I walked out of session

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Beer
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:42 AM

Shaneo.
Great site. Thank you.
Beer

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Fliss
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:42 AM

We are very lucky with our session at the Boat Inn, Jackfield.

The musicians have played Irish Music there for over 20 years. There has been a succession of landlords who have made the session welcome.

We take over on a Thursday night; move the furniture around, repel all boarders to make sure that musicians are seated. We have a tot of Irish Whiskey about half way thru the session - courtesy of the pub.

The smokers have been pursuaded to smoke outside (as in Ireland), which makes it so much nicer for those playing flutes, whistles and singing.

In return for the hospitality we list the session on all folk sites.

So cheers to the landlord and staff.

And merry Christmas from a very soggy Boat Inn... see my thread on Submerged Session!

fliss

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:56 AM

It just goes to show that the more that they know
The less some folk understand.
Their head can get stuck up their ass and bad luck
Will lead them to hell by the hand.
The same ones purport that life is too short
For anger and venom and bile.
Don't spoil for a fight and stop talking shite
And smile you sad buggers, just smile.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 10:09 AM

I'm so pleased with the result of my operation that even Clinton Hammond can't throw enough cold water to dampen my spirits. I thank everyone who offered prayers to the Great Spirit to assist with my healing.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: gnu
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 03:29 PM

Hey, Kendall. SHUT UP... for two more days, anyway! Hey, bud, we all know Clint ain't worth wastin yer breath on. And, anyone knows you knows that. Ya don't have to know Clint to know, ya know... most know.

So glad to hear things went well. Thay had to. The Great Spirit woulda got his ass kiced by one helluva lotta people! You just take care and "walk slow", eh.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 03:42 PM

(Nothing worse than having your ass kiced!).

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 04:45 PM

Great stuff Fliss--that's how it should be!


Shaneo, respect! GREAT site, keep it up!


Clinton Hammond (10,149 submissions to Mudcat to now) needs to grow up. Why not spend your time more productively by playing a little music and entertaining people (that is, if you are capable of doing so!)?


Kendall (13,496 submissions to Mudcat to now) should know better than to waste bandwith by bickering with Clinton.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 04:56 PM

FOR GODS SAKE GET A LIFE

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 04:56 PM

Enter gnu, he's escaped from the zoo,
A renegade wilderbeast.
Saying, "Ya don't have to know Clint to know, ya know,"
That much is clear at least.
Without fear or stint he's saying that Clint
Ain't worth pissing on if he caught fire.
Curious advice, which ain't very nice,
The Great Spirit would find it quite dire.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 05:26 PM

The part where Clinton chose to take offence, where pretty clearly none was intended, and this thread turned nasty:

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall - PM
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 04:46 PM

I wish I'd been there to walk out with you.
If a performer is so needy that he/she will put up with any disrespect then that's their business. It's pathetic, but still their business.

Post - Top - Forum Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: ClintonHammond - PM
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 05:12 PM

That's pretty rich coming from you Kendall

Or do you really think the sun shines out your arse?
..................

I suppose he must have thought that kendall's comment referred to him, rather than to Shaneo's mates who didn't walk out.

Sometimes it can be worth actually listening to the songs we sing:

life's too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
Too short not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate...

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 07:54 PM

Gulliver is right, and I do know better, but I just can't figure out why he has the knife out for me. Things that I don't understand bug me.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Effsee
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:36 PM

Hey Kendall, don't take it personal, he's just like a rabid dog, takes a bite at anyone who just happens to be passing! Sad case really.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:43 PM

Kendall,

Listen up because I intend to say this just once: You ain't gotta prove jackshit to no one!

Also, you take good care of that throat. There's more CDs in there, and I expect to hear 'em in THIS lifetime.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 10:37 PM

OK Kendall. Here is the explanation.
When one can not get attention for one's accomplishments, one chooses to use foul language, lash out with imbecilic nonsense, and then declare either that you misunderstood or they don't care what you think.
You, of course, are accomplished, world famous, incredibly sexy, and beloved by people whose opinion counts. Therein lies the rub.
The insecure among us justify their own existence by trying to convince the forum (and themselves) that you are out of date, out of music, and arrogant. Those who know you are amused at these comments.
Instead of arguing with the sound and the fury, pity it and move on. You are better than this petty crap.
You are loved and treasured. Enjoy it.

