BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:47 AM

One of the best resources I have seen on who did what to who in NI is the Sutton Database - See here

The following table is from the home page.

Summary of Organisation responsible for the death:

British Security 363
Irish Security 5
Loyalist Paramilitary 1020
Not known 80
Republican Paramilitary 2055

TOTAL 3523

3523 too many is my first comment. Anyone is able to do their own seaches and draw their own conclusions but will everyone please refrain from saying one side is any better than the other when it is plain that all sides were party to this massacre.

OK - The British Government may be trying to cover and hush it up but they are not making a very good job are they? OK - The IRA may have now stopped and apologised but they did kill more than all the others. Why can't all parties concerned accept that there have been huge mistakes on both sides and start to talk like civilised human beings again?

Would probably already be done if it were up to Mudcatters. Wouldn't it? ;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 12:31 PM

Makes you wonder what the figures would be if the Germans invaded Britain in 1940.
Then again it would be wrong to fight a army of occupation !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 12:46 PM

Dave, do you believe that justice should seem to be done in all cases? Do you believe that justice has been served equitably in all cases? That has been my point in all of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 12:49 PM

Makes you wonder what the figures would be if the Germans invaded Britain in 1940.

I don't think there would have been any NI issues if that would have happened, Guest, so there would not have been any figures. What is your point?

Then again it would be wrong to fight a army of occupation !

Why would it be wrong? I guess the English and Irish would have fought side by side to be rid of them. Don't understand that either.

Can you please clarify the point you are trying to make?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 12:58 PM

Sorry, Den - Was posting just as you did so didn't notice your question.

No, I don't think justice has been served. How can the justice that atones for hundreds of years of mis-rule and mal-treatment ever be served? Justice will only be served when the people of power give back what they have stolen from ALL the working classes. On both sides of the Irish sea. And that will never happen.

What we can best hope for is a quiet and steady peace where all of us 'ordinary' people stop believeing the lies that the politicians tell us about 'the enemy'. We are not enemies. Never have been. But that is how they keep us in check stop us from noticing that they are abusing us all.

There, off my soap box. Probably on file at MI5. Good luck to us all.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 01:51 PM

Disengenous (sp?) post, DavetG. His point is very clear. If the Germans had invaded and taken over GB, would a fight for freedom have been appropriate? A fight to rid the land of the occupiers? How long should it go on legitimately? Would the various British peoples be justified in maintaining a guerilla force for however long it took to be rid of the occupiers?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 02:40 PM

Well, Mick, it was rather ambiguous and I realy wanted guest to clarify for his/her own sake as much as mine. This is the internet remember and you realy need to make it clear what you mean if you don't want people to misinterpret you, either accidentaly or otherwise. Seeing as you have taken it upon yourself to clarify the meaning though I will take your remarks as helpfuly as I am sure you intended them:-)

I have already said Why would it be wrong? I guess the English and Irish would have fought side by side to be rid of them. and I stand by that statement. It would not have been wrong at all. To fight an occupying army is the prerogative of all occupied peoples. But where do you stop? Should we have murdered English and Irish policemen who were maintaining the laws of the third reich? Should we have gone and bombed civilians in German shopping streets? Should we have flown planes into the skysrapers of Berlin?

I, for one, can't answer these questions. You are a much better man than I am if you can. Fortunately it is all academic. Even more fortunately it is all in the past. Get over it for heavens sake. Both sides. There is no benefit at all in a blame allocation excercise. We have peace in Ireland now. Is that not what matters at the end of the day? Let's just make sure it doesn't happen again.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 03:13 PM

Mick,
I made the analogy earlier with California.
Would Mexican Americans there be justified in fighting a guerilla/terrorist war against USA? Their grievance is much more recent.

Den,
You should certainly apologise for keeping the whole Mudcat world waiting. Or maybe I should get out more.

No you did not call me a bigot Den. Sorry for that. I did take a lot of abuse from your side, but not from you. Again sorry.
I think that you did sort of suggest that I was coming from that general direction though.


