BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 09:35 AM

"Cuts too close to home, does it Carroll?"
Might do if you actually had something to say Troll (or should I say Brucie?) - your literary flair is somewhat distinctive.
Still happy to hear what you have to say - go on - force yourself - no? - didn't think so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 09:57 AM

Jim,
Keith's already tried rewriting what I actually said and failed miserably

No. I quoted you verbatim.
You did suggest, as Ake also mentioned, that this was a conspiracy by a racist government to persecute migrants, and Steve likewise.

In fact it was a short lived story that was of no import and soon dealt with.
The Chicken Littles both wildly over-reacted and the sky is still in place.

Here are the quotes again,

"There may be to this than meets the eye - the Government has been aware of this for four years."

"explaining away the attacks by putting them down to Government policy - Britain has a shameful record of racism - Moseley, N.F., BNP, and now Ukip - all major players in British politics
Now they are targeting asylum seekers and you are supporting them."

"It is extreme paranoia to imagine a government conspiracy in any of this."
Yeah - sure it is - we have imagined that Cameron has just described alylum seekers as a "swarm" (insects, maybe)
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that these have been pilot schemes for future identification of all asylum seekers, and, if them, why not all immigrants?

(Steve)
"I think we are being softened up to hate immigrants by a nasty, racist Tory government..... The fact that we can even be having a discussion about marking out asylum seekers as separate by painting their doors a certain colour or making them wear wristbands is testament to the fact that the cynical softening up is working on the more bigoted and feeble-minded among us. These things are not debatable in my opinion. "

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 10:18 AM

"No. I quoted you verbatim."
You did not Keith - this was your claim
"There is certainly nothing to judtify Jim's claim that this local arrangement represents a government policy to persecute asylum seekers!
- where have I ever suggested that it was Government policy to PERSECUTE ASYLUM SEEKERS
I neither said that, notr do I believe it, as my reply pointed out.
I believe that it was "possibly" a trying out of tagging asylum seekers with a possible view to expanding it to all immigrants, or at least those who have arrived recently.
If you can find one hint of persecution - put it up - don't expect for a minute you are prepared to withdraw it.
You and Ake have made a fine art of rewriting what people say to suit yourselves.
"There may be to this than meets the eye - the Government has been aware of this for four years."
As I said before - not a word of "persecution"
Cameron did describe them as a swarm - are you suggesting he did not?
Again - not a word of "persecution" - you appear to be linking Cameron's words with persecution - not me.
What the **** are you putting something written by Steve up for - I didn't say it - you've already been told about this.
Wriggling - malicious or just plain stupid - or what?
I certainly believe the Government are prepared to use immigrants to will elections - so are many other politicians - that is cynicism, not racism, in my opinion.
Now put up or shut up Keith and stop exposing yourself to more ridicule
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 10:41 AM

Yes, yes, Carroll you are morally superior to Keith et al and you have, once again saved the persecuted from the scourge of government racism. You are a true hero and your name, like that of Don Quixote, will be legend.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 10:43 AM

Another aspect of this squalid affair; from yesterday's Times
Jim Carroll

Asylum Wristband Row Company Pays Chief £1m
Dominic Kennedy

A company that forced asylum seekers to wear red wristbands is to be summoned before parliament after it was disclosed that one of its directors is being paid nearly £1 million.
Clearsprings, which is contracted by the Home Office to look after immigrants, was criticised for requiring the bands to be worn in exchange for meals.
Company records show that its highest paid director is receiving £960,000 a year. Clearsprings is owned by the brothers Graham and Jeff King, of south Essex. Several years ago it was at the centre of complaints over its plans to set up bail hostels.
The company dropped a policy of forcing asylum seekers in Cardiff to wear the wristbands. Now MPs are furious that the company is making big profits and paying fat-cat boardroom salaries.
Clearsprings Ready Homes made £3million on a turnover of £29million, according to company filings.
Its parent company Clearsprings (Management) nearly trebled pay for its three-man board from £494, 000 to £1. 3 million. The company also disclosed that HMRC was conducting an
inquiry into its tax affairs.
The Mail on Sunday reported that Clearsprings was housing asylum seekers at a hotel near Gatwick where they had to eat away from other guests.
Keith Vaz, chairman of the home affairs committee, said of the company:
"We will be calling them in." MPs had warned the home secretary, Theresa May, about the agreements, he said.
"The situation regarding Clearsprings is most concerning. There have been numerous complaints which ought to have alerted the Home Office.
The taxpayer needs value for money, not to be ripped off by providers providing an inadequate service, " he added He said the committee would question James Brokenshire, the immigration minister, when he appears before MPs tomorrow. Stephen Doughty, the
Labour MP, has secured a debate on asylum contracts this week.
Clearsprings did not respond.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:05 AM