As for walking out of a session - when the smoke and noise get to be too much, I go. A session is not a paying gig, though. Kendall, I know you have walked out of circles and sessions when the noise or the rudeness is just too much. Have you ever walked off a stage? Or out of a paying gig?
Just curious.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: number 6
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 01:26 AM

Jeeeezuz Kendall ... just ignore the guy.

You have established and proven your talent ... and you are respected and admired for it. No need to feel a few cheap jibes will make us think otherwise.

biLL

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 04:44 AM

Kendall's confused and slightly bemused
And can't understand Clints' obsession,
He's taken aback by the barrage of flack
That's got nothing to do with the session.
His friends rally round, they're as sound as a pound,
They counter the sound and the fury,
So, Clinton take heed, your words and your deeds
Ain't goin' down too well with this jury.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Beer
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:18 AM

Hay Guest! Reveal yourself. You got talent.
Beer

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:41 AM

Yes indeed. Show yourself.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:50 AM

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 01:34 PM

Mary, it's scary, you're so contrary
And the curtain must surely stay closed.
To avoid distortion, your words of caution
Can only be supposed.
Contentment is wealth and so is good health
Nothing in life is more certain,
Kendall and Beer, I wish you good cheer
From the man behind the curtain.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 01:36 PM

I need a young priest and an old priest!

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Soldier boy
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:41 AM

GOOD GRIEF CHARLIE BROWN - WHAT'S GOING ON HERE ???

I've just read all the way through this thread and what started out as a really good thread has been hijacked by a small minority engaging in a very dirty, and frankly childish, Catfight.

CLINTON HAMMOND and GUEST (hiding behind his cowardly curtain of anonymity) GET OFF THE THREAD so that decent and respectable people can engage in civilised conversation and contributions.

CH - You come across as a very very twisted,blistered and bitter old man. You dribble your poison and venom all over the page and INFECT threads like a bubonic plague virus. You fill the room with your bile and spittle and bad cerebral breath.
What happened to you? Are you sick?

GUEST - you are nearly as bad as CH. Are you his alter ego or are you actually CH spewing further bile under another tormented guise? And where is all this gush of poetic diarrhoea coming from?
I thought this was a Mudcat thread about folk sessions for debate and discussion - not poets corner!!

By the way, I am suprised that the 'Mudcat Police' have not spotted your collective outpourings of filth and misuse of the queens language and scrubbed you off the site.
Where are the police when you need them?

To every other polite and reasonable soul I implore you to simply ignore the poison dwarfs (in the mental sense). Simply pay no heed to them and do not allow them to rankle you. Any response to them will only feed their over-inflated and blood-sucking egos.
Nasty attention-seeking poor souls like this HATE TO BE IGNORED. It cuts off their blood supply and lust for spreading their venom.
They will eventually dry up and wither away back into the ether if you do not respond to them.
It's a bit like picking an irritating scab, if you can stop yourself from picking it it will heal up and go away soon enough.

THis is a good thread and one worth saving to receive many more decent,informative and fair contributions.
So let's draw a line here and DO NOT REPLY AT ALL TO ANY MESSAGES FROM CLINTON HAMMOND AND GUEST. Man, that won't half p... them off!

I fully support and agree with the right to 'Freedom of Speech' but they have over stepped the mark of decency and showing respect for others. I vote for freedom from speech which is heavily tainted with insult, bigotry, foul language and undisguised hate.
It has no place here.

Nuff said











Nuff said. Thank you.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 09:27 AM

Walking out of a session? Well, that's better nor being kicked out, innit! :-)

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Shaneo
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 09:58 AM

Much better than being kicked out , but I still think the songs we learn over the years deserve a bit of respect.
We never try to domineer a pub/club when we play ,when people go to a session on for example a regular Monday night they go to hear music not television.
We play unplugged for the most part except the low whistle player who brings a small amp.
I am sick and tired of televisions blaring away when nobody is even watching them.
Instead of banning smoking in pubs the television should have been dumped in the skip.
From the time the smoking ban was introduced in Ireland 600 pubs have closed , maybe if the publicans put on a bit of entertainment for the punters they would be still open.
So I say ditch the television and bring back real entertainment in pubs , eg. real musicians playing real music and not some 2 piece outfit with backing discs [feckin karaoke merchants]

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 10:08 AM

Problem is, quite often the locals aren't really interested in folk music but do want the television or the juke box.

