Catholic Priest clears his chest

Subject: Catholic Priest can no longer hide it
From: GUEST,Merseybeat
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 01:28 PM

Roman Catholic Priest plays his hand

Unionist anger over Nazi remarks

Fr Alec Reid said Catholics had been "treated like animals"
Unionists have condemned the priest who witnessed IRA decommissioning after he compared the unionist community to Nazis for past treatment of Catholics.
Father Alec Reid's remarks were made at a public meeting in south Belfast also attended by Reverend Harold Good, the Protestant decommissioning witness.

The DUP's Nigel Dodds said the remarks were appalling, while UUP leader Sir Reg Empey said they were almost racist.

Fr Reid later apologised, saying he had lost his temper.

He said he had been provoked and offended by comments made by some members of the audience questioning his integrity and regretted the language he had used.

However, the DUP's Ian Paisley Junior rejected this.

"He's apologised, but he's explaining away the reasons why he made those comments," Mr Paisley said.

Speaking in the House of Commons, Secretary of State Peter Hain said he joined in the condemnation of Fr Reid's remarks.

The meeting was held at Fitzroy Presbyterian Church on Wednesday, and about 200 people were in the hall to hear what Father Reid and Mr Good had to say.

Fr Reid told the audience: "The reality is that the nationalist community in Northern Ireland were treated almost like animals by the unionist community. They were not treated like human beings. It was like the Nazis treatment of the Jews."


Victims' representative William Frazer walked out of the meeting

Mr Dodds, the North Belfast MP, said if unionists had made similar remarks they would be threatened with prosecution for inciting hatred.

"The remarks by Alec Reid are appalling and reveal a mindset which could be portrayed as deeply bigoted and fundamentally racist," Mr Dodds said.

Sir Reg Empey said the comments damaged Fr Reid's credibility as a witness.

"It destroys confidence because how can the word of somebody using that sort of language be taken seriously.

"That's sad, because I'm convinced that a lot of decommissioning did take place, but Fr Reid is actually undermining the very work he is supposed to be part of."

Walkout

Willie Frazer of the victims' group Fair walked out of Wednesday's meeting in protest.

He said he was incensed by the priest's remarks.

"I did fly off the handle but I could not sit there and allow him to accuse the unionist people of persecuting the Roman Catholic community for the last 60 years. That is far from the truth."

On Thursday, Mr Frazer, five members of whose family, including his father, were murdered during the Troubles, said he did not accept Fr Reid's apology and said he was "trying to backtrack on what actually took place".

Last month, Fr Reid and Mr Good acted as witnesses to the republican paramilitary group's final act of disarmament.

Mr Good said he wanted to disassociate himself from Fr Reid's comments.

"I identify fully with the hurt and anger felt by many within the audience and within the wider community.

"However, I sincerely hope that Fr Reid's unqualified apology will be heard and accepted and that this incident will not be allowed to overshadow the significance of the decommissioning which was overseen by Alec Reid and myself."

Former Presbyterian moderator the Reverend Ken Newell, one of the organisers of the meeting, said Fr Reid's comments had to be seen in the context "where things were said to him which I think were below the belt".

Mr Newell said the priest was "wrong to say what he did", but he could see that within a short time of making the comments he had wanted to apologise.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 01:45 PM

Ok Mersey beat 2 questions
What point are you trying to make/promote?
Why didn't you put this thread on the non lyrics/music set of threads?

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 01:52 PM

So what? He has made a wrong comparison and apologised for that.

But that the treatment of the minority by the majority for (since) a very long time reminds rather of the bad examples in history than of the good ones how a minority can be treated isn't changed by a wrong comparison.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 03:52 PM

Why did you quote the whole thing instead of making a link?

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Den
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 04:20 PM

I think the more interesting question has to be what things were said to Fr. Reid in the meeting to make him say he what he did? As one of the organizers of the meeting, the Reverend Ken Newell, said Fr Reid's comments had to be seen in the context, "where things were said to him which I think were below the belt". Well done Mr Newell. You see folks here's another prime example of the kind of report you get out of the sick six and you know who controls the media. To be a fly on the wall at some of these meetings.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Merseybeat
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 05:42 PM

