BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 06:56 AM

So what should the Gazans do? Roll over? Turn the other cheek?

Nothing is being done to the Gazans except strikes against their rocket sites.
There is no need for them to fight.
Hamas needs no reason but that Israel exists and is full of Jews.

All the issues elsewhere are irrelevant to Hamas.
You kid yourself that Hamas hits Israel because of them.
If Israel withdrew from West Bank, tore down the wall, etc., Hamas would still be attacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 07:48 AM

Hard to discuss stuff with someone who doesn't appear to be in the real word, Keith. You're the middle-east thread equivalent of pete on the science vs creationist threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 07:59 AM

Easier to insult than to find flaws in what I say, right?

Here is Israel's side of the story on those detentions.

http://www.idf.il/1283-15916-en/Dover.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 08:11 AM

Keith, I've asked you the same question four times. You'll say anything other than address it, and your responses are getting more and more unworldly. What am I supposed to think?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 08:16 AM

By the way, that is the Israeli army's take, not "Israel's". Would you like it if our army were able to imprison arbitrarily without charge or trial for months (or years - admit it!) and make public pronouncements about it? I don't think so!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 08:30 AM

Keith,

Remember that DonT has stated that ISRAEL control the Egyptian government, since they and the Palestinians cannot alter the wall between them- Except they did, and the EGYPTIONS sealed it back up. Either that or DonT thinks that the Palestinians are too stupid to repeat breaking down the wall, and open new gates to Egypt.

In any case, let us discuss the complaint the Israel's response to the random attacks on its civilian population are "disproportionate"

Let me suggest that Israel stop the blockade of the coast and Egyptian border of Gaza ( and seal off the Israeli border entirely. After that, if the Gazans send over a rocket, Israel shoud respond exactly proportionately: They should send an equal amount of explosive, randomly aimed, back at Gaza. THAT would be proportionate, both the present targeting of the launch positions that they are doing. Israel would have to use anti-personnel bombs, like the Gazan rockets- filled with steel pellets to ensure maximum casualies. I suspect the number of civiliian Gazans killed would increase by several orders of magnitude, but that seems to be what DonT has suggested, in requiring ONLY a "Proportionate" response. Of course, when a large missile is launched at Israel, I suspect the Israeli response under "Proportional" response will kill thousands, if not tens of thousands.

And when Hamas gets a nuclear weapon from Iran, I suspect that being "Proportional" will not make many here very happy.

In addition, let us have Israel treat those they suspect of being agents for Hamas the way Hamas treats "Israeli spies" i.e., summary execution. (like they treated their political opponents, filling tires with gasoline and placing them around them, lighting them, and burning those who disagreed with them to death. Made it a lot easier to make sure everyone agreed with them.

I agree that Israel should not shoot anyone coming near their border- but then, ANY attempt to CROSS it should be met with targeted fire, and NOT warning shots. THAT would be proportional, as well.

When hundreds of Palestinians try to cross, and ONE is killed after warning shots, it does not look to me like there is reason to criticize Israel,




Oh, I forgot- Hamas shoots at Israeli soldiers and civilian buses INSIDE Israel from Gaza. So Israel gets to be "Proportional"

What was it that DonT was complaining about?????

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 09:06 AM

"
So, either he was targetted and shot by an Israeli who could clearly see him and knew exactly what he was killing, or he was killed by indiscrimate blind fire, used in complete disregard of civilian lives.
"


DonT,

You ignore the 5-10% of the antipersonnel rockets that Hamas fires that land in GAZA. With those, a far greater number of civilians will be killed than by the targeted ( at the launch sites) Israeli HE shells ( unless the Palestinians place launch sites in the middle of civilian areas (Can you say "Human Shields"?) ). That is HUNDREDS of rockets, given the number that they fired at Israel.

So, Either the children were :

targeted by Israel,
killed by indiscrimate blind fire, used in complete disregard of civilian lives BY BOTH SIDES.
used as human shields by HAMAS, (a war crime)
or killed by HAMAS antipersonnel rockets. (another war crime)

- RIGHT?:

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:20 AM

Steve,I have answered your question, except that I am not going to embark on the huge issue of West Bank settlements until we have finished with Gaza, as I said.

And, do you really think that piece on an IDF site did not accurately describe their goverment's position?
Pointless point Steve.

