BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 10 - 08:05 PM

By all means, pray elaborate.

You flatter yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 08:20 PM

You flatter yourself.

By all means, pray elaborate.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 May 10 - 09:44 PM

Most intelligent thing said in several days, Ebbie.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 10:21 PM

I totally agree, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 May 10 - 12:39 PM

So--still no proof from Mr. FO on his assertion.   It begins to look like he can't come up with any--and of course, has not the foggiest notion of the difference between probability and fact.

But, not willing to admit he has made a mistake, he goes down with his unseaworthy vessel--yet again.

I wonder if the tenure theory has any validity. Seems possible. Some colleges probably don't want ideological warriors on their faculty.   They prefer thinkers.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:59 PM

Unbelievable.

You don't even have to push Simple's buttons to push his buttons.

Dance, ballerina, dance.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:24 PM

Gee, Greg, don't you like my idea?    Nothing to get bent out of shape about--just pure speculation, like yours about my "Jesuit" background (have to say, I've never had that suggestion before).


And now it's your turn, ballerina.   Since it's obvious you have to say something--can't possibly let it go.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:36 PM

Simple seems unable to stem the flow.

Perhaps a dose of paregoric...

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:53 PM

Ah, kettle and pot! I see you've met!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM

At risk of repeating myself, . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:46 PM

Can we get back to Ethnic Studies and militant Hispanic teachers?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:54 PM

Why? Is there something that hasn't been said yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:42 AM

Just because I missed almost two weeks of this - and I'm not inclined to go back and reread 100 messages full of 5th grade level drivel - what do ethnic studies and militant Hispanic teachers have to to with one another? Under the Arizona law, off-reservation schools with large Indian student bodies (and there are some in both Arizona and New Mexico that aren't BIA-run) will not be allowed to teach, for example, Navajo. Brewer says that the law isn't directed toward one race (not that Hispanic is a race, of course), so surely Hispanic teachers can't be a target.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM

Brewer's edict is blatant racism and discrimination. It's a form of totalitarianism that is very dangerous for US democracy. As with Israel, a disinvestment strategy and boycott is necessary.

The police are losing credibility when they resort to totalitarian tactics to enforce the law.
Showing papers and prohibiting photographs are part of the new dangerous pattern.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:27 AM

Actually, there's nothing racist about it. It's an attempt by the state government to rein in racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM

Yes because teaching Navajo to your children is racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 12:26 PM

What an individual teaches to his/her own child is not the concern of a public school district. Arizona makes no attempt to intervene in those activities. They are only concerned about what takes place at public schools using tax-payer money. And they don't think tax revenue should be used to promote racism. That's all they're saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:40 PM

Yep - so let's have no Navajo taught in the public school.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:57 PM

If there's a school district that can fit Navajo into thier budget, fine. But you wouldn't be serving the students very well if you allowed it to replace algebra.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:18 PM

Can't do it under the new Arizona law, if you have the money or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM

Of course you can, Art. Read the law. You can't discriminate against another ethnic group, or a person from another ethnic group. You can't advocate the overthrow of the government, and you can't preclude a person from some other ethnic group from attending the class. Otherwise, the sky's the limit.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 07:18 PM

Oh. Then it's okay to teach Spanish? On we go then. No changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:17 PM

I read the law. From your original post: ""The measure signed Tuesday prohibits classes that advocate ethnic solidarity, that are designed primarily for students of a particular race or that promote resentment toward a certain ethnic group." Would you not agree that classes in Navajo are "designed primarily" for Navajo students who wish to speak their ancestral language? The point that someone else can enroll is not relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM

The point that someone else can enroll is relevant, because there is defacto segrigation in Hispanic ethnic studies programs now. If there were a few Anglos in the class, the instructor couldn't lead them down the primrose path.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:17 PM

But are they designed that way?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:25 AM

At issue is probably not so much a Navajo language class, which would probably be taught as an extra-curricular activity, if it was taught in the public classroom at all.

          Ethnic Studies programs that are designed to target Spanish speaking students are tailor made to the system because the students are already segregated by language. To that extent they are "by design" exclusionary.
          We all know how public schools work. If one is in a bilingual-education class for Language Arts, he/she will probably find himself in a similarly populated science class, math class, and etc., simply because that's the only way the schedule can be put together.
          Integrating classes with black students was easier because everyone pretty much spoke the same language.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:02 AM

I don't know in what way other schools differ but in Alaska an incoming non-English speaking student is 'main-streamed' as quickly as possible. They are not 'segregated' for all their classes nor for the whole school year.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:04 AM

If I lived in Arizona, I'd sure as heck want to learn Spanish.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:52 PM

"in Alaska an incoming non-English speaking student is 'main-streamed' as quickly as possible."


