Are folk clubs serving a purpose

Subject: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: breezy
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 03:54 PM

There's a thread on the bbc folk on 2 asking this question but as I couldnt be bothered to work out how to log in I thought I'ld get it on over here.
You tell me what you think as I'm not impressed with harding's prog from Belfast, I'm hacked off with Matt Dillons girl and Ralf Reader's too
Football would be more lively as will Cyril Tawney on Fri 4th In St.Albns
So do folk clubs have a role to play?

Subject: RE: BS: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: Kernow John
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 05:16 PM

John
I have no hesitation in answering yes.
Since our local club had to shut down (we are just to far off the beaten track) I have seen very little of the likes of Cyril Tawney, Tom Mconville, Archie Fisher, Hughie Jones, Sandra Kerr etc..
Where would these guys perform (outside of festivals)were it not for the folk clubs.
Don't get me wrong I enjoy the sessions but your not going to get the above travelling 300 miles to the Lizard for a couple of songs and a few free pints on a Monday night.
BTW did you know radio Cornwall have shut down the Folk Programme? So we don't even get to hear these guys on the radio now.
I didn't hear Mike Harding tonight I can't be bothered to switch it on these days it seemed to be more Country & Roots than Folk.
If you see Keith at St Albans say hello for me.
John

Subject: RE: BS: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 05:49 PM

Why are there so few Clubs in Cornwall?You've got enough good singers,writers and musicians down there.Noel Murphy is lurking on the Lizard,John the Fish is still alive and Kicking,or so I believe,then you've got all your locals,like Jon Hislop and company,as wellas the Padstow people.Was that John the Fishes Radio prog got Bunged?

Subject: RE: BS: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: Mudlark
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 06:16 PM

Living in a large county, with lots of rural space in between towns, I'm thankful for SLOFolks, San Luis Obispo CA's folk club. Cleverly, they have arranged 3 night venues for each act they book, and in this way the musician(s) come away with far more $ for their travel. It helps that the county is halfway between LA and SF, so we've had great performers like Pat Donahue and Michael Smith on tap. This weekend it's Druha Trava, a BlueGrassPLUS band from Czech Rebublic, and Ed Gerhard is coming in October. Both have appeared here many times. To be able to see in person such stellar performers within 20 mi. of Rancho de Nada, my home which is seemingly miles from anywhere, is an incredible treat.

Subject: RE: BS: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 06:39 PM

breezy - I don't get the references in your post. You're being a bit too cryptic in whatever it is you are saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 06:40 PM

And without the Folk Clubs where would I go to Ego Trip? Or watch my friends ego trip!Or learn about new songs and tunes? Or meet Tom McConville again(Maidenhead F C on Thursday the 26th September-see you there).Of course Folk Clubs are serving a useful purpose.They keep me off the streets some of the time,any way.

Subject: RE: BS: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: mack/misophist
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:38 PM

Not just folk clubs, but all clubs serve a purposr or they would disband. Who cares if it's the stated purpose as long as it works.

Subject: RE: BS: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 02:39 AM

Clubs work all right. Even if it doesn't call itself a club, or doesn't believe in clubs. When a bunch of people like something in common and they gather regularly to enjoy it and help others enjoy it, then it's a club and it keeps working as long as there are two people or more who like what they're doing. Yes, clubs work. Mine does. Got a nail in it.......

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: breezy
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 04:20 AM

M'grth, go to folk on 2 website , others seem to understand.
K J can you org one? and link in with St Ives and Bodders or hold a monthly one? It can be a rewarding experience.Shame the Well has run dry cos the landlord upset the singers!
WE meet on the [waters] Edge in Padstow now , when in season.
Murphy could do more than swing his club and sit on his reputation, tell him , not ask, to get his butt in gear, the big diva.
Cyril next Friday at mine insnorbens, why not organise a coach? Yes I'm joking but you could even pick up Cyril on the way.
All the best.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: Lanfranc
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 04:26 AM

Tawney in snorbens! Reinforce the floor, I'm coming, too!

In answer to your question: "Yes!"

Alan

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: mooman
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 04:31 AM

A definite yes to this one!

A place to play, a place for continuing the tradition, a place for meeting friends, a place for a good laugh and in many cases a good pint, a focal point for the community, a place for introducing new people to good music, a place for new performers to build their skills and seasoned ones to make a little money......

