the uk folk revival in 2019

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:36 AM

So Jack what songs about fishing and the sea do Kerry fishermen sing similar in style to "Shoals of Herring"?

My guess their "go to" genre would most likely be Country & Western.

the Radio Ballads celebrated work and culture of the past and of the 50s. They celebrated a spirit and cultures in decline, no whining, but a portrayal of working people dealing with life as it was independently - Spot on Akenaton

McColl is right "Shoals of Herring" is NOT a folk song - McColl did know what Folk Songs are, as does Jim Carroll. The all to common view prevalent today that whatever folk sing is a folk song has destroyed "folk music" and to what end? Just to provide tolerant venues where the mediocre can rehash earlier attempts and aspirations of being pop stars trotting out 50s, 60s & 70s pop songs.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 11:12 AM

What I think needs to be done is small concerts in available halls or theaters with a good sound operator. Look at these events as an educative rather than totally entertainment following the monetized model. There should be a vital M.C. who can place the songs into a historical perspective. It should be someone with knowledge of Jim Carroll or others who are grounded in traditional English folk music. This is why Ewan was needed. The problem with folk clubs is the alcohol which minimizes the appreciation of the music.
Maybe Cecil Sharp House could take up the project I've suggested.

Folk music needs to be taught to those unfamiliar with it. It's not basically an entertainment form of music and a small intimate house concert or small hall or theater would suffice to present traditional singers. It should run like hell from rock concerts or any commercialized approach. The audience will be small at first until they are exposed to the values that it offers. The performers should be presented not just as performance masters but in context as an example of the traditional singing and instrumental styles.
Both Ewan and Lomax did something like this in their incipient days. It persisted.

Large folk festivals and a traditional approach to folk music are antithetical. You need the intimacy and being close to the trad singer or player.

Also, in conjunction, there should be students who learn to play and sing these songs. Unless the public owns the music, it will not survive.

Think small. And allow it to grow. Someone ought to be able to capitalize these types of performances.

Lomax introduced Leadbelly to the concert stage. Pete Seeger spent a year touring with Sonny Terry to expose his talents to an audience.

At the Old Town School in Chicago, we featured Horton Barker, a tradition octogenarian who made a huge impression with his unaccompanied ballads and stories. Dick Chase added an educational dimension with his story-telling ability. They both were vital traditional American performers. They were presented in an interesting fashion with context and explanation.

I am a fan of the ballad tradition and I see it as needing context to present it properly.
If people can understand the music and the need for the tradition to persevere than it will. I think the same for Black music as well with traditional blues artists or folk artists such as Vera Hall (google her) or Leadbelly or Iron Head Baker. I believe there is an English black artist that reflects a different kind of music from that of African-American.

You've got to redefine what entertainment is. Glitz, glamor, loud noise, superficial meaningless songs, hype and ego, money and general musical decay have to be fought.

A true national spirit comes not from alienating foreigners or uneducated audiences but embracing the native culture and explaining the need for it to those who don't get it.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 11:36 AM

Sorry, Stringsinger, but I did not run a small, intimate and primarily traditional folk club for many years for educational purposes. Although it was an education at times ;-) I ran it because I enjoyed doing it and the audience came because they enjoyed the music. Not quite sure how you would run one as an education but if you manage it, good luck to you!

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:06 PM

"Sorry, Stringsinger, but I did not run a small, intimate and primarily traditional folk club for many years for educational purposes"
Whether you like it or not Dave, education i one of the essentials if folk is to survive
WE were lucky in the early days because there were plenty of people of our age doing the same thing - now "our age" has become a hindrance
Traditional singing is alien to most people - I've heard youngsters describing it as "Paki music"
People need to be first won over to the 'folk sound' and to the idea that you need to concentrate on what you are hearing - and eventually, to think about it
I am constantly being given a boost when I hear a young Irish singer bring a maturity to their singing that you would expect from a veteran - nowhere near enough yet but we're getting there

We were once very moved when we took a Traveller friend to sing and tell stories to a bunch of Deptford schoolchildren
The teacher had them all sitting around Mikeen in a polite circle, until he started to sing and tell stories; gradually they all slid on their bums until they formed a tight circle at his feet - magic

Every time a singer introduces a song hhe is 'educating' his/her listeners, I see nothing wrong with extending that to workshops were this becomes more formalised
The ideal is, of course, your residents tool up to do this rather than buy it in
I jump at any chance of giving a talk - I would rather not get paid for   it because it then becomes work - though an occasional bed , I suppose, counts as payment
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:11 PM

Just because someone is a good artist - it doesn't mean they will share your political views.

