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About Learning Differences
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Subject: About Learning Differencess From: M.Ted Date: 12 Dec 01 - 03:47 PM Recently, there has been some discussion of "learning differences" and the impact they have on whether people learn, say, theory, or reading, or other such things. Some of it amuses me, some annoys me, but a lot of it reflects a misundertanding both music and learning of music, So, since have been teaching and playing music for close to forty years now, I figure that I am in a position to pass a few things on to you all, whether you want to hear them or not. The first thing is, more than anything else, music is a discipline. Talent plays a part, but it is not as important as being determined to find a way to overcome obstacles, and then persisting til you've reached your goal. The second thing is, there are a variety of skills involved in playing music, some people are good at some things, some are good at others--but everyone has trouble with some things as well--success doesn't depend on what you're good as as much as how you approach the things you are not good at, because that is ultimately what keeps you from moving forward- The third thing is that, to a great extent, how well you learn(especially at first) depends on how knowledgable your teacher is--since you can't learn something from someone who doesn't understand it. And you have be able to trust their judgments, above your own, as to what is important, and when it is important to study it. The fourth thing is, with the proper preparation, no matter how difficult something seems, you can master it through continued and repeated efforts--if you haven't learned it, it is because you haven't kept at it. Music is actually relatively simple--it works with fixed structures, and it follows rules that allow it to be learned and recreated by almost anyone who cares to put the time in--the trick is that it is only simple if you put the time in. Computer programs and the internet can help you to access information more easily, and help you to organize it more easily, but they cannot help your comprehension of the concepts involved, and they don't help much with the skills, which are based on your personal discipline-- Everyone who learns music has a "learning deficit" in a least one of the areas that make up the whole picture--some may have trouble with tempo, others have trouble with aural harmony, others struggle to read, while others still are challenged by memorization--each has to be overcome on a personal level--
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: CarolC Date: 12 Dec 01 - 04:38 PM Here's something interesting I discovered. I think it ties in with what you are saying at least to some extent. And I think this is a brain wiring kind of thing.
My first instrument was the piano. I was not a particularly gifted or enthusiastic piano student, and my instruction was group lessons given at my elementary school once a week when I was in the fifth grade. I didn't like to practice, and I never got very far, but I did pick up some of the rudiments of music theory.
I never was able to read the music very well, because I'd pick through it just enough to memorize the piece (and I'd memorize some of it when it was being played in class), and once I had it memorized, I only pretended to use the sheet music. I gave up with the piano after about a year, although a few years later I tried to start with private lessons, but the teacher started me out playing Bartok. That didn't work so well, I guess because Bartok was really hard for me to understand or memorize.
For many years my instrument was the recorder. I was never able to read music for the recorder. I did try, but my efforts only resulted in frustration. For years I played early music (renaissance and early baroque), and learned by listening. I was only able to learn the treble line, and I was never able to play some of the early baroque pieces that I loved by composers like Teleman and Vivaldi. Eventually, I started playing traditional folk music almost exclusively, which I learned by ear.
I had pretty much given up on learning to read music. But to my great surprise, when I started learning to play the accordion, I discovered that I could read music for that instrument. Not sight reading, but enough to be able to learn new pieces, and to use the music as a reminder if I forget how part of a piece is supposed to go.
I think maybe the brain wiring aspect of this is that with the recorder, several fingers are used to make one note. And there are many combinations of finger configurations required for even the simplest of pieces. With the accordion, one finger is used to play one note on the treble side, and one finger is used to play one chord on the bass side. My brain can translate the note I see on the page into an understanding of which one finger to use, but apparently not for several fingers at once.
Also, I think reading for the piano was a problem because there were too many notes for me to really see and understand at once. I have Attention Deficit Disorder, and apparently this effects my ability to handle a lot of sensory stimuli. With the music I use for the accordion, there is only the melody line, with letters for the chords above the dots. So in my case, maybe the problem needed to be overcome by switching to the right instrument. And I must say, while practice felt like work on the piano and on the recorder, on the accordion, it all just feels like playing music. I usually play for at least a couple of hours almost every day, and it never feels like work. I love every minute of it.