Peace

mooman

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: GUEST,Bullfrog Jones (on the road)
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 04:39 AM

Hi John --- you sound worryingly disillusioned! Please don't give up (especially not before February when I understand you have that hot harmony duo Dark Horse appearing in Snorbens!)Haven't listened to last night's MH show yet, I listen later online as we have Roots@Zaks on a Wednesday night. We're finding it frustrating trying to build an audience, and this week is a case in point -- next Wednesday we'll have a sold-out audience for Show Of Hands, and I can guarantee that most of them won't have been through the doors of the place before (we're a club in name only, for priority booking and mailing lists) yet some weeks we struggle to get into double figures. We're still quite new, and Show Of Hands will pay for some of the loss-makers, but the loyalty factor seems to be taking a long time to kick in. If you're in the MK, South Northants, Beds or Bucks area and want to find out what you're missing click here.
BJ

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: breezy
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 06:02 AM

Well Bullfrog, that will make matt A smile, btw can you pop down snorbs way for abit of self promotion either on a Friday or a Sat when we are in the Blue Anchor like we are tomorrow night with a regular audience.
Tell zaks it takes 5 years min to build up some kind of following and they expected me to book artistes and make a loss, I hope you get paid there.
Hello Alan, maybe we will convene downstairs, good to know your going to be around. Johnny Collins, Roy Bailey, Jeremy Taylor booked for this term

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 07:51 AM

Yes they do have a role and they play it with all the variability and individuality of the people who are prepared to put the effort in to run them.
I have never run a club but have served on the Wellington FC (Inc) committee in NZ and a few Festival committees. It is not a thankless task but can appear so.
I prefer sessions and SAR but there are plenty of people who do not perform and FC's entertain them by and (notso these days) large.
cresby.com gives you an idea of the breadth of opportunity in my area for participating &/or being entertained.
Try folk clubs in other countries - I can speak for Canada and NZ and outside of the cities alternatives can be 50 miles away if your local bash is populated with people you can't empathise with. Here in the UK that distance is far more likely to be 10 miles or less. If it is that popular it must be serving some purpose.
AND admittedly the emphasis does appear to have shifted to festivals where it is encouraging see young people - and talented curse them!

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: GUEST,Bullfrog Jones (on the road)
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 08:21 AM

John, please define that word 'paid' -- I don't seem to have heard it in the folk club context!

BJ

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: selby
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 01:34 PM

Folk Clubs have a definite role to play.1 to support the profesional artist.2 As a place where anybody can be given a fair hearing without chatter and noise as happens at sessions/singarounds 3 In my opinion the most important where young artist's can learn their stage craft.Unfortunately sessions are killing folk clubs and most of the youngsters seem to prefer sessions.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 01:51 PM

breezy - if you can't be bothered to login to the folk on the folk on 2 website, why should I? More to the point, why should Mudcatters in Texas, Australia, New Zealand...

But the question of the value or lack of value of folk clubs is one which is not confined to people in one part of the world.

Folk clubs have been enormously important for the survival, revival and reinvigoration of a living musical tradition. The most important thing they have done is break down the division between performers and punters, and to make it possible for all kinds of links to be built up and maintained.

It may be that folk clubs as we have known them won't survive. Something will replace them which will enable those kind of connections to continue to be made. The experience of Mudcatters in different parts where the functional equivalent of folk clubs have taken on a different form could be very helpful.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: breezy
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 03:24 PM

Mgrth, its not tha t I couldnt be bothered its that I failed to logon so as you are of obvious superior intelligence I was inviting you to join in on that thread as you found this one too cryptic. BTW which club do you attend on a weekly basis?
Are sessions killing F. Clubs?
They are usually too noisy for beginners as its cheap pub background music.
Only an organised F.club can give a 'Stage' for people to perform on
Thank you all for your inputs, any more?
My Club restarts next Fri 4th Oct if you haven't already noticed in St.Albans , Herts Eng with C.Tawney at the Comfort Hotel, formerly Samuel Ryder's house yawn now

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 04:37 PM

One reason sessions spring up is because very few pubs these days still have function rooms, and those which do tend to charge a lot more than they used to.

Another reason is that it's a different way of making music, and makes for a different type of music.

I doubt if a session anywhere has ever killed a folk club. Sometimes where a folk club has died, a session succeeds it, as a way of keeping the music alive as much as anything. That happened to us in Harlow when for various reasons, mostly financial, it became impossible to keep a folk club going.

