BS: UK immigration too high?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:24 PM

Well, I guess it doesn't really matter what their religion,language or ethnicity is----the point is,the UK is becoming increasingly crowded and over-populated.Of course,this is not immediately apparent if you drive across Dartmoor or Salisbury Plain,but it IS if you go to Slough,or Birmingham,or London (obviously !) etc,but unfortunately most immigrants are neither inclined nor encouraged,or even permitted, to settle "en masse" in rural areas,which in any case would lead to frighteningly complex, demographically insuperable logistic and social problems.
             Of course,it is impossible to try and draw any sort of attention to one's perception of the existence of any kind of demographic imbalance or upheaval ,with uncontrolled immigration as a causal factor,without being immediately branded a racist or a BNP supporter,particularly,I'm sorry to say,on the Mudcat,so at the end of the day it hardly seems worth the bother of commenting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:27 PM

It's that way in the US too, b-rat. You can see the hordes of people destroying the country side like locusts, but if you say anything you're labled a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 03:25 AM

It's not racist, Bubllyrat or Riginslinger, to talk about immigration. It's just a shame that in the UK, the people who shout the loudest are in fact racists and some of the most vocal are in fact Nazi's.

But, bubbly, you really should stop saying that this country has uncontrolled immigration becasue you know that is not true. To say something you know to be untrue is to lie, isn't it?

So the what we are trying to discuss is are we *now* and going forward, controlling migration properly (the points system designed only to admit people that we need) and then, once we have only the people we need, how do we provide resources for all necessary citizens of this country.

Unfortunately another truth here is that with an ageing population and a falling birth-rate, we need an awful lot of taxpayers and pension-fund investors from elsewhere. How do we get and provide for them, what on earth are we going to do if we can't get enough of them?

This dilemma exposes the ponzi scheme nature of all pension provision. Bubbly, you served in the military but your well-earned pension is entirely dependant on there being enough taxpayers around. It is not therefore a guaranteed thing.

Same applies to people in defined benefit company pensions - more retireees on the books need ever more workers paying in at the bottom.

Same for money purchase (equity) schemes.

Same for people deluded into thinking property is a pension - eventually everyone needs to cash in, and we know what that does to an asset's market value. Even worse if there aren't a lot of willing buyers.

Why can't we discuss these big issues?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:32 AM

Control is fine,and we already have that, so where is the problem?

If less immigration is indicated by, for example, a lack of employment, or a lackof sufficient accommodation, then a simple alteration in the numbers permitted, or a restiction on trades we do not have a need for, and it's sorted.

Once the race bogey is removed from the equation it becomes very simple.

Unfortunately, the majority of those who are complaining about immigrants are very much concerned as to the colour of those they wish to exclude, and most of those are also in favour of repatriation, voluntary or otherwise.

I wonder, if we repatriated all those of different ethnic backgrounds, and their countries of origin repatriated all who were of British ethnic origin back here, WHO would get the worst of THAT exchange?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 08:00 AM

But, many people think that even with the controls now in place immigration is still too high.
Just numbers, not race.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 08:12 AM

but what about the economists who calculate that we don't have enough people to support our economic and social growth and social needs?

Don, I know your intentions are good but you still miss the critical issue. The response to a lack of social resources for the population is not to have a cull, it is to build more resources.

This is not an unprecedented situation, we had a booming population in the post war period and we bloody well went out and built millions of new homes in suburbs and new towns. And we did it all at a time when the nation was pretty bankrupt.

All we lack now is the honesty and the will.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 08:45 AM

""but what about the economists who calculate that we don't have enough people to support our economic and social growth and social needs?

Don, I know your intentions are good but you still miss the critical issue. The response to a lack of social resources for the population is not to have a cull, it is to build more resources.""

I think you are mixing your posters Royston.

That wasn't me.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 09:19 AM

No, Don.

I'm not having a go at you or anyone but you did say the answer to a lack of accommodation would be to reduce numbers.

I say build more accommodation, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 09:19 AM

According to the cross party group of MPs Balanced Migration,
•The centrepiece of the Government's major reform of immigration is their Points
Based System for work permits. However, this does not limit numbers.

•We propose that there should be a limit – not on the number of people who come to
work here, but on those permitted to live here permanently.

