BS: The smoking ban & pubs

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,O|' Smokey
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:23 PM

Jim - when exactly did I suggest you went to another pub?

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 05:59 AM

there are people that don't smoke and yet die of lung cancer so if they don't smoke why do they have lung cancer then.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:03 AM

in other words how does the smoke get into a non smokers lungs if they don't smoke

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:48 AM

Gr-r-r-r-ro-o-o-o-a-a-a-n-n-n-n-nnnnnnnnn!

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:28 AM

Good point Arran. There is NO solid evidence that non- smokers who die of lung cancer. No death certificate has ever recorded such a death.

There is plenty of evidence on the net that this theory is a myth.

This myth all seemed to start after the whinges of the like of Roy Castles who used this to go on about his illness.

Compare this to the dignity of George Harrison in his interviews prior to his death.

Then again Harrison was a talented musician, that is were the comparison stops.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:38 AM

No death certificate has ever recorded such a death.

Has an official death certificate every recorded death by smoking, driving, drinking or any other such underlying casue? I very much doubt it. I think you will find that the certificate records the actual cause (lung cancer, multiple injuries, liver failure etc.) Everyone (apart from Guest, Guest and occasionaly skipy) seems to accept that certain activities are proven to be major factors in those actual causes.

Looking more and more like a case of clutching at straws.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:44 AM

So People that don't smoke do not get lung cancer, and yet the people that do say it's a myth, the non smokers don't inhale second hand smoke so where does the smoke come from then, and as I have said before 12,000 people die thorugh inhaling second hand smoke and yet people that smoke says that this is not true, well proove it.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:46 AM

that's all I have to say because smelly smokers will continue to say its' a myth even when they have the evidance in front of them otherwise because they want to be prooved right, but as they say you have your views and I have mine.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:48 AM

The suggestion that passive smoking isn't a cause of lung cancer is nonsense, the kind of stuff that tobacco companies used to try to sell people about smoking not being carcinogenic, or Dubya and co pretending there wasn't overwhelming evidence about global warming, or that there was overwhelming evidence about Saddam having those WMDs - but for all that tobacco smoke isn't the only factor that causes lung cancer.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:09 AM

GUEST,Ol' Smokey

Snail, I didn't say you were confused,

Yes you did. I see that you have extended your policy of ignoring all facts and questions that don't fit your argument to your own posts.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:50 AM

this is from the BBC News BBC NEWS
Q&A: Passive smoking
Pressure is mounting for a total ban on smoking in public places.

An update to a major review by the Government-appointed Scientific Committee on Tobacco and Health (SCOTH) has highlighted the health risks associated with passive smoking.

The British Medical Association is among those who believe a ban would make a signficant contribution to public health.

However, opponents say it would be draconian and unnecesary.

BBC News Online examines the evidence.

What is passive smoking?

Simply, breathing in other people's tobacco smoke. This is made up of "sidestream" smoke from the burning tip of the cigarette, and "mainstream" smoke that has been inhaled and then exhaled by the smoker.

Sidestream smoke accounts for nearly 85% of the smoke in a room.

What's in the smoke?

Tobacco smoke contains over 4000 chemicals in the form of particles and gases.

The particulate phase includes tar, nicotine, benzene and benzo(a)pyrene.

The gas phase includes carbon monoxide, ammonia, dimethylnitrosamine, formaldehyde, hydrogen cyanide and acrolein.

It has been estimated that tobacco smoke contains as many as 60 substances which cause - or are suspected of causing - cancer.

And many irritate the tissues of the respiratory system.

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in the USA has classified environmental tobacco smoke as a class A carcinogen - ranking it alongside asbestos and arsenic.

What effect does it have on the passive smoker?

Breathing in other people's smoke can cause eye irritation, headache, cough, sore throat, dizziness and nausea. Just 30 minutes exposure can be enough to reduce blood flow through the heart.

There is also evidence to show that people with asthma can experience a significant decline in lung function when exposed.

Whether or not passive smoking can trigger new cases of asthma is a hotly debated issue.

What about in the longer term?

Non-smokers who are exposed to passive smoking in the home, have a 25% increased risk of heart disease and lung cancer.