We had this problem in a venue that we used - we were in the unused dining area that opened omnto the bar and after a few months were told that we could no longer use that area as the landlord was going to start doing evening meals. I don't think he ever did - it was more that his regular customers didn't want us there. That happened at a couple of venues and the regulars are the pub's bread and butter. They do pay the piper (or not - as the case should be)

Unfortunately the music we like ain't mainstream and you have to find a landlord with a liking for the music. Our group ended up in what used to be the Conservative club - now members only but allowing the group to use the dining area on a Wednesday night, when they had very little custom. It meant that there was less chance of outsiders finding the session by chance but did mean that there could be a regular session without disturbance.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 10:20 AM

I agree, if the regulars don't like the music then you might as well pack up and find another venue. Easier said than done, but don't give up!

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 11:42 AM

With you again Shaneo.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 12:11 PM

If you want to watch the telly it's much easier stopping at home to do it. Football matches and such are the exception, I suppose, where a bit of a crowd adds something.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Shaneo
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 12:26 PM

But the regulars do want the music and some even bring along instruments to join in , it's the pub management or bar staff that seem to have a problem , the bar staff being aged twenty something and not into the folk music and the punters being mostly over forty years old having grown up with folk/ballads.
We have come across this reaction once before in our local G.A.A. club[Irish football] where the staff were much younger that the punters ,again the customers wanted us to be there but the bar staff did not , and again they used the television to drive us away by leaving the sound up too high.we were asked back but declined .

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 12:39 PM

It's a shame that staff are dictating to the people who pay their wages what is and isn't acceptable. I used to do pub work in the 70s and as far as my landlady was concerned the customer could do no wrong. Obviously those that got right out of line were dealt with but, in general, Sylivie had the attitude 'give the customer what they want and you'll stay in business'. If we had behaved in the way thses peole are doing we would have been out of a job in two seconds flat!

It seems it needs a push by the punters to say - give us what WE want or we go elsewhere.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Peace
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 01:22 PM

Hey. I have walked out of a few over the years. Crawled out of a few others.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Soldier boy
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 01:24 PM

I have talked to some landlords/landladies who are not keen to host or encourage folk sessions in their pubs and clubs.
The reason they give is that they have tried it in the past but sold very little beer/lager etc. Musician sessions,they say, are the worst culprits as they play and play all night and nurse half a pint for two hours or more.
Singers sessions,it seems, have fared better because they seem to attract more hearty (and heavy) drinkers but if they don't attract and actively encourage a sizeable (drinking) audience then it's a commercial numbers game again and landlords can pull the plug because of poor profit margins.
Unfortunately that's business and it is a sign of our times.

If you can find a great venue with seperate and distinct rooms, a friendly and supportive landlord AND locals, no juke box or TV, great real ale and a regular shedule for weekly/monthly sessions -
HANG ON TO IT WITH YOUR LIFE !!

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 03:44 PM

That's right - if the punters want the music and the management don't it's time for you all to move on.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 04:14 PM

Soldier boy, they are interesting points.

There's another side to the coin too, though. There's a pub in Dublin that's ideal for a session, because the room where the musicians play is partitioned off, so the music isn't heard by the punters who may be watching television, and vice versa. The small group of musicians who meet there are very good, but they tend to play tunes (Irish) or songs (American--sixties or old timey) that hardly anybody knows, and they do not encourage others to join in--THEY are the performers. So what could be an interesting evening ends up with just the 3 or so musicians in a corner playing to themselves, which is a waste of good talent and of a good venue (in my opinion).

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 04:20 PM

Hmm, this idea probably requires a program re-write, as it is drawn from the chat room. Every time ol' Clint gets his meds out of kilter and gets bilious in there, there is an 'ignore' button, and the chat room participant is immume from his ranting at the click of a merciful button.

If this could be rolled out in the main Forum program, one could choose not to read Guest, Clint, Shambles (although I don't personally think old Rog is the spawn of Satan) or whoever gets on your tits.

This has probably been thought of many times before, and I have an original idea every Sheffield flood, but it is great fun starving 'oh so outrageous' posters the oxygen of publicity on your screen, or having to consume their vomit.