- where have I ever suggested that it was Government policy to PERSECUTE ASYLUM SEEKERS


In all these quotes Jim,

"These doors were equivalent to hanging signs up and saying "To any right wing thus who happens to be in the vicinity - I am an asylum seeker - please feel free to vandalise my home". "

"the continuing singling out of asylum seekers for racist persecution and attacks."

"Personally, I believe that the red front doors are not unconnected to the now abandoned 'yellow-star type' armbands and goes higher up than landlord's policy, but that's me."

"The armbands have nothing to do with benefits - they are to identify the wearers as asylum seekers whenever they appear in public"

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:13 AM

So where is a reference to government policy?

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:29 AM

Rag, he says he believes that the policy comes from "higher up" than the agents who paint the doors and provide the bands for welfare.

He refers to "government policy."

He says, "these have been pilot schemes for future identification of all asylum seekers, "
Local agents would hardly be piloting such a scheme for all asylum seekers in the country. Who would order such a scheme but government?

He says, "The armbands have nothing to do with benefits - they are to identify the wearers as asylum seekers whenever they appear in public"
which would have to be a national policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:41 AM

Again, where has Jim used the term, government policy. As far as I can make out he hasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:45 AM

It is encouraging that Jim now does not accuse the government of deliberately persecuting, or encouraging the persecution, of migrants, distancing himself from Steve who has let stand his view that "we are being softened up to hate immigrants by a nasty, racist Tory government."

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:46 AM

"In all these quotes Jim,"
Now you are a stupidly lying unless you believe that being tagged is persecution - in which case both the government and the firm are guilty of persecution - is that what you are saying?
You have defended the use of armbands and the plaques - in which case, you are defending persecution - is that what you are saying?
The Government has actually forced the removal of the tags and the plaques.
If either is the case - you are supporting persecution - plain and simple
You are deliberately twisting my words to make them something I have never suggested and do not believe - the stupid this is you are doing so obviously.
Leave it Keith - this is just another of your justifications for your dishonesty
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:48 AM

Rag, he did use the term in one of the quotes, and he clearly refers to it as government policy in the others without needing to use the phrase.
His meaning is quite clear however much you pretend that you can not see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 12:19 PM

"and he clearly refers to it as government policy in the others without needing to use the phrase.
Where have I ever accused the Government of persecution - on the contrary
07 Feb 16 - 08:00 PM
"Governments who describe themselves as 'democratic' don't 'persecute' - they don't have to - they have the power of the State to keep them warm."
"I suggested that these "unrelated" incidents - armbands, plaques on walls, red doors, may have been a pilot scheme to identify asylum seekers and where they were living - no more than that.
Immigration, particularly the numbers of asylum seekers in need of assistance, has become a political issue, and the latter have become perfect election fodder.
Come a dodgy by-election, or another crisis brought on by bankers giving themselves over-generous bonuses, or more MPs claiming expenses for yet more duck-palaces.... what better than our Tess May standing up and saying - "we're going to do something about all those cadgers-cum-security-threats"?"
You and your friend have been caught lying - lay down - you're dead
Now will you piss off

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 12:22 PM

Repeat
""I suggested that these "unrelated" incidents - armbands, plaques on walls, red doors, may have been a pilot scheme to identify asylum seekers and where they were living - no more than that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 12:22 PM

In the quotes you highlighted Jim made no mention of government policy can I presume we can now add clairvoyance to your list of talents.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 12:34 PM

"can I presume we can now add clairvoyance to your list of talents."
Nope - just a confirmation of dishonesty - this bit compounds the dishonesty
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 12:56 PM

Have you noticed that Guesticle's new policy is to call people he falls out with by their surname only. Let's hope he doesn't fall out with Keith, who will become A. Michael will become Lion, Greg would be F, pete would be Link and we'd have a woodsman and a tash. Any more offers for this joker?

"Thought I'd heard it all from Carroll, Shaw, Gnomo and F, but now even Lion and A, who you'd have thought would be on my side, are having a go. And bugger me sideways with a bent banana if woodsman and tash aren't stalking me as well. If he'll talk to me again, think I'll head off for a prayer meeting with Link..."

