BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 02:04 PM

Ahh..999, and Steve(I can't believe it)..the U.N. question I was asking, "So why is the U.N. doing nothing much?..either in Israel or Syria??" has to do with the 'Security Council'....
What do those five countries, United States, United kingdom, France, China and Russia, have in common, besides being on the 'Security Council'....what is is they have to gain...by prolonging doing anything?...there, or almost anywhere else?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:28 PM

Is it that they all have nuclear weapons GFS?

The most significant thing in my opinion is the positions taken by Iran, Syria and Hezbollah since the Israeli assault began. None have offered nearly so much support for Hamas and Gaza as they did during Operation Cast Lead three years ago . This can only be because they are aware that Hamas, which is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood , moved its international HQ to Qatar earlier in the year to join the emerging anti-Syrian , anti-Iranian, Sunni consensus being constructed in that country under the guidance of Saudi Arabia and the watchful eye of the US - Israel's main ally . The Muslim Brotherhood in Syria is very much part of that emerging consensus .

Because the Israelis didn't send in ground forces ,Hamas is able to sell the past eight days of slaughter as some sort of a victory for itself and the people of the enclave. But it was nothing of the sort. In the same week that he announced dictatorial powers for himself ,it was Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood President, Mohammed Mursi that negotiated the ceasefire between Gaza and Israel, with the approval of Washington ,because it allows the US to concentrate on its strategy of regime change in Syria and then Iran. This explains the words of Netanyahu in agreeing to the ceasefire, , "We also have other fronts. We must take into account the entire picture."

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:36 PM

In other words, yes the Israeli leaders are complete arseholes (unless that's an oxymoron lol) , but they are not stupid

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:38 PM

mayomick, I'm glad you took a shot at it!!
You're sorta close..but this may cast a different light on the U.N.'s 'Security Council's' agenda..
U.S., U.K., China, Russia, and France ARE the world's largest and near only, traders of arms, both black market and 'over the counter'(legitimate)!
It accounts for a tremendous amount of their GDP along with the illegal drug trade!!!
Yes, times are tough..but no matter what ideology they taut, Socialism, communism, Fascism..they've ALL made a bundle of the capitalistic arms and drug trade!!!!!
Think they will vote against their financial interests????!!!!???

True Story!!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 05:40 PM

The problem with the UN is that any one of the Security Council can veto anything that the majority wants... And with so many different national interests that occurs over and over...

BTW, I am curious as to why Netanyahu seems to have given up as much as he is reported in the cease-fire/truce agreement...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:43 PM

""The Israeli Defense Force said a group of about 300 people had approached a fence in a no-go area east of Khan Younis on Friday and some attempted to break through.""

1. What right have the Israelis to set up no go areas on the Gaza side of the fence?

2. "The Israeli Defence Force said"......well that'll be the truth then, for the more gullible onlooker.

3. 300 people try to break through a fence in the face of IDF border units..........What is wrong with this concept?

4. The Israelis are worried enough to shoot into the crowd, but only hit one man.............incredible. They need re-training.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:48 PM

""Still no real response to my question as to why all these essential medical & nutritional supplies can't get in by same route as the missiles, apart from good old predictable J Carroll's 'guns not butter' one. Any other suggestions of a reply to this imo simple & obvious question.""

You had a response from me on this subject, which you chose to ignore, so what is the point of asking?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 09:29 PM

Bobert, the way I see it :
Gaza is a surrounded pawn on the chessboard as far as Netenyahu is concerned . For Israel and America the strategic enemy is Iran .To isolate Iran they have deal with the Assad regime in Syria . At the same time they must prevent the overwhelming anti-Israeli sentiment in Egypt from translating itself into a pro-Iran movement. .

Public opinion in Israel was strongly against a ground invasion, but not against a continuation of the war on Gaza by air . The Israeli government calculated that it could only proceed by either continuing its air campaign or by making a deal of some sort with Hamas . The former course would enrage "the Arab street" from Egypt to Syria , thereby threatening the Saudi-backed Sunni alliance being put in place to deal with Iran . The most sensible thing for Israel to do was allow Egypt to re-assume the role of policing access to Gaza that it used to play under Mubarach .

