talk" to not realize that Bush has broken the law, or if they do realize it, they will give him the benefit of the doubt because Bush declares that the U.S. is at war...

Problem with this logic is that the U.S.Constituion does not allow the executive the freedom to declare war... Only Congress can do that!!!

Yeah, this is purdy scarey because the United Sates is no longer and educated and enlightened society so there's more folks who know about car racing than they know about our Consitution so if Bush wants to pump out his chest and say "I'm not a crook" then there are fewer folks around who last heard those words who would have any idea if Buish is a crook or not a crook...

Thomas Jefferson warned that the future of our democracy was dependent on an informed electorate... I don't htink he meant knowing who just won the NASCAR points race...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:20 PM

I'm not surprised that the USA is spying on its citizens. But I am surprised that Bush admits that he authorized that spying.

But I pray that this blatant disregard for our constitution causes folks to finally wake up to the danger we have of losing our nation built on laws and protected by laws to neocons whose only interests are money and power.

I hope that more and more people join me in singing
{to the tune of "Day-O":

"Bushie
Bushie-ie
Impeachment's comin and it won't be long.
Finally
Finally
Impeachment's comin and it won't be long."

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:27 PM

For those interested in how this story of domestic spying is being covered in papers throughout the USA, see this dailykos thread by BarbinMD Spying: How's it playing in Peoria?

Here's an editorial from the [Bergen] Record {New Jersey} which was quoted in that thread:

"President Bush has ignored a bedrock principle in his decision to spy on people in the United States without search warrants: This nation is governed by the rule of law.

Not the whim of whoever happens to be in the White House - but the law.

The revelation that this administration has spied without search warrants on perhaps thousands of people in this country since Sept. 11 is only the latest example of its willingness to skirt the law and even the Constitution. Its indefinite detentions of people without formal charges or access to attorneys is another prime example.

But in spying on American citizens, residents and visitors without court approval, the administration is pushing the limits of the law further than we've seen.

Congress must conduct an investigation of the surveillance program, as Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter, R-Pa., and some of his Democratic and Republican colleagues have demanded"

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:51 PM

John Dean, Nixon's lawyer, said today that Bush is the first president (that he knows of) to ever admit to an impeachable offense. Senators (democrats, so far, of course) who were privy to some of the briefings which were supposed to make all this spying legal are saying that nothing that THEY heard made clear what Bush was actually authorizing. There are procedures for getting a court order for surveillance, but this was essentially an end run around court orders and Congressional oversight, defended by little more than "we need to use every means at out disposal to 'protect ourselves against terrorism'."

   Watching (press secretary) Scott McClellan tap dance around a reporter's questions about 'exactly' how congress had 'oversight' in the matter would have been pretty funny if it was not so serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 09:14 PM

Published on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 by the New York Times
F.B.I. Watched Activist Groups, New Files Show
by Eric Lichtblau

WASHINGTON - Counterterrorism agents at the Federal Bureau of Investigation have conducted numerous surveillance and intelligence-gathering operations that involved, at least indirectly, groups active in causes as diverse as the environment, animal cruelty and poverty relief, newly disclosed agency records show.
F.B.I. officials said Monday that their investigators had no interest in monitoring political or social activities and that any investigations that touched on advocacy groups were driven by evidence of criminal or violent activity at public protests and in other settings.

After the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, John Ashcroft, who was then attorney general, loosened restrictions on the F.B.I.'s investigative powers, giving the bureau greater ability to visit and monitor Web sites, mosques and other public entities in developing terrorism leads. The bureau has used that authority to investigate not only groups with suspected ties to foreign terrorists, but also protest groups suspected of having links to violent or disruptive activities.
But the documents, coming after the Bush administration's confirmation that President Bush had authorized some spying without warrants in fighting terrorism, prompted charges from civil rights advocates that the government had improperly blurred the line between terrorism and acts of civil disobedience and lawful protest.

One F.B.I. document indicates that agents in Indianapolis planned to conduct surveillance as part of a "Vegan Community Project." Another document talks of the Catholic Workers group's "semi-communistic ideology." A third indicates the bureau's interest in determining the location of a protest over llama fur planned by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. The documents, provided to The New York Times over the past week, came as part of a series of Freedom of Information Act lawsuits brought by the American Civil Liberties Union. For more than a year, the A.C.L.U. has been seeking access to information in F.B.I. files on about 150 protest and social groups that it says may have been improperly monitored.