                In many places in Arizona, the majority of the students are non-English speaking. Their problems are greatly amplified.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:42 PM

I still think I would defer to Desert Dancer, who is the only one here, as far as I know, who has had a child in Tucson schools and says that isn't the way it works at all. Rig, are you still basing your condemnation of the status quo in Arizona on your experience as a substitute teacher in California many years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:08 PM

The Tucson public school system is 57% ethnic Mexican. Most of them are either here illegally from Mexico or their parents came here illegally.

By contrast, Maine, the whole state, has fewer than 1000 illegal Mexicans. They are not a problem.

Alaska has fewer the 5000 illegal Mexicans. Again, not a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:15 PM

The Tucson public school system is 57% ethnic Mexican. Most of them are either here illegally from Mexico or their parents came here illegally.

1. Please provide the specific citation for this statistic. Actually, since I don't doubt the first part, please provide an official statistic showing that 29% or more of the students are "either here illegally from Mexico or (whose) parents came here illegally".
2. Please provide the percentage of illegal students vs. the percentage who are US citizens by birth and whose parents may be, or may at one time have been, illegal immigrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:08 PM

Actually, regarding the number of illegals as it affects Ethnic Studies, is less important than the numbers who are, or are not fluent in English.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:45 PM

So, after all this time, Mr. FO has come up with precisely zero proof of his assertion. I can't tell you how surprised I am.


But still, this is it for me on this thread.    Despite the groundswell of popular opinion clamoring for the scintillating conversation between Mr FO and me to go on for several thousands more posts, I've found I do have something better to do with my time--like just about anything else.

It certainly has been a long strange trip--but enlightening in some ways.    Mr. FO neatly encapsulated his own problem--and the reason he's not likely to become reasonable any time soon--in his statement:   "history is pretty much how the preponderance of evidence comes down".

Hey, groovy, man.    Like, what's goin' down?

That explains his sloppy writing--and sloppy thinking.

History as "majority rules". A unique perspective--but one which fits an ideological warrior like his good self to a T.

Only problem is that it's pure drivel.

History is not "the preponderance of evidence".   That's not history--that's a theory. Once more with feeling:   there is a difference between a theory and a fact. And some questions are never answered.   Nor does a real historian, as opposed to a polemicist, try to squeeze the evidence into his straitjacket--while conveniently ignoring anything which does not fit the theory--and therefore announce his theory as a fact.

A historian will call a theory a theory, a probability by its name, and distinguish between these and a fact. And sometimes facts are hard to come by. That's just the way it is.

But I can't spend any more time on this thread. So Mr. FO wins--he gets the last word. Feel free, Mr. FO, to jump around again yelling "I won, I won".    Congratulations to you. Give yourself another big gold star.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:50 PM

And the actual topic of the thread, is, if anything, even more of a senseless black hole of time--as well as bearing an amazing resemblance not just to a dead horse--but one that's been mouldering away for several weeks.

Rig likes his conspiracy theories--especially ones which have to do with the "Brown Peril". It's not likely any contrary facts will penetrate his brain--because that's the way (uh-huh, uh-huh) he likes it.

So, adios to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:11 AM

Whew!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM

The paregoric obviously didn't work- a stubborn case. Perhaps loperamiode hydrochloride and some kaolin suspension?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:41 AM

Per Simple: So, adios to this thread...this is it for me on this thread.

'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wished.

( Adios until next time, that is. )

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:08 PM

At least we can get on with analysing Ethnic Studies, and how it has been hijacked in Arizona.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM

Who says it has? Not the only person here who has children in Arizona schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM

"Who says it has?"

            The voters in Arizona.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:52 PM

Have them come discuss with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:26 PM

I'll see what I can do, Mouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:46 PM

The voters in AZ? Has anyone voted on this except the AZ legislature? Missed it, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM

Yes, it's easy to miss things when one is not paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 09:24 PM

And the date of the state-wide referendum was when?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:15 PM

You don't get what "state-wide referendum" means, do you? You might as well say "the people of the United States" wanted the health care bill we got.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:40 PM

Sorry-I have to keep re-setting the cookie. That must be why my posts keep going away.

            The difference between the health care bill and the Arizona ethnic studies proposal is, after it passed, the voters polled a huge majority in favor of the Arizona bill, while voters are polling a majority against the health care bill.