The army arrived to protect the Nationalists.(We are never going to agree on this bit I know.) They stayed BECAUSE of the armed struggle begun by PIRA, and left when it ended.
Using soldiers to police a volatile situation always results in killing. I do believe the British army is better than others but it is still an army. And it did improve over the years.

About those numbers.
I thought we were discussing deaths directly attributable to soldiers. Are you sure you have not just moved the goal posts a bit?
I wish that we had cleared that up before I did all that counting and categorising. Just as well I don't have a life.

I am not a great supporter and defender of politicians, I think the wrong people are attracted to that trade for the wrong reasons.
I accept that the Stormont government was vindictive and repressive to the Nationalist community.
I honestly believe that the British Government meant well but did not know what to do. As I said, incompetence rather than conspiracy.
I think you are entitled to feel bitter about much of what went on.

You don't appreciate me inferring that you are acting like an adolescent. Good. That is how I feel when you tell me I have won.

Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 03:23 PM

So much for keith and and his statistics and information.

He writes,
The army arrived to protect the Nationalists.(We are never going to agree on this bit I know.) They stayed BECAUSE of the armed struggle begun by PIRA, and left when it ended.

Left when it ended ! There are 16,450 still in Northern Ireland.

The hole he digs gets deeper.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 03:33 PM

A review of the police investigation into the 1996 Manchester bombing has revealed that the IRA members behind it are unlikely to be brought to justice.

Greater Manchester Police (GMP) Deputy Chief Constable Dave Whatton made the announcement in the run up to the 10th anniversary of the bombing on 15 June.

He said that there was "no realistic possibility of a prosecution". Unless we can frame a few Innocent Paddies.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 03:49 PM

Guest 3.23
The army are off the streets.
The observation posts are dismantled.
Don't be deliberately obtuse

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 04:13 PM

Left when it ended or the army are off the streets. Please make your mind up.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 04:44 PM

There are probably more soldiers in Essex where I shop every week.
Why would anyone care?
They live in their camps, train in remote training areas, you are not aware of them.
Every country has soldiers.
They are stationed all over.
You know that is not what was meant by the army being present in NI
You are just spoiling an intelligent discussion between sensible people.
Go and learn to spell your name.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Carleton Finkbeiner
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 09:31 PM

From this side of the puddle it's clear to see the Irish problem, it's called Keith A of Hertford . A fine example of a broad minded Englishman !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 01:53 AM

Carleton Finklebeiner,
Like every named Guest here, you have chosen my little thread to make your first ever post.
It is gratifying to have brought so many new people into the Mudcat community.
Let me help you out on how things are here.
If you make a ludicrous statement like that without producing a single shred of evidence to support it, you are just an embarrassment to your side of the debate and, frankly, a waste of bandwidth.
Have a nice day now,
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 03:58 AM

It must be nice to see things so clearly though. If you make any statements against the IRA you are anti-Irish. If you make any statements against Israel you are anti-semetic. If you make any statemants against America you must be a terrorist.

What a lovely clean, simple life some people must lead. All cut and dried like that;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 04:25 AM

Maybe, maybe not. who knows?

Personally I wish you'd knock it off Keith.

these guys have made their points of view quite clear.

the Brish army are scum. Even when they liberate Europe they are scum - not to be acknowledged within their own families.

What the IRA do is occasionally regrettable but toally forgiveable as it is in the cause of a United Ireland.

Occasionally a dopey Guest calls in and congratulates them on their devastatingly accurate insights.

occasionally a hint is dropped that someone was actually engaged in this conflict.

maybe, maybe not. My instinct says not. We grew up with a generation that had been in a war. Men who have been near the action generally convey a sense of realising that a degree of dumb luck has kept them alive, and a sense of deep regret for comrades and opponents who didn't enjoy the same degree of luck.

The general tone is more reminiscent of 4th formers winding up a teacher.

Discusion is impossible without argument, argument apparently untenable without abuse. conflict is apparently the aim.

the whole atmosphere is predictable, but disturbing for all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 04:53 AM

GUEST,Carleton Finkbeiner what are you thinking, arriving here on the Keith Show. Do you not realise it's for members only ?
Unless that your one of the guests who came to support Keith.
Foe example a lady called Charlotte made her debut and Keith didn't seem to mind. She came back needing a word of consolement and Keith give her one. She left again happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 11:31 AM

Keith give her one. She left again happy.

