BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:17 PM

All this hate and derision because dianavan asked a simple question "Who told you that?"

I still think the rant post was a fake.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:21 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:25 PM

sorry.

Free elections are a good idea. But there needs to be some basic framework- do we want simple majority rule- 50.1 % get to murder the other 49.9%? IMO, the Iraqis should have whatever government they want- BUT The Kurds should have a chance at an independent state, regardless of Turkey's view on the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:49 PM

Metchosin,

I have just reviewed the "Required Reading List" for the U.S Naval Academy and West Point Military Academy. Neither have "The Arab Mind" listed. I was unable to find the list for the Air Force Academy but the library only lists two copies of the book at different locations. Where are you getting your information?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 May 04 - 02:02 PM

Who told you this? (dianavan)

I asked a simple question (dianavan)
(it) was a valid question (Ebbie)
dianavan asked a simple question (McGrath)

No, she didn't. She asked a presuppositional question which starts with an implicit assumption but asks for something else. Asking a presuppositional question is a fine instrument to derail a political (or other) discussion and shows that the person asked isn't taken serious. That was the start and even singing 'simple question' in chorus doesn't make it a simple question.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 04:39 PM

I think "Who told you this?" and "Where are you getting your information? are essentially interchangeable questions. "Give me some reason why I should believe what you have just said.

When a new acquaintance tells us something which is inconsistent with what we have previously believed to be the truth, I think that it is the right response to ask for some kind of evidence. Or should be believe anything and everything we are told without question?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Buddhist helpline
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:24 PM

What anyone says about this..none of what has happened, which causes hurt or anguish to anyone else is necessary. No Country's residents can be forgiven for doing any of the things mentioned. No politician can be praised for condoning such atrocities.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:05 PM

Wolfgang - I'm not sophisticated enough to ask a presuppositional question. I was dismayed by what he thought was truth and was curious to know where he/she got that information. Given the kid just returned from a hellish war, I didn't want to tell him/her that his/her facts were misguided or wrong. I just wanted to know the source. It was a simple question that could be asked in many different ways - depends on the intonation. Since you can't hear the tone of my voice, I think you are jumping to conclusions about my intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:40 PM

Chief Chaos, the information came from here and apparently Hersh mentioned it in his New Yorker magazine article.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:22 PM

also Chief Chaos, the article refers to The John F Kennedy Special Warfare Center at Fort Bragg. Army, is it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 May 04 - 02:37 PM

"What's your evidence" or "where from did you get this information" are completely different questions from "Who told you this".

The target question did presuppose that the poster did not come to the opinion by studying different sources, by comparing different accounts, or perhaps even by personal experience, however questionable personal experience might be. It implied that the poster came to this opinion simply by being told. The poster is seen in this formulation as a passive recipient of information unable to think critically.

I grant, dianavan, that the question may have been formulated without these implications in mind, but when SJ called it a low shot it might have been an indication that the question can be read differently from how it was intended.

My only intention in my post was to point out that calling this question 'simple' was wrong.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 26 May 04 - 03:31 PM

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, Wolfgang.

'Who told you this', on the other hand, are just four words with a question mark after it.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 26 May 04 - 03:58 PM

Now you all are splitting hairs.

Yes, there are stupid books out there, and people actually read them. It could possibly be that the book is required reading to show the WRONG way of thinking. A contrary book, if you will.

Just an idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 04 - 04:09 PM

Still seems pretty simple to me - "I don't believe you are right. So convince me" A very reasonable attitude to have when someone tells you something that seems unlikely to be true.

It can be dangerous to fill in the gaps in what someone says with what we think they might be saying.

There's a story of two kings. One sent a letter to the other - but in the course of the journey the letter got damaged, so it read "Send me a team of your finest white horses - or else..."

The second king was a bit surprised at this. "That sounds like a threat to me" and he sent a letter back.

And the post got damaged this time as well, and when it rreached the first king it said "I have not got any white horses - if I did have any..." And the king got angry. "I sent him a polite request, and I get back this letter saying he wouldn't give me any horses even if he had them."

And the upshot was a terrible war. And eventually they fought each other to a standstill, and they had a peace negotiation.

"Why did you send that threatening letter?" said the first king - "Send me a team of your finest white horses - or else..."

The second king looked amazed. "I didn't send you a threatening letter. What I wrote was 'Please could you send me a team of your white horses - or else any other colour would do, if you can spare them'. And then I got your angry letter 'I have not got any white horses - if I did have any..."

And the second king looked embarrassed "But it wasn't a angry letter. What I wrote was "I have not got any white horses - if I did have any of course I would be happy to send you as many as you want."

