BS: Let them all go!

Subject: BS: Let them all go!
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:19 AM

Pentagon: 61 ex-Guantanamo inmates return to terrorism
Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:32pm EST

By David Morgan

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon said on Tuesday that 61 former detainees from its military prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, appear to have returned to terrorism since their release from custody.

Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell said 18 former detainees are confirmed as "returning to the fight" and 43 are suspected of having done in a report issued late in December by the Defense Intelligence Agency.

Morrell declined to provide details such as the identity of the former detainees, why and where they were released or what actions they have taken since leaving U.S. custody.

"This is acts of terrorism. It could be Iraq, Afghanistan, it could be acts of terrorism around the world," he told reporters.

Morrell said the latest figures, current through December 24, showed an 11 percent recidivism rate, up from 7 percent in a March 2008 report that counted 37 former detainees as suspected or confirmed active militants.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:46 AM

Anyone in the market for a bridge to nowhere???

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:23 AM

Bruce, what place are you gonna use to dump the immense volume of your parroting non-commentary when Mudcat's down? I normally get my news from the news, and I normally avoiding looking at anything you post, but I dread thinking about you vandalizing/copy-paste bombing some other poor website.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:27 AM

Jeri, I look at the news from many sources. Sorry if what is treported does not met your desired viewpoint.



And when I see similar comments about the one-sided viewpoints presented here on other topics by such as Amos and Bobert, I might even listen to your complaint. Until then, I have the right to post: at least I try to support my posts with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 12:57 PM

If we know they returned to terrorist activity, that must mean that we knew about their previous terrorist activity. Why weren't they charged and tried then?

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:11 PM

Knowing of their activity and proving it to the NYT's satisfaction in court are two different things.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM

LMAO.......Just when and where have you ever posted anything that was a definite FACT? And you rarely if ever state anything in your own words but rather "bomb" us with whatever crappola fits whatever it is that may or may not be on your mind!

Is there a Twilight Zone website?   I mean any type of alternate reality place where you can go and find the comfort of equally deluded friends so you can copy and paste each other to your heart's content?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

Gee, when I write up comments in my own words I am told that is just opinion, and I need to supply supporting facts. When I supply facts and sources, I am told that I should be giving my own opinion.

Sort of sounds like nobody is listening, anyway.


I guess I have to think like you all do, and base my opinion on what I want to believe instead of what the facts support.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:42 PM

It seems that the endless hatred and negative posting by Richard Bridge, McWrath of Hollow and the relentless Carol C have caused Pip and Jon Freeman to shut-down Mudcat's companion site The Annexe for ever. Nice job, hatemongers.

If there is no room for a variety of normal opinions on Mudcat, perhaps Mr.Spiegle should just pull the plug here too.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:47 PM

Oh, horse manure, PDQ. How's that for a variety of opinion?

I would love to know--not that there is any way to -- how many of these ex-prisoners would have gotten involved with terrorists on their return if they had never been interred in Gitmo in the first place. I would suspect it would be a much lower number.

The common thread of many of Bruce's postings is that others out there are doing awful things to us and we must strike back, get even, suppress them, overwhelm them with force, and so on.

The common thread that is omitted is any effort to understand what lies behind the animosity, or any enquiry on how to cure it. It may have escaped your attention that meeting protest with force does not resolve the protest, but merely suppresses it until it can come out.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:55 PM

If the USA and the Israeli military forces were placed in custody...and then you released them...they also would return to committing acts of terrorism. (and on a much larger and more effective scale than their Islamic opponents)

Since they are not in custody, however, it's a moot point, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:00 PM

BB-
I guess you mean that they were suspected of returning to the fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

Or that the evidence cannot be used incourt, without revealing sources and endangering the flow of future information. Dead spies don't give warnings of future actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:13 PM

A slightly long version of the story above tells a different story--

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM

PDQ..."...Mudcat's companion site The Annexe..."