William Fraser. We are proud of your courage and faithful stand with the innocent victims of terrorists and their apologists even in the clergy. You were right to speak out for justice and it only took a small scratch to let the hideous truth pour out venomously from Reid. That was indeed a malevolent, malignant piece of mischief. Reid's Relay Team. Nazi baton passed from whom to Mary McAleese? She runs with it as far as she can and passes it to Reid. We do not know which team member Reid will pass it to but one thing we do know, Enough is Enough. They will not rewrite our history with lies for we will not have it. The truth always comes out as it did at that meeting thanks to William's courage. Reid, McAleese and the entire republicam movement want to demonise the entire Unionist and Loyalist population of Ulster. They want the world to believe we deserved the slaughter of our families and friends and neighbours. They want to point the accusing finger to disguise their own bloodied hands. Well it is time Ulstermen and women began to speak out clearly. We did our best to live in peace with our Catholic neighbours but for their dream of an Aryan Celtic master race on this island they were prepared to see us die. Those who make accusations must tell us why in this day and age the irish openly discriminate against Protestants in Southern Ireland. One prime example---OUT OF THEIR ENTIRE POLICE FORCE WHY ARE THERE ONLY TWELVE PROTESTANTS ON THAT FORCE?

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 05:54 PM

Dear Merseybeat
Thanks for your posts, it allows my fellow debaters an insight to your mindset.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Den
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 06:04 PM

Holy fook. Merseybeat I believe you mean the Republic of Ireland. well since there are only about 20 protestants in the Republic of Ireland I'd have to say that is a pretty good ratio;-)

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 07:04 PM

Round, like a circle in a spiral......yawn

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 11:41 PM

calm down, calm down!

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:17 AM

It's quite wrong to compare the NI Unionists to Nazis. They were far more like whites in the Deep South (of the USA that is), with whom they in fact often share a religion. The establishment are content to sit back and pull strings, while the lower orders, they regret, are misguided enough to do the dirty work of lynching and burning.

The big difference of course being that the Civil Rights movement in NI failed, pacifism failed, and violence took over.

Should this be in the thread about the Black Irish?

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 08:24 AM

different weather over there in the deep south - thats another difference.

shall I compare thee to a summers day....

one can't help but feel comparing ones fellow citizens to either deep south racists, or nazis........well it can't help.

compare them to fluffy toys, or father christmas...something nice!

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:17 AM

I don't want Ian Paisley coming down my chimney.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 12:49 PM

Every now and again the true face of Rome is allowed to shine through - first McAleese, now the IRA-apolgist "Father" Reid. Ulster Independence within the British Commonwealth is the only answer - successive British Governments have attempted to appease and placate the insatiable Irish Republicanism. Militant Irish Republicanism is a cancer - the only solution is to cut it out, PERMANENTLY. Well done in helping to expose the bigotry of Alec Reid. In horror I listened and watched this unbelievable display of hatred and disrespect for the Protestant and Unionist community. I subsequently watched the Hearts and Minds programme on BBC where Mr Reid stated that he believed the IRA did not rob the Northern Bank or engage in criminality. And this is an independent witness for IRA decommissioning? In my view, he is a disgrace to his church and a disgrace to the process of peace

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 01:50 PM

Lord Craigavon the first prime Minister declared N Ireland as "a Protestant state for a Protestant people", Basil Brooke, Prime Minister in the 1950-60s, declared, "I wouldn`t have one about the place".

The sick six counties has always been a cold climate for Nationalists.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:14 PM

think fluffy toy then...ask yourself what would Harry Corbett do in this situation.
Bye bye sooty, Say bye bye, bye bye everybody......

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:16 PM

Friendly advice, stand well back from the drums.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:34 PM

Harry might have put his hand up someones ass, but I'm not ! Fluffy or no flutty.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 08:37 PM

Merseybeat,

Not mischief making, I would really like to know the answers to a few questions.

1. How many catholics/republicans were in the Ulster police force pre 1969?

2. How many catholics/republicans held top positions in government, the judiciary, and business pre 1969?

3. How many protestants/loyalists had to put up with provocative displays from catholic/republican marchers taking over the streets where they lived?

4. How many protestant/loyalist children had to run a gauntlet of grown men spewing hate and vitriol, because they had to pass through catholic areas to get to school?

5. Why was it necessary for catholics in Ulster to live together in small tight communities surrounded on all sides by protestant areas which they entered at considerable risk?

You seem to have all the facts at your fingertips, so perhaps you wouldn't mind satisfying my curiosity.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 01:45 AM

lets hope facts are all that he's got at his fingertips. I don't think he's in much of a mood for dialogue Don T. Would you be - if those were the key beliefs of your life. Mind you its only as daft as thinking that shooting at folks from the top of a block of flats is a bit of a hoot.

think fluffy toy Don, but watch out - even Harry Corbett got hit with a hammer now and then. that Sooty was a mean bastard when the mood took him.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 11:40 AM

Above, arsehole.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Soldier boy
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 12:32 PM

If I may reply to the 5 questions above, No 1 is 5%, No 2 is 1%, No 3, none, No 4 none, and as you can see the 4 answers above also gives the answer to question No 5.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 01:44 PM

Thank you Soldier boy, that is about what I had expected.

