BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 03:21 AM

the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War

er - Georgi Markov - Bulgaria - I thought sarin was a nerve agent.

The difference, I assume, is that Gerogi was actively advising the secret services. Whereas in this episode the spy had long been debriefed and had been in prison in Russia. This would leave one to think there is a measure of spite involved.

Given the gravity of the accusation, I think we have to take it on trust that the finger pointing has a whole body of evidence behind it. Like the particular trace elements (or lack of them) in the residues of the nerve agent. Lets call it the fingerprint on that finger wot is pointing!
You can construct many conspiracy theories around it when you have only what the gov feed you and the papers (you so despise) re-interpret. It is a pleasant game but it ain't evidence ether. PAL!

Let's start with the one that says if Russia wanted to be the honest broker, and the substance came from their labs, they could cooperate with the investigation and reveal it was given to (say) Ukraine during the Soviet era. Even if Putin wants to huff and puff in his strong man pose, it serves him nought if Russia is not implicated.

And we could fall back on the "who has form?" stratagem.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 03:33 AM

Much as it irritates me to say it, Corbyn appears to be the only MP to have made any kind of sensible statement about culpability, or lack of it.
Now our gas supply from Russia is in jeopardy, and oh dear, that pipeline through Syria to bring Quatari gas to Europe has not happened.
As Laurel and Hardy would say:"a fine old mess"

Those dots appear everywhere. They probably join up eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 05:21 AM

Bobad thinks it’s all a jolly old game of spy craft , leave it to the craftsmen of the spying trade .Bloody civvies never so much as read Robert Ludlum should keep their idiotic opinions to themselves , arf arf .

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 06:38 AM

We've allowed Russia to obtain an entirely illegitimate toehold in this country by allowing our financial institutions to launder billions of Russian oligarchs' money. Successive governments have connived in that. Theresa May desperately needs to be seen to be acting tough. So she does that time-honoured and entirely ineffectual thing, boots out a few diplomats. She could hit Russia a lot harder by exposing and staunching the money-laundering. A slight hitch there would be that some of the those guys give money to the Tory Party. Well who'd have thought it. And Mr Red, it's looking increasingly like your claim and bobad's that we should trust our agencies and accept that they they know summat we don't know but wot they can't tell us is just about the biggest conspiracy theory of all. Saying that Russia probably dunnit cos it's wot they're like and they're Reds anyway and wot more do you need simply doesn't wash, and thank God there are a few sane and calm voices being heard today, Corbyn's for one. And have a look at Simon Jenkins in today's Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 06:42 AM

If you accuse me of doing something I didn't do, then give me 24 hours to explain myself, I'd tell you to sod off. Discuss...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 06:55 AM

the problem is I suppose that our government very obviously abused our trust over the WMD affair. How can we possibly believe them, uncritically?

In America, they seem to take this stuff in their stride. Daniel Ellsberg showed them the government was lying to them about Vietnam - they were bound to lose. Nevertheless the war went on for another 7 years, presumably so the armaments industry could screw a bit more loot out of the situation.

Lennie Bruce said - I'm from New York. Even when I was a kid, I was hip to corruption. I knew the mayor was corrupt, the police...I thought I was probably corrupt.

Somehow they still respect the edifice of government.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 06:57 AM

Senator John McCain has the measure of the man: "Vladimir Putin is a thug and a murderer and a killer and a KGB agent."

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:15 AM

And if Putin was taken to court on those charges after a leading politico had said that, Putin would be discharged as there could then be no possibility of a fair trial. Thing is, if we want to see justice done we have to follow the processes that make our justice systems work. Standing up and asserting yourself as judge, jury and hangman subverts those processes. Even though I might agree with the good senator.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:51 AM

I would add gangster to that list.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 08:01 AM

Kremlin’s campaign of bullying is designed to smooth the path for more interference in the Balkans and Baltic states, no mistake!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 08:08 AM

Well he may be all those things but we deal with him. We also sell dozens of fighter jets to the Saudis who are going to do quite a lot of harm with them in someone else's sovereign territory, the sort of thing we're currently complaining about in this country apropos of Russia. Every stitch of clothing I'm wearing today was made in what's about to become the greatest dictatorship in the history of the world. And we're desperate to make deals with Donald. Funny world, innit.