Roy Porter was a brilliant poet of the 1930's and translator of Baudelaire, but he was an ardent Catholic and supporter of Franco.

TS Eliot wrote a letter to the papers in support of the hanging of EDith THompson.

They were both gifted writers.

I like to think of MacColl as part of that wonderful optimism and artistic renaissance that sprang from the aftermath of World War 2. Plus the uneasiness that came with the country voting Conservative. The interest in folksong as the birthright of the British Isles - you find it in Chips With Everything by Arnold Wesker when (unlikely) the whole of the RAF mess joins in a chorus of The Cutty Wren - much to the discomfiture of the officers, who go off in a huff.   Also you find folksong John Arden's plays. Sergeant Musgrave's Dance, and Armstrong's Last Goodnight is a play based on a folksong that many of us will have encountered in folk clubs.

What I'm trying to say is - I think its about a spirit that was abroad in England at that time. The Radio Ballads and much else in Ewan's work. The zeitgeist of the times, if you like. I don't see it as a dedication to Marxism in the abstract sense.
That actual point in time, socialism was in the air. Like in Tudor times - people found it easier to believe in God. In that period - people found it easier to believe in the prromise of a better life offered by socialism.
Ewan was a man of his times. I sort of envy him in that.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:14 PM

Frank,
I don't know if you are familiar with English folk clubs(I doubt it) but the few venues that I visit normally serve a really good pint.

If alcohol minimized the appreciation of music then there would be even less traditional songs preserved than have been.

The truth of the matter is that folk song is again a minority sport just as it was before the "Folk Scare".

Even if we still had some traditional singers around appearing on a good stage in a good setting with a knowlegeable compere (few of those around) with or without alcohol you would still have a problem finding an audience. It just isn't there.

Like one of Jimmy Witherspoon's songs said "Time brings on a change, nothing remains the same".

C'est la vie.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:18 PM

I didn't say I disliked it being an education, Jim. Just that education was not my reason for running a folk club. If education was a by-product that was a bonus, but it was never my primary concern.

I am intrigued by why anyone should refer to traditional English folk song as "paki music". Can you tell us who they were referring to and what song was being performed. I hope you educated them on both the difference between the genres and their racist attitude!

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 01:05 PM

"Just that education was not my reason for running a folk club"
Is it anybody's Dave ?
The best education you can possibly have is that which comes naturally because you make   yourself receptive to it

The Closed thread was based on the idea, which was quotes as having come from Bob Davenport, that education has no place in folk song

The 'Paki' quote came from a class of schoolkids Charles Parker was talking to - I have heard similar myself, with Chinkie-music'
I have always assumed it referred to what some have called 'The clear, natural open tones of traditional singing'
I have always known from personal experience that the natural singing voice that kids instinctively use is often considered ugly, which is why so many of us were told to "sit at the back of the class" because it was deemed that we couldn't sing

If I wanted to 'educate' them I would tell them what folk song was about - they have their own imaginations to decide what it sounds like to themselves
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 01:06 PM

Sorry - should have said that Charles was using recordings of Sam Larner
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 02:03 PM

I think Al Whittle is referring to Roy Campbell as the Franco sympathiser, not 'Roy Porter', whoever he may be.

T.S. Eliot did not 'wrote a letter to the papers in support of the hanging of Edith Thompson'. What he did write can be read here: Eliot's letter to the Daily Mail.

I won't comment on their respective worth as literary figures (not my field), but neither has done very well in terms of posterity.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 02:50 PM

Stringsinger, your method of calling out chords with the digits of your hand is really clever. It keeps beginner guitarists, banjoists, etc., together while they chord the song. Great idea.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 02:56 PM

"I like to think of MacColl as part of that wonderful optimism and artistic renaissance that sprang from the aftermath of World War 2"
Ewan and Joan Littlewood were putting on agit-prop playlets ouside factory gates in the Thirties while Gracie Fields was encouraging strikers in the texitile industry to scab and go back to work
The Radio Ballads were not intended as political productions but it was the fact the it was the first time working people were allowed to speak on the radio without a script or interviewer made them just than
The folk scene was built on the desire yo make your own music rather than buying it, its imminent death is largely because that is no longer the driving force and name and fame is now the over-riding objective
The hostile takeover by those who neither understand nor care about folk music and just want to use the clubs as musical dustbins hasn't helped

At least the revival gathered enough material and information together to ensure that it won't disappear altogether (locked in cupboards no doubt), but to be honest, I would rather be around when the youngsters find the same goldmines we were lucky enough to.
We have just received the wonderful news that the National Sound Archive at the British Library had received a sizeable grant and wants to put our collection on line
Hope to get rat-arsed on the strength of that tonight
Al last people will be able to hear what Walter Pardon and Mikeen McCarthy, and Peggy Delaney and Mary Delaney..... and all those other wonderful people had so say about their songs
Wheee !!
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 02:59 PM

On a lighter note, I've got home and done my bedtime reading here well before bedtime!