Pyrrhic or not, it is your victory, Shaneo.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 04:30 PM

Hey, you can always CHOOSE not to read his posts. Why do you need a magic button to exclude them from offending your delicate sensibilities.

If you include more singalongs (which means doing a lot of the more boring standards... sorry, you folks who like to show off your obscure discoveries) people tend to pour more beverage down their throats, which makes you more welcome to the venue and the clientele.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Declan
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 04:56 PM

Gulliver,

I don't agree with your post at all. The musicians who play in the session are the ones who decide what to play. It is not a waste of the room, they are having the session they want to have. Sessions are not generally performances for audiences.   They are primarily for the musicains who play in them, but a lot of people love to go along and listen to that. There are loads of places in Dublin you'll find sing alongs. If thats what you want go to those places. If this sounds elitist then so be it.

Soldier boy your generalisation about tunes palyers, as with most generalisations is suspect at best. I know lots of them who will oblige by necking drink down all night and lots of people who go to hear them who do likewise.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Rowan
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 05:03 PM

I can't speak about Dublin sessions but there is a habit among afficionados of Irish music that seems (to me) to be both unfortunate and widespread. Gulliver describes a version of it. In its more moderate expressions it allows participants to concentrate on technique and repertoire but in its more extreme manifestations it comes across as reactionary exclusivist and nasty.

That said, I've experienced pubs in Australia (mostly Canberra, at the time dominated by extreme middle classes) where singing was forbidden on the grounds that it started fights. But they invited our bush band to play regular gigs for a while, after which a session did get going for a few years.

And, when Ansett was still an airline, it used to be a common practice that folkies would gather at the train station or airport for a session to farewell one of their number who was leaving for any great length of time. There'd be long set dances down the station platform and lots of singing. At Canberra Airport, the TAA staff (I'm showing my age here) welcomed singing and music but the Ansett staff prohibited both. There was one celebrated Christmas where people had come from Melbourne and Sydney to sing carols in a major get-together. Afterwards, at the airport, we needed drinks (available from the bar) but the bat staff vetoed singing. We were allowed to sing outside the bar but not drink there. The bar door was in the TAA section so we compromised by standing outside the door, singing, while holding our drinks across the threshold in the bar area. We didn't interrupt customers, many of whom joined in the fun and, while it's not quite the type of session that started the thread, I though some of you may welcome discussion that (vaguely) centred on its topic.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 06:05 PM

Declan wrote:

they are having the session they want to have

Yes, that's correct and that's their right. I just think that if they weren't so exclusive,
a lot of people would enjoy going there even just to listen (and they are quite good),
but judging by the emptiness of the room, visitors (musical and non-musical) seem put off
by their attitude (like me) and don't come back.

It's only a matter of time before the landlord will find a better use for this room and that will be the end of it...

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Charlie Brown
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 06:14 PM

"I vote for freedom from speech which is heavily tainted with insult, bigotry, foul language and undisguised hate. It has no place here."

Rules out most of your post then Soldier boy!

That's the best example of what you don't want that I have read.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 06:18 PM

extreme middle classes

That's a new one on me. It could mean a lot of different things - here it clearly means respectable, but I can think of a few where the extreme would be far from that.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 06:26 PM

"extreme middle classes"

bigotry?

Insult?

undisguised hate?

Take your pick.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Soldier boy
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:11 PM

I fully endorse what you say Cluin,Gulliver and Scrump.
I guess it all depends on WHY the musicians/singers are in a pub/club in the first place.
If they are a small clique of folkie friends/associates who just want to get together to have a "Pivate" acoustic session then,with the agreement of the landlord/lady,they should hole up in a secluded room well away from the main bar area and just entertain themselves.