And Boris is saying that Russia's involvement is "overwhelmingly likely." In the words of Mandy Rice-Davies...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 10:42 AM

How about, the whole affair was carried out in the uk and not the US to remind Donald Trump about what happens to guys who betray the Russians.
Trump has not responded in person to the atrocity .... not like him, not even his "Thoughts and prayers"
If it had been in the USA and he hadn't reacted personally where would that have left him
As many have said in this thread it was done in a manner that gained the maximum publicity
Just a thought

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 11:06 AM

Have we ruled out the outlandishly entertaining [if only it were a hollywood spy movie] plot
that either pro or anti Trump USA Black ops [with or without USSR complicity]
did it to stir the world up a bit...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 12:05 PM

A film waiting to happen!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 12:30 PM

I like the conspiricy theory submitted that has it as a warning shot across Trump's comb-over.

But methinks they ** would stop short of Twitler and go for the soft underbelly like the Kushner fella. Even then - who can predict what his Hairness does?

** substitute whatever national government or Mafioski that takes your fancy.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 02:53 PM

It's all become rather tiresome now.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 04:08 PM

Ok b3l - We now need a plot for the sequel and a title that we can add to for the sequel
We need a Tele Savalas / Yul Bryner types for casting in Mudcat Movies + Office furniture (no casting couch allowed)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 04:30 PM

Tavarik Iains, The Russia State has been proven guilty.
Putin's response to this incident - "So what".


I understand his reasoning. Beyond this UK incident the Russian State attitude in justifying the hacking of most of the USA nuclear and power grid facilities to go critical is also justified in Putin's eyes. After all Russia is using the Stuxnet Mt Olympus coding that was invented by the US NSA and 'inadvertantly' ended up showing up in a Russian Firm. We blamed Israel but Russia blames us.

In this hot and cold war, Russia has its finger on the switch.
For now they are playing 'proportional response'.
They also have their finger on the US President.

It really is a serious Spy vs Spy real life cartoon.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 04:48 PM

"The Russia State has been proven guilty."

Some of us would prefer evidence to backup such assertions.
As yet there are merely unfounded allegations.
Unless of course Donuel has a hotline to God. This I feel is unlikely.
Therefore he must be a purveyor of false news.
Tsk, Tsk!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 05:02 PM

Some of us would prefer evidence to backup such assertions.
As yet there are merely unfounded allegations.

The evidence has satisfied the UK, the US, France and Germany, I don't think they're too concerned that it hasn't satisfied you.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 05:27 PM

The "evidence" has "satisfied" a bunch of leaders with agendas, not whole nations. Appeals to authority are not only unimpressive, they are intellectually derelict. Bonzo has a point: the whole thing is getting very tedious. Some politician or other is going to find another dramatic angle to keep this yarn alive. Watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 05:44 PM

British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said Friday it was “overwhelmingly likely” that Russian President Vladimir Putin was behind the poisoning of a Russian former spy,

words, words, words.

"overwhelmingly likely" is supposition, not fact. What on earth is it supposed to mean, overwhelmingly likely is still likely. It is also equally unlikely. It is not certainty. I would expect the foreign secretary to be a little more sure of himself before gobbing off.
I would not expect evidence to be publicised, but I would expect a definite statement that they have proof. Likely simply does not cut it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 06:51 PM

Its funny to me that Iains uses God as the ultimate authority of facts and truth. He is a holy hoot!

I'm on the Bill Mahre side of that equation and had a similar upbringing.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:08 PM

As a matter of fact, I absolutely and macro-solidly agree with Iains on this. I have an appointment with a therapist in the morning, and, believe me, the bastard charges double on Saturdays... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 05:23 AM

THIS killing seems to have been largely overlooked in all this
There was another 'mysterious' Russian death back in 2013 - "it's getting to be a habit with us", it seems.
Strange (not really) how those most ready to leap of the "antisemitism", "misogyny, sexual harassment and rape", "sleeper for a foreign power" and all the other politically generated band-waggons demand "proof" before they "hear some evil" about their own idols!!
Murders, (even mass ones), and human rights atrocities that are taking place daily will all be forgotten, as so many have, when it suits politics and big business for them to be so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:11 AM

From the place the Dr. Kelly came from.(the man who thought the dodgy dossiers on WMD were extremely dodgy.)

