BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:18 AM

Sweeney,
I have no complaints about you defending, only about you refusing to defend your statements.
I also get bored with having to keep pointing it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 05:01 AM

Always best to allow others to decide our rights and wrongs Keith.

Think if you read above they have !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 05:07 AM

I would rather lose a debate than make unfounded, false accusations and personal attacks on the other side.
Enjoy your victory.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 05:37 AM

Not here for victory over anyone Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 07:52 AM

Keith, you said "I could not help noticing that you only imported the one bit of Republican propaganda that you found on a Loyalist site."

This person called "Tirgra" actually wrote to me on this Loyalist Website in reply to one of my post's that finally got throught to their Website. I was just inquiring about these issues that's all. I have been talking with Loyalist & Unionist supporters from other guestbooks, which I cannot seem to find reason with any of them about Irish issues, as they are so one-sided about things. I am not trying to post progaganda on any side of the fence here. I am myself not on any side here, but I just wanted to ask some Republican supporters, for a change, about these issues from their side of the fence on here. I admit I just get confused with what is real and what is not real about things that have happened in Ireland. I am sorry if I upset you in any way. It was not my intentions to upset anybody here, as I just wanted to discuss Irish issues that's all with someone that is a Repulican, Nationalist, or Catholic to hear their point of view. Kind Regards.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:01 AM

Divis, you said "Loyalists burned a catholic family called Quinn out of their home, I think it was around Ballymena, three children died in the fire."

Yes, you are right it was the family called Quinn where the three children died that this person called "Tirgra" was talking about. I never meant to upset Keith on here. So I am sorry. Kind Regards.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:21 AM

Dear Alison
Don't ever say sorry here for speaking the truth. You were right to use the example which you did.

You are very welcome to discuss Irish issues here with us, frankly I feel that remark made against you by Keith was uncalled for, but never allow this to cause you annoyance, don't expect an apology either !

Irish related manners tend to stir up emotions here from time to time, but we sort it out in the end.

Regarding the murders of those three children by Loyalists on behalf of the Orange Order, here is a news report about it.
Best wishes

Three young brothers have been murdered in a loyalist arson attack in Ballymoney, Northern Ireland.

The boys - Richard Quinn, 11, Mark Quinn, 9, and Jason Quinn, 7 - were asleep in their beds when a petrol bomb was thrown through a window at the rear of their terraced house at about 0430 BST.

Their mother Chrissie, 29, her boyfriend Raymond Craig, 31 and a family friend, Christine Archibald, 18, escaped with minor injuries and are suffering from shock.

The Quinns were Catholics living on the predominantly Protestant Carnany estate, but they were accepted by the community and attended a Protestant school. Mr Craig is also a Protestant.

A fourth brother, Lee, was staying with his grandmother.

Threatening letters

Chief Constable of the RUC Ronnie Flanagan said: "What happened last night wasn't protest. We believe we're investigating the sectarian murder of three children."

The attack comes after a week of protests by Orangemen demanding access to the mainly nationalist Garvaghy Road as part of their annual march at Drumcree church.

Over the past week Catholic and mixed families across the county have received abuse and threatening letters.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:32 AM

Alison, did I not start by saying how lovely it was to have your voice in the discussion?
I really did not think I was being unfriendly.
You never need to worry about upsetting me.
Say what you think.
I know you would not stoop to making false accusations as you have seen others here do.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 10:12 AM

Joe Richman,

I acknowledge youre right in listing all those you did as typically brutal & heavy-handed national forces.

I actually just used the Americans & Israels as "topical" examples, if I can call it that.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:00 AM

No problem Paul.

My Dad had a good time in the US Army. Got his nose bashed in fighting up in weight class. I also have friends and family in the US military currently, but they're Navy. The US public is not too tolerant of non-combat abuses, so this limits how bad the US army can get in a peacekeeping role, although it is difficult to make charges stick in any such case. Certainly an open policy of being savage such as the armies I mentioned in my previous post isn't there.

From what I know about Israel's army, they are very much a cross section of the Israeli population since service is universal (except for most Arabs). As the enemy has shifted from Nationalist to Islamist, I think Israel has gotten rougher. Fighting an enemy that believes in suicide attacks is going to cheapen one's sense of value of human life. "If they don't value their own lives why should We?"

In Ireland, the so-called "Catholic" side has always really been Nationalist. However, as near as I can tell, Rev Paisley is not an Ulster Scots Nationalist. Mr Sweeny or others from NI may want to confirm this. He strikes me as more of a religious fanatic. Very difficult to do anything with, just as the Israelis were more able to deal with the Nationalist Fatah than with the religious Hamas.

Joe

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:32 AM

I came across another interesting NI music website. Here's the URL:

http://www.fifeanddrum.co.uk/Diana/thesis.htm

Near the end is an interesting story of "cooperation" between the Hibernians and the Orange Order. I won't spoil it for you.