If,however they are there at the behest of the owner/landlord as an attraction/treat for his clientelle they should perhaps be centre stage in the main bar or in a room big enough for the musicians/singers AND interested/participating members of the 'public'.
This will only work though if the 'folk session' includes a generous amount of "the more boring standards"(Cluin)which are well known chorus songs that joe public will want to tap his foot to and maybe even join in with. So every one has a good time,drinks lots of beer (So the landlord is also happy!)and go away to tell friends and family what a great time they had.
Actually I don't agree that the standard favourites are boring. These are the ones that an 'audience' will expect and want to hear.
You can always interject some of the more obscure and throat-cutting tunes/songs but leave the standard favourites out at your peril.
As Cluin says this makes you more welcome to the venue and clientele
and also very importantly it shows that you are welcoming and happy to encourage others to learn songs and join in.
If you 'exclude' people it is then that you will have a battle with the background din of disinterested people,TVs,juke boxes and any other form of sabotage that you most probably deserve.
Folk sessions and the folk tradition as a whole was never intended to be a 'private' party turning its back on and excluding the majority. Is for everyone and the more people that are encouraged to play,sing,or just join in with the folk fraternity,the better.

Shaneo, I don't know if the place you walked out of invited you to have a session there or not and I agree that "most pubs will show respect for the musicians and switch off the TV etc" BUT ONLY IF:
* You are welcome/invited by the ownwer/landlord and have checked your position with any new owners.
*You manage to keep the clientele interested and don't just have endless 'twiddley dee' of just musicians for hours on end because joe public will soon lose interest and attention and ask for the TV to be turned up.
*You therefore break up the session to include playing/singing those very traditional and popular songs that (most) people want to hear.
*You spend some money at the bar.
People will most definately turn their backs on real/live music if it 'all sounds the same'(musical wallpaper),has become boring and so they have lost all interest.

If the pub/club venue is not flexible and you are not flexible it isn't going to work. You can't just engage in battle and play/sing louder to compete with TV,chatter,juke box etc.
The only thing you can do is pack up your instruments and voices and seek out a new venue where hopefully it will work out to everyones advantage.
But whilst packing up your instruments sometimes it might be worth asking:
-What went wrong?
-Were we actually welcome there in the first place?
-Did we engage and involve the public/clientele?
-Why did they lose interest?
-How could we change things and be more flexible in our approach so we are less exclusive/private?
-Has it been worthwhile to the owner/landlord in terms of increased custom from customers?
-Did we spend much money over the bar or are we still labelled as "they don't drink enough" brigade?
-Is there a better location in the pub where if we are not wanted by the pubs customers we can be less intrusive and away from TVs etc.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience Shaneo and wish you every good luck and good hunting in your search.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:20 PM

If you are in effect providing free enertainment, you shouldn't be expected to buy lots of drinks as well. Any self-respecting publican will give you at least one free drink (each) in those circumstances.

If you are NOT in effect providing free enertainment, then it's a different matter ...

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Declan
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:11 PM

Soldier Boy,

The phrase endless "Twiddley Dee" tells it all. You don't like a night of Irish Traditional tunes, and want it to be an entertainment.

That is fine, but if this is intended to be a traditional Irish session in a Dublin pub, then that means a night of tunes, with maybe a few songs if the musicians want that.

There are venues that have sing songs and that is fine, there are sessions with a mix of songs and tunes, and I love them. But a night of traditional tunes is what a lot of people want. Anyone who understands the music knows its more than "Twiddley Dee" and if you don't go somewhere else. It's that simple!

By the way, based on the set list, Shaneo's group obviously do mostly songs with a few tunes thrown in, so they don't fit into that category, and most of what they do are crowd pleasers, including having gusests from the audience. So the argument about just playing tunes doesn't apply to them.

But if a session is there as a tunes session, that is a perfectly valid thing to do, and if there are good musicians in the session I and many others would prefer that for the whole night to a crowd of drunks singing the fields of Athen feckin' Ry yet again. And no-one need apologise for that.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:24 PM

Yes, but we've all seen/heard those sessions dominated by a few who endlessly play tunes only they know, plus throw in a couple that sound the same except for one or two notes difference or else they play the same tune in a different key and go through it about 20 times. The novelty wears off listening to these people jack off fairly quickly.

Maybe your sessions are different, but believe me it's a different view from the outside.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Soldier boy
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 10:07 PM

Precisely Cluin. Thats what I meant when I clumsily said "Twiddley Dee" music. I did not mean to be disparaging to traditional Irish tunes because I love them and can listen to them for hours.

BUT where I was trying to come from was from the perspective of the listening public/a pubs clientel etc. I am also putting myself in the shoes of the English public I have talked to and witnessed at festivals all over England especially on the 'fringe'and mainly in pubs - and not typical sessions in a Dublin pub.
I have been to Dublin and other parts of Ireland and would agree that what you will find is mostly musician sessions,often of a very high standard indeed ( even some sessions churned out endlessly for English and American tourists!).