It would seem that some self examination by loyalists might be a good thing, wouldn't you say.

Nobody deserves to be blown up, and there is no possible justification for bombings. By the same token, nobody should be treated as a second class citizen in his own country, nor should anyone have see his children terrorised by rabid religious, political, or racial bigots.

Oppression of minorities always leads to a reckoning, and peace will be an impossible dream as long as the oppressors try to put total blame on the shoulders of the oppressed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Joe Mc Crory
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:27 PM

I see new figures out yesterday from N.I. office. regarding punishment shootings and beatings. 98% by Loyalist groups. 1% Republican. 1% by others.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 09:34 PM

Loyalists/Unionists say "We will not share power with Sinn Fein till the IRA give up the guns"

IRA announce that the shooting war is over, and order their men to cease fire.

IRA de-commission arms, as verified among others by a British general.

Loyalists/Unionists keep their guns, and say they don't trust the IRA, they don't trust the men who verified de-commissioning, and they don't believe that the guns have gone.

Who is acting in good faith, and who is blocking the peace process?

From here it looks like the loyalists/unionists, but I'm sure they'll blame the republicans.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Jimmy C
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 11:44 PM

Merseybeat,

Maybe there were only 12 protestants in the Gardai because only 12 applied for the job, it may be as simple as that.
IN addition to what Don asked I ask how many catholics worked in the shipyards, how many in the aircraft factory, how many in the Ormeau bakery. I know the shipyards did employ catholics, so also did the aircraft factory but not in numbers that reflect the demographics of the region. I know that none worked in the that said "NO CATHOLICS NEED APPLY".
I do feel that the nazi part of the statement by Father Reid was unnecessary and ill timed, but to be fair he also said that the unionists had no choice and that the catholics would probably have done the same if the situation was reversed. Please read the entire statement before selecting portions of it just to make a point.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Jimmy C
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 11:48 PM

The last line of the first paragraph should read " I know that none worked in the bakery, because up until 1960 they had a banner at the front gates that said "NO CATHOLICS NEED APPLY".

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 03:21 AM

Merseybeat,
I would not take sides with you, but it is interesting to see something of the majority community's viewpoint here.
We have had the Nationalist agenda put before us over and over again by the very familiar names, so please do not allow yourself to be shouted down by them all. Most here would welcome seeing both sides of the issue.

(5% Catholics in RUC pre 69? Not that unreasonable)
(Perhaps protestants do not apply to be police in Eire? Unreasonable)

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 04:14 AM

Merseybeat, put your next point across, I'm ready and more than willing.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 04:46 AM

Keith A,

If you could bring yourself to look at both sides of a statistic, you might find that "not unreasonable" is the wrong response to 5% catholics in a force upholding law in a country with a lot more than 5% catholic population.

It seems that your view of the situation is about as even handed as the RUC's performance of their role at that time.

Continued defence of the indefensible is destroying the credibility of the loyalist POV.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 05:21 AM

Good point Don. Well said

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 05:53 AM

Why do you think Fr, Reid is wrong in his remarks ? After all is it not true that Lord Craigavon Prime Minister of Northern Ireland flew the Nazi flag on his home ? And is it not true that he entertained Joachim Von Ribbontrop and other German officers such as Goering and senior S.S. in his home at Portstewart ? He also flew the Nazi flag from his yacht. This was the Northern Ireland Prime Minister well known for his hate of Catholics.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:09 AM

Sorry to correct you Sweeney, but it was Lord Londonderry the owner of Mount Stewart a large estate on Strangford Lough who entertained Von Ribbentropp the German Foreign Minister in the Hitler Cabinet.

Von Ribbentropp along with Goering were friends of Lord Londonderry, the good Lord always had a Nazi flag flying from his yacht which was moored on off the County Down coast, he also had a swastika flying on the grounds of Mount Stewart, a statue of a Nazi stormtrooper which was presented to his lordship by the Von man is still in Mount Stewart.

The headlines in one of the local papers at the time was, "Nazi flags flown in N Ireland".

Retract Fr Reid all is forgiven.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:19 AM

Thanks ard, just realised it after I had posted. too late by then. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:29 AM

Don,
I meant in the context of the time.
Pre 69 we can all agree that the Catholic minority was being denied basic rights and legitimate aspirations by a sectarian and biggoted Stourmont government, yet the RUC had one in twenty of its strength from the Catholic community.
Not enough to be truly representative, but a good starting point to build on when the injustices began to be swept away.