That is one hell of thing to come out with. Hope his Missus isn't watching;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 12:48 PM

For all our sakes would someone end this stupid thread. Sick looking at it on forum list.

Great Keith, you beat the I.R.A.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 01:45 PM

its a matter of etiquette, Keith.

the Archbishop of Canterbury gets up in his vestments in Westminster Abbey. He tell the people , up above the clouds - Jesus hangs out with his Dad, God; and there is a Holy Ghost, who wafts around the place. One day, after we are all dead, this will be set to rights, the lion will lie down with the lamb, all things are possible.

YOU MIGHT THINK WHAT HE IS SAYING IS TOTAL CRAP. YOU MIGHT DISAGREE WITH HIM. YOU MAY HAVE SOLID PROOFS THAT HE IS WRONG, BUT YOU EXERCISE SELF CONTROL, AND YOU RESPECT HIS RIGHT TO THOSE BELIEFS WHICH HE OBVIOUSLY HOLDS SACRED AND GET HIM THROUGH HIS WORKING DAY - AND YOU SHUT UP.

These guys have Pearse, Connolly, Bobby Sands in their stained glass windows rather than St Peter and John the Baptist.

SHOW THE SAME RESPECT FOR THEIR SACRED BELIEFS, ANYTHING ELSE IS DAMNED BAD MANNERS.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 01:53 PM

Is Keith A of Hertford included in this summary ?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 02:35 PM

I have tried 3 times to wind this up now.
I am quite happy to leave Guest talking to himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 07:10 PM

SHOW THE SAME RESPECT FOR THEIR SACRED BELIEFS, ANYTHING ELSE IS DAMNED BAD MANNERS.

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 05:24 AM

Perhaps there is a lesson for the US in all this. Perhaps instead of trying to hunt down and destroy Bin Laden, he should be offerred a position in government. Then, who knows, one day he might say sorry for all the bad things he once did.
Then you could happily forget the WTC and embassy bombings as we must forget Bloody Friday, Enniskillen, Omagh, Warrington, Manchester, Baltic Exchange, Canary Wharf, etc., etc.,etc., etc., etc., etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Carleton Finkbeiner
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 07:25 PM

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 02:35 PM

I have tried 3 times to wind this up now.

Maybe you should rephrase that.
   
I have tried 3 times to wind people up.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 03:30 AM

I am still reading this in case anyone wants to raise a point for discussion.
We can just ignore this posturing buffoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:40 AM

We can just ignore this posturing buffoon.
Believe us Keith we are !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 05:05 PM

Gosh, that was clever, Guest. Where did you learn your line in sparkling wit and repartee? I bet no one else has thought of turning someones words around like that since, oh let me see, 5 years old?

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: John O'L
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 07:24 PM

This thread's work is done. Please someone put it to bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Carleton Finkbeiner
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 08:49 PM

Eu firmemente acredito que o irlandês são muito melhor em pondo em ordem o próprios negócios se parte só pelo inglês.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:59 AM

Translation from the Portuguse via Babel Fish-

"I firmly believe that the Irishan is very better in putting orderly the proper businesses if part alone for the English."

I think I understand it though on what planet writing the comment in Portuguese is putting orderly the proper businesses I don't know!

But you are quite right, John. It's getting silly. Or is that sillier?

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:21 AM

You are too harsh Dave.
Remember it only took him nine days to think up that one about me and Charlotte.
And he so nearly got it right, just saying "Keith give her one" instead of gave her one.
What a cracker.
And too modest to put his name to it!

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:26 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 02:35 PM

I have tried 3 times to wind this up now.



What's wrong, ego not allowing it ?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:32 AM

No Guest, I just respond.
I agreed to answer questions.
I will stand by it.
I don't think that Charlotte will have laughed at your "joke", if she ever visits mudcat anymore.
Are you proud of yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 07:27 AM

The really STUPID thing about your omplaint, Guest, is that, but for you, this thread would have finished on 7th June.
It is JUST YOU who have kept providing points to respond to since then.
You are indeed a posturing buffoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 08:52 AM

Security force collusion with loyalist paramilitary killers led to a number of murders in Northern Ireland.That's the British army and the Royal Ulster Constabulary Keith.