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 01:02 PM

Jim, you claimed that the government was deliberately identifying migrants to those who would harm them, as the yellow stars once identified Jews.
That is persecution Jim.

The post you just quoted has this,
"what better than our Tess May standing up and saying - "we're going to do something about all those cadgers-cum-security-threats"?"

May is Home Secretary!

Never mind.
You say you no longer believe that the government is doing this to persecute the migrants.
I think that you are right about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 01:03 PM

Just looking in the "Mother" thread he could double some up to get either Hawk-Chimp or Chimp-Hawk and River with Banks

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 02:47 PM

"Jim, you claimed that the government was deliberately identifying migrants to those who would harm them,"
Where?
The only time of have accused anybody of deliberation is in claiming you aqre deliberately lying - which you now are.
I said that attacks on asylum seekers were the consequence of their policies - at no time have I ever said (or believed) that the Government set out to persecute anybody - in fact I said the opposite
"Governments who describe themselves as 'democratic' don't 'persecute' - they don't have to - they have the power of the State to keep them warm."
"what better than our Tess May standing up and saying - "we're going to do something about all those cadgers-cum-security-threats"?"
Up to your old - 'out of context'stunts;
In context
""I suggested that these "unrelated" incidents - armbands, plaques on walls, red doors, may have been a pilot scheme to identify asylum seekers and where they were living - no more than that.
Immigration, particularly the numbers of asylum seekers in need of assistance, has become a political issue, and the latter have become perfect election fodder.
Come a dodgy by-election, or another crisis brought on by bankers giving themselves over-generous bonuses, or more MPs claiming expenses for yet more duck-palaces.... what better than our Tess May standing up and saying - "we're going to do something about all those cadgers-cum-security-threats"?"
If you are going to do this, please make an effort - this is ****** ludicrous.
"You say you no longer believe that the government is doing this to persecute the migrants."
Piss off Keith - I said no such thing - I have never claimed the Government disd anything other than to clear the ground for some sort of identification
You really are a pathetic little man
Mor from what I* have said - and what I believe.
27 Jan 16 - 11:19 AM
But surely the reason why it was done is beside the point - the practice has led to vandalising attacks on the property and it is putting the safety and possibly the lives of tenants at risk (only takes a braindead, a can of petrol and a match and whoosh- there you go)

29 Jan 16 - 07:23 AM
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that these have been pilot schemes for future identification of all asylum seekers, and, if them, why not all immigrants?

30 Jan 16 - 05:45 AM
It is a way of tagging people and it has been proven to have put people at risk yet our star super-rights continue to defend the use of compulsory markers to identify foreigners
IT WAS COMPULSORY TO WEAR THEM AT ALL TIMES, INSIDE AND OUT - IT WAS A FORM OF TAGGING - NOTHING MORE

07 Feb 16 - 11:56 AM
This is an exercise in tagging asylum seekers - the way it was done was found to be degrading and dangerous so it was abandoned (after nationwide protests).

You really should not be allowed to post until you clean up your act
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 03:12 PM

Jim, the title of the thread and your early posts are about government being behind this local arrangement, for the purpose of persecuting migrants just as Jews were persecuted by the yellow stars.

Clearly you no longer believe that and distance yourself from Steve who has not changed his position.

That is good.
We no longer disagree.

Denying your original position now just makes you look silly, but at least we now agree that this is not really an issue at all, and not worthy of all the hype and hyssteria here and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 03:13 PM

hysteria

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 04:56 PM

Please God, make this madness stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 05:55 PM

I agree BWM, it's getting extremely boring, but these crazy ideas need to be opposed, or they become the norm. Soon we will be unable to speak or think for ourselves the madia will control every waking moment.

Keith is correct to point out the fallacies in their views, the "plaques" are a typical example ....house numbers, what colour should they be? Rainbow colours to baffle the racist thugs?

It is absolutely laughable. Wristbands, if you are allowed to remove them, I suppose you could lend them or rent them to people who don't qualify for the benefits?    Door colour is beyond discussion, why on earth would any letting company deliberately encourage thugs to attack their property?

I repeat, these people are here because we allow them to be here, every taxpayer provides the benefits that our own young jobless or low paid people do not qualify for.....our own sons and daughters.
The asylum seekers should be a little more grateful for the kindness of the UK population in providing such a standard of living for nothing.