They also say
The House of Lords Select Committee on Economic Affairs conducted a major
enquiry into the economic impact of immigration – the first of its kind in Britain. The
Committee included peers from all the main political parties, among them a former
Governor of the Bank of England, a former Director General of the Confederation of
British Industry and two former Chancellors of the Exchequer. The report was
unanimous.
The Select Committee's overall conclusion was that:
"We have found no evidence for the argument, made by the Government, business
and many others, that net immigration – immigration minus emigration –
generates significant economic benefits for the existing UK population."1
Their main recommendation was that:
"The Government should have an explicit and reasoned indicative target range for
net immigration and adjust its immigration policies in line with that broad
objective."2
1 House of Lords Select Committee on Economic Affairs, The Economic Impact of Immigration, 1 April 2008, Abstract, para. 1
2 Ibid, Abstract, final paragraph
http://www.balancedmigration.com/ourcase.php

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 01:24 PM

Keith,

Oh I see, so in your view of things it doesn't matter how many people we bring here to slave for us and support our expectations of a lovely long retirement; just so long as we need them and those people accrue no rights to remain and settle and reap the benefit of their labours for our society? And then we tell them to pack their bags.

Because that it what sounds like you're saying.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 01:49 PM

People are welcome to work, send home money, save and return.
That is a common arrangement.
Do you not think that England is already far too overcrowded to continue to encourage unlimited numbers to come and settle?
Balanced Migration do.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 02:03 PM

Not to get into the middle of a UK-catters' discussion, but because I've been following this with interest and I'm curious about the answer:

Isn't free migration one of the principles of the EU? If so, can the UK legally limit it while staying within the EU?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 02:05 PM

You keep talking about unlimited immigration, when this thing doesn't exist. And if you now accept that our social needs will demand more external labout then it doesn't matter whether that labout force is an increasing resident number or an increasing number of short term, rotating, workers. It still means that we need an ever increasing number of people on these islands at any give time.

Jeesh, you are such hard work!

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 02:07 PM

Exactly Art, it's like California placing a limit on incomers, whether they be from Middle East or from New Jersey.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 02:38 PM

Well not exactly, Royston. Newcomers from New Jersey are port of the same polity, while those from, say, Oman are not.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 02:53 PM

Of course you are right Art, I was being wilfully naive.

But the parallel is not entirely without foundation. We return elected members to the European Parliament and the laws passed there become statutes on the books of the member states when ratified. In relevant matters, ratification is a treaty obligation on member states. The only retention of sovereignty are on matters of defence, the fine detail of social policy, tax and expenditure - but decisions on the latter two are limited if you happen to be in the euro currency.

How I wish we had the Euro now; Brown and Darling's freedom to fuck us over with the banks are going to cripple this country for generations. Eurozone nations are going to get through this mess a lot quicker than us.

The freedom to migrate and settle across the EU is one of the rights all EU citizens have (except citizens of the 8 accession countries, but that is a time-limited restriction)and the European law granting those rights is enacted in all the member states so in some ways to, say, turn away the French from Great Britain would be quite a lot like the CA / NJ comparison I made.

I know, this is really off-topic - if anyone wants to take this further, please start a new thread.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Manc
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 03:02 PM

bloody foreiners eh..!!??

coming over here and shagging our birds..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/8288083.stm

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 03:57 PM

Let me try to put my point another way.

Given the demographic shift of an ageing population and the older members of the population living longer than ever before, there are few options if we want to maintain our aspirations of a "retirement life".

The obvious way is to accept that we have to make provision for a lot more workers to maintain us. That is to accept much greater immigration rates.

If we consider that large scale immigration and population growth is undesirable then it follows that we must give up pretty much all our expectations of "retirement". With fewer earners the only answer is to reduce the number of dependants. I presume that nobody here is proposing a cull of the elderly, so would those people concerned about immigration be totally willing to continue to work to support themselves - in effect - until they die or become wholly incapable?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:03 PM

""I'm not having a go at you or anyone but you did say the answer to a lack of accommodation would be to reduce numbers.

I say build more accommodation, that's all.""

You should know me better than that mate, based on my past posts.

I was suggesting that lacking sufficient housing might be handled by letting in a smaller number of NEW immigrants, UNTIL such time as your NEW housing became available.

I would NEVER countenance the removal of existing residents, under ANY circumstances.

They belong here.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 11:11 PM

Who belongs where?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:36 AM

• There is no evidence that net immigration generates significant economic
benefits for the existing UK population.
• The Government's own figure for the annual benefit of immigration is
62 pence per head per week.
• The overall benefit to the Government's revenues is likely to be small.
• Immigration is not the answer to the pensions problem.
http://www.balancedmigration.com/pdfs/ourcase_3.pdf

The Select Committee's overall conclusion was that:
"We have found no evidence for the argument, made by the Government, business
and many others, that net immigration – immigration minus emigration –
generates significant economic benefits for the existing UK population."1
Their main recommendation was that:
"The Government should have an explicit and reasoned indicative target range for
net immigration and adjust its immigration policies in line with that broad
objective."2