Joe

More rottenness from Joe! Turning this BS thread back to music.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:34 AM

Joe,
Paisley is one of the more extreme leaders from the protestant community. They are mostly pro British rule and are the majority vote in the North.Their majority is dwindling. It is less common to define by religion now. They would be called Unionists (as in United Kingdom) or Loyalist (more extreme)
The Catholic community tend to be Nationalist, i.e.Irish Nationalist, or (more extreme) Republican. They are now the majority population, but not yet at voting age.
Hope that helps,
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:37 AM

That is OK with me Joe.
It is Sweeney and Epona who hate the music.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:07 AM

Keith A of Hertford you appear very self-righteous and continually indignant.

One of your most typical characteristics is your readiness to judge another person's actions and general behavior without ever taking the trouble to determine the real reasons and all the specific circumstances attached to their post. You deem it sufficient to know that someone failed to conform to your demands and then pronounce sentence upon him.

Consequently you handle all the different members who take part in Irish debates as being on one and the same level. When you read of someone's personal experience you become fully justified in indignantly condemning that person for as if he incurred it upon himself, despite the fact he produced valid proof of the actions in question and they were unquestionably true.

Even if Divis Sweeneys "crime" is merely a violation of local Irish tradition, you will respond with full-fledged moral indignation, the more so if the act could shock the site and could in any way be related to a current political issue.

You always tend to suspect the worst in people who speak against any British policy, and you always presuppose and anticipate what their reply will be. You are characteristically opinionated and unshakable in your opinions.

One of your most hideous features is when you are rightly blamed by someone for posting incorrect information, you will neither respond nor admit your fault. You will play the part of the individual, unjustly attacked.

You try so hard at shifting the theme in every thread towards republicans, and you will twist the situation into an occasion for exhibiting your forbearance. This attitude embodies an infamous hypocrisy, even calling on other members to elevate and praise you. You also seem to anticipate "being elevated" in the eyes of other members through a sham humiliation.

Allow other their viewpoint and the pursuance of their cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:28 AM

That is a bad stutter guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:38 AM

Keith A of Hertford When and where exactly did the two members you name say they HATED the music ?

Please provide evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:52 AM

Oh the little pixie in Keith A of Hertford is pushing the boundry to see what happens today again. Sad really.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:59 AM

RE: BS: PIRA Invests In Manchester
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney - PM
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 06:37 PM

If your not saying the right things then you shouldn't be on it. So why have this section ? It was recently brought to my attention via a friend. So sorry no interest at all in Blues, folk, jazz, country, gospel of diddle dee music

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Scully
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:00 AM

Please close this bloody thread of his. It goes away and he resurrects it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:00 AM

Subject: RE: BS: PIRA Invests In Manchester
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney - PM
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 11:27 AM

eric the red. Why is that what you have to do to get into your gang? list musical rants ? My taste is Jimi Hendrix, Curved Air and Motorhead. And we did a lot more than plant bombs in litter bins. And I am very proud of the work our boys did.And no I am no idle boaster. Next question.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:03 AM

Keith A of Hertford that is not good enough. You said TWO members HATE the music. Please provide us with the posts in which both members use the word HATE.
Thank you

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:03 AM

Look again Scully.
It is not me who resurrects it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Scully
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:05 AM

Christ what is this guy going on about now ????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:09 AM

Keith where is the word HATE is the above post please. And when did Epona say it ?

What is this about ?

Did these two names members say they HATE the music, YES OR NO ?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:13 AM

Fair point Guest.
Please delete "hate" and insert "do not like"

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:19 AM

Date: 09 Oct 05 - 06:13 PM

Never have explored the music threads...not once. I joined for the discussion on the BS threads, for the chance to learn things that I had not been exposed to before. So, no, not everyone is here for the folk first, though it's definitely possible that many are! I hope this helps explains some of our presence (non-folkies in mudcat land).

E

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:27 AM

Good Morning Keith,

I hope I find you well.
Oh dear it's doesn't look good for you so far ! Do I see nasty little pork pies today again ?

Really Keith, I never ever said I HATE the music. Can't speak for Epona, still sleeping I would imagine, don't worry I will pm her and let you know lies are on the menu today again !

Doesn't look good for you in the popularity stakes reading some of comments above.

Then again a willingness to embrace the truth and apologise isn't one of your strong points.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:33 AM

Big difference in that and the word hate. So have either member used the word HATE ?

Yes or no? If not this makes your statement a lie, does it not.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:36 AM

Not a lie, just exagerated do not like to hate.
Which I have already corrected.
It was a year ago!
But what do you mean "again"
Where and when have I ever lied?
Examples?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:43 AM

Oh Keith is that your way of saying sorry you wrote something which was not true about me ?