Now will you tell me why you believe Hamas will break its covenant and stop trying to kill Jews given more concessions, when all previous concession have resulted in an increase in attacks?

A definition of lunacy is repeating the same actions but expecting different outcomes.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:24 AM

The Gazans are treated badly by Israel
I challenge that.
What you call bad treatment are minimal restrictions compared to any other conflict, which are only there because of the conflict, which is a conflicy only Hamas wants.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:29 AM

Actually, there are other possibilities:



So, Either the children were :

Syrian children shot by their government whose pictures are being used by Hamas

targeted and shot by an Israeli who could clearly see him and knew exactly what he was killing,

targeted and shot by an Palestinian who could clearly see him and knew exactly what he was killing,

killed by indiscrimate blind fire, used in complete disregard of civilian lives by Israel

killed by indiscrimate blind fire, used in complete disregard of civilian lives by Hamas
.
killed by Israeli targeted fire at Hamas positions, while being used as human shields by HAMAS, (a war crime)

or killed by HAMAS antipersonnel rockets. (another war crime)



OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:35 AM

We now appear to have two people posting together who are both out with the fairies. Does Bearded Bruce embarrass you, Keith? He does seem to think he's on your side...

Do you think that Israel's building of more settlements on stolen land at an ever-increasing pace is Israel "dealing with it properly", Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:06 AM

Again Steve, I do not believe it has any relevance, for all the reasons I keep giving you.

Now will you tell me why you believe Hamas will break its covenant and stop trying to kill Jews given more concessions, when all previous concession have resulted in an increase in attacks?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:20 AM

"And when Hamas gets a nuclear weapon from Iran"

Iran has to get one first.

Apart from Netanyahu's ravings in the UN with his ridiculous bomb cartoon, this is not a genuine concern.

I agree with Miko Peled that the Iran question is a distraction from the continuing dispossession and displacement of native Arabs from their land.

As he says, what other western ally would get away with evicting a town of 50,000 people to build a King David Archeology theme park?

As long as the current ruling class in Israel continue to keep people afraid of impending armageddon, (something BB predicted a couple of years ago but didn't happen), attention will be easier to deflect from abuses like that described above.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:31 AM

Wrong, Lox.

Iran is close enough now to scare the shit out of anyone who is at all cognizent of the effects of a nuclear weapon.





Steve,

Since you are attacking me rather than commenting on the points I have presented, you are conceding that you do not have a valid argument and are in the wrong. Wouldn't you rather discuss the facts posted than attack those posting??

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:40 AM

Bruce, If that is the case then Israel is at least 200 times as scary.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:42 AM

"VIENNA (AP) -- The head of the U.N. nuclear agency says he cannot provide a "credible assurance" for Tehran's claims that all of its atomic activities are peaceful.

Speaking Thursday at a board meeting of the 35-country International Atomic Energy Agency, Yukiya Amano also expressed concern over Iran's "activities" at Parchin, southeast of Tehran.

His experts want to visit the site amid suspicions that it was used for secret tests related to nuclear weapons developments. His language is diplomatic shorthand for an alleged cleanup at the site."




Iran is presently building a heavy water reactor to produce plutonium. **I** could chemically separate plutonium, and if I had 10 - 12 KG I could make a 20KT+ nuclear device ( as could ANY Physics or Nuc. Eng Bachlor of Science). Do you really think that the Iranians are incapable or reading????

The present Iranian IRBMs have a range of around 1500 KM. The next generation is planned for 2500 KM +- draw some circles on the map and tell me what they could hit. And THAT is ignoring the placement of the present IRBMs on container ships and standing off-shore from the US, say 300 miles out in International waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:48 AM

"If that is the case then Israel is at least 200 times as scary."

And Russia is thousands of times more scary, and so is the US. China is hundreds of times more scary, and Pakistan and India are equally scary.

But ONLY Iran is in violation of the UN Treaty they signed.



And people who put their heads in the sand and ignore Iran are the scariest of all.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 12:51 PM

And Israel is a serial UN violator, B. Bruce, but we aren't all getting overly paranoid about its nukes (apart from the sheer hypocrisy of their having them and threatening to start a war because they think someone they don't like who's never started a war might also be thinking of getting one).