1st, it never WAS Mudcat's companion site...it was an independent place run by Pip as a companion to Folk Info, and 2nd, it was SHE who decided to end it...not Jon. He merely provided technical support.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:41 PM

If I had been torn from my home & loved ones for years without anyone's knowledge of what happened to me & me not having any way to inform them or to prove my innocence i'd not only retun to where I was taken (my home) I do my bast to rid my homeland of the bastards who first invaded my home & then took me without cause. Now I;'m not saying that all the detainees were not quilty but to date how many did they have enough on to bring them to trial? If there was not enough to bring them to trial then there wasn't enough to hold them on in the first place. I'm sure we created more hate towards US then there ever was to start with & I'm sure we gave birth to a generation of people that will hold against what we did for many yrs to come.

BB when you see so many if's, but's & could be's it should raise a red flag feeling, you should then be suspicious. If not the there's something wrong with your judgment & questioning process. Do you believe everything your government's media throws at you? Do you question anything? Or do you just swallow?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:04 PM

What of the children that were imprisoned at 'Gitmo'? Does anyone doubt the hate & anger that they'll be burdened with & can you guess where the outlet of that hate & anger will be aimed at?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM

Bill D...you define "companion" your way and I will define it my way. My statement stands. The Annexe became a refuge for people to complain about Mudcat when it was down and also a handy place to bitch about Mudcat's moderation policy. I see why she felt that the effort to keep the site running was just not worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:00 PM

"...I will define it my way."

right... I see.

Back to Gitmo

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:36 AM

"the children that were imprisoned at 'Gitmo'?"


????

please elucidate

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 06:36 AM

Apparently there were three, all boys aged between 13 and 15, released about 5 years ago. They had been taken by the Taleban as "child soldiers" and luckily not inducted into one of their "suicide bomber squadrons". Illiterate when they arrived at "Gitmo" they were taught to read and to write, they learned to love football (forbidden under the Taleban) and apparently really loved American music and cartoons.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 07:08 AM

Thread drift, PDQ?

May I however say
1. If you bothered to read what I did say on the Annexe it was very reserved.
2. I am very pleased to be associated with McGrath of Harlow, of whose balanced and thoughtful posts I have long been an admirer.
3. I am also very pleased to be associated with Carol C who consistently presents a researched and understanding thread of argument in the face of vulgar abuse from - wait for it - right wing and misogynistic hatemongers?

On the main topic of the thread however, was it not the absence of a proper rule of law and the use of kangaroo courts inventing trumped up charges that drove the Founding Fathers to the USA?   If so, it surely follows that those who wish to follow in their footsteps should also insist that due process (without torture) was require to deprive anyone of life, liberty, or property.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 07:14 AM

Well said Barry Finn.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 07:49 AM

Not too sure about "was it not the absence of a proper rule of law and the use of kangaroo courts inventing trumped up charges that drove the Founding Fathers to the USA?".

If you mean the Pilgrim Fathers and such, they didn't go to America so much because they didn't want kangaroo courts, but rather because they wanted to run these themselves. The witch trials in Salem was just one example of this.

The drafters of the Constitution knew about that kind of stuff, and knew they weren't perfect - and they framed it in a way that was supposed to bind the hands of citizens of the new country against falling into those ways of thinking and acting.

Which has meant that kits only by acting in the teeth of the constitution and in contempt of its principals that the administration that is tottering to its end this weekend has been able to do these things.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 08:14 AM

BB says "...when I supply facts and sources..." IMHO, an extract from a newspaper article may be a source, but it is generally just that source's interpretation of facts supplied to it. The actual "fact" appears to be that a certain percentage of former inmates (approximately 11%) of the Guantanamo confinement facility have been identified as known or suspected to be, or to have been since their release, involved in some kind of (unspecified) terrorist activity. The confirmed rate is closer to 3%. Well, first, a 3% recidivism rate is, I think, better than that of violent criminals released from US prisons. Secondly, the definition of 'terroristic activity" can be, and has, been expanded to include such things as providing Cousin Abdul, an Al Quaida member, with a meal. Thirdly, most of those already released were let go because here was no proof that they did anything to justify being locked up in the first place, so the "return to terrorism" in the original headline is inaccurate to begin with.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 08:58 AM