Sadly, those Catholic RUC men were forced to quit, not by the government, the Unionists or the Loyalists, but by the IRA.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 07:02 AM

Sorry but your wrong Keith. No they were not forced out by the IRA. Many of us know that the R.U.C. had their own Orange Lodges and many Catholics were subjected to so much verbal abuse regarding their faith that they left. This was pre 1969. Once the troubles kicked off those within the force were getting abuse in every station about the Catholic up starts, this being the Civil Rights movement.The hate of Catholics within the force is well known. I know many older policeman who gave me first hand accounts of this. So sorry that attack on the PIRA falls short yet again.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 07:08 AM

Pre 69 I am sure all those things you cite were true.
Yet still, according to above post, one on twenty came from the minority community.

That number later went down because Catholic policemen were not safe in their own community. What would you have done to a Catholic policeman in your street Sweeney?

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 08:15 AM

We never were confronted with that problem all of those CathoLIC RUC men were posted to area were they were not known, I do remember an RUC man setting up one of his Catholic colleagues this was in Cushendall Co Antrim in the early 1970s.

That RUC man was in a loyalist organisation , Catholic RUC men had to have very thick skins, as a regular ex-RUC man keeps relating in numerous letters to the Irish News,they wouldn`t trust their Catholic mates with any information, regarding raids etc, seeing that the raids were generally carried out on Nationalist districts.

The IRA need not have bothered with intimidating those Catholic RUC men there was plenty of UDA,UVF etc in the RUC, the many cases of collusion with the loyalists murder squads and the various branches of the security forces bear this out.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 08:34 AM

Dear Keith
I grew up in a street with TWO POLICEMEN living in it and never had a cross word with them. One Catholic the other Protestant. I grew up in mixed area. Until the Loyalists burnt out every Catholic family. Including the policeman !Funny how times change Keith, now protestant policemen are getting burned out of theiir homes in Protestant areas as reported after the loyalist riots last August, come on you must have something to say about that ? And ard I really love to hear that word COLLUSION mentioned no one on this seems to pick up on it when it comes up. Least of all the poster above you!

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 08:38 AM

So Catholic RUC men were not targetted by IRA?

I am surprised. I would have thought that they would have been and have read that intimidation (Sweeney gets cross when my memory lets me down)

I do remember a 17year old Catholic lad you chose to follow family tradition and join the army.
On his first home leave the poor kid was executed by PIRA.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 08:41 AM

woops

...read that intimidation by PIRA forced them to quit. (...

...Catholic lad who chose...

sorry,
Keith.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 08:45 AM

Yes Keith members of the police and army were targets, we did not target because of someones faith ! Yes your right if someone joined the British army and came home on leave, be he Catholic or Protestant he was still a target. No I don't get cross with you Keith, it wastes my time having to correct your facts all the time.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 09:00 AM

Then you can not complain that there were too few Catholics in the Police.
If any had joined you would have killed them.

Now, is it true that there are only 5 protestants in the Irish police?
That would be less than 0.1%?

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 09:01 AM

Keith the PIRA were not a sectarian force. No one was singled out for their faith, unlike loyalists. If you get a chance read the Green Book. These were the strict rules volunteers lived by.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 09:12 AM

Sorry Keith I did not state that figure you mention.I will leave it to the poster.I myself looked on a policeman as a policeman. It meant little to me if he was Catholic, Protestant or Jew.When did I complain about too few joining the police ? That is for another poster also. Had many dealings with he police, and memories still very fresh, never cared much about which church they attended !

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 09:17 AM

Not sectarian in the sense that you would cheerfully murder any policeman or woman, in their home if possible.

But a protestant joining the police at least had a sporting chance of not being hunted down. A Catholic would be sure to be found out by you and killed.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 09:21 AM

Many dealings with the police?
Well you were an IRA man.
You would have treated them worse.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 10:13 AM

Dear Keith. Sorry never faced membership charges of a prescribed organisation. Still live with a spotless police record. Yes had many dealings with the police, but then again so do many Catholics. You didn't need to be a member of the PIRA Your address was usually enough.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 10:19 AM

Never faced charges.
How often you have cited lack of charges as evidence of innocence.
But you have TOLD us that you were an IRA man!

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 12:00 PM

I understand Keith if an Irish says he is innocent you have trouble understanding it. I somehow imagine you still have trouble accepting the Guilford four and Birmingham six were innocent ? If you read their statements all admitted they were members of the PIRA, none were even Republicans !