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: GUEST Date: 12 Dec 01 - 04:48 PM M.Ted Everything you've said is a massive generalisation. i can't be bothered right now, but I could easily come up with arguements against virtually every point you've made. Thanks for the post, but what you've said simply isn't true for everyone |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Cappuccino Date: 12 Dec 01 - 05:07 PM Carol, I've often thought that people can have a 'right' instrument, but when I went to the music teachers at my son's school and asked: 'how do I find the right instrument for my child?' I was met with completely blank looks. Their only answer was 'we've no idea - you choose the instrument and we'll teach it'. And yet, I've still a notion that, given the opportunity to try a whole lot of different instruments, one may really stand out for us as 'our' instrument. And maybe it has something to do with your 'brain wiring'. But I think my wires have become crossed...! - Ian B |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: CarolC Date: 12 Dec 01 - 07:20 PM Crossed wires, huh? Sounds like you should be playing the accordion. I think crossed wires is a prerequisite for that.
I remember that when I was a child, I used to be really attracted to the idea of playing the accordion. But I never had a chance to play one (other than a cheap little toy accordion that was not the same thing at all) until about a year and a half ago. Maybe if you show your son a lot of different instruments you could see if he is particularly attracted to any of them. In my own son's case, he took lessons on the violin, the hammered dulcimer, and drums. I think he could be good on any of those instruments but his first love is filmmaking. He prefers to devote pretty much all of his available time to making films and is not willing to take time away from that in order to play music. That's ok, though. He makes good movies ;-)
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Helen Date: 12 Dec 01 - 07:49 PM Ian, About 20 years ago I read a really good book by a woman called Atarah ben Tovim, or something like that. She believed in helping people to find the instrument which fits their personality, likes & interests and abilities and she did have a music centre set up where people could come in and try as many instruments as they liked so that they could get a chance to see which ones had potential. Maybe you could find something about her in an Internet search. She might even still have some books in print. Well worth reading. (My memory is not doing her ideas justice.) Helen |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 12 Dec 01 - 08:55 PM Ted and Carol
Thank you for some brillant insight and the sharing of your knowledge.
I agree with ALL of your observations.
It is surprising, how many things that were once difficult and "impossible to obtain," in our early adulthood, are now the simple "how could this have EVER been difficult?" in our later years.
The seeds, if they are planted correctly, do grow and mature.
At the turn of th 1890's-1900's some excellent pedagogical material was published. It hasn't changed.
THANKS again, |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Robin2 Date: 12 Dec 01 - 09:16 PM Carol, right instrument for the right person....I really do agree with that from personal experience.
I LOVE wind instruments...they speak to me and have a soul that I find enchanting and beguiling....
I UNDERSTAND string instruments. I can pick up a stringed instrument (guitar, banjo, hammered dulcimer, harp,) and FEEL how it is set up. With lessons, I can play these instruments with feeling and ability.
Another friend of mine spends a TON of time working on their fiddle technique...still they are average. But this same person is an unbelievable wind player, rivaling national players in my opinion on tin whistle and Irish flute
I do believe that musicians have talents in different areas, and that there is a right instrument for the right player. Any comments? Robin |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: M.Ted Date: 13 Dec 01 - 12:54 PM Thanks for posting your story, Carol--it is an inspiration to those of us who care about playing and learning to play music--More people than you may realize struggle with those written notes,and do exactly as you do--it may not seem very elegant, but it does work, which means that ultimately, you get to where you want to get-- And Gargoyle, thanks for your praise--it between you and Carol, I feel like it was worth bringing this up-- As to the GUEST, you prove my point--"I can't be bothered now" is the Mantra for people who don't put the effort in--thanks for not bothering to post a bunch of excuses-- Ian and Helen, I think that different personalities are drawn to different instruments, and different styles of music--I was a poor brass player, and a rotten keyboard student, but guitar seems to suit me, and study as I might, I never got anywhere at all with "classical music"(though I studied for years and am quite fond of it) I find my voice somewhere between folk music and old time jazz-- |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Noreen Date: 13 Dec 01 - 01:14 PM I found The Right Instrument for Your Child by Atarah Ben-Tovim, Douglas Boyd to be very