One of the best clubs I know, the Clap and Smile in Stortford, works as a tunes-and-songs session in the bar fortnightly, and once a month or so it runs as a club in the function room with paid guests and a couple of floor spots, and that strikes me as a pretty good way of combining the two styles.

I see there've been posts in this thread from New Zealand and the USA. I somehow doubt if that'd happen on the folk on 2 website. I haven't been there in some time - it seems a bit clunky compared to here and it's got restrictive rules such as forbidding people from including a link in their posts and stuff like that. And no realm life to it that I could see. Maybe it's got better.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: GUEST,A. Sufferer
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 05:47 PM

Selby, The reason young folks like singarounds and open mike sessions is they don't have to sit around politely listening to tuneless dirges. I'm sorry but in many cases this is a fact. I am all for getting young people to play (acoustic)music but it seems the "f" word scares them away. More (folk) clubs should think about changing their anachronistic, hackneyed, habits and ACTIVELY encourage young musicians. If they wish to survive that is.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: breezy
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 07:31 PM

youve put your finger gst sffrr on th 'f' word, so how do we package it then, any ideas out there?

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 07:51 PM

I've my doubts if the word makes too much difference either way. I think what matters more is what actually happens. Just changing the label doesn't fool anybody.

In a thread a little way back I remember someone saying something that summed things up well. When the folk clubs started, in England anyway, they consisted generally of a bunch of enthusiastic young people, and a few older people who were welcomed as representing the past. Now it's a bunch of older people, still pretty enthusiastic for the most part, with a few younger people who are welcomed as (hopefully) representing the future.

What I suspect will happen is that there's going to be a dying off of the clubs over the next few years. Sometime in the future, it'll all start again, with those relatively few young folkies, by then not so young, being the older people, who'll be welcomed in the clubs run by another young generation of enthusiasts.

And the sessions of one sort will carry on in parallel, at some level or another.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: Kernow John
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 01:22 AM

Breezy
The St. Ives club was one I started with John Ryan but it's moved now to St. Erth and due to low attendance has become a singers nights only venue. We booked people along with Bodmin and F on the Moor but we couldn't get the numbers.
Noel lives just around the corner, thinks the sessions have killed the folk clubs and won't come out to play!

Leadfingers, yes it was JtF, sadly.
John

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: Lanfranc
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 04:48 AM

Sessions can be frustrating in several ways. The main beef that I have is that a high percentage of participants play the same tunes and sing the same songs as they played and sang the last time. Another is that although musicians often play a medley of tunes, and may repeat the same tune ad infinitum in the course of the medley, singers are invariably limited to one song.

One can obtain one's revenge as a singer by including "Sir Patrick Spens", "Desolation Row" or "Love Chronicles", but that seems a tad unkind to any general audience present.

Far too many session participants (and performers in Folk Clubs, for that matter) are incapable of entertaining the audience, which does not always mean "being funny". They seem determined that they will perform their party piece(s) though the heavens fall (and the audience exits to another bar), whether or not they are communicating with the audience, or anyone else for that matter.

A session with considerable background noise can be silenced by any good tune or song, well performed. My favourite instrument for shutting up the noisy is my bowed psaltery, which is both quiet and ethereal, and gets quiet from any audience 95% of the time.

With the preponderance of sessions, in my neighbourhood at least, it is a pleasant change to do even a three-song floor spot in a well-run Folk Club. To do a proper gig, even if it is not well paid or even paid at all, is even more of a pleasure. The pleasure multiplies when the audience derive enjoyment from your performance.

The purpose of a Folk Club, to my mind, is to provide an intimate atmosphere where the barriers between audience and artist are minimised, to their mutual benefit.

The trouble is, there are too few around these days!

Keep up the good work, Breezy, storbans is one of the better Clubs. I have taken people there who had never before set foot in a Folk Club - they enjoyed it hugely, and have become regulars.

See you next week - must get some work done!