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/of-a-type-developed-by-liars/

“Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive”

Déjà vu??????????????????????????/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:22 AM

Excellent read, Iains. Don't worry - we'll resume battle another time... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:59 AM

We do agree on a few things Steve.
Another interesting scribble:


https://www.globalresearch.ca/modern-world-toxicity-casualties-toxic-combustible-insulation-toxic-nerve-agents-by-design-who-can

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 07:10 AM

SOMEONE ELSE waiting for the knock on the door
Jim Carroll

From The this morning's Irish edition of Sunday Times
RUSSIA HAS FINGERS IN ALL SECTORS OF IRISH LIFE’
John Mooney
Russia’s overseas intelligence service has sent agents to Ireland to spy on people involved in politics, economics, business and technology using diplomatic accreditation provided by the Department of Foreign Affairs, according to Irish intelligence sources.
The security services and military believe the SVR, which is the successor to the KGB, also sent an agent to Dublin to cultivate contacts under the guise of working in the media.
Garda Headquarters believes the SVR, which provides information to the Kremlin, is actively developing “sources” in all sectors of Irish life including politics, the media, technology and civic groups with a view to influencing political debate on Russia.
It is also involved in the dissemination of pro-Russian propaganda and encouraging nationalistic feel¬ings among Russian people living in the Republic.
Gardai have mounted at least one operation against the Russian agency, prompting it to withdraw a senior SVR officer from Ireland when his cover was detected three years ago. The SVR officer and a woman purporting to be his wife had been provided with diplomatic accreditation to work at the Russian embassy on Orwell Road in Rathgar, Dublin.
The SVR officer was deemed an “undeclared intelligence officer” by the government, which was briefed by intelligence services.
Yury Filatov, the Russian ambassador to Ireland, refused to comment on the activities of Russian spy agencies in Ireland last week.
Filatov described an article which appeared in last week’s edition of The Sunday Times on the activities of Russian intelligence as an attempt to manipulate the Irish public’s view of his country.
The ambassador described the article as propaganda, whose publication was linked to the escalating row between Britain and the Kremlin over a nerve-agent attack in Salisbury on a former Russian spy and his daughter.
Russia is regarded as a threat to Ireland’s national security as it has at least two secret agencies actively operating on Irish soil, according to security sources. The garda and military believe the GRU, the military intelligence branch of the Russian army, is also running covert operations in the Republic.
Russia sought permission from the Department of Foreign Affairs to open a section for its FSB security services, but the government refused. It has allowed the Russian administration to send a colonel and a captain to work as defence attaches at its Irish embassy.
The foreign department yesterday said it was not policy to comment on such matters, when asked if it had refused permission for the FSB to operate in Ireland. A spokesman said it was not in the public interest to answer such questions.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 07:33 AM

The plot thickens with a predictable allegation of a US false flag operation based on allegations of unnamed scientists.

Even Steve is gullible at times and prone to readily accept an Iain link. It says more of the quality of propaganda than Steve's wisdom.

A skeptic would at least withhold judgement.

In the words of a Brit; "The opposite of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge".
Steven Hawking

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 07:46 AM

I think I will keep saying excuse me:


http://www.bitterrootbugle.com/wp-content/gallery/patriots/black-sheep-heading-upstream.gif

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 07:54 AM

Patriotism???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 07:57 AM

Don't be silly, Donuel. I seek out multiple sources and I have stated that in my opinion the odds are on Russian involvement. While I still think that, to me it's looking more doubtful by the day in this instance. At the very least there appears to have been a rush to judgement and it's notable how the drip-feed of "evidence" has dried up. Iains' source is one of many I've resorted to and I'm constantly on guard against confirmation bias. In fact, I dislike Putin and his regime intensely and the last thing I would do is strain to find ways of letting him off any hook. As for "accepting an Iains link" I can assure you that I read it end to end then spent a quarter of an hour looking up the author's credentials. If anyone's gullible, it's you for dismissing a piece of writing because it's an "Iains link." By all means dismiss it because it's shite if that's what you think. That's what I do with his Express and Mail and Guido links, once I've read 'em. Right?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 08:23 AM

I note that those demanding sources for the government's allegations are more than willing to accept the word of someone who cites an unnamed source for his information, information that earth shatteringly splits hairs in uncovering that some (one?) investigators think that on evidence it is of a type developed by Russia not that it was produced by Russia. This coming from someone who says he doesn't see the motive for it being Russia - he can't be that stupid can he?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 09:28 AM

Happy Putin Election Day'

A great baaa baaa Thud...will rise over Russia tomorrow Iains.