Jim the RSPCA remark is unlike you, but I don't think you are a bad person, I made the comment "daft" after considerable thought, it was meant more as "comically confused" than "mentally ill".

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 06:04 PM

"I repeat, these people are here because we allow them to be here, every taxpayer provides the benefits that our own young jobless or low paid people do not qualify for.....our own sons and daughters.
The asylum seekers should be a little more grateful for the kindness of the UK population in providing such a standard of living for nothing."

Disgusting. Inhuman, racist, xenophobic and Incredibly Ill-informed. Actually, I think I'm being kind to you. One of the most hateful posts I've ever read here. Your presence shames this place.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, Jim, the tit suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 07:04 PM

"

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 07:34 PM

"Jim, the title of the thread and your early posts are about government being behind this local arrangement"
Nothing about Government persecuting anybody yet - ah well!!
The title of the thread was based on newspaper comparisons of the identification bands - maybe they suspected Government persecution - nuffin' to do with me.
"Clearly you no longer believe that and distance yourself from Steve "
No I don't - I think he is oversimplifying things, I have no idea whether he believes in a government plot to persecute asylum seekers - if he does - disagree with him - as I have made quite clear - you have yet to come up with one single thing I have said at any time which contradicts this - just the opposite - though I have no doubt you have fine-combed everything - you are now lying desperately and, as I have said many times before - you have not a shred of self-respect in your desperation to prove something I have neither said, nor do I believe.
"We no longer disagree."
Are you really that short of friends? Utterly pathetic.
Ake - you started this with your lying - have you any evidence of what Keith is claiming - c'mon - he's blowing for tugs here - help him out
You refuse to respond to the damage that these bands and the front doors have caused, even though you have been shown the evidence over and over again - that is beneath contempt.
"Jim the RSPCA remark is unlike you, "
Your lying, your support for a practice that has been discredited, your contemptuous regard for the well-being and safety of men women and children who have been driven out of their homes and countries by genocidal war and persecution is, unfortunately, very much like you.
I notice you are totally avoiding all this - which means, having started all this, you are now leaving your friend to wallow in your shit-storm - very noble of you.
So - wadd've we got?
A Islamophobic racist Antisemite who claims to be a Christian - an Islamophobic, Antisemite Troll who is to ashamed to admit to the identity he once posted under and only peeps from under his bridge occasionally to throw a few stones, and a homophobic, right wing extremist who thinks he is a socialist - such opposition - won't sleep a wink tonight worrying about it - shesh - what a gang of tossers!
"Please God, make this madness stop."
Then how about helping to put a stop to it Woodie - can you show anything to back up Keith's claims, or would you rather keep your distance too?
Were's me 'orlicks
Night all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 07:52 PM

Which bloody Steve are we talking about here? Can we clear this up, please? I don't feel that I'm distanced from anyone I wasn't distanced from before, and, if I over-simplify things, I should like to told how.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 08:36 PM

Keith is trying to break off our engagement Steve - take no notice; we're still buddies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 08:55 PM

Sorry Steve (Shaw)- should elucidate.
It's an old trick of Keith's that, when he finds himself really in the klarts (as now) - first he lumps those opposing him as "you lot" and tries to attribute what one of us has said to the other(s) - hence his lumping yours and my statements together - then he he tries to split "us lot" up, by claiming one or other of us is now agreeing with him, as he has with me "We no longer disagree.".
We've never met (I don't think), but basically, you and I seem to be coming from the same direction, while we may not entirely agree on the detail - Keith his using his worn-out tactic of "divide and rule".
He has two idiot friends here, neither of which have balls or staying power and leave him to take the flack, sniping from the sidelines occasionally when he really starts to gibber.
None of them are the brightest starfishes in the sandbucket - they toss a coin to decide whose turn it is to use the single brain at the beginning of each session (sort of, like the 3 Cyclops with one eye between them.
As far as I'm concerned, the engagement's still on - see you at the church!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 09:22 PM

Pick me up on detail any time, Jim. My brain can be slow at times!

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 10:13 PM

Jim,
Nothing about Government persecuting anybody yet

Me,
"It is extreme paranoia to imagine a government conspiracy in any of this."
You,
"Yeah - sure it is."

That is you disagreeing that it is extreme paranoia to imagine a government conspiracy in any of this, and so do all your other quotes.