What was that about facts, B. Bruce? If you want to present facts, try doing it without the alarmist claptrap. You make it hard for one to sort out the facts from the hype otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 01:14 PM

"Hamas will break its covenant and stop trying to kill Jews given more concessions,"
Massacres of Palestinian villagers were taking place with hand grenades being thrown into occupied houses as British troops were pulling out in 1949
Missile attacks on Israel came 20 years after Israel's opening attempts to control the Palestinian economy AS A RETALIATION to that control.
Perhaps if Israelis stopped killing Palestinians, massacring refugees, taking their land, destroying their homes, bombarding them with heavy artillery and chemicals, imprisoning children, humiliating them on a daily basis.... and generally stopped behaving like the bunch of Nazis they appear to have become, the missiles would stop.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 01:32 PM

I doubt it,Jim, too many people making money out of stirring the pot, and selling arms, guns etc,
iran is NOW being presented as a bogeynman by the USA BECAUSE THEY ARE THREATENING THE PETRO DOLLAR , TALKING ABOUT AND PROPOSING SELLING OIL IN EUROS.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 01:43 PM

As for me, I'm still waiting to hear about these "concessions". And for Keith to tell me whether continuing theft of land for settlements at an accelerating pace is "addressing the issue properly". Come along now, Keith. Never mind that you seem to think that Gaza and the West Bank are a million miles apart and have nothing to do with each other. Do you think it's OK for Israel to keep on building those settlements? Or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 03:53 PM

Jim, I do not agree with your version of the history of the region, and you seem to be saying that Israelis deserve to have missiles fired at them.
Right?
And, please remember this is about Gaza.

Steve, in Gaza there is no expansion of settlements.
Let me tell you again about the concessions already made by Israel.

When Hamas started rocketing Israel, they complained that Israeli troops were in Gaza and there were Israeli settlements.
To address the issue, Israel kicked out all its settlers.
Then it completely withdrew all its people and troops back into Israel.
They hoped Hamas might respond positively to those enormous conciliatory moves, but Hamas was and is only interested in killing Jews.

Now will you tell me why you believe Hamas will break its covenant and stop trying to kill Jews if given more concessions, when all previous concession have only resulted in an increase in attacks?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 08:33 PM

When Hamas started rocketing Israel, they complained that Israeli troops were in Gaza and there were Israeli settlements.
To address the issue, Israel kicked out all its settlers.
Then it completely withdrew all its people and troops back into Israel.
They hoped Hamas might respond positively to those enormous conciliatory moves, but Hamas was and is only interested in killing Jews.

Pure revisionism. Sharon pulled out of Gaza because it was not worth staying there any more. It was, literally, more trouble than it was worth. It was not done as any sort of graceful, peace-seeking concession to the Palestinians. It was a piece of realpolitik. Your analysis was conjured up in cloud cuckoo land. The Israeli administrations of recent years have not made one single meaningful concession, and they don't need to and they never will. Not until the US threatens to withdraw the military aid. Do you think that those West Bank settlements, still expanding at an ever-faster rate, is a good way of dealing withe issue "properly", Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 08:34 PM

with the, I s'pose.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:35 PM

This is a long thread and my computer is running slow. Perhaps somewhere in the above messages it is explained but I am left wondering???
What is the difference between a complete and an incomplete arsehole? I am quite aware of what an arsehole is as well as its idiomatic meaning but the "complete" part really confuses me.
Might arseholes on both sides fit the definition or are some more complete than others?
In any case the world is governed by arseholes as shown here:
Leaders

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 03:04 AM

Sharon pulled out of Gaza because it was not worth staying there any more. It was, literally, more trouble than it was worth.

All made up Steve.
You can not make your case without fabrications.

The settlements were thriving and prosperous, producing food in plenty and employing lots of Gazans.
IDF had to force them out at gunpoint.
Likewise the successful businesses, including those inside Israel that hundreds of Gazans commuted to every day for well paid jobs.

Pulling out cost Israel dear, but it would have been worth it to bring peace.

. The Israeli administrations of recent years have not made one single meaningful concession

When Hamas started rocketing Israel, they complained that Israeli troops were in Gaza and there were Israeli settlements.
To address the issue, Israel kicked out all its settlers.
Then it completely withdrew all its people and troops back into Israel.

More recently, the Gazans complained that Israel imposed restrictions on them just because they kept murdering Jews with missiles.

Amazingly, and dangerously, Israel reduced or removed all the restrictions.

They hoped Hamas might respond positively to those enormous conciliatory moves, but Hamas was and is only interested in killing Jews.