And they both looked embarrassed.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 26 May 04 - 04:13 PM

I think in Missouri, they just say Show Me.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 May 04 - 05:46 PM

Jack the Sailor

It is Arab Moslem fanatacs because that is what it is, jerko. It's not any other kind of fanatic or as you say just plain old fanatics.

As far as being a bigot you are such an idiot. You can't live in a big melting pot like Chicago and be a bigot. I work with and have neighbors of all creeds and nationalities. I have no problem with them.

I do have problems with dorkface anti-American puke faces like you who seem to blame Jews for much of their own problems and inadequecies in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 04 - 06:02 PM

Martin Gibson, your flailing is pathetic.

I don't think I'm anti-Semitic, incidentally- until I was 9 or so, I thought I and my family were Jews. My mother said, in astonishment, Whatever gave you that idea??

Near tears I stammered, I thought we were God's Chosen People. We wouldn't wear clothes like this if we weren't, would we?

I was Amish.

Back to your reasoning: If I were newly hatched, knowing nothing about conflicts, I would be not only taken aback by your bitter vehemence and the hatred you spew but I would certainly not be drawn to the cause you espouse. You, friend, are a one-trick pony. Honor your people, yes; work against anyone else ever considering implementing such an obscene plan, yes; (We are on your side, dammit) but someone gave you a bum steer when they told you this is the way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 May 04 - 06:20 PM

I always found that the most inadequate people resorted to name calling!!! Usually as they cannot handle the pressures of good communication. Getting ones point across is a good exercise but lowering oneself to name calling.....sad.
Be Blessed all.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 04 - 06:44 PM

Coming out in a purple-faced rage spitting out insults isn't always the best way to deal with a situation where other people may disagree with us on some point.

If someone accuses me of being a bigot that indicates that they don't like bigots. If I am not bigot, that means that we are essentially in agreement some very important things, but that there has been a misunderstanding that needs to be cleared up. "Dorkface anti-American puke faces" isn't, I suggest, entirely the most effective way of clearing up such a misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:41 AM

There's that "AA" word again ---- Anti-American

McCarthy come back ..... we need your clarification on a few things.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:16 PM

No excuse for that

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:41 AM

Martin Gibson, the fact you live in a mixed community does not make you immune to bigotry. Cities around the globe have been the sites of racial discord time and time again. Didn't Hitler start his career of agitation in a nice big city, and we all know how he ended up.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:01 PM

Guest, I don't need to justify anything to you. You don't know me and obviously know one here knows you. You know so much about Hitler, maybe you are related to him. Wouldn't doubt it. Most people who quote Hitler to Jews are indeed Jew haters themselves.

McGrath, i don't have any misunderstanding with Jack the Sailor. I understand all to well that he is a dorface anti-American puke face. It's very obvious to me. No misunderstanding on my part. And
As for getting my point across, you all read my posts so I guess that I am doing just fine in that department. Keep reading Ebbie. Sorry you were so disappointed in finding out the truth. Must have been hard to take as you are probably one of the only Amish currently using a computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:37 PM

you all read my posts so I guess that I am doing just fine in that department

If we had a filtering system which would filter out posts credited to individual members, I am afraid that a lot of people would probably use it to filter out Martin Gibson's posts.

Of course that could be true of a great numnber of members, including me, and on the whole I'm glad the facility isn't available. Better to do the filtering ourselves as we go through the threads.

Here's a quote from a post made by a new member, Rabbi-Sol:

The wonderful thing about this forum is that we can discuss the issues as rational human beings, with mutual respect, even though many of us are on opposite sides of the issue. It is a lot better than shooting bullets and grenades at each other.

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:52 PM

Well, McGrath, we can all agree on some things....


"Of course that could be true of a great numnber of members, including me, and on the whole I'm glad the facility isn't available. Better to do the filtering ourselves as we go through the threads.

Here's a quote from a post made by a new member, Rabbi-Sol:

The wonderful thing about this forum is that we can discuss the issues as rational human beings, with mutual respect, even though many of us are on opposite sides of the issue. It is a lot better than shooting bullets and grenades at each other.

Amen. "

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:01 PM

To disagree with words of personal attack are unnecessary and imflammatory and can be damaging to the "victim". Why be nasty...prove your point!!! don't belittle your opponent or challenger. I believe that our nastiness reveals more about us as individuals than about the people we attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:48 PM

...just four words with a question mark after it (Jim)

Jim, are you stupid?
(just four words with a question mark after it)

Wolfgang (not meaning the nasty implication, just asking for the sake of the argument)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:51 PM

Georgiansilver are you a preacher or a dope?