I think if I'd been banged up for years in somewhere like Guantanamo without being guilty of anything, I might feel inclined to try to get my own back on those responsible when I got out. "Radicalisation" is the term used for that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 10:36 AM

I only posted on one thread during a period of two days in the last four or five years in the Annexe. Probably a total of five or six posts in all that time. I have not made more than a couple dozen posts total in the entire time the Annexe existed. So how I can be described as having posted there endlessly (or even hatefully) is beyond me, but I think is a very good example of how vicious the rumor mill is here in the Mudcat.

The Annexe was started in order to provide some relief to the endless fighting over music or BS that was present in the Mudcat before the split between music and BS was made, as we can see here in this post from the Annexe's creator...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=48687#732157

The Folkinfo site was created after the Annexe. After about a year, the Annexe was given to the mother of its creator, and the focus shifted from being Mudcat oriented, to being oriented to her socializing with her friends, and this change coincided with the creation of the Folkinfo site, as we can see in this post from the Annexe's creator...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=48687#732157

Some people (myself included) were unaware of this shift in focus.

The original owner of the Annexe explained that the reason the site was shut down was because the current owner felt a bit invaded by the people from the mudcat who only posted to that site to complain about the Mudcat being down (something I have not ever done even once, myself), and he said that the thread in which I participated recently was only the last straw.

It would seem to me that the only purveyor of hate in this case, is the one who is trying to spread vicious rumors and lies about me and a couple of other good people.

Why the hateful attack above should have been posted in this thread is also above me.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 10:42 AM

Correction:

Why the hateful attack above should have been posted in this thread is also beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:25 AM

I gotta theory :o


The right brained people here know that a fact can be 3 things; true, true and false simultaneously and false.
The left brained people know a fact when it agrees with their understanding.

Integrated minds express much less ego than a pure left handed mind while accepting of the fact that facts are flexible. (oops, I spit)
The best lawyers and judges have integrated minds.

It is inconcievable that anyone hates Carol or her pov, yet she feels it happens far too much. This is probably due to people who write things from a self centered point of view and rarely if ever take into the account of other people's feelings. In other words their is seldom true hate expressed here but rather a selfish perception with little compassion which is indicitive of a left brained person.

Left brained people are invaluable in certain areas of society and science just as right brained people are invaluable in other kinds of planning in society and science. It is just that when one or the other wanders outside their expertise, they are attacked by the other side.

Until we all get used to it or all become integrated brains, this conflict will be ongoing.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:29 AM

I tend to think it's more symptomatic of a tendency to scapegoat, myself. A lot of people need someone upon whom they can pile all of their concepts of badness, including the badness within their own self.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 12:03 PM

Teribus
"they were taught to read and to write, they learned to love football (forbidden under the Taleban) and apparently really loved American music and cartoons".

That sounds like a just/i/fact/ion that it's ok to take kids from their homes, not let them inform anyone (including parents) as to their whereabouts of their conditions, not let the children have thier one phone call, give them no recourse to refute their imprisonment but they did like football & the American music & cartoons & now they can read & write.
They probably could read & write but just not in English.
For you to justify imprisoned children with that statement is below your normal gutteral level

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 12:30 PM

""they were taught to read and to write, they learned to love football (forbidden under the Taleban) and apparently really loved American music and cartoons".

All sounds a bit similar to the way some people used to argue that the slavery was in the best interests of slaves. It seems that some things never change.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 12:58 PM

Merely stating the facts as reported:

Having been captured with Taleban forces in November/December 2001

1. They were not part of the main prison population in Gitmo
2. They were among the first prisoners released
3. They had been taken by the Taleban as "Child Soldiers"
4. They were illiterate when they were captured.
5. They now can read and write in both English and Pashtu
6. They have learned to play football and enjoy it
7. While in captivity they enjoyed listening to American music and watching American cartoons.

As far as I know they have not rejoined the ranks of terrorists. My guess is that had they stayed with the Taleban they would most probably now be dead.