The F.B.I. had previously turned over a small number of documents on antiwar groups, showing the agency's interest in investigating possible anarchist or violent links in connection with antiwar protests and demonstrations in advance of the 2004 political conventions. And earlier this month, the A.C.L.U.'s Colorado chapter released similar documents involving, among other things, people protesting logging practices at a lumber industry gathering in 2002.
The latest batch of documents, parts of which the A.C.L.U. plans to release publicly on Tuesday, totals more than 2,300 pages and centers on references in internal files to a handful of groups, including PETA, the environmental group Greenpeace and the Catholic Workers group, which promotes antipoverty efforts and social causes.

Many of the investigative documents turned over by the bureau are heavily edited, making it difficult or impossible to determine the full context of the references and why the F.B.I. may have been discussing events like a PETA protest. F.B.I. officials say many of the references may be much more benign than they seem to civil rights advocates, adding that the documents offer an incomplete and sometimes misleading snapshot of the bureau's activities.

"Just being referenced in an F.B.I. file is not tantamount to being the subject of an investigation," said John Miller, a spokesman for the bureau. "The F.B.I. does not target individuals or organizations for investigation based on their political beliefs," Mr. Miller said. "Everything we do is carefully promulgated by federal law, Justice Department guidelines and the F.B.I.'s own rules."

A.C.L.U officials said the latest batch of documents released by the F.B.I. indicated the agency's interest in a broader array of activist and protest groups than they had previously thought. In light of other recent disclosures about domestic surveillance activities by the National Security Agency and military intelligence units, the A.C.L.U. said the documents reflected a pattern of overreaching by the Bush administration. "It's clear that this administration has engaged every possible agency, from the Pentagon to N.S.A. to the F.B.I., to engage in spying on Americans," said Ann Beeson, associate legal director for the A.C.L.U. "You look at these documents," Ms. Beeson said, "and you think, wow, we have really returned to the days of J. Edgar Hoover, when you see in F.B.I. files that they're talking about a group like the Catholic Workers league as having a communist ideology."

The documents indicate that in some cases, the F.B.I. has used employees, interns and other confidential informants within groups like PETA and Greenpeace to develop leads on potential criminal activity and has downloaded material from the groups' Web sites, in addition to monitoring their protests. In the case of Greenpeace, which is known for highly publicized acts of civil disobedience like the boarding of cargo ships to unfurl protest banners, the files indicate that the F.B.I. investigated possible financial ties between its members and militant groups like the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front. These networks, which have no declared leaders and are only loosely organized, have been described by the F.B.I. in Congressional testimony as "extremist special interest groups" whose cells engage in violent or other illegal acts, making them "a serious domestic terrorist threat."

In testimony last year, John E. Lewis, deputy assistant director of the counterterrorism division, said the F.B.I. estimated that in the past 10 years such groups had engaged in more than 1,000 criminal acts causing more than $100 million in damage. When the F.B.I. investigates evidence of possible violence or criminal disruptions at protests and other events, those investigations are routinely handled by agents within the bureau's counterterrorism division. But the groups mentioned in the newly disclosed F.B.I. files questioned both the propriety of characterizing such investigations as related to "terrorism" and the necessity of diverting counterterrorism personnel from more pressing investigations.

"The fact that we're even mentioned in the F.B.I. files in connection with terrorism is really troubling," said Tom Wetterer, general counsel for Greenpeace. "There's no property damage or physical injury caused in our activities, and under any definition of terrorism, we'd take issue with that."

Jeff Kerr, general counsel for PETA, rejected the suggestion in some F.B.I. files that the animal rights group had financial ties to militant groups, and said he, too, was troubled by his group's inclusion in the files.

"It's shocking and it's outrageous," Mr. Kerr said. "And to me, it's an abuse of power by the F.B.I. when groups like Greenpeace and PETA are basically being punished for their social activism."

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 09:41 PM

freda...(and some others) would it be too much to ask for something other than LONG copy & pastes? Give a synopsis and a **LINK**...if it is worthy and interesting, I'll go read it! Big glops of someone else's words are not much of a discussion.

I understand the temptation....but I'd like to hear from YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: GUEST,A
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 09:51 PM

Ebbie, I never suggested it was a typo. (Falklands) All the battles seem to run together. Of course, that one did not involve the US.