interesting reading- I do think people are suited to some instruments more than others, and Atarah talks about different personal chacteristics which suit different instruments. Noreen |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Jeri Date: 13 Dec 01 - 01:18 PM M.Ted, you've stated good points. I would argue that while a teacher must be knowledgable about the subject he teaches, he'll be completely ineffective if he doesn't have the ability to teach. Being an expert on a subject isn't what makes a teacher good. It's being able to communicate that knowledge in a way students can understand. The greatest thing a teacher can teach a student is how to teach themselves: how to research, how to think critically, and how to apply the information they find to their lives. An opinion with no explanation or support: somebody needs to be heard, but has little or nothing to say. As to instruments, I think we just love the sound of certain ones. We know what we can do with them if we learn, so it carries us through the rough spots in learning. |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: GUEST,Claymore Date: 13 Dec 01 - 05:25 PM And Carol, as your neighbor, I have to say that when you first started playing, it sounded like a Greyhound bus had overturned in the parking lot. Now when I wake up to your playing, I believe I've just woken up from a really bad dream about a bar fight in a French bistro... just kidding. You've come a long way. |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: CarolC Date: 13 Dec 01 - 06:51 PM Claymore, you're too kind. (Still, I get the last laugh. You have to listen to me play whether you like it or not... ) |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: CarolC Date: 13 Dec 01 - 07:30 PM (...however, just to demonstrate that I do have some compassion, I will refrain from talking about your bodhran playing.) |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Amos Date: 13 Dec 01 - 09:29 PM Ummm...how close are you two neighbors? :>) |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Bert Date: 13 Dec 01 - 10:38 PM ...The fourth thing is, with the proper preparation, no matter how difficult something seems, you can master it through continued and repeated efforts-- Nope, 'taint true. As a singer who has tried hard to get even marginally efficient with the guitar for the past 30 years, I can tell you that it ain't so. Some things come easy to me, singing, mathematics and engineering are fine. Guitar playing NO, continued and repeated efforts only serve to prove that I was never intended to be a guitar player. The twelfth root of two was fairly simple to derive myself one time when I needed to find out fret spacing, but hearing chords and intervals just doesn't happen. |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Stilly River Sage Date: 13 Dec 01 - 10:56 PM "Guest" who delivered his/her potshot at 4:48pm was certainly a dose of cold water on the thread. Why waste our time and good will by posting at all if you "can't be bothered" to explain yourself, and have no nerve to name yourself? Chances are that if you posted, you've traced this thread to see the reaction. Get yourself a glass of wine, relax, and when you have a minute, sign up as a member and then spell out what your complaints are. Just about everything in life can be generalized. So I see your criticism is generally meaningless. Hard work can compensate for a lack of natural aptitude. Something attempted half-heartedly, even for 30 years, can't equal the results when a passionate learner throws him/herself into learning something. Maggie |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Mudlark Date: 13 Dec 01 - 11:13 PM Altho I agree, in part, with all that's been said, I have to say that I learned guitar from somebody who knew NOTHING about it....myself. For me, music theory might as well be Swahili, my chord repetoire and fingering are both limited and I still, after practicing (and playing...and flubbing) for 40 years, can't master a Bminor. But I love to sing, I get great enjoyment out of accompanying myself on the guitar and dulcimer, and other people seem to like it too.... I have a tremendous respect for those who have mastered their instrument, whatever it is, physically, mentally and emotionally....but there is a lot of pure pleasure to be had from just making music, even in a limited, or inexpert way, IMHO (and with my limited skills it is very H indeed!). |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Rick Fielding Date: 13 Dec 01 - 11:25 PM Carol, when people wake up hearing you and think they're in a French BORDELLO....now THAT's a worthwhile goal! Very good thread, Ted. I'm gonna re-read the whole thread a couple more times but I think I agree completely with what you said. Love to hear GUEST'S objections if he finds the time. Bert, I absolutely GUARANTEE you I could make you a much better guitar player in two hours. How do I know? If we ever get the two hours together you'll find out. Actually for once, I'm NOT joking. Rick |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: CarolC Date: 14 Dec 01 - 01:22 AM Rick, I do believe you're right. I think I'll start working toward that goal right away.
Amos... we share a wall. And the walls aren't soundproofed in this apartment complex.