We do not support the
general claims that net immigration is indispensable to fill labour and skills
shortages. Such claims are analytically weak and provide insufficient reason for
promoting net immigration. Vacancies are, to a certain extent, a sign of a healthy
economy. Immigration increases the size of the economy and overall labour demand,
thus creating new vacancies. As a result, immigration is unlikely to be an effective tool
for reducing vacancies other than in the short term."4
"The argument that sustained net immigration is needed to fill vacancies, and that
immigrants do the jobs that locals cannot or will not do, is fundamentally flawed.
It ignores the potential alternatives to immigration for responding to labour shortages,
including the price adjustments of a competitive labour market and the associated
increase in local labour supply that can be expected to occur in the absence
of immigration."5
1 Ibid. para 3
2 Ibid. Abstract, para. 2
3 Ibid. para. 220
4 Ibid. Abstract, para. 4
5 Ibid. para. 228

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 07:03 AM

Artbrooks, good question about EU.
Free migration was a principal, but when it enlarged some countries did not extend that to the new members.
We did and there was an influx of about a million, mostly from Eastern European countries such as Poland.
With the recession, some have returned home.

Most UK immigration is from Africa and Indian subcontinent

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 08:09 AM

Rather have Eastern Europeans who speak with a clear voice and have a grasp of good English - ever been to Surrey Steet Market in Croydon - you need subtitles for the oik market traders!

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:07 PM

Where I live is a New Tiown, so virtually everybody here either came here from somewhere else or their parents did, and we've still got planty of more recent newcomers. I can't really see it makes much difference that some of my neighbours came from Poland or Ghana as well as London, Yorkshire and Ireland. Except that it makes for a more varied and interesting neighbourhood.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:14 PM

So the standing-room-only effect is the only thing to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 06:14 PM

I do not agree with the select committee report. I suspect there is an element of pandering in it. It plainly missed a very fundamental point about immigration providing needed labour - the time factor.

I also, however, disagree with Euro-centric views about control. IMHO the Brown=Darling response to the recession (apsrt from the absence of proper control about banks, which seems to be back on the agenda) was almost wholly right. The only bit of it I disagreed with was the scrappage scheme which should have been limited to vehicles under 15 years old, and/or should have provided for classic vehicle clubs to acquire classics threatened to be scrapped.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 03:27 AM

The Government claim that immigrants add £6 billion to our economy. What they do not say is that they also add to our population in almost exactly the same proportion as they add to production. Thus the benefit to the native population is very small - an outcome confirmed by major studies in the US, Canada and Holland and most recently by the House of Lords Select Committee on Economic Affairs. The Government's own calculation, submitted in evidence to that Committee, implies an annual benefit to the resident population of only 62p per head a week (see White Paper Cm 7414 para 2.5).

Surely London would collapse without immigrants?
This debate is not about existing immigrant communities. Nobody is remotely suggesting that they should leave. The issue is how many more people our island can sustain.

Do we need immigration to fill 600,000 vacancies?
No. The Government first made this claim in 2002. Since then the number of foreign born workers aged over 16 has increased by 1.1 million yet in October 2008 there were still 610,000 vacancies. The reason is that immigrants also create demand which in turn creates new jobs, so the argument from labour shortages leads to an endless cycle of immigration.
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/faq

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:31 AM

As with comedy, Keith - the secret is timing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:40 AM

I wonder what those who are against immigration to the UK think about all those British people who retire to take over vast tracts of Spain. Sauce for the goose?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:41 AM

I've just come home from Ingleton FF.

All the pubs & other venues were full of immigrants from all over the place including yours truly.

The language barrier was an issue as late at night after really intense & focussed imbibing, many were speaking [& singing] in tongues!

Luckily, music being the food of love we played on & on!

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:45 AM

oops pressed knob too soon - meant to say our musical endeavours would be considerably the poorer without influences from near & far.

No bagpipes [orig. from India] , guitars, banjos [Africa], fiddles, free reed insts [China] , do I need say more?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 10:15 PM

What did the Celts use?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 10:48 PM

"Zero population growth would certainly aggravate the pensions timebomb"

In a separate (though current) thread you stated that we need more birth control and abortions, now you are worried about stagnation of population growth(?) . . . if I'm ever involved in a court case, I want you to represent my adversary.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:49 AM

Don't we need migrants to help pay for our pensions?
This is false. Immigrants themselves grow older so the only effect, even of very large scale immigration, is to postpone by a few years the impact of an ageing population. The real answer is that, as people now live longer, they should work longer. The Turner Commission on pensions dismissed the argument that immigration would help with pensions saying that only high immigration can produce more than a trivial reduction in the projected dependency ratio over the next 50 years...and this would be only a temporary affect unless still higher levels of immigration continued in later years... This view was endorsed by the House of Lords Select Committee on Economic Affairs in their report published in April 2008.