I apologise for not making it clearer in my last posting but I really was trying to convey the impression and mind set of Joe public. Sometimes we can become so insular and clique that we lose or don't care about what others think about or perceive of our music. Whilst we might love it to bits and become consumed in a session of music you have to maintain the interest of Joe public if that is what you are there for.

Attention spans soon waine if not kept engaged and interested and if not they will quickly turn their backs and talk amongst themselves.
That's all I was saying. It is indeed "a different view from the outside"(thanks Cluin)

And yes GUEST,meself If you are providing free entertainment it is only fair that you don't have to buy loads of drinks and should get one or even two free drinks from the bar and maybe some free sandwiches or even hot pork pies and mushy peas (in Yorkshire.)

The main gripe I have heard from publicans is directed at mainly wholly musician sessions where they are not paid to "perform" to an audience but take over a room and play just to themselves and do not welcome intrusion from strangers.
Of such gatherings a Yorkshire publican and good friend of mine very recently said (quote) "They buy bugger all at the bar and I'm seriously considering whether it is worth reserving that room for them every sunday night"

Declan, there is nothing wrong with singing Athen Ry if you are there to entertain and the 'public' askes for it.

What is this current snobbery and disdain about doing songs that are emotional, heart-felt and raise the hairs at the back of the neck of Mr Joe Public when they are sung. They love them - what's wrong with that?
They will last much longer and still be in demand long after the obscura that many people feel inclined to sing today.
You might think that such songs are sung too often and are over done but how else do songs survive from one generation to another and keep the tradition going?
What can be wrong with "crowd pleaser" songs - we are all in the entertainment industry in some shape or form - aren't we?

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 10:55 PM

Declan, I can sympathise with your point of view and know many
musicians who share it. I love good fiddle playing, for example, and
don't think a really good Irish fiddler needs any accompaniment.

There has always been snobbery among musicians (of all ilks)--they
have the artistic temperament after all, and the same could be said of any branch of the arts.
Very often it's just tuppence
ha'penny looking down at tuppence, or cronyism. Part of human
nature, really, and will always be around.

But music IS entertainment, and the older I get the more I tend to
sympathise with those who want to participate (listening, playing or singing),
and so what if it means playing the Kesh for the umpteenth time,
or a few songs get sung--it's not going to signal the end of traditional music, is it?

I find it sad when enthusiastic non-musicians come to a session
(usually tunes-only), looking for some entertainment, and are bored
silly after half an hour and leave never to return, because the musicians
are wrapped up in their own tunes or banter and take no notice whatsover of their audience.
I've been asked to come to join in some of these, but only if I take my mandolin and leave the guitar at home
(a guitar means--shock, horror!--that someone might sing a song!). So I don't go.

Last year I sang a song (in Irish) in the Cobblestone and was almost
lynched by the musicians present. The punters loved it and wanted more,
but the scathing looks from the musicians prevented it.
I never went back to that particular session. Silly, isn't it?

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 11:36 PM

" ... one or even two free drinks from the bar and maybe some free sandwiches or even hot pork pies and mushy peas (in Yorkshire.)"

Umm ... how be if I take the drinks and give you my mushy peas?


As for the other stuff - you guys are talking apples and oranges, and trying to say that because you prefer one, it is innately superior. There is no need to come to a resolution - some people want to sing the well-known songs and have the whole house join in. Others don't give a damn about the so-called punters; they want to concentrate completely on their instrumental music, and they don't want to be interrupted by songs, particularly those well-known songs that they find annoying. They aren't concerned about entertainment, and they don't want their session to turn into a sing-song, which is usually a possibility, if they aren't careful. You songsters are not going to convince the instrumentalists that they should be more open to your songs, and the instrumentalists are not going to convince you that your songs should not be sung. So, just accept it; live and let live. If you fit in with the session, join; if you don't, find another one where you do fit in. Don't bother trying to change anyone's mind about this; it ain't gonna happen ...

As a singer and instrumentalist myself, I've been on both sides of this impasse, and have been insulted from both sides at one time or another, so I understand the feelings of those on either side.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 02:41 AM

200