Rick, I don't think I ever told you about this, but to back up what you're saying about your teaching abilities... when I was visiting in Orillia, I went with flattop to a little coffee house in a small town that I can't remember the name of any more. flattop pointed out one of the performers as being, or having been one of your students. I could really hear the influence that studying under you had on his playing. It was quite noticable. I was very impressed. |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Cappuccino Date: 14 Dec 01 - 06:26 AM Thank you for the link to the Atarah ben-Tovim book. I particularly liked the bit in the typical Amazon review which said: "After first dispelling the myth that only the specially gifted can learn to play music..." Yes, that's the kind of encouragement I like! It also said, in equally typical Amazon fashion, "people who have bought this book have also bought books by JK Rowling". Hmmm... a music spell would be very helpful. All the best - Ian B
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: M.Ted Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:39 PM Bert and Mudlark, I was going to make Rick's offer, though getting two hours of instruction from him is a way better deal than getting it from me(except maybe on the theory--I stuck with the theory thread he started, and he bailed out!) For anyone else who is in doubt about what we have to say here, think about this: listen to the nay-sayers and what does it get you? It sure won't make you a better player-- |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Rick Fielding Date: 14 Dec 01 - 05:57 PM Better still Ted, we'll DEPROGRAM him of his bad habits! Kidnap him, and take him to a Mountain resort (on his dime of course) and not let him go til he knows the chords to "How High the Moon"!! Yah, you're right, I bailed out.....but I read EVERY WORD! Thanks Carol. Rick |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Bert Date: 15 Dec 01 - 08:57 AM OK Rick, You're on! I'll be in Colorado again for most of January. I'll call you when I get back. Maggie, I was going to disagree with you but I'll wait till I've taken Rick's offer, and hope that you are right. |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Jeri Date: 15 Dec 01 - 10:26 AM Bert, glad you're going to take Rick up on his For those of us who are self-taught, it's easy for us to acknowledge someone knows more about an instrument (or any subject) than we do. Ironically, many of us don't consider that they also might be a better teacher than we are. (Personal experience "I've tried everthing - I KNOW I can't do it!" Well, I tried everything I thought of.) |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Cappuccino Date: 15 Dec 01 - 10:53 AM I'm not good enough to be a teacher, but I do enjoy listening to teachers who are open-minded... I was impressed by one guitar teacher of many years' respected experience, who said he loved going to listen to fairly average players in pubs, because they very often did something which made him ask himself: 'how the hell did they do THAT?' He said it made him remember there were always different ways to do things, and that less experienced players may have discovered something he could learn from. - Ian B |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Rick Fielding Date: 15 Dec 01 - 11:45 AM That's why I earn even less than Catspaw! Seriously Bert, it ain't mystical and it ain't magic. It's getting folks to start doing about five TINY things differently. Things they probably never gave a second thought to, but may have kept them at square one for years. Works for ANY instrument as well. Rick |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Amos Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:27 PM Mudlark: Re: B minor, if it's the barring that gets you down, it's is easy enough to work around -- just slide your A minor up two frets like Bobby Dylan!! It isn't a true B-minor, but it sounds close enough for folk music! A
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Bert Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:35 PM Well I've certainly been at square one for years, despite having had many weeks of lessons one time. I'm looking forward to this. |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Tinker Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:54 PM Just this week I realized that if I hadn't been able to figure out a bar chord in 25 years... I should probably at least try a lesson, so I asked my son's teacher to squeeze me in for a lesson. ( Yes, Rick, I've been reading all your posts on 6 finger chords....) Long story short, this wonderful and fexible young man simply helped me physically put my fingers in place and I know it can work now with practice. Of course as a classiclly trained, rock instructor , he doesn't know Country Blues.... but he kept sight reading pieces out of the Stefan Grossman book, made me start a piece and told me to try and get a tape and to please come back cause the music was fun... He kept mumbling as he played each piece... "Oh that's not what I expected..." Tinker |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: Mudlark Date: 15 Dec 01 - 08:46 PM Amos....thank you for the suggestion! I just tried it out and it sounds pretty good. I'm embarassed to say that all barr chords are beyond me, despite years of practice...I can't even do the "short" version of Bminor, so am very glad to have substitute...I've always loved the sound of a Bminor going into an Eminor....when someone ELSE plays it. And Rick...never having had the money for lessons, I would love to spend even an hour with anyone who could make me a better guitar player! But I think an hour or 2 with you would be of more help than most...the way you explain stuff makes even me almost understand it...I think you are a born and gifted teacher. |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: GUEST Date: 15 Dec 01 - 09:08 PM Hi I just read your note in the page and thought that you could tell me if you are an enthusiastic musician? you seem quite interested but say that because you cant memorise things you loose interest. I understand that as I am dyslexic. My point is this, I have been playing Guitar for 14 years and just am begining to understand the finer ponts of music I think. You seem undetermined to do anything to help yourself if it doesnt happen imediatly??? All I think is that it doesnt matter if your music making is good bad or indifferent just keep playing and one day someone will find your music irresistable its fun its good and its living |
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Subject: RE: About Learning Differences From: CarolC Date: 15 Dec 01 - 10:44 PM GUEST, you don't mention who it is that you are addressing, but I think you might be addressing me.
If so, the answer to your quesion is, no. I am not an enthusiastic musician. But I am and extremely enthusiastic accordion player. That may not make any sense to anyone but me, but there it is. |
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