Maybe what Stringsinger describes is a bit like the Early Music scene?

"The truth of the matter is that folk song is again a minority sport just as it was before the "Folk Scare"." (Hootenanny)...unless you go back further to a time when it was one of the main forms of entertainment, by far.

Also, folk music here has been swamped by Americanisation (which has not waned despite the unpopularity of Trump) and the recent relentless promotion of internal ethnic diversity. American country music and (c)rap are more popular in England than English folk music due to hype not quality.

My attempt at defining the terms "folk" and "traditional":

"FORKS
Folk music may usefully be divided into two main categories – Traditional (unknown composer), & Composer (known - either deceased or contemporary, which may appear as self-penned or covers)." From here - http://davidfranks.blogspot.com/p/messages.html

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:13 PM

My apologies ...yes Roy Campbell - college was a long time ago.

Not sure about the TS Eliot letter.

I will explore the link.

Thank you for your interest in my post modette.

pleased to meet you


www.bigalwhittle.co.uk

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:36 PM

Re Walkabout Verse above

"unless you go back further to a time when it was one of the main forms of entertainment, by far."

Exactly, before the advent of the gramaphone, radio and television.

I think it is referred to by some as The good old days when times were bad.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:37 PM

Jim,
Congratulations! Wonderful news. Better late than never! Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh!

I have spent all of my life immersed in and enjoying folk music, but see no need to run down other genres. There are good and bad in all genres and one man's meat and all that.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:55 PM

"I think it is referred to by some as The good old days when times were bad." (Hootenanny)...but we should surely question those who say such; I, for one, love being in a crowded pub and joining in a big chorus, or just listening and tapping a foot at a session - very similar to what folks, albeit with less options, did in those days.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:58 PM

...I've had a packet of tic tacs in my pocket for years but when I went into a shop in the USA, I almost got a headache from the incredible number of options they stocked.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:08 PM

Sorry WV but your definitions of 2 types don't hold water.

Traditional folk songs are those that have undergone the traditional process, whether writer is known or not. Known writer is totally irrelevant.

Contemporary folk song, largely those that have not yet had time to undergo the traditional process.

Like almost everything else there are grey areas in between that people here can argue about.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:13 PM

Jim I'm reminded of the story about Horton Barker who was banned from singing for school children because his renditions made them cry.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:25 PM

From the same above-linked place, English folk music, at least, involves the repetition of a tune - to tell with words or for dance. Traditionally, more-sophisticated polyphony and chords would be found, rather, in church or court - eventually, i.e. Nowadays, of course, many turn up at folk clubs and accompany their songs with chords; I have heard Martin Carthy embellish the tune on his guitar, which sounded good but is probably closer to "art song" (another very old tradition).

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:46 PM

...a few years ago, in private, I tried accompanying Johnny Todd with chords on my keyboards (instead of simply doubling the melody or singing unaccompanied), but am 100% sure that it is not what English folkies are meant to do.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 08:10 PM

" but see no need to run down other genres"
I don't Steve - really dont
If there is an invitation to give my opinion on it, I will do so if it's withing my experience - it not always is so my veiws are based on superficial impression - like the 'All sounding the same' thread - that's what modern music sounds like to me, just as the music I liked as a youngster sounded like to my parents
I try to work ut why I feel as I do, and if I participate in discussions I hope to come away hoping to have learned something
I have fairly catholic tastes in music - from the true Classics Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven (in that order) to the middle years of Sinatra et al and most forms of Jazz and blues

Beyond that it becomes a problem; I have been totally absorbed in Traditional singing and all that it carries - social history and universal experience in particular - that includes politics, which, luckily, is another of my interests
If anybody has any ideas that politics and folk song aren't linked, I suggest they get hold of a copy of Terry Moylan's doorstep of a book, 'The Indignant Muse' - a giant collection of songs that helped change the course of of a nation

The main problem here of course is that Folk songs has been researched now for over a century
It has been identified for what it is, has been anthologised and documented as 'folk' and even defined (though that definition is in need of overhauling)
There is no need on earth why anybody should claim they don't know what folk is - its uniqueness screams at you.
Anybody who claims they don't know what folk is really doesn't want to know
It is that which is killing off the clubs and it is that which will eventually push folk song back into the shadows where it once lurked

I expect only two things; to be able to go to a folk club and hear folk songs and I expect to be able to post to forums like this without feeling out of place
Too much to ask maybe ?