Researchers from London's St George's Medical School and the Royal Free hospital have recently found when you include exposure to passive smoking in the workplace and public places the risk of coronary heart disease is increased by 50-60%.

A major review in 1998 by the Government-appointed Scientific Committee on Tobacco and Health (SCOTH) concluded that passive smoking is a cause of lung cancer and ischaemic heart disease in adult non-smokers, and a cause of respiratory disease, cot death, middle ear disease and asthmatic attacks in children.

There is also some evidence to suggest that passive smoking may affect children's mental development.

SCOTH has looked at the data since 1998 and concluded secondhand smoke is damaging.

However, it is true that the health risks of breathing in other people's tobacco smoke are much smaller than those posed by actually smoking.

And the pro-smoking lobby, including the campaigning group FOREST, argue that the case against passive smoking has never been properly proved.

They point to a study by the University of California published in the British Medical Journal which found that the link between environmental tobacco smoke and coronary heart disease and lung cancer may be considerably weaker than generally believed.

This in turn, is disputed by the anti-smoking lobby, which points out that after considering the BMJ study, the UK Government's Committee on Carcinogens and SCOTH still concluded that environmental tobacco smoke is carcinogenic, and responsible for several hundred deaths a year in the UK.

How widespread is passive smoking?

Of course, anybody who regularly frequents pubs or bars is inevitably going to breathe in a significant amount of tobacco smoke.

However, a survey by the anti-smoking charity ASH in 1999 found that about 3million people in the UK are exposed to passive smoke at work.

And it is also estimated that almost half of all children in the UK are exposed to tobacco smoke at home.

One study found that in households where both parents smoke, young children have a 72% increased risk of respiratory illnesses.

Research also shows that children whose parents smoke in the home are more likely to be admitted to hospital for bronchitis and pneumonia in the first year of life.

More than 17,000 children under the age of five are admitted to hospital every year because of the effects of passive smoking.

What do other countries do?

Banning smoking in public places is a highly controversial move, which has been resisted by the UK government so far.

However, some countries, including Ireland, Turkey and Norway, have accepted that a ban is the only way to tackle the problem of smoking effectively.

Despite concerns from the hospitality industry, the ban on smoking in public places in Ireland, which began in March this year, has not affected business, according to reports.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/health/medical_notes/3235820.stm

Published: 2004/10/18 14:46:53 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:59 AM

Arran, sorry I groaned after your post - I completely misunderstood your point (brain cells dying off from spending too much of my time inhaling smokers' filth in pubs over the years perhaps?). You are absolutely correct of course.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 10:34 AM

thank you very much

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 10:40 AM

Snail, I said you were confusing correlation with causation, not that you were confused. There is a difference. Perhaps I should have said 'mistaking correlation for causation', it would have been clearer. It should also have been read in conjuction with the other half of the sentence, which you appear to have completely ignored.

I have, at least at some point, answered all your comments except the one about being wrong about my overwhelming conviction that I am in the right - which really doesn't make any sense unless you are prepared to tell me what you think it is that I think I'm right about. Indeed, I have to confess to being a little confused myself over that one.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:12 AM

Sorry Arran, I misread you, didn't realise you were a troll for them.
I repeat, there is incontrovertible scientific evidence of harm to others.

Lord Harris of High Cross said that the many studies done worldwide have produced no reliable link between lifetime exposure to environmental tobacco smoke and lung cancer in non-smokers. He says the 'evidence' on passive smoking is based on nothing more substantial than "estimates, guesswork, subjective recollections and even gossip.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:56 AM

"He says the 'evidence' on passive smoking is based on nothing more substantial than "estimates, guesswork, subjective recollections and even gossip."

And what about the considerable amount of research and carefully-considered opinions of the top scientists and medical experts who have come out in droves to support the fact of the dangers of passive smoking? Does it also qualify, in your strangely-distorted Planet-Zog view of the world, as "estimates, guesswork, subjective recollections and even gossip."

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 12:16 PM

Ol' Smokey

They are not confused TS, they are presenting statistics. My remark was directed at you, not them.

Snail, I didn't say you were confused, you know that.

Snail, I said you were confusing correlation with causation, not that you were confused. There is a difference.