I acknowledge and accept that you have now changed your mind.
Your embarrassment over your previous position does you credit.
We are now in agreement.
I think that a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 10:17 PM

Steve,
"I'll tell you what I think. I think we are being softened up to hate immigrants by a nasty, racist Tory government which never criticises Israeli atrocities, which cosies up to the despicable Saudi regime and which allows fat cats to get away without paying tax. We are told that there are bunches of migrants threatening to swarm into the country. The fact that we can even be having a discussion about marking out asylum seekers as separate by painting their doors a certain colour or making them wear wristbands is testament to the fact that the cynical softening up is working on the more bigoted and feeble-minded among us. These things are not debatable in my opinion."

Is that still your view Steve?
Do you agree with it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 10:38 PM

which never criticises Israeli atrocities

Because Israel does not commit atrocities, unless you are implying that defending your country from attack is an atrocity.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:06 PM

Because Israel does not commit atrocities

Plenty of Israelis think otherwise, Bearded Fred.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!
From: GUEST,Tin Eye
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:58 PM

Raggytash, aren't Telescreens required in the UK? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 02:57 AM

"Then how about helping to put a stop to it Woodie - can you show anything to back up Keith's claims, or would you rather keep your distance too?"

I left school and started work in 1963. Unlike The Usual Suspects on this forum, I left childishness and bike-shed behaviour behind at that point. Stupid, childish, "Yah-Boo you" bickering may give you lot a huge boner, but it does nothing for me. I tried, earlier, to inject some sense and realism, and hopefully bring the squabbling to a close, but to no avail. I know better than to try to breathe life into a dead horse.

I've got a lovely wife, a nice house, two nice cars, a grand little dog, a good pension, half-a-dozen guitars and a mandolin most players would sell their first-born in order to own, two nice holidays a year, and decent health. I'm having a good life. Why in the name of God would I want to waste it pointlessly arguing with two factions of OCD idiots whose aim isn't to reach consensus, but simply to "win", and who are prepared to lie, distort and misinterpret in their vain attempts to achieve their goal?

Get a life.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 04:24 AM

This finishes here as far as I'm concerned
Apart from the possibility of a Government feeling out a tagging system for Asylum Seekers the only 'conspiracy theory' I will give my support to is that Keith's campaign is aimed at deliberately closing down a thread on what has happened in Middlesborough and Cardiff.
He has not come up with one shred of backing for his claims and nobody is supporting him here - it is a one-man-band again,
Even Ake, who started this "persecution of asylum seekers" accusation, has fallen silent and has left him to stew in his own juice - like the hero we know him to be.
The point has been made over and over again of what effect this tagging and identification of asylum seekers has had on those wretched refugees - the old usual handful have rolled out to support them, the red doors and the identification bands have been abandoned for the abominably inhuman idea that they were - an experiment failed, one of the companies is being examined for possibly defrauding the taxpayer and the world has moved on.
Now, what we are left with is desperate attempt by Keith to save face - for his naff campaign to compare 4* hotels to asylum seekers seeking assistance, and more than that, to his blatant dishonesty in rewriting other people's opinions - it ain't going to happen - face well lost Keith, as deep as the Titanic in the Grand Banks.
I really have no more to say to him, and I truely hope the rest of you has taken the lesson.
"Get a life."
I'll take that as "I don't want to be involved" then Woodie - can't say I blame you - neither do I.
Happy to continue the discussion on the topic - but not with this pair of saddoes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 04:57 AM

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:23 AM

"It is extreme paranoia to imagine a government conspiracy in any of this."
Yeah - sure it is

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 05:26 AM

You clearly don't understand the point I was making, Keith. If you don't agree with it, or any of it, bring it on. It seems rather pointless to ask me if I agree with something I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 05:27 AM

Tin Eye, I don't think Televisions have been made compulsory ....yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 05:44 AM

Steve, what is to misunderstand? You stated your case very clearly.
I asked if you still think that and you do.
Fine.
I asked Jim if he agreed, but he declined to answer.
I think he would have supported you if he felt he could.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 07:03 AM

So?

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 07:19 AM

Tin Eye may have been referring to 1984. I'm a bit slow this morning after too many pancakes so I don't get the significance.