"Its not who people vote for, its who counts the votes that counts most"
Vladimir Putin

You can goad the Brits so far and that's all.
Churchill's original War Cabinet wanted appeasement.
Then the people rallied against the threat.
All it takes is a leader to define and demand a fight
against the foe on the beaches, the fields, the streets and their computers.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 09:36 AM

There is a constant narrative being fed to us all. The purpose is to demonise Russia. Why is that do you think? Putin makes a lousy role model for an angel, but conversely he is not the devil incarnate either. His security forces act no differently to others. In fact there is far more in the public domain to make the CIA out to be far greater troublemakers than the KGB ever managed to be.
This constant poisonous drip feed of unsubstantiated rumour is designed to manipulate us all into supporting yet another major war in order the military industrial complex can keep up the profit margins.

Interestingly Kennedy, in one of his last speeches:
“The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it."
and:
"For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations. Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed."

He was shot shortly after.

Previously Eisenhower warned:
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

Its about time the citizenry became alert and knowledgeable methinks!
Who is deep state batting for I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 10:05 AM

"The purpose is to demonise Russia."
Same with Syria of course!!
Pity we've all got teles and work out for ourselves what's happening for ourselves
We really aren't all sheep Iains - just some of us who choose to be
Let's face it - we'll never be given the full fact of this if our 'betters' decide we don't need to know
It's far more interesting and rewarding to work out why this is happening and why the various governments are reacting the way they are
THese ongoing incidents are manifestations of a society past its sell-by date and in decline - a battle for control
Russia and the former Communist states are the new kids on the block, fighting for world political and economic dominance in a system that has gone international
Interference in other nations' elections and economies is now par for the course.
Basically, they are doing nothing the U.S. hasn't been doing since the end of W.W.2., only they don't have the excuse of "fighting for freedom and democracy any more"
Nor have they the passive support that the U.S. once had to get away with what they dod.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 10:14 AM

The purpose is to demonise Russia.

No need to demonize Russia, Putin does an admirable job of it himself.

A short list of Putin's victims:

Sergei Yushenkov
Paul Klebnikov
Alexander Litvinenko
Anna Politkovskaya
Natalia Estemirova
Sergei Magnitsky
Stanislav Markelov and Anastasia Baburova
Boris Berezovsky
Boris Nemtsov

These are just the most prominent victims, there are others like Vladimir Kara-Murza who survived two poisoning attempts and several who "accidentally" fell out of windows in tall buildings or suffered unexplained "heart attacks" while in jail.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 11:04 AM

Anything you can do I can do better............


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division

Keep trying!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 11:11 AM

Lol, totally false equivalence, nice try though.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 11:55 AM

The only point I make is that you cannot believe any of the bastards.
Where the truth lies is anybodies guess. However it does seem to me that manipulation is the name of the game and I do not like to think that I am being manipulated.
They say that history is written by the winners. Perhaps it is necessary to ask how they became winners. In this digital age the most convincing lies actually create history in realtime.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 12:23 PM

We are being manipulated, though it's instructive to see how the voices of doubt are gaining ground while the finger-pointers' imagination can only run to wheeling out an increasingly-shrill Boris (that paragon of truthfulness and carefully-chosen words) and to try to convince us that it could only have been Russia, with absolutely no new information for us. On the latter point, my personal conspiracy theory is that there isn't any.

To Donuel and bobad: yer man in Iains' link, who is absolutely not my kind of bloke by the way, knows no more about this than you or I do. But he is pointing to the time-honoured, devious ways in which politicians manipulate us using words. In that regard he is doing us a valuable service. It's about time that anti-Russian people started to see that people who cast doubt on Russia's involvement in this are not doing it because they're pro-Russian. We just want the truth, that's all. Or at least we want stuff that's beyond reasonable doubt. We have a long way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 12:34 PM

anti-Russian people

Correction, anti-Putin people (speaking for myself of course).

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:19 PM

The BBC photoshopping Corbyn's picture to make him look more Russian is the latest twist in the manipulation game. They deny it of couse but it looks pretty obvious there was some 'adjustments'. Like putting it over a background of th Kremlin. Do they think people will not notice?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:22 PM

No, "anti-Russian" is likely right .Or most probably, overwhelmingly likely to be right should I say.All the evidence points to it – although I’m not going to disclose the nature or the source of that evidence . As sure as Carlesberg is probably the best lager in the world, Steve Shaw is likely to be correct .

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:27 PM

My last comment was in reply to Bobad . DtG's message about the BBC got in the way .Where is the pic of a photoshopped Corbyn - any link?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:31 PM

I see it now : https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/bbc-russian-corbyn-photoshop/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:32 PM

I definitely meant anti-Russian. It's a Western tradition that predates Putin by many decades.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:32 PM

It's on t'interweb. Mr Google is your friend :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:32 PM

100!