"Johnny Todd" (Liverpool children's song)
The Critics Group and The London Singers Workshop was baaased n the premise that most people could sing if they worked at it
If people who had never tried to sing before came along to our workshops, they were given Johnny Todd to use as a starter -
As good a song as it may be, there are far better on the same theme in y opinion
It is a perfect song for introduce people to the practice of singing - if you like it, using it in this way won't spoil it
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 08:21 PM

Guest
"Jim I'm reminded of the story about Horton Barker who was banned from singing for school children because his renditions made them cry."
The sign of a good singer
Blind Travelling woman Mary Delaney was one of the finest singers we recorded - she bacame totally involved in everything she sang, forom high tragedy to bawdy belly-laughs
Her best songs was 'Buried in Kilkenny' - a superb Irish version of Lord Randal (I think it's on line somewhere)
It took half-a-dozen goes to get a full version of it - each time she sang it she broke down saying "It's too heavy"
We assumed she'd over-pitched it but in fact each time she sang it she emotionally choke up on it
A difficult experience for her, a moving one for the listener
Singers like Frank Proffitt, Horton Barker and Dillard Chandler do the same for me - knife-edged emotion each time
Horton's sister, Texas Gladden has the same effect
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:33 PM

Here's the link to Mary Delaney singing 'Buried in Kilkenny'.

https://www.itma.ie/digital-library/sound/buried-in-kilkenny-delaney

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: RTim
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 10:11 PM

This thread makes less sense everyday - and seems to have little to do with the Title...It seems to be adding nothing to the "Revival"......

Tim Radford

ps. I will probably NOT be looking, and certainly NOT reacting, anymore...

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 02:29 AM

Anybody who claims they don't know what folk is really doesn't want to know

Trouble is, Jim, when other people say what they believe folk music is, you tell them they are wrong. There is also the issue of contemporary folk music, which both you and Ewan say is not folk music at all. What you need to understand is that folk is a genre that is not appreciated by most and amongst those who do appreciate it there are not that many who, like yourself, fully understand it.

The majority may be wrong but they are the majority and it is the majority perception that matters. They believe that Bellowhead and Seth Lakeman perform folk music. They do not attend lectures on the structure of unaccompanied song. They believe the BBC presenters who tell them what folk music is. And, oft times, I agree with them.

Which brings us right back to the point of the thread. If the general public see a resurgence in what they believe is folk music, then it is flagged as a folk revival. It matters not one jot whether we agree or not. Sorry.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: r.padgett
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 03:35 AM

"The majority may be wrong but they are the majority and it is the majority perception that matters. They believe that Bellowhead and Seth Lakeman perform folk music. They do not attend lectures on the structure of unaccompanied song. They believe the BBC presenters who tell them what folk music is. And, oft times, I agree with them."

Yes I do agree largely but WE must NOT be led like a bull by its nose, folk music simply as stated by Folk music presenters is not always folk music ~ wishful thing and possibly for financial gain one way or another should be challenged

Bellowhead is/was a successful band singing and arranging traditional songs ~ largely one singer Jon Boden but with nigh a football team backing of instrumental player of the finest young artists!

Purpose entertaining folk festival and concert artists:

as soon as folk audiences are invited to wave their arms in the air it is NOT folk

Ray

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 03:46 AM

I agree, Ray. We are not led by the nose. We are individuals. Like everyone else ;-)

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 03:50 AM

"Trouble is, Jim, when other people say what they believe folk music is, "
Trouble is Dave that when I ask prople to tell me what they think fok music is, they can't tell me - they tell me it now means different things to different people
If folk music, particularly folk song, hadn't been as well documented as it has been, and accepeted for as long as it has for what it is, that would make sense
As it is, that argument is utter nonsense - we know what folk song is by pulling one of the eight large volumes of ;The Greig Duncan Folk Song Collection' or a copy of 'The Penguin Book of English, or Scottish, or American, or Canadian, or American or Australian Folk songs
There are many hundreds of collections of real folk songs and there are as many studies of the genre - -it is as well studied as any other cultural genre
The only way your argument can apply is to ignore the facts of what folk song is
What it boils down to seems to be that the only definition now being applied is "that's what I like to listen to and sing so I am going to call it folk and tell people what we do at our club is folk