OK, now I AM confused. What have I said that makes you think I'm confusing correlation with causation? As I said, I just passed on the links.

It should also have been read in conjuction with the other half of the sentence

You mean the bit where you said "please note I have never claimed that smoking is safe."? You've certainly expressed considerable scepticism on the evidence that it is -

Pardon my pedantry, but there is no evidence whatsoever that lung cancer is caused by smoking, merely that you stand a greater chance of dying from it if you smoke.
There is no argument - no-one has ever produced actual evidence of passive smoking being fatal.

I have, at least at some point, answered all your comments except the one about being wrong about my overwhelming conviction that I am in the right

Yeah, I was getting a bit lazy there. I'd really covered it in the first two points about denial and self-justification which you don't seem to be contesting.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 12:38 PM

Ok Snail, you just passed on the links. I mistakenly assumed you thought you were presenting hard evidence and proof. For the elimination of doubt, when I use the word 'evidence', I mean it in the literal sense, as in its legal usage. I stand by everything else you've quoted, but I recommend you read it more carefully. I've already dealt with denial and self justification.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: redsnapper
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 12:52 PM

According to the World Health Organization's International Agency for Research on Cancer there is "sufficient evidence that involuntary smoking (exposure to secondhand or "environmental" tobacco smoke) causes lung cancer in humans.

Those are heavyweight experts in my opinion.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 12:58 PM

so where is the proof that passive smoking doesn't kill according to the smokers anyway

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 01:09 PM

The big tobacco companies have come out with reams of material to justify their position. Theirs is not hard evidence either; there is no right and wrong where statistics are concerned, just a highly debatable level of likelihood. None of us, not even the scientists, can rightfully presume to know one way or the other for certain.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 01:58 PM

But scientists and medical experts don't have financial gain as their driving force, unlike the tobacco companies.

Anyone with at least one functioning brain-cell would place a great deal more faith in the scientific and medical men's judgments than in 'statistics' and 'evidence' from the tobacco companies, in whose interests it is to persuade the gullible fools we keep hearing from on here that smoking, including passive smoking, is harmless.

BTW Ol' Smokey, Skipy and GUEST,Guest, are you one and the same?

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Alice
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:06 PM

From the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA, US) the top three causes of lung cancer are smoking, radon, and second hand smoke.

http://www.epa.gov/radon/healthrisks.html

"Secondhand smoke is the third leading cause of lung cancer and responsible for an estimated 3,000 lung cancer deaths every year."

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Alice
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:17 PM

From the American Lung Association

How can you prevent cancer
quote
"If you are a nonsmoker, know your rights to a smoke-free environment at work and in public places. Make your home smoke-free."

http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=35427#prevent

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM

All working scientists and medical experts get paid by someone.

For the record, I do not profess to know whether or not passive smoking is harmless.

We are not all the same, but ask yourself how much difference it would make if we were.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Alice
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:28 PM

Ask someone in chemotherapy if they wished they had prevented cancer.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:35 PM

Ol' Smokey

For the elimination of doubt, when I use the word 'evidence', I mean it in the literal sense, as in its legal usage.

The problem is that, because smoking has been around for hundreds of years, the burden of proof falls on those who see it as a killer. Were it a modern introduction, it would never make it into the shop.

None of us, not even the scientists, can rightfully presume to know one way or the other for certain.

Ultimately, all science is a correlation of observed data and theory. One day all the beer in your glass may spontaneously leap upwards but don't bet your life on it. You are betting your life on your statement that there is no evidence whatsoever that lung cancer is caused by smoking. You are betting other people's lives on the idea that no-one has ever produced actual evidence of passive smoking being fatal.

Have a read of this -
http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/healthyliving/smokingandtobacco/howdoweknow/#Deaths

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:39 PM

Lord Harris of High Cross said that the many studies done worldwide have produced no reliable link between lifetime exposure to environmental tobacco smoke and lung cancer in non-smokers. He says the 'evidence' on passive smoking is based on nothing more substantial than "estimates, guesswork, subjective recollections and even gossip.

Obituary of Lord Harris of High Cross: "...the high priest of the libertarian right, whose creed included full-blooded monetarism, the unleashing of market forces, sharp tax cuts, unrestricted Sunday trading, the castration of trade unions and the abolition of minimum wages, nationalised industries and inflation-proof pensions. In 1979 Margaret Thatcher made him her first peer."