The killing of Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane and another Belfast man, student Brian Lambert, "could have been prevented" if the security forces had not been involved in collusion.

A report said: "We have identified serious shortcomings, highlighting collusion between Loyalist gunmen and the British army"

Collusion is defined as the failure to keep records, the absence of accountability, withholding of intelligence and evidence and the involvement of intelligence agents in the murders of innocent Catholics .

And we have to listen to some creep defend them. It's nothing short of atrocious.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 09:04 AM

But I have not, and do not, defend any of those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 09:07 AM

You are posturing again!

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 02:50 PM

And so, as the anonymous poster if Time confuses his identities in the hurried post of Fate, and as the long, finely honed post of Destiny is lost when the network server of Doom goes tits up yet again, we say goodnight to this thread.

Unless someone has one more issue to raise?

Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 04:39 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 02:35 PM

I have tried 3 times to wind this up now.


So why are you starting it up again when it left the thread list today?

Has to be the most boring thread EVER to appear on Mudcat. Drop it Keith please, nobody is interested in your one man war with the Irish.
Even the Irish have left you to it !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 04:02 AM

You do make me laugh.
You were so desparate for me to start this thread, and now you are desparate for it to stop.
So desparate that you keep refreshing it to say so!

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 05:18 AM

I imagine if people care to check above Keith has refreshed this thread almost daily ! Ego trip !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 06:12 AM

Keith
I left this thread on the 2nd June. It was going nowhere. You started it after questions were put to you in another thread about a film.

You answered some of them there and then started this thread which in my opinion became a joke. Which was the reason I left it.

You accused me of posting as a GUEST several times in a half assed manner. Keith understand as many of my friends here know, if I have anything to say, I will say it and with a name.

Frankly I am sorry to say I feel you lost credablitiy on this thread. In the past you entered many a debate with me and often you came out of it well, and we remained friends.

Sorry Keith I feel this thread has been a turning point for both of us. You hold a viewpoint, which you are entitled to. Sadly you don't respect my right to hold one.

As I have said many many times, I have seen a lot of injustice at first hand in my country and because I voiced this, you went on the attack. Also I hold a Republican view and understood why the IRA came into existance. I also welcomed an end to their campaign.

Think it's best that you ignore any posts after you respond to this one. Don't feed those who played with it. Understand Keith for all your allegations and Insinuations towards me posting as a guest I can CATEGORICALLY DENY involvement.

I don't think I have anything to add, so please don't ask me another question or seek a response regarding this post.

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 06:13 AM

Not true guest.
I wind it up but then someone makes a point and I respond.
Lately that someone has only been YOU.
Check it out.
Now, stop posturing and let it die.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 06:19 AM

Seamus I said sorry for accusing you of Guest posting, and say sorry again.
I never attacked you, only criticised the paramilitaries.
I respected everyone's right to a point of view, but exercised my right to challenge it.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 06:59 AM

Sorry to keep on Sweeney, but I am really taken aback by your comments.
Remember on 29th May I specifically said that I bare you no ill will, and accepted that there were likely to be circumstances in your past that make you feel the way you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 02:16 AM

I will be accused of prolonging this thread but having read it right through i must completely refute as utterly false Divis Sweeney's last post.
It is just a tactical lie to win sympathy.
There is NOT ONE place where I do not respect his or Den's or the Guests right to hold their views. I challenge them but in a subdued and polite manner.
Contrast that to the venom with which I was shouted down.

I did not even accuse Sweeney of Guest posting.
All I did was to point out some circumstantial evidence, at a time when I was the brunt of some unpleasant abuse from guests.
Elsewhere on Mudcat that is a normal debating tactic, but not for me.
I withdrew it and apologised.
I am still waiting for him to apologise for accusing me (in February)of making a guest post that proveably was made by him.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:15 AM

Can we change the name in the thread BS: Concern for Joe Offer's Mental Health !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:18 AM

199

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:06 AM

200