Now what was Barry's contention again:

"What of the children that were imprisoned at 'Gitmo'? Does anyone doubt the hate & anger that they'll be burdened with & can you guess where the outlet of that hate & anger will be aimed at?"

Now if memory serves me correctly:

1. Recruiting "Child Soldiers" is a war crime - can't hear anybody complaining about that.
2. Instead of learning to blow themselves and other people up they have learned to read and write in two languages - No 'madrassa" would have taught them that. By the bye on capture I am more or less certain that they were first questioned in their own native tongue Barry, that is when their degree of literacy would have been established.
3. They learned to play games instead of killing people - Not much chance of the Taleban allowing them to play sport was there? Punishable by death.
4. Music and "moving pictures" Eh!!! Wow such cruel and unusual punishment for young teenagers - either activity would have resulted in their deaths under Taleban rule.

If I were them Barry Finn I know damn well who my hate & anger would be aimed at - The Taleban F**kers who'd robbed me of my childhood with all their ignorant, intolerant, medieval, bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 01:26 PM

The Bush administration supports Talabani 100%.

even more so since he blocked a shoe.

+++++++++++++++++++

I have finally heard some unreasoned ideas here that are so sick I sincerely pray for the writer's healing.

Imprisoning children for the hate and revenge we have provided them, for the rest of their lives, will not cure hate and vengence.
If one actually thinks it would be in the best interest of our citizens and our nation to continue these concentration camps, the "believer" is dangerously ill.


One might first read the auto biography of a former child soldier from Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 01:32 PM

they have learned to read and write in two languages - No 'madrassa" would have taught them that.

That seems very questionable. Children in a Madrassa would be learning Arabic as well as their language, in order to be able to read and recite the Quaran.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM

Em No Kevin they learn to recite the Quaran by rote, somewhere in the dim mists of my time in the region, I heard somewhere that it is a blasphamy for anyone other than a certain rank of scholar or cleric to copy from the Quaran, it must be written in Arabic and then translated.

No Kevin little Pashtu peasant boys from Afghanistan are not taught to read and write in Madrassas, they are taught the Quaran.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 06:01 PM

Here is a rather different account:

"A "madrassa" (sometimes transliterated into 'madrasa' or 'madrassah') is an Arabic word meaning "school." Typically it refers to an Islamic school for Muslims. It's similiar to a parochial school or more like a yeshiva, where the purpose is to teach children about the religion of Islam....

...Recently, people have come to associate madrassas in a negative light, amid accusations that many indoctrinate students with extremist views. Some accused extremist madrassas and "Deobandi seminaries" of forming the Taliban's reactionary policies. In reality almost 65 percent of the Taliban officials and workers at lower level had never been to any religious school..."

...Islam places a lot of focus on scholarship and learning. Science and philosophy is also taught, as it helps guide the person into a better perception of God and His creations on earth. Learning to read is an obligation for every Muslim, male and female. After a battle to protect Medina, Prophet Muhammad(saw) ordered that prisoners of war could be released once they taught ten people each to read."

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 10:22 PM

Either send them to a world court or let them go.

The process of our kangaroo military tribunal is a transparent sham.

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:51 PM

The point being T that the US government had no right nor coause to imprison children weither or not they were "Child Soldiers". Yes that in it's self is against international law & Geneva Conventions but it is no better or worst than "Child Imprisonment"! They should've been well cared for, not taken to an Island 5000 miles away, so that they could learn the American Way. Who cares that they were shown American cartoons? They will hate not only the US but the
Taleban as well, so we made them hate evenly? We could've done a hell of a lot better but I don't think we could've done much worst, except maybe given them a banjo!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Let them all go!
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 01:13 AM

IF you wanna stay alive long enough to be a man
Lemme tell you not to sign up with that Tali-ban
Go out in the yard and have a little fun,
Don't learn about religion,
Or firing a gun.
..It's not amusing...Getcha locked up...in Cuba!


(I can see some little Afghan boy plucking away on the banjo learning the Talking Blues...).