Alan

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: breezy
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 04:49 AM

I ran a session before running the club.We all contributed £1 a night.[Most attenders at a session would baulk at having to pay, they think they should be recipients of some form of monetary gain] Then we had finance built up to put the club in place. A session still occurs as one of the attendees runs it.The club had a successful 1st year, because of the quality of floor singer and guest, Jo Public wants a good show for his £s or he votes with his feet. Its not just for the performers's benefit, its for the perpetuating of the culture.
Perhaps we should ask if sessions take more than they give? Are they eroding the Folk culture by diluting the quality by doing so in public.It would be better if sessions moved out of pubs unless the Landlord chips in.Go play in a park in summer and open a case and judge for yourself how you are received by the public.
Are folk artistes demanding too high fees thus pricing themselves out of work and screwing the clubs for all they're worth? look at their gig lists and see how busy they are.
Good Morning all

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: GUEST,A sufferer
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 05:19 AM

Judging by certain responses to this thread it seems (f)clubs WILL indeed die a death through lack of foresight or willpower on behalf of the "management". Go on then, keep booking the same old act's you have been booking since you were a lad, they can't harm you. After all it is a closed (mind) society you engender. See how many younger players are queueing up to buy tickets to see them (most of them use promotional pictures from the 80s) Fact is - you oldies are scared by change. R.I.P trad folk. Good morning. A.S

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: Lanfranc
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 07:29 AM

Thou talkest crap, oh sufferer - at least as far as around here (Essex, Herts, Cambridge, Suffolk, N London)goes.

Look out especially for local lad Clive Carroll, a highly talented guitarist and five-string banjo player. He's touring with John Renbourn, which gives the best of both eras!

There is some amazing young talent, primarily instrumentalists, but a few singers, too. They do not disdain to sit in with us boring old farts, and frequently teach us a thing or two. It's a two-way street, I well remember the generosity of such as Alex Campbell and Diz Disley when I was starting out, and try to emulate their example, even if it's only in a small way.

There are younger members of the audience, even for those you dismiss as "same old acts", and there are many "oldies" and club organisers who actively encourage younger artists.

RIP Trad Folk indeed! There are probably as many young people playing traditional music as there ever have been, and they deserve a platform. That is, or should be, the function of Folk Clubs.

Open YOUR mind, sufferer, and say "aah".

Good morning to you,too.

Alan

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: GUEST,A. Sufferer
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 07:44 AM

Tch Tch don't throw all your toy's out of your pram Lanfranc. As usual it's you mollycoddled southerners leading the way. Good afternoon A.S

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: My guru always said
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 09:18 AM

Thanks Breezy for keeping going when all around you falter. I need Folk Clubs & I need sessions too. I thoroughly enjoy listening & music making in whatever environment & my life has expanded because of it. Thanks for pushing me.

Personally I like sessions coz I can sit in a pub with friends & friends I've only just met & share the music. I like 'F' clubs just as much (despite paying entrance) coz I can listen & learn & occasionally sing.

The 'F' word does scare / put off the 'younger' generation. I've been helping with a 'F' music workshop at a newish University for the past 6 years and we don't attract many students at all.

OK so maybe we're a bit blinkered by using the 'F' word, but we do what we enjoy. If someone brings another style into the workshop we'll work with that, hey it's all music - isn't it?

Good afternoon all :-)

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 09:55 AM

"Perhaps we should ask if sessions take more than they give? Are they eroding the Folk culture by diluting the quality by doing so in public.
Breezy - that a hell of a good question.
It touches on an uncomfortable truth doesn't it? There are a lot of very crap people playing & singing in pubs & then wondering why the other customers aren't appreciative. Sometimes we (collectively) are our own worst enemy. Hmmm

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 02:43 PM

From what I've seen I'd say the standard of playing you get in a lot of sessions compares very favourably indeed with the club standard of a few years back. Sure there's some ropy playing, but most of the time people either get better - often very rapidly - or they drop away.

The two types of venue can work together splendidly, complementing each other. Like a fork and a knife.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 04:25 PM

There is a hard core of fine young musicians around but they are playing to their parent's generation. The clubs will continue to decline unless they can build up a young audience. (That means double figures under 20, 50% under 30)

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 04:32 PM

what folk clubs? Oh, you must be in the UK where they have such like. folk is suffering a lingering death here in the states. a gasp here and there, but no transmission of tradition on any scale, just entertainment, and co-option by 'singer-songwriters' of various talents and persuasions, and few and far between places to here any folk that hasn't been 'O Brother'ed up to death. Or is it better than that, is that a rainbow before me?