And thanks, Bill D. I NEVER read those long posts. In the case of the NY Time, I have probably already scanned it and with the bias of a single source, it is not worth discussing.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:08 PM

sorry Bill, i've been getting a little carried away by the breaking news!!

fred

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:09 PM

Here's another dailykos thread that focus on the issue of Bush's administration spying on US citizens:
The Emerging Story Behind the Wiretaps by remove office

Check out this comment from that thread:

"How many are personally affected? (none / 0)

If it turns out that what we're really talking about is a massive data mining program--like Carnivore or Echelon, but bigger, more state-of-the-art and more invasive--the list of targets could include most Americans.

Think about it. How many Americans have visited made overseas calls or engaged in electronic communications with other countries? At first, folks might assume this covers only Arabs e-mailing Riyadh. In fact, it might include senior couples booking anniversary trips to England...right-wing bloggers checking up on Al Jezeera...bank customers transferred to call centers in Bangalore...who knows?

The panic suggests the net was cast very broadly indeed. If it weren't, they'd be rushing to leak the identities of the targets, whether the revelations compromised security or not.

by Smallbottle on Tue Dec 20, 2005"

-snip-

Well, if the net is that broad, since Mudcat is a [largely progressive] international forum in which political issues are discussed, I've no doubt that we're probably being spied on as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:13 PM

Explanation: The "none / 0" that appears in that quote is part of the dailykos rating system.

As to the question "How many people are personally affected by the warrentless domestic spy program-the estimate is in the thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: GUEST,A
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:17 PM

Does the thought that if one is not associated with a terriost group, domestic or foreign, one has nothing to worry about mean anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:22 PM

ask the Quakers that one..!

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:22 PM

Guest, that has been definitively shown NOT to hold true.

Here is some stuff on Tom DeLay's lovely life:

Live Like a King - On Someone Else's Dime


It's an ABC report and it starts out with:

WASHINGTON Dec 20, 2005 — "As Tom DeLay became a king of campaign fundraising, he lived like one too. He visited cliff-top Caribbean resorts, golf courses designed by PGA champions and four-star restaurants all courtesy of donors who bankrolled his political money empire.

"Over the past six years, the former House majority leader and his associates have visited places of luxury most Americans have never seen, often getting there aboard corporate jets arranged by lobbyists and other special interests.

"Public documents reviewed by The Associated Press tell the story: at least 48 visits to golf clubs and resorts; 100 flights aboard company planes; 200 stays at hotels, many world-class; and 500 meals at restaurants, some averaging nearly $200 for a dinner for two."

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:33 PM

I'd rather put my trust in the USA's Constitution than in the "judgement" of Bush and his cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:34 PM

Well, MiziAzizi, having been tailed for 3 years in the 60's by 2 F.B.I. agents, I know that everything I write here is going into some file... I'd like to think that I won't get arrested and sent "rendered' to one of Bush's secret torture camps but when one considers that various peace groups were on the Bush/Cheney radar screen, there is no assurance...

What I don't like, however, is that without habeas corpus, I wouldn't have any chance to be charged or to have an attorney or even the Red Cross....

And, I'm not even a terrorist... Just a professed hater of Bush ***policies***, which all seem to be corrupt....

I would hope that my stand, as rector of VCU's Radical Student Union, against burning VCU's president, Warren Brandt's house the week of Kent State would get me a reprieve but, hey, Bush the chickenhawk, is a purdy vindictive feller, so you never know.... But, unless they have started a new file on me, the F.B.I. knows what I stood for that night... They have the RSU infiltrated... Plus I knew the two guys aassigned to me and my friends... Weren't no secret...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:36 PM

In other words, it depends what the definition of "terrorist group" is and who is doing the defining.

Are Quakers, Vegans, Catholics, and PETA terrorists?

Apparently Bush's administration thinks so.

Subject: RE: BS: Domestic Spying in the U.S.
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:57 PM

Yeah, Mizi... Like maybe if there are enough dumbass people who are more interesting in shopping than letting their governemnt turn into a dictatorship then maybe it could just come down to having the military march into the Capitol building and remove most of the Democrats...

Hey, think this is impossible??? Study history!!!! Every concievable bit of dumbass stuff has happened... Ahhh, ost of it in the last 100 years, come to think about it???

Hmmmmmmm?

Maybe an epidemic of dumbass stuff...

Heck with the chicken flu...

We got Bush to worry about... An' there ain't one drop of vaccine fir him...

Bobert