Hope Epona is as understanding.

Hope your day takes a turn for the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Epona
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:48 AM

Keith, where and when have you ever lied? Here's an example. When you said I hated music. And then changed that statement when challenged to "do not like". And we're drifting again....

And how about that's the last I'll discuss that with you? You start to faulter and you change the subject. When you have something new to say, let me know. Hopefully I won't need my walker to get to my computer by that time.

The horse is dead...let's move on.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:55 AM

Morning Epona

I am used to this with Keith. One of the reasons so many other members leave the Irish threads.

Did you note he is yet to use the word SORRY !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Epona
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:02 AM

I'm shocked! :) What did you expect, Divis? I'm off to save lives (haha)...

E

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:13 AM

Read your posts again Sweeney.
It comes across that you do hate it without using the word.
If you say that is too strong, I accept it and have already toned it down, but most people would make the same mistake reading those posts.
It does not make me a liar, and if you can not come up with some other example you should take it back.

Epona, if you emphasise that you never, ever look at the folk threads it does sound like you hate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:55 AM

Right so what your saying Keith is you can read my posts and Epona's and if a meaning "comes across" to you, you can change the word, for example to "HATE" or like "MURDERER" ?

Yes understand you now.

Regarding "most people" making the same mistake reading it, I haven't noticed anyone else coming on saying, Divis you and Epona are saying you HATE the music, well not yet anyway.

Ah well maybe a Guest or two will appear before the day is done and support your case !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:59 AM

Divis, I finally got my post through to the Website F.A.I.R. to reply to the person called "Tirgra." I had to word it carefully so it was not bias to either side of the fence. I just wanted to pre-warn you that they have been discussing the Mudcat Discussion Forum again. They are truly unfair people. To be honest they are like snakes waiting to bite someone that is not agreeable to them. I think they will be back on here soon as it seems that they are building up support first. Kind Regards.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:00 AM

Are you really saying, Sweeney, that it is impossible to convey hatred without using the word hate?
Of course not.
And you conveyed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:47 AM

Hello Alison

Hope all well with you. Really don't worry about those guys at F.A.I.R. seen in the local paper that any government funding they were getting has been stopped because of some statement they made on television. So maybe they are just angry.

There are much nicer people here !

Don't worry about their snakes waiting to bite, some appear here from time to time, but just like St, Patrick I tend to deal with with them !
That's if they haven't already bitten themselves in the ass !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:35 AM

to Divis Sweeny:

1) In your opinion is Ian Paisley an Ulster Scots Nationalist or a religious nutcase? (Or perhaps something else?) When I asked before,only Keith answered, and He's not from NI (although I value his opinion). No matter what Republicans think of him they have to deal with him.

And a new question....

2) Is it true that the IRA/Sinn Fein intimidated the Ancient Order of Hibernians as mentioned in that link I gave?

Joe

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:49 AM

Dear Joe
One thing we can't do is dismiss Ian Paisley. He is the leader of the largest political party in the North of Ireland. Spoke to a friend last week who attended the talks with the D.U.P. and he said he was a lot more reasonable than he comes across on television.

Yes we can say he is this and that and a bigot, but he is very charismatic and does a great job for the people he represents. He belongs to a very different culture from myself, but I still respect him, only a fool wouldn't. I don't respect his views of nationalists/republicans or some of the groups he was involved in or some of the statements he made.

When someone can weld so much power and authority they need to be careful how they influennce the young. I feel during the early years of the troubles, he made a poor job of this. Actually he is hated more among the loyalist UFF,UDA and Red Hand Commando, he speaks out again their leadership a lot, yet never refuses their support at rallies. He was also the voice who ripped through the Ulster Unionists for their involvement with David Ervine an ex UVF bomber.

I would call him a Ulster Scot who hates catholicism and has a fear of anyone talking to British ministers wishing to break the union with Britain. I also think as he gets older and steps down a new younger breed will be much easier to talk to. He falls out with everyone, fell out with the church and started his own church, fell out with the Orange Order and started his own lodge. Fell out with the Unionist party and formed his own party ! And has a great following in all of them. A fool can't get that much support.

Sorry John I can't speak on behalf of Sinn Fein, I can only express a viewpoint. I do know there is no love lost between them and the Hibs.
What you linked there could well be true. I know many older republicans hold a great dislike for the Hibs, I think it comes from their leadership speaking out against the armed struggle on more than one ocassion. There was a group called the Hibernian Rifles which fought in the rising of 1916. They were funded by America. They formed in 1914 and numbered in hundreds. Eight died in the rising, few of them actually turned up when the fighting started. They never want associated with them today. There was a leadership connection.