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/faq

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 03:20 AM

"The real answer is that, as people now live longer, they should work longer."

Yes, but that smug statement completely ignores the reality. Have you ever tried getting ajob when you're over 50 - or over 60? Believe me, it isn't easy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 07:41 AM

............& ultimately, everyone who inhabits these islands has an ancestry which has originated elsewhere.

Take Guest Geordie for example, if he's frae Gateshead, Newcastle, etc then its likely his four bears were invading immigrants from somewhere northern Europe [or even beyond]

Perhaps we should all go back to our place of origin?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 07:52 AM

Maybe, but does that have a bearing on the level of immigration that is reasonable now?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 07:58 AM

Cor, its enough to make you go and live in South Africa, or maybe Australia. hear there's some great expat communities in Spain and the greek islands.Hong Kong sounds good as well, and of course the whole EU is my oyster.

   For almost every year in the late 20th century we had a net fall on emigration figures, i.e. more people left than arrived. What are the figures now.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:05 AM

As with McGrath's observation that immigrants make a community more varied and interesting.
That is my observation too, but there must be an upper limit that can reasonably be accomodated in a small and very densely populated island.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:11 AM

Tug, until 1982 there was a net outflow of migrants from Britain.
Between 1982 and 1997 average net immigration was about 50,000 a year. It has
climbed rapidly since 1997 to reach a peak of 244,000 in 2004. This has now fallen to
about 190,000 a year
http://www.balancedmigration.com/pdfs/ourcase_1.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:18 AM

What's the magic number for vacancies/ spare places here?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:30 AM

Mr.H, since 2002 the number of foreign born workers aged over 16 has increased by 1.1 million yet in October 2008 there were still 610,000 vacancies. The reason is that immigrants also create demand which in turn creates new jobs, so the argument from labour shortages leads to an endless cycle of immigration.


Don't we need foreigners to do to the jobs that British people are unwilling to do?
No. The underlying issue is pay rates for the unskilled (Briefing Paper 1.22). At present, the difference between unskilled pay and benefits is so narrow that, for some, it is hardly worth working. That partly explains why we have 2 million unemployed and a further 2.6 million on incapacity benefit, of whom the Government wishes to move 1 million from welfare to work. These figures include just over one million young people who are not in education, employment or training.
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/faq

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:29 AM

Thganks Keith A. for providing up to date figures. I am sure I have read figures about the type of jobs (other than unskilled) which require a strteam of qualified incomers.
I am also aware that many incomers find work ( or are only able to find work) beneath the level of their qualifications.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:56 AM

I think that you are right on both counts, but most of our immigrants are Third World, and unskilled or low skilled.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:03 AM

From link above


'Are economic migrants taking British jobs?


There is some anecdotal evidence of foreign workers being preferred. However, the UK labour market is large and complex with nearly 30 million in the work force and, of course,

the total number of jobs is not fixed.

The statistics are not unambiguous

but there are some worrying signs '.............??


**************

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:20 AM

Mr Happy, were you expecting a statement that they are taking British jobs?
They only claim as fact that for which they have hard evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:23 AM

"Maybe, but does that have a bearing on the level of immigration that is reasonable now?"

No, but neither did your statement. If, however, in the future, older people cannot find work and, therefore, unemployment levels increase, the anti-immigration lobby will probably blame immigration instead of looking for the real cause - rampant ageism amongst employers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:25 AM

Not necessarily, but I am wondering what issues/ 'legitimate concerns' are so worrying to some people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:32 AM

""This debate is not about existing immigrant communities. Nobody is remotely suggesting that they should leave. The issue is how many more people our island can sustain.""

With respect Keith, that is exactly what many people ARE suggesting, and they are finding their voice through that organisation we are discouraged from naming in this thread.

There are TWO points worth taking into account.

1. If you are, as you say, only concerned with future immigration, then the controls are already in place, and simply need tuning to the necessary level.

2. If you see those controls as being insufficient or non-existent, perhaps there might be a need to re-examine your point of view?

I will also point out that members of the aforementioned organisation are loudly applauding your efforts here, and consider you as somewhat of a hero, on their Facebook discussion board.

If that were me they were cheering, I'd be looking to find where I had gone wrong.

Of course you could always go the whole hog, and join..........

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:36 AM

As the bard Shakespeare [wonder wot his ethnic origin wos - apart from being a Brummie from SoT!]

said, 'A rose by any other name would smell.....'