Clearly someone whom we should all treat as a highly reliable sourece of guidance on these matters...

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:42 PM

my sister smokes and yet she knows the dangers of smoking and yet Skipy and Old Smoky don't

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 03:01 PM

Snail, buy yourself a dictionary, and at least quote my sentences in full and in context if you're going to insist on continuing this pointless conversation. It isn't my job or my mission to educate you.

You are quite right that if tobacco were 'invented' today, it would not be legal - by the same token neither would alcohol, therefore there would be no pubs at all.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Alice
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 03:17 PM

This thread made me think about businesses and activities that have disappeared or changed because of their danger. Hatters used to use mercury, which they do not any more. Miners have more safety equipment now than they did in the past. We don't use lead water pipes or make lead paint any more. Things change. We have more information and experience as time goes by, and that affects businesses and the way we live. My university education in painting was in the early 70's. There are toxic pigments in some paints that are not sold any more. I used to breathe in lots of fumes in painting and print making, not realizing the danger. Once we have the information about risks, it will affect business and behavior. Can you put a price on human life to keep a business from closing?

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 03:39 PM

You're a lost cause, Ol' Smokey. I hope you live to a ripe and healthy old age....but there's a fair (statistical) chance that you won't. At least, by giving up your social life in favour of the weed, you won't harm anyone else.

Goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 04:09 PM

That is very true Alice. There is a lot more information now than ever there was.

2001 It was considered safe for a pregnant woman to drink one glass of red wine.

2008, the same people who said that retracted it.

Just as they did regarding eggs and reversed that too. Also tinned Tuna fish.

Alice, the generation before us seemed to get through fine, hard to believe all those people in their eighties and nineties today survived through that age. Eating food without sell by dates and living in dangerously painted houses and sitting in smokey pubs.

Sometimes the nanny state isn't always for the best.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Alice
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 04:33 PM

Guest, that is quite a rationalization.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 05:41 PM

lets get a few facts about me straight in this!

1 I believe smoking IS lethal!
2 I DO NOT want to smoke in an area where it offends / endangers others!
3 ALL I have asked for ALL along is that if 20-30% of us smoke, then 20-30% of venues should be smoking.

& NO, I do not have a workable plan for how that can be carried out, but there are others out there that could take this on, who are paid to plan.

My life has just about been destroyed by this law, I now have no friends that I see anymore, nowhere to relax, no hobbies, no committment to my comunity, so little or no fulfillment in life whilst others love to take the piss!

I look fwd. to the day that a gloating non smoker needs my help!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 05:49 PM

Skipy - but you are still running a WHFF festival in August, aren't you?

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 05:52 PM

Yes, but as last year, I will not set foot in any of the venues, it will run as normal with me sat in the car parks, no one noticed that I was not seen a venue, this year will be no differant, I can still conduct from outside.
No worries no changes.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 05:54 PM

Skipy, you have a life threatening addiction which, on your own admission, is destroying your life. That is nobody else's fault. You can still break free. Seek help.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 05:56 PM

Snail with all due respect, I DO NOT want to stop smoking, my resolve to continue has been hightened by my "so called" friends in here!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:18 PM

Skipy, I expect I am not alone in wishing you well- or better, anyway. Deciding to limit your life in this way is sad.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:26 PM

Skipy, I hope you realise that my piss taking wasn't/isn't aimed at you - I admire your stance and resilience in the face of all this hypocrisy and victimisation. Good luck with all you do.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:26 PM

Ebbie, you ARE almost alone, most catters want me dead anyway, so thank you for your support, I will carry on as I am hoping to see my fine sons through uni. but no one lives forever, our country lost to of it's finest sons today via the taliban, 5 killed yesterday in an aircraft crash & who knows how many on the roads! Each day is a bonus.
Skipy
Quite depressed in a white wine sauce, not able to go into pubs or folk clubs of attend venues at festivals anymore, a lifetime wasted

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:28 PM

Skipy

Snail with all due respect, I DO NOT want to stop smoking

Fine, but that is your choice. Don't try and blame others for the consequences. It is sad that the good work that I understand that you do is less important to you than your addiction.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:33 PM

I don't, won't & never have tried to blame others, it is my choice, always has been & always will be! But I must fight my corner.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 07:00 PM

Skipy

I don't, won't & never have tried to blame others, it is my choice, always has been & always will be!