That just doesn't make sense and, to my mind, it's sharp practice
There isn't one person I can ever remember that has responded to the fact that your non-definition - blame it on the people, definition is severely damaging the future of a music regarded by most as 'The Music, or The Voice of the People' - the cultural voice of 'ordinary' people who have created and sung songs that reflected their lives and experiences since time immemorial - a people who have long been regarded as mainly 'cultureless and non-
creative'

We knew what that the music/song we came to listen to back in the early sixties was unique - and it turned us on
We are now being told, by people who I otherwise like and respect, that that music has had its day
They/you are not offering a viable alternative - on the contrary - they/you can't agree among yourselves - cant, or refuse to give 'your knind of folk' an identity
In doing to, you have made the term 'folk' utterly meaningless - a convenient way of avoiding the bother of having to think up a title for the stuff you like
I find that totally unfathomable and totally unforgivable - a vandsalising attack on the people's culture

I hate to say it, but you are beginning to sound like an arch-Brexiteer - "that's what the people are voting for" - really ?
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 03:59 AM

Cross-posted
Tank you a million times for this
"The majority may be wrong but they are the majority and it is the majority perception that matters"
Where am hearing this constantly nowadays - every time I switch on a Brexit debate
The only difference is that a slim majority were conned enough to vote or this act of self-harm
Folk song, however defined, has never caught the interest, nver mind the support of the vast majority of the people
A "majority" Com onnnnnn !
The people don't care - the only people who do are us crumblies with one foot in the flower bed
Haven taken on the music, it is up to us to take on the responsibility for it
This is little more than populism without the opportunity to vote
Jim Carroll
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 04:16 AM

I think this thread has come full circle, there is no revival in 2019.
Basically there is traditional music and there is popular music which includes what we refer to as contemporary folk. Much of this contemporary music consists of producing a saleable sound especially amongst young performers here in Scotland. Regrettably much of the tradition is being pressed to this purpose, tunes and words battered beyond recognition, all suppressed by the interminable beat which seems to be compulsory.
I have a lot of sympathy with Mr Padgett's comment.... "as soon as folk audiences are invited to wave their arms in the air it is NOT folk".

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 04:19 AM

The adiscussion is jut mebinning and is now touching on the most important points
If you have nothing to say on the matter Ake, go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 04:26 AM

Brexit is a bit more important, Jim. Folk music will not ruin lives, businesses or the economy. Your analogy is fallacious.

As to the tomes of documented folk music. Are you really saying that unless it is in one of the books you mention, it is not folk music? If so, how can we ever get new folk music? Are we destined to sing the same songs for all eternity. If so, I must start to agree with the MP that said his idea of hell was a folk club!

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 04:42 AM

"Brexit is a bit more important, Jim. "
What kind of answer is that Dave ?
Ther removal of a large slice of worin history wil damage working people's perception of themselves forever
Brexit, whatever the ourtcome will pass into history like the memory of the bad fart it is
" Are you really saying that unless it is in one of the books you mention, it is not folk music"
Please do not distort my words Dave
I don't need a book to recognize a folk song - they are merely confirming records
We have talked inteminaly about making new songs using the old models - tyou suggestion is sheer dishonesty
I pointed out that you have no agreed definition - your silence and obvious evasion confirms that
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 05:08 AM

That people have to listen to the same song for eternity is the most ridiculous excuse ever
Do you know ham nay folk songs tht are no longer sung ?
Do you know how many new collections that have recently come available
If you are takling about folk songs as a genre - fair enough - if you don't like them don't get involved and certainly don't attempt to replace them
Shakespeare only wrote 37 plays yet he remains the most important and longest lasting playwright that ever lived - his pitiful number of plays have survived for centuries and there is no sign of tat ever changing
Our 305 traditional ballads are easily their equivalent - if not more so
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 05:35 AM

Jim,

If I am not mistaken you appear to be confusing Horton Barker with Hobart Smith.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 05:56 AM

"Horton Barker with Hobart Smith."
Possibly Hoot - memory for names is not what it was
Thank you
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:31 AM

I pointed out that you have no agreed definition - your silence and obvious evasion confirms that