Keith, I'll give you a minute, though I don't know why I bother. When I say that these things are not debatable IN MY OPINION (nota bene), I mean that all decent people should condemn, unanimously, nem con, the painting of the doors and the enforced wearing of the wristbands. Anyone who defends these ugly practices, or says that they are trivial or that they don't matter and what's all the fuss about, is, IN MY OPINION, out of order and is very likely uninformed at best, or uncaring, or bigoted at worst. That's what I meant. As I am actually debating it, that should tell you clearly what I think of you and your allies. And, as a footnote, Jim and I are not and never have been in cahoots with each other. Your childish attempts to drive a wedge are simply laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 08:20 AM

"Pick me up on detail any time, Jim. My brain can be slow at times!"
Don't think it is really Steve – but it's a mistake we've all made to write of the present Government as simply "racist" - in my opinion, it's a bit more complicated than that.
For me, the present refugee crisis and the tags and front doors have been an eye opener.
The British political system has long abandoned any pretence of representing the people of these islands - it has become a political scrabble to hold office - a career move and a way to make sure the wealthy stay wealthy, nothing more.
Labour - Conservative and (so called) Liberal parties have become indistinguishable and interchangeable, swinging one way or the other in coalitions in order to retain power.
More and more, 'the strangers among us' have become an issue at election time, pawns used by politicians playing on a xenophobia which has been part of our lives for the length of my lifetime at least
This cynicism goes back at least as far as the mid 19th century when the British newspapers were peddling a racist image of the simian Irish, and our hotels and boarding houses were putting up signs like "No Irish – no dogs, while at the same time, our politicians and industrialists, particularly mill and mine-owners, were welcoming the starving Famine refugees with open arms as a method of driving down the wages of the indigenous working people.   
In the nineteen - thirties, we had political racism and cultural hatred in the form of the Antisemitism of Mosley, Ramsey, Arthur Wellesley the 5th Duke of Wellington, Lord Rothermere of The Daily Mail, set alongside a moral obligation of accepting refugees from Nazi Germany and an influx of impoverished workers who would work for what they could get.
In the latter half of the 20th century, we had the rabble-rousing racism of Powell's 'Rivers of Blood, against all immigrants, alongside a political acceptance that we "couldn't send them all back to where they came from, coupled with a pragmatic recognition that immigration was beneficial to the economy and the community.
Nowadays, apart from Ukip (maybe), the unlamentedly late National Front and the BNP, I don't believe genuine racism to be a passionately-felt part of British politics - not really – Ukip is an oddity in the sense that it attracts racist nutters, but this is set beside a talentless leadership of wannabe-parliamentarians who are happy to use racism, immigration and anti-Europeanism as their stairway to the stars - pragmatic racism.
Our politics today consists of a bunch of cynics from all the major parties who will use every dirty trick in the book to hold office, and sadly, immigration has become a trump card at election time.
The present appalling situation in the world today, much exacerbated by our own policy of arms sales and general trade to and friendship with despots, the past destruction of our home manufacturing industries, which has flooded our shops with slave-condition-produced goods from abroad, not forgetting our reliance on oil, has led directly to a massive refugee crisis - producing a winning trump card at election time.
Want to win an election - simple - promise to stop immigration - nothing to do with racism, just simple parliamentary tactics (Britain isn't alone in this, of course.
Similar things are happening in Europe with the Le Pen dynasty in France, or in Turkey, or in Hungary.... or all those countries slamming the doors on desperate people to appease national Xenophobias – a terrifying re-emergence of extreme rightism.
I think it would be wrong to put what is happening today to political racism – parliamentary politics are guided by widening the wealth gap and staying in office.
Sure – there are racists in every section of society, politics included, sadly among working people too, but as far as politicians are concerned, pragmatism rules O.K. and it always did.   
If you believe that this lot are driven by racism – I disagree with you - you are assuming they have a guiding philosophy, which I don't believe they have
If you are saying that they are happy to use our inherent Xenophobia as a nation to stay in office and protect their privileges – I'm with you all the way.
Both are racist in effect, but not every racist is a RACIST, if you know what I mean.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 08:52 AM

Well if you're a pragmatic racist, as you put it, in other words letting your policies of trying to keep immigrants out and treating those who are here differently to everyone else do the talking for you, very likely because you feel the need to trump UKIP, you might as well be a real racist for all the difference it makes. In fact, demonisation is more efficient when it's done more subtly, as opposed to doing it the BNP way. Read akenaton's 09 Feb. 5.55pm post again. That's the effect that politicians' rhetoric has on feeble-minded people. That's what I meant by softening people up in order to get them to take illiberal immigration policies onboard. I should thank him for providing me with the example.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 09:23 AM

I say again that it is a great error to equate UKIP with the explicitly racist parties. I just do not believe that to be its motivation, either implicit or explicit. IMO the 1974 Europe con was a disgrace, in the toils of whose iniquitous outcomes we are still enmeshed with no hope of escape but for some sort of policies equating to those of UKIP. At 84 it is not likely to affect me for much longer, and I have no children -- tho now I have step-children thru my second marriage, I feel a bit more personally concerned than I did a few years ago.