This ban has basically ruined my life

Blaming the ban. No, it is your addiction that has ruined your life.

tonight I resigned, non smoker required to take my place!

So others are at fault for forcing you to resign, not your addiction?

My life has just about been destroyed by this law, I now have no friends that I see anymore, nowhere to relax, no hobbies, no committment to my comunity, so little or no fulfillment in life whilst others love to take the piss!

No. Your life has been ruined by your addiction.

Quite depressed in a white wine sauce, not able to go into pubs or folk clubs of attend venues at festivals anymore, a lifetime wasted

Your choice, Skipy, your choice. Stop complaining.

But I must fight my corner.

You are fighting against yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 07:11 PM

I am NOT complaining, just fighting my corner, perhaps you should try giving something up, that is if you do anything other than type! Or perhaps have others try & take your life from you!
Maybe then you would understand or at least try to! Perhaps a law to totally ban instruments & song from pubs, maybe that would cause you a problem, instruments don't cause a health problem you will say, but they sure as hell piss a lot of poeple off without a doubt!
You are parry to info. that you are trusted not to share, or will you?
You have a bayonet between my ribs, you have twisted it, will you now fire a round to extricate? Against the Geneva convention unless your life or the lives of others in your charge are under threat! Your call.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 07:35 PM

most catters want me dead anyway Absolute undiluted rubbish.

So you have to do without smoking in the course of some indoor activities? Nothing new about that, it's just that the range of activities is a bit wider than it was a few months ago. Church goers, for example, have always had to do without smoking during services, and I've never heard anyone complain about that in those kind of terms. I've never in my life heard of a public library where smoking was allowed. It's a good few years since it was possible to go to the cinema and smoke at the same time. Or travel by public transport for that matter.

As I've indicated, I think it's stupid and unfair for people to go on in hectoring terms about smoking, and I'd be happy to have a situation in which there where some smokeasies around. I quite understand if people wish to campaign for some relaxation in those terms. But self indulgent and self dramatising rubbish like "You have a bayonet between my ribs, you have twisted it" - come off it, it's just silly. Have a smoke and calm down.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 07:51 PM

Skipy

I am NOT complaining, just fighting my corner, perhaps you should try giving something up, that is if you do anything other than type! Or perhaps have others try & take your life from you!

Very well. It's none of your flaming business, but, on the 16th December I was diagnosed diabetic. Merry Christmas. I have had to give up a lot that I took for granted and it isn't easy. I have to do it in order to preserve my health and prolong my life. I have no intention of blaming the doctors for ruining my life nor will I make demands on others that they should share in my problems. I do not resent those who are free to eat chocolate and pour sugar on their puddings. I intend to continue to enjoy my music and my folk club and my social life rather than retreating into my corner and barking at passing strangers as you seem to be doing.

You are parry to info. that you are trusted not to share, or will you?

What? Lost me there.

You have a bayonet between my ribs, you have twisted it, will you now fire a round to extricate? Against the Geneva convention unless your life or the lives of others in your charge are under threat! Your call.

You started this thread, Skipy, on the false premise that you were concerned about the future of pubs under the smoking ban.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:17 PM

Why don't you go and watch a bullfight Snail? You'd enjoy that.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:51 PM

"most catters want me dead anyway"

Skipy, most 'catters (certainly THIS 'catter!) want you alive, and free of the deep addiction that's clearly made your life a living death, and is at the root of the serious depression you seem to be in, judging by some of the hysterical stuff you post.

Dump those cancer-sticks and get a life - YOUR life, get it back, it's never too late. Nobody is losing here except YOU, and it's all your own doing. No good squealing like a stuck pig at everybody else, you've made the choices yourself - live with it or DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!

You have it within your power to break free from the chains of addiction which are taking away your social life and turning you into a paranoid wreck. Get help and get it NOW.

I wish you nothing but good fortune, you're in my prayers.