I have told you many times what my definition of folk song is. What you call my silence is merely you disagreeing with it but here we go again. Folk song, to me, is any song with a story or meaning, sung unaccompanied or accompanied by traditional instruments, without electronic enhancement. This can be either traditional or contemporary. Copyright does not come in to it unless the song is recorded.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:32 AM

Sorry, I should have added sung in a traditional manner. It is not the content but the presentation that makes it folk.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:54 AM

Your definition goes directly against the things you have arfued for and is only partially true
A folk siong is a song made by the folk, and reprocessed by th e folk down the ages
The folk are no longer making songs so anything using folk techniques can only become folk songs when they are absorbed into a folk tradition
If they were what you are auging for there would be no problem - it isn't
"the storry and meaning bit is meaningless , most songs, from operatic arias to many pop songs have them

If this is what you want what in gods name are you talking about when you talk about "the same songs for all eternity"
Theer anr many thousands of folk song, most of those that were are no longer being sung - new collections are being made available regularly
I have a working repertoire of three hundred songs - folk an contemporary - if I was the one singing foull songs I could go on or a month without having to repeat myself
I haven't even begun to re-visit The Carpenter Collection yet
Last month I co-operated to with Rod Stradling to issue a collection of, as yet unheard Yorkshire folk songs
Rod has complained that he cant find customers for his collections - 3 purchases of a double album of Sam Larner - and I was one of those and you say I don't know what is happening on a perfectly healthy folk scene
If our secen is healthy - where is it and what is is singing
People here not only appear to not to sing it but some have advocated openly that it's had its day and it's time it shuffled off the scene and made room for something else
If you didn't agree with them, why didn't you say so instead of targeting my argument ?
As the old joke says, "you may claim to have bad eyesight, but your prick's pointing to West Point"
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:56 AM

We have just received the wonderful news that the National Sound Archive at the British Library had received a sizeable grant and wants to put our collection on line ............... At last people will be able to hear what Walter Pardon and Mikeen McCarthy, and Peggy Delaney and Mary Delaney..... and all those other wonderful people had so say about their songs - Jim Carroll.

Wonderful news, very pleased to hear that, well done Jim! It is good to see a real life example of belief and perseverance paying off.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 07:08 AM

You may disagree with it, Jim, but it is my definition. Why you say I have not given one when this is the umpteenth time is beyond me. Anyhow, hopefully, you will not say it again. So, next, how is that definition against anything I have said before? And if my definition is partly true, which bit(s) do you agree with?

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 08:32 AM

"You may disagree with it, Jim, but it is my definition. "
It isn't a definition Dave - it's your own take - the "personal view" you always accuse me of having
You have not responded to a single poing I have made or a single question I have asked - particularly on 'The Voice of The People'
It seems we are both wasting our time

Thanks Obbo
Haven't quite come down from it yet
The gilyt was added to the gingerbred last night when I got word from the National Sound Archive that they are interested in examining the large Singers Workshop archive I have had left in my care
Hope I can sober up before Belfast next week
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 09:17 AM

Sorry about the "poing" it should have been point but poing is a pretty fair description of the feeling contantly having your aumennts being bounced back without substantial response - sort of like throwing a ball against a stone wall
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 09:21 AM

It is a definition, Jim, regardless of what you say it is. It is how I define folk song and of course it is personal, it is mine. I don't expect anyone to abide by it or even agree with it. As Ray said earlier, "WE must NOT be led like a bull by its nose, folk music simply as stated by Folk music presenters is not always folk music". I would add that folk music simply as stated by anyone is not always the full picture either.

But I do not believe we are wasting our time. You said my definition was partly true and I asked which bit(s). Let's start from common ground and work up from there. I expect we will agree about a lot more than you think.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 10:03 AM

In order for something to be a 'definition' it has to be agreed on by others, otherwise people stop communicating with each other - which I think is what happened to us here
Sorry - you are shadow-boxing and evading the important points
Shame
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 10:15 AM

You asked for my definition, Jim. Not an agreed definition. Not anyone else's definition. You asked me to define folk music. I did. Now, which part of my definition do you think is true?

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 10:38 AM

Maybe if the 'folk' is still not revived, it's time to accept it's not going to.....

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 10:38 AM

"Not an agreed definition. "
Why do you think we are discussing this Dave - you have dismissed what I belive to be folk song as "my opinion" , yet you are now admitting that you are only giving yours
I don't want to fall out with you or anybody because our opinions differ, but I do care very much what is happening to the public face of folk song - the clubs
Are you honestly suggesting that any culture can thrive if it can't be defined and agreed on ?
I don't
Jim