Do you think that those West Bank settlements,....

Hamas regards the whole of Israel as an illegal settlement.
It is openly pledged to kill and drive out every Jew from the place, so this or that settlement in West Bank is utterly irrelevant to them.
This is not me making shit up.
They are quite open about it and keep telling everyone, but you naive saps think they don't really mean it, or else you share their aspirations.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 03:21 AM

"Jim, I do not agree with your version of the history of the region, "
Not my version - you've had your evidence and you've consistently chosen either to ignore it or deny it without proof. You have any problems with what has been presented to you (again and again and again...) show us where they have got it wrong.
Even now you continue to dismiss without specifying exactly what you disagree with."Israelis deserve to have missiles fired at them." - I realise it is pissing in the wind to ask you to qualify your accusation - but feel free.
You, on the other hand, have persistently defended Israeli atrocities aimed specifically at Palestinian civilians, either denying that they ever happened or suggesting that the Israelis have a right to fire into built up areas because they know Hamas is hiding there (in other words, slaughtering hostages). You have yet to explain how the Israelis know exactly where Hamas fighters are, especially when the Israelis have made it clear that they don't - making their attacks totally randon (apartment blocks, press centres, and in the past, schools and hospitals).
"And, please remember this is about Gaza."
Where does the OP say anything about Gaza - it is about the Israeli leaders and their behaviour towards the Palestinians, and for someone who constantly manipulates threads away from the original subject to suit your own agenda, you have a ******* cheek to attempt to manipulate this one away from from the bits that don't suit you and into your own particular comfort zone. You have been warned before; you have no authority on this forum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 03:52 AM

How much are the Israelis and/or various jewish organisations paying Keith A?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:12 AM

Where does the OP say anything about Gaza

The OP "Are they not doing a Cristina Kirshner by diverting attention from Isael's social and other problems???"
What they were doing was attacking Hamas, IN GAZA!

show us where they have got it wrong.
I already have, and how cross it makes you to have an alternative version of events presented.

."Israelis deserve to have missiles fired at them." - I realise it is pissing in the wind to ask you to qualify your accusation - but feel free.
Thanks Jim.
In your previous post 29 Nov 12 - 01:14 PM you ascribed the missile attacks as retaliation for a list of made up Israeli crimes.

suggesting that the Israelis have a right to fire into built up areas because they know Hamas is hiding there
I do not suggest, I state it as a fact.
If a combatant fights from civilian occupied positions, you may still engage them provided you give warnings of what you intend to do and make every effort to minimise civilian casualties.
Israel was careful to comply with International Law on that.

You have yet to explain how the Israelis know exactly where Hamas fighters are
IDF are able to identify exactly where the war criminals are hiding.
Look what happened to Jabari and all those fighters in the press building.
They monitor mobile phone transmissions and use voice print technology, and Gazans also give them away.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:15 AM

Don Wise, you have guessed right.
I take millions in Jewish gold, mostly in tooth form, and am part of that global Jewish conspiracy to rule the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 06:02 AM

"What they were doing was attacking Hamas, IN GAZA!
No they weren't - they were indiscriminately bombing - go and look at the targets - apartment blocks, - casualty figures - and how many of those were civilian - women and children.
That you see these as legitimate targets says what needs to be said about you and your thuggish cronies.
"PM you ascribed the missile attacks as retaliation for a list of made up Israeli crimes."
Exactly - the missile attacks are a direct consequence of the Israeli regime's behaviour - a point everybody has been making to you but which you have rejected (without proof). Nobody has remotely suggested that the Israeli people "deserve" to be bombarded, just that the blame lies with their own governments.
"....mostly in tooth form,"
What an appalling attempt at humour
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 06:34 AM

No they weren't - they were indiscriminately bombing - go and look at the targets

Here are some assessments of casualties.

By 22 November, the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights said that 158 Palestinians had been killed since the operation began, of which: 102 were civilians, 55 militants and one was policeman. 30 children and 13 women were among the killed.[323][324]

The Israel Defense Forces have stated that out of 177 Palestinians killed, 120 were militants.[16] The UN has estimated that 103 of the Palestinian victims of civilians
So after thousands of strikes in a densely populated urban area, about 103 civilians, some of whom would be willing to be shields or martyrs.
Indiscriminate bombing on that scale would have killed thousands.