I hope you are not "damaged."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:52 PM

Good Grief, Charlie Brown! Martin Gibson, I'm 68 years old. I left the Amish church at 17. Have you thought lately about putting your brain cells in gear so you can think??

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:06 PM

Do you walk to school or carry your lunch?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:08 PM

well, ebbie, I am thinking very clearly. Obviously you are not because how would I know when you threw in the amish towel.

The sex was bad, wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:39 PM

"Jim are you stupid?" actually implies that the questioner does not think Jim is stupid, but stubbornly refusing to accept his own logic. I suppose that means that it is not "a simple question". However anyone who got upset about a question like that would, I suggest, be acting a bit stupid.

I've got my personal filter on now. And I am sure I am not the only one.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:38 PM

Martin Gibson....I have read many of your replies to threads of all types and have come across nothing of any intellectual value for any of us from you. All you continue to do is slag people off for their views. Are you incapable of making serious comments in answer to other serious statements or is this just your bag. If you wish to join mature conversation then grow with it not against it. Learn something!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:02 PM

This thread has lost its flavour. For the last 10+ posts it is all to do with people slagging off Martin G, while he in turn concentrates on ascribing expressions to people who haven't in fact used them ("quoting Hitler" indeed) or slagging people in turn ("are you a preacher or a dope?" , "dork-faced puke faces" etc).

Sheesh!

Serious discussion has gone out of the window. Good night all!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:26 PM

"Jim, are you stupid?"
Wolfgang: 28 May 04 - 04:48 PM

No, just a darn sight more fluent in the English Language than you are. (16 words, with no question mark at the end)

Not meaning any 'nasty implication' here, neither.
Just stating fact.

Your point?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:30 PM

Getting back to the beheading business, I may be wrong, but I think that the young Burg fellow, missed a flight home because he was detained.
I also wonder what part Iraqi refugees play in this debate about freeing Iraq from a dictatorship. It would stand to reason that if free countries have to accept refugees then there should be some scrutiny (other than their word about persecution) about the country of origin. And would this imply an obligation to try to rectify the situation.
If refugees want to live in a democracy then perhaps they need to put their hand up and enter into this debate.
I know I will be branded racist for even questioning any rights or obligations refugees may or may not have.
LS

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 May 04 - 12:25 PM

My point, Jim? That sometimes a simple question isn't a simple question.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 May 04 - 12:44 PM

Serious discussion, yeah right.

Georgiansilver, some views, to use an old cliche, people are entitled to. You are right to a degree, I don't take a lot of what goes on here seriously, just a lot of egos who have very little impact on anything that are way too busy being serious about subjects that they pretend to have all the answers for. You included. I hang out down here below the line when the music topics get to slow or are way too top heavy with or about navel gazing/picking singer songwriters insread of areas of folk music that I am interested in.

I don't know about you, but I'm having fun.

I in turn, reserve the right to my view, that those views border on extreme bullshit.

Guest, guest, it's Berg, not Burg. How typical.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Jim McCallan
Date: 30 May 04 - 02:22 PM

"That sometimes a simple question isn't a simple question"

Four words with a question mark after them is a 'simple question', Wolfgang.
With no inflection (as with the human voice, for instance), and when printed with no other contextual qualifier, what great leap of inference needs to be taken for it to become a presuppositional one?

The attitude of the beholder, I would suggest.

"Are you stupid?' is a simple question.
"No" is the simple answer

One can read between the lines too much, you know.
But when it is only one line that is written, one does a disservice to oneself if one doesn't take it at face value. At least initially.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 30 May 04 - 04:58 PM

Berg, Berg, Berg---Sorry, Sorry, Sorry.
May he rest in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 May 04 - 06:46 PM

i have added an article as a separate thread -

Who Killed Nick Berg?


it does raises questions, analyses the tape in detail. it was published in anAustralian paper on the weekend. article can also be found at -

http://smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/28/1085641717320.html
................................

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Amy
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 01:59 PM

Looks like it has happened again.