I agree, Jim, with your postulation that "The British political system has long abandoned any pretence of representing the people of these islands - it has become a political scrabble to hold office - a career move...". And not only the British, but all. I have always said [& have probably posted here before] that the existential paradox is that anyone who wishes to make his livelihood and career in politics is the last person on whom the responsibility for governing others should ever devolve. But the problem is, what to do about it. Anarchy was probably one putative attempt at an answer -- but the built-in absurdity of anyone's seeking office on an 'Anarchist' ticket is only too explicit & obvious. My grandfather BTW, a Yiddish journalist and Jewish political activist, knew Kropotkin; my father remembered his visiting their home during his adolescence.

This is not meant to be a constructive post; rather one of despair... Anyone see any way out of the impasse I postulate?

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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 09:49 AM

You can't deny that much of the Tory "strong on immigration" rhetoric before the election was made in fear of Ukip's burgeoning popularity. They were running scared. As for Ukip, OK so they wrong-headedly want us out of Europe, which they demonise, xenophobic but not in itself racist, but they also also demonise immigrants by suggesting that they may have terrorists embedded, etc., and they talk up, inaccurately, the supposed burden on our benefits system, our jobs market and infrastructure. All on the record and all very close to what many would see as full of the usual, dismal racist undertones that we'd condemn if it were about black people. Ukip signally fails to draw a line in the sand in order to separate what's acceptable in their own ranks and what isn't. The Tories at the very least had to go along with all this and try to look even stronger than UKIP. It was an unedifying spectacle. Principles and fair play could go hang. The effect on the people's perception of immigrants was far less important to the Tories than watching their arses. Pragmatic racism? You say tomayto, I say tomato...

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:00 AM

"you might as well be a real racist for all the difference it makes"
Quite agree Steve - the effect to the recipient is the same either way, but in terms of what we are discussing, the driving force behind that racism is not Xenophobia or hatred of other races, as I perceive 'racism' proper to be, but a cynicism to use other people racism.
The doors and bands, I suspect, were not to actually persecute the wearers or the tenants, that would be counter-productive, but to be able to find them in a hurry if the need arose, ie. to fulfill election promises and to keep an eye on us.
This doesn't just apply to Asylum Seekers or even immigrants, but to all of us - hence Michael Howard's efforts to store as much information about us on identity cards.
None of this is beyond the realms of possibility - it's the desire of all Governments - democratic or otherwise - modern technology has put this within their grasp.
Over the last few months I've used the net extensively - to buy books or computer software or to find hotels.
THe minute you log off you're inundated with ads for similar products - recently been getting a load of ads for Dublin hotels appearing as pop-ups on my screen - from a dozen different companies - sorry, but I find that disturbing.
Of course, there is no evidence that this was a deliberate ploy by the Government to tag asylum seekers - I described it as only a possibility from the beginning, but it's what's happening more and more in the world today - particularly in the U.S., and where they go, we invariably follow.
None of this has anything to do with "persecution asylum seekers, as these two dickbrains lyingly claim, but simply a method of keeping tabs on them.
Some people don't mind what's happening - I do - I don't trust a society that can elect a fascist who uses our police force as a private army and describes a South American mass murderer as 'her kind of democrat' as a Prime Minister, or has a police force that even finds itself "institutionally racist".
If anybody wants a peep at how safe a pair of hands our economy is in at present - I suggest they seek out the somewhat difficult film, 'The Big Short', about the 2008 economic crash - anger-making and frightening at the same time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:07 AM

If you are happy in Europe, Steve -- your privilege. And I hope it keeps fine for you & doesn't all end in tears. As I say, not going to affect me for that much longer, any way you slice it.

But I find an odd sort of paradox in someone who would, I am sure, regard himself as an enlightened believer in the democratic process using a term like "Ukip's burgeoning popularity" in tones of pejorative putdown! Democracy fine, so long as the unenlightened proles all vote the way you think they should, hey? Have you even thought of asking yourself why their popularity was 'burgeoning'?

≈M≈