Israeli MFA
As a result of IDF operations, the command and control apparatus of Hamas was significantly struck, beginning with the targeting of the commander of the military wing of Hamas, Ahmed Jabari, continuing with the targeting of broad terrorist infrastructure, facilities and military bases, as well as the destruction of dozens of smuggling and explosive tunnels.

During the operation, the IDF damaged and destroyed significant elements of Hamas' strategic capabilities. Among those capabilities were long-range (over 40 km) and hundreds of short- and medium-range rocket launchers. These actions have severely impaired Hamas' launching capabilities. The Iron Dome defense system has accomplished high rate of successful interceptions (84%) and Hamas' accuracy with regards to hitting populated areas within Israel remained below 7%.

Over the course of Operation Pillar of Defense, the IDF targeted over 1,500 terror sites including 19 senior command centers, operational control centers and Hamas' senior-rank headquarters, 30 senior operatives, damaging Hamas' command and control, hundreds of underground rocket launchers, 140 smuggling tunnels, 66 terror tunnels, dozens of Hamas operation rooms and bases, 26 weapon manufacturing and storage facilities and dozens of long-range rocket launchers and launch sites.

Senior operatives targeted:

Ahmed Jabari, head of Hamas' military wing
Hab's Hassan Us Msamch, senior operative in Hamas' police
Ahmed Abu Jalal, Commander of the military wing in Al-Muazi
Khaled Shaer, senior operative in the anti-tank operations
Osama Kadi, senior operative in the smuggling operations in the southern Gaza Strip
Muhammad Kalb, senior operative in the aerial defense operations
Ramz Harb, Islamic Jihad senior operative in propaganda in Gaza city

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:45 AM

Keith, you're a bloody waste of space. Only pete on creationism can match you for turning and twisting and denying blazing realities and holding your head in the clouds. Is Lieberman your uncle?

On a far more serious note, I have advice for those wishing to distinguish between incomplete and complete arseholes. Simple. All you have to do is look at things in the round.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:59 AM

Keith, you're a bloody waste of space. Only pete on creationism can match you for turning and twisting and denying blazing realities and holding your head in the clouds. Is Lieberman your uncle?

All very insulting, but not one specific challenge to anything I have said.
You can't because it is fact.

You have to make up your stuff.

Now, will you explain why you still believe Hamas will break its covenant, and stop trying to kill Jews, if given more concessions even though all previous concession have only resulted in an increase in attacks?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 10:47 AM

"Jabari was assassinated extra-judicially"

Jabari assasinated extra-judicially but since it was Jews he was killing I guess that doesn't earn your opprobrium.

That won't wash any more Bobad.

The fact that somebody commits a crime neither does, nor should, exonerate the victim for resorting to the same criminal methods. That is the stupid thinking of the playground bully.

BOTH TO BLAME!

One day you and Keith will catch on, but I'm not holding my breath.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 11:07 AM

""IDF does not carry out indiscriminate murder of Arabs.""

So just what are those civilians who die in Israeli air strikes, shellings and shootings through the border, Norwegians?

You and Bobad between you tell more lies than the Official Israeli propagandists.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 11:14 AM

""However, we have seen that concessions make no difference to Hamas except to increase there will to kill more Jews, so it is not an issue.""

If that's the case, they're being pretty ineffective in their attempts, losing at kill rates of between ten to one and a hundred to one.

There'll be lots of Israelis around to bury the last Gaza Palestinian.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 11:27 AM

""All the issues elsewhere are irrelevant to Hamas.
You kid yourself that Hamas hits Israel because of them.
If Israel withdrew from West Bank, tore down the wall, etc., Hamas would still be attacking.""

I'm sure Hamas would prefer a wall between Palestine and Israel.

What they won't accept is Israelis living on the best of their land as if they own it.

You Keith are either very stupid or very devious in not recognising that the Palestinians are entitled to wantnthose settlers off Palestinian land and back in their own country.

You want to keep off the subject of West Bank settlements because their existence makes nonsense of your claims that Hamas still fires rockets when Israel has withdrawn.

Israel has not withdrawn, and Israelis are still squatting on Palestinian territory, and you can't just choose which stolen land should end their resistence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 11:50 AM

""I suspect the number of civiliian Gazans killed would increase by several orders of magnitude, but that seems to be what DonT has suggested, in requiring ONLY a "Proportionate" response.""

I'm getting heartily sick of halfwits taking my words out of context and assigning utterly false meanings of their own, and now here comes yet another.