Subject: This just in: Iraqis NOT beheading anyone!
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 02:11 AM

Yes, to belabor a point: once again people who were NOT IRAQI have beheaded an American. This time it did not even happen in Iraq! Wouldn't a new thread have been better than reviving this misleadingly named one?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DougR
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 07:39 PM

You folks STILL think the terrorists beheading folks in Iraq are NOT sub-human? Hmmm?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 09:45 PM

Sadly, yes, DougR. As I said many posts above, it is arguably uniquely human. What other animal not only kills but tortures its own species? Humans, as far as we can tell, have always done so. It's nice to think Humans don't do these things but we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DougR
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 01:58 PM

Nerd: then I assume you would feel perfectly at ease sitting down at table and taking tea with the murderers since they are so "Human." Perhaps if you, Greg F., Sue B. and a few others would do that, you could listen to what is troubling them, do everything you can do to placate them, and they will leave us alone!

However should you decide to schedule your little tea party, you might want to request them to check their swords at the door. After all, they might not be as humane and forgiving as you and your other tea partners appear to be.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 02:51 PM

I don't know what the hell you're talking about, DougR. As always, you don't read my posts and then criticize me for them. Where did I say I wanted to have tea with anyone? I said that this particular kind of bad behavior is human. Probably no other animal does it. You are using "human" as a value judgement, a synonym for "well-behaved." I am using it in a descriptive sense, to mean "actions that characterize the human race."

I will quote from my above post:

DougR, I can't agree that this was "subhuman" or even as someone else said "medieval." Not because I have a higher opinion than you of the actions, but because I prefer to be honest about human behavior. In ancient times, the Romans crucified thousands. In medieval times, the inquisition committed horrible acts of execution on essentially innocent people, and so did practically every secular authority. In eighteenth century France, supposedly the height of culture of civilization, beheading was a common form of execution, and many of the victims had committed no crimes. In nineteenth century England, being "pressed into service" (ie kidnapped) meant that you had gone from life in a parliamentary monarchy to an absolute autocracy, where your human rights could be taken away on a whim. If you rebelled, you could be "flogged round the fleet," beaten to death with a cat-o-nine-tails while seized to the gratings of a succession of different vessels (similar to what the Romans did to Jesus). Black men have been lynched by southern whites within living memory. Don't forget slavery, the holocaust, "ethnic cleansing."

Human life, in most places and most times, has been violent. Our thin veneer of a hundred years or so of politeness in Western Europe and America falls away pretty quickly in wartime; witness the atrocities admitted by American soldiers in Viet Nam, and the atrocities carried out by the VC as well.

This beheading was pretty violent, no question. It was immoral, profane, disgusting.

Unfortunately, it was also a hundred percent human.

Now. Is there something there you don't understand?

Something that suggests a tea party?

Jeez, you can be frustrating sometimes!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 08:14 PM

the interesting point on the beheadings - is that the terrorist group
behind them have correctly surmised that to the Western mind the act of beheading is inherently revolting, its somehow not right to separate the head from the body after death, and thus carries more shock and propaganda value, (although why should it be any worse than getting shot)
They are experts at using the internet and the media at getting world attention focussed on them. It gets noticed a lot more than just shooting someone.

Of course someone like Saddam would have found out which prisoners
they want released from Abu Graib in exchange and send their heads over.
In the early 80s when there was spate of kidnappings in lebanon
a couple of russian diplomats were kidnapped. One was killed during the kidnapping. The spetznaz (russian special service) guys found out which gang was responsible and sent a courier with one of their heads over. The diplomat was released and afterwards they steered clear of the Russians.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 12:09 PM

Gee Nerd, I'm sorry. I certainly don't want anyone to become frustrated because I wrote something I believe and it happens not to coincide with what others believe.

I used the tea party analogy because it appears to me that you, and others, are entirely too "understanding" of the terrorists that commit such terrible acts. In other words, your posts on this subject appear to me as being entirely too tolerant of the terrorists behaviour. You say you do not approve of their behaviour, but believe that it is human behaviour to chop off somebody's head.

That kind of frustrates me too!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 12:35 PM

Once again, DougR, you're not reading what I'm writing. I understand your position. You would like Humans to be perfect moral beings, and that's a noble aspiration.

We are not.

We do horrible, horrible things. Until recent historical times, it was the norm. Now, thank God, it is the exception in many places in the world. But, speaking empirically rather than morally, it is human. Humans have perpetuated crimes as serious as the Rwandan genocide and as trivial as Nigerian email scams. I disapprove of all of them. But to define behavior you particularly don't like as "inhuman" will do nothing to address the causes and effects of such behavior.

In fact, it is very obvious to anyone with any sense of history that a propensity for brutal violence is part of human nature, and that being a citizen of polite society is always a struggle against these violent impulses.

Again, this has nothing to do with "being easy on anyone." It's just empirically false and historically ridiculous to say such behavior is not human.

Or to put it another way, name a species of which members semi-regularly decapitate other members.

I think you'll get only one answer.