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 04:38 PM

or fusioned to death, I forgot that

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 12:46 AM

"Are folk clubs serving a purpose?" I mean no direspect,breezy, but I find that to be a very odd question. Here we are in a site filled to overflowing withpeople brought together by a love for one of the few musical forms left (the number is rapidly decreasing) which as good as or, more often than not, better when experienced live than in its recorded form. Clubs close and open all the time. I don't know how it was in the UK, but in the USA, during the late 1980's and early 90's, there seemed to be virtually no clubs at all. It was a long dry spell. These things happen. Now, there are plenty of clubs, not to mention festivals and house concerts. We are, collectively, thriving. If your local club is gone get together with some other folkies and see if you can put together some house concerts to fill the void. This is a very pro-active sort of music that we make.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: selby
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 08:53 AM

Folk clubs need to survive and must change to survive, I speak from experience of fighting to keep a club open that eventualy closed. The last few regulars had very closed minds and would only wanted old trusted favourites as guests. The format was mc 2 songs, floor singers, guest, a break with raffle tickets,mc 2 songs, floor singers, guest, goodnight. I know many young talented muscians and singers are at the moment performing on the UK festival circuit,but in my opinion the one thing they lack is stage prescence, this will I am sure come in time, but the craft was originally learn't by the long slog of folk clubs,very much like an apprentiship. I believe folk clubs are nessacary, need to change, and require regular support from young and old alike. Keith

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 09:22 AM

One reason why a lot of young instrumentalists prefer sessions to clubs is that at a session they can play all night,but at a club they now usually only get a two song spot,then have to listen to boring old farts like me,and they have to pay for the priviledge.At least one club I attend on a regular basis has a pretty fair fiddler who usually leads a tune session in the interval,and also encourages musicans in the audience to join in when he does a floor spot.Not a bad scheme,i feel.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 09:23 AM

Folk clubs are rather unusual institutions. If you went to a football club 40 years ago in 1962, you'ld find its purpose was football. Go bck now, and you'ld find, broadly speaking, that is still the case. Ditto a Pigeon Fanciers Club,or a Billiards and Snooker Club.
But if you went to a folk club in 1962 you would find a place devoted largely to the performance and perpetuation of a certain kind of music, mostly created and nurtured over the previous 300 years by the working classes in some kind of quasi-collective fashion. Go to your average folkclub now in 2002 and you will find the central core of the material peformed was written by educated guitarists in the last forty years. That is a huge change. Whether thischange has anything to do with the decline in audiences, and the increase by 40 of the average age, is a matter for speculation.
The fact is, folk clubs have evolved so that they now bear no recognisable resemblance to what they were. Presumaably they will eventually die, and be replaced with something new and interesting, perhaps to do with the perpetuation and performancee of folk music.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 03:49 AM

Most of the younger singers head straight for the festivals, where they get paid more and are able to sing their own songs in half hour spots. If they play at folk clubs they can't cut it for a full concert and are too expensive anyway.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: breezy
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 11:26 AM

O.K we are aiming at the songs that really matter, that recount what was, is and should be. Self in-dull-gencers have to tread a cautious path unto our door.
We have some really good ' educated guitarists' of the 40 plus who have some great songs that fall into the aforementioned category.
We respect and preserve the tradition while making the whole package friendly , entertaining and up-dated.
We are un-cliquie as we welcome everyone,
So now lets see how the new season from now to the end of November goes.
If you visit us let us know what you think
breezy
No more hits please, thread fades, thanks for all responses

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: GUEST,Walkingh Eagle
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 09:36 PM

A. Sufferer brings up a point for discussion. Should the established clubs continue to bring in the money making acts to keep them going, or should they help bring along younger players that are not quite the draw that they will be.I think that the established clubs have a responsibility to help bring along younger players and give them a voice.

Two questions I have are; 1. Forget about the performers, what is being sung? 2. Forget about the age of the performers, what about the age of the audience?

I for one would like to see a bit better of a balance of songs. Lately, we've had a lot of work in what I call the Key of I. Meaning that mostly the old ballads, protest, social commentary, and children's songs are not being covered.

Many times I'll go to a club and find that mom and dad have come, but have left the youngsters at home with a sitter. This turn of events disturbs me. Children need exposure to music via other venues these days as they certainly not getting it through good radio or public schools.