READ MY FUCKING LIPS!   BOTH SIDES ARE TO BLAME!   But one of them is capable of totally destroying the other, and one is NOT!

The government and the military forces of Israel are presiding over the land grab by Israeli citizens, of the best land belonging to Palestine.

It is ridiculous to believe that the government of any country on earth would meekly accept that, but that is exactly what our biased Israeli apologists want Hamas to do.

And Hamas, however nasty, (and it is bloody nasty) is the de facto government of Palestine.

The lengths to which Keith and Bobad will go to avoid having to admit that Israel is far from having withdrawn from Palestian land, is a good measure of the weakness (which they would hate to admit) of their argument.

The mantra of which Keith makes so much use, about Hamas' covenant to destroy Israel, is just nonsense. They don't and never will, have the capability to do more than scare a lot of people and even more cattle, and kill on average two people a year.

Two people an hour would be a low score for Israeli attacks.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 12:26 PM

I can't believe that no-one has made this juxtaposition: -

UN recognition of Palestine

Israel's response

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 01:14 PM

Richard, Your link (Israel's response) doesn't pull anything up..do you have another?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 01:24 PM

What else is to be expected from a bunch of arseholes whose interest in peaceful relations with the Palestinians is either the peace of the graveyard or of ethnic cleansing.........

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:59 PM

resorting to the same criminal methods
Jalbari was an enemy combatant operating beyond judicial reach.
He was a completely legitimate military target.

So just what are those civilians who die in Israeli air strikes,
They were the tragic victims of the war criminals fighting from civilian locations.
IDF did everything possible to minimise such casualties including giving warnings of its strikes, and despite hitting well over a thousand targets, only about 103 civilians died.
The experience of Syria shows us that indiscriminate bombing on that scale in a densely populated urban area should have killed tens of thousands.

If that's the case, they're being pretty ineffective in their attempts,
Thank God for that, but it is not acceptable for millions of ordinary people to be terrorised endlessly and stop all normal life and live underground, to avoid being killed.

You Keith are either very stupid or very devious in not recognising that the Palestinians are entitled to wantnthose settlers off Palestinian land
As I said Don, Hamas are dedicated to killing Jews and driving Jews out of Israel, so they will not stop whatever Israel does or does not do, because it is their very existence that drives them.

The mantra of which Keith makes so much use, about Hamas' covenant to destroy Israel, is just nonsense

Sure Don.
They say it, they act on it, but they don't really mean it.
Jews are just being paranoid.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 07:37 PM

He was a completely legitimate military target

No he wasn't. He was not directly involved in direct battle and he was not setting off rockets. I don't mind your trying to justify his killing, but let's at least be honest, Keith. He was assassinated inside the Gaza Strip (which you claim the Israelis had walked away from). He was not involved at that time in firing at the enemy. The killing was organised by the Israeli leadership who were informed by their intelligence agency of his location in a non-combat zone. Now I was glad deep down inside when Ceausescu was bumped off. I shed no tears when Osama was nobbled. I almost certainly would not, had I been around, have fretted over Musso hanging upside down from a lamp-post. But these were extra-judicial killings just the same as the killing of yer man in Gaza was an extra-judicial killing. We can argue all night about the rights and wrongs of such expedient tactics. But Keith, please have the grace to call it what it was. Summary execution without trial. Will that do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 07:50 PM

That's what it was, Steve. Didn't break my heart. The MF lived by the same sword he died by.

That aside, I hope the Likud loses in this election because they ain't making all that much sense right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:03 PM

I just wish that some people on this board could be as straightforward, Bruce. I don't mind having to confront unpalatable things about Hamas, and they are many. It grieves me, though, when I see people like Keith doing every twist and turn in the book to deny reality. I don't think the Palestinians have got things right very often. To read Keith's posts, though, you'd think that the Israeli leadership down the decades has been all sweetness and light. And I still can't get him to say whether he thinks that the accelerating settlement-building is the proper way to deal with the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 01:40 AM

He was senior leadership of an organisation at war with Israel.
He commanded those who fired the missiles.
He told where to illegally fire them from, and which towns to illegally fire them at
He was a legitimate military target.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 10:58 AM

Blessed are the peacemekers!!
http://news.yahoo.com/israel-okays-west-bank-settlement-construction-163700464.html
Jim Carroll