Best wishes and hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:42 PM

Thanks Divis, the Website FAIR has finally admitted in their guestbook that my posts have been blocked out of their site. They saying that I think that Catholics should be able to have a say and also Catholics should be allowed to live too. They finally got something right!!! They have been discussing the Mudcat Forum and from reading what they have been saying, they have been reading our posts here as they have made comments about things I have said recently. It is important for the world to know the truth about the Website FAIR. I am glad people like you can have a say on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:53 PM

Alison I seen these guys on the street here, they are like the BNP you see over there, very small following and don't really have a lot to offer. I would imagine they wouldn't take to me then ! Stick with us and I am more than glad to answer any questions you may have. Stay away from that crew on F.A.I.R.
Take care

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:33 PM

Divis, you said "Stay away from that crew on F.A.I.R."

Thank you, but I do not have a choice now, as I am blocked out from them. They don't seem to understand that their Website is misleading the public. When I first found this Website FAIR, I thought is was a genuing site about all victims of conflict, but I found it to be one-sided. It is also anti IRA and this does not help to bring peace to Ulster if they anger the other side of the fence to them. I understand that there are probably some real victims attached to this Website FAIR. Maybe if they stated in the title that it was all Loyalist and Unionist victims in the first place then maybe people might have not got so offended over it. I am not trying to offend anyone on either side of the fence here, but they cannot say that Catholics cannot exist. Kind Regards.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:31 PM

Alison
Probably their way of saying they don't want anyone speaking against them. We welcome everyone here, and your post needs to be really bad to get the axe here.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:10 PM

Divis,

One reason why I don't care much for the IRA is what I perceive as a "my way or the highway" attitude. Intimidating an organization such as the Hibernians because they have chosen not to engage in violence is exactly what I would have expected from them prior to their current incarnation. Now that Sinn Fein is angling for votes, they can't afford to alienate so many groups on the Nationalist side, which certainly would include most Hibernians.

I don't hear much about the AOH out here in California, but I think they're big back east in NY and Boston (the St Pat's parades). Out here in the West we have the Knights of Columbus as the big Catholic men's service organization. I'm Protestant (a Wesleyan background), but the K of C helps out with the local handicapped population on a non-sectarian basis, and my daugher (who is handicaped) has been helped by them. She also goes to a program at a local Presbyterian church (United Presbyterian, not Free Presbyterian). In a civilized community, non-political service organizations play a big role in making life better for all.

I thought it was kind of funny, the idea of a shared Lambeg drum repainted for March 17th and July 12th. It is symbolic of the sort of cooperation between the two societies in NI that will be needed for a brighter future. It is sad also that the Lambeg drum, whose roots are    probably non-sectarian in Ireland, has been relegated to use only by the Protestant community when it once was popular in both communities.    In a way it is a bit like the instrument I play: the 5 string banjo. Originally played almost exclusively by Blacks, it now is played almost exclusively by white Country musicians. The use of the banjo in Minstrel shows that belittled Blacks made it unfashionable. It almost died out but was resurrected by Country string bands.

Maybe my dislike of Paisley is because I'm a Protestant from a different branch of the Faith. Methodists, Charismatics and related Pietists don't tend to believe in the Calvinist doctrines of the Elect and Predestination. And Paisley's wierd love of the King James Bible is way over the top. I think he likes it because most of his congregation can't understand it, so they have to take his word for what it means. As I recall, King James was a High Church Anglican who loathed Presbyterians. Many of his relatives were Catholic, too.   At Churches I have attended, a Catholic is welcome to take communion as long as they are Believers in Christ. Of course if I agreed with Catholic Doctrines that differ from Protestant ones I'd convert. I never will, of course.

Joe

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 09:46 AM

Sorry Joe
Just read in the other thread "Folkies who support the IRA" A message from Keith saying you reqiure an answer from me ? Please let me know what question he is talking about, glad to answer anything.
Best wishes

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 10:42 AM

Sorry Joe, just spoke to Keith, misunderstanding. We now see no questions were posed.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:26 PM

Divis,
You answered honestly the question I had. Keith gave his opinion, too (about Paisley). I hate to say it but you seem to have a higher opinion of Mr Paisley than do Keith or myself.

Joe

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:46 PM

Don't like the man Joe, He has zero tolerance of the likes of me and what I believe in. I feel it's very important that we do not under estimate our opponents. When a member of my family was murdered he was the first to make a public statement in which he condemned those responsible and when a reporter put a question to him that many believed paramilitaries were not behind it and that a more 'sinister element' was behind the murder, he said he would not dispell this theory. At the time I thought this to be Out of character for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:37 PM

Divis,

I see where you are coming from.   You see Paisley as a wily but principled enemy whom you can't afford to underestimate. Keith and I see him as an embarrassment; Keith sees him as an embarrassment to the British, and I see him as an embarrassment to Protestant Christians.
(Please correct me, Keith, if I have misspoken on your behalf.)

Joe