W.E.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: Kernow John
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 07:03 AM

Sorry Breezy to add one more.
I think the same applies to sessions as to clubs. If the entertainment is bad the punters walk. br> John

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 08:00 AM

Would it be true that a tune session is easier to quality-control than a singaround format?
Presumably in a tune session its a group effort & a tune can be rescued by more experienced/talented people.
Whereas song sessions are prone to the drone - you sometimes get a succession of frankly bad singers and its very hard to do anything about it.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 09:44 AM

Naahh, the thread's not dead yet, breezy. Too many questions left unanswered, not least the one about how to bring success, bums on seats, youth etc to a club; and how to quality-control its content. You have shown the way on some of those (build up the funds, class acts, content control, relentless pressure on crisp-munching mobile-phone-forgetting-turned-on punters). But there's more to do. Now, how would you bring your Blue Anchor atmosphere to the Comfort Hotel, for example (the first is a kind of "show" for regulars, with warm rapport, the second a classic rows-of-seats, stage front "proper" sort of club for the class acts)?

In short, fClubs need management; enthusiasm alone doesn't cut it at best, and can be boring when misguided. 9 in 10 fClub organisers are simply monitoring the patient's dying moments. You give the kiss of life (I am being strictly metaphorical so don't you dare!). Can others learn from that?

Or would they even want to, if it injures their egos to do so?

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 10:15 AM

Now we've got the New Model Mudcat, long threads aren't a problem. At 50 or so posts, a Part 2 automatically kicks in, and so forth. If we're going to have a discussion about folk clubs, a continuation of this one seems as sensible a way of doing it as any, and I don't think we've exhausted it by a long way.

One thing I'd be interested in knowing is the extent to which, when we talk about "folk clubs", we are talking about the same thing, and that is especially true for different countries. Maybe we could use a taxonomy of "folk clubs".

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: Fingerbuster
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 10:32 AM

There is a Music club in Hawick once per month, Anything goes - the regulars sing their "folk" songs there are some that sing and play contemporary folk, there are many young folk that even bring their
rock band in. The important thing is that no-one is excluded and everyone is given a fair shot. BUT most important, is that whatever act went down best get to do the first half of the session the next month AND get the door money for doing it. It doesn't take a high I.Q
to work out that this is not only a showcase for the featured act but
brings in their pals who in turn spread the word etc etc.
Nic.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 11:21 AM

Aha! McG/H you touched a pivotal point there, I'm sure that much of the grief felt by fCs is caused by misunderstandings around the term "folk" or indeed what music is "acceptable" in fCs.

My favoured interpretation of folk music is "of the people, by the people, for the people". Or as Woody G said "I never heard no horse sing". But the term "folk" has unfortunately acquired dire connotations. So change it. Why not "music club"? Or if you really don't want the amps, "acoustic music & song club"?

If you really want your club to be focused on a specialist stream/thread (trad, shanties, jazz, blues), then name it accordingly and be prepared to welcome limited audience numbers.

But that is not my preference: Folk music has always thrived from the fusion of experiences and styles it encounters; American folk would be very different if it wasn't for the Irish, Scottish etc influences. Conversely, in music as well as in nature, specialisation and exclusiveness is the short path to extinction. Put it all into the pot, I say, and let the flavours help each other.

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: treewind
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 11:51 AM

No, "acoustic music" has a very specific meaning these days. Ironically it's almost invariably features a big PA system at the venue, and in any case it means singer-songwriter stuff. I recently saw a web site for the Colchester "Acoustic City" and it makes a point of saying it is not a folk club. Go to an "acoustic music club" and sing an unaccompanied ballad or play a meleodeon or concertina and they'll look at you like you had just jumped off a passing flying saucer.

The Court Sessions in Tooting, South London does not call itself a folk club, but a traditional music and song club, for similar reasons - too many wrong associations i.e. they are following your suggestion.

I'm all for a mixture, but the problem is when a different type of music from what you intended sweeps in and drowns out everything else, or when a type of traditional music is in danger of dying out unless some effort is made to preserve it.

"American folk would be very different if it wasn't for the Irish, Scottish etc influences"
American Folk is Irish, Scottish etc. There was no original American folk tradition before the Europeans invaded (ok there are the Native Americans and where does their culture fit in with all this - another question entirely). And the Irish have also preserved their own traditions in their own communities in America.

It's a very different situation from England, for example, which had an indigenous and varied folk tradition for centuries complete with mixing in from the rest of the UK, Ireland and Europe, but which nearly became extinct until various revivals occurred in the twentieth century.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: GUEST,Baillie
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 12:21 PM

...Of course they do, where else would all the geeks, nutters, bad musicians and people who haven't a clue how to sing in tune and people with beards go for a night out? OK, I know they're not all bad I've seen my fair share!

Subject: RE: Are folk clubs serving a purpose
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 04:59 AM

Baillie - that is horribly true.............