Israel cannot act independently of its major ally and sponsor , and knows that Washington has designs for the region as a whole.A lot of leftists talk about the Israeli tail wagging the American dog ,but that's not the way things are: America tells Israel what to do , not the other way around . Continued bombing of Gaza would upset America's overall calculations without achieving anything more than senseless slaughter. For some in Israel that would be enough,of course, but, for now at least, Netenyahu "must take into account the entire picture". The diplomatic custodian of that entire picture is the American State Department.

Hillary Clinton expressed the State Department's views this way on her visit to Cairo two days before the ceasefire was announced :

"Egypt's new government is assuming the responsibility and leadership that has long made this country a cornerstone of regional stability and peace."

Electorally, Netenyahu and Liebermann have done enough to ensure Israel's bomb-them-back-to-the-Dark Ages vote in next year's election. I really can't see what Netenyahu is supposed to have given up.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 09:40 PM

I agree... Seems that Yetanyahu folded after several phone conversation from Obama...

As for Egypt??? I see this more as a temper tantrum of the Murbarak supporters who are duping a few disgruntled leftists into joining in as they are pissed that things ain't happening as fast as they would like...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:56 PM

Bobert: "Seems that Yetanyahu folded after several phone conversation from Obama.."

Don't fool yourself, Ol' Bobert!
Israel's sense of national survival does not mirror ours.
Frankly, if I were Netanyahu, I'd say about anything to Obama to get that fool off the phone!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 04:33 AM


1. What right have the Israelis to set up no go areas on the Gaza side of the fence?

All israel's border fences are set on their side of the border with a no-go area within their territory.
Apart from security, it enables them to do maintainance on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 07:15 AM

All Israel's border fences are set on what they have unilaterally decided is their side of the border with a no-go area within the territory they have usurped.
Apart from security, it enables them to do maintenance on both sides, which is what you have to do when you've constructed a huge open prison and decreed exactly how many calories each Gaza inhabitant is entitled to.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 07:54 AM

Miko Peleds grandfather signed Israel into existence.

His Father was a war hero in the 1947 and 1967 wars.

His niece was killed by palestinian a suicide bomber.


His critics call him a self hating Jew.


They say the same thing about Norman Finkelstein and Max Blumenthal.


I suppose that easier than engaging with the facts.


Miko Peled speaking on October 1st this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 09:02 AM

Steve Shaw, Israel did not decide where the border with Gaza lies.
Why claim it did?

Why do you people all make stuff up about Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 09:20 AM

"Steve Shaw, Israel did not decide where the border with Gaza lies.
Why claim it did?"

Keith A of Hertford

Please explain how you think the "borders" of Gaza came about.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 09:42 AM

I think they were decided between Egypt and Israel in 1948 when Egypt controlled Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 10:12 AM

You think? You are calling Shaw a liar and you "think?"

Be ashamed!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 10:40 AM

Acthally, Jack, he DOESN'T think - therein lies the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 10:45 AM

I was just repeating your word "think."
It is a fact that the Gaza border with Israel was agreed between Israel and Egypt, who controlled it, in 1949.
The boundaries are defined by the "1967 borders"
The Palestinian negotiators claim a return to those lines as the boundary for a future Palestinian state. The Arab League has supported these boundaries as the borders of the future State of Palestine in the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 11:09 AM

So Greg, it is not me who does not think, and Steve was quite wrong to make that false claim.

Why can you people not discuss this without making stuff up and being offensive?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:08 PM

Try a little more thinking, Keith, and a little less emoting. Just an outsider's observation.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:14 PM

Thinking?????
Most of it is 'left wing' rhetoric that they just repeat, as if it was fact.
The 'right wing' does the same thing...however, when a foreign country starts lobbing missiles into your country, both sides, left or right, WILL defend themselves.
When the 'left' starts Israel bashing('cause that's in their talking points), they might consider that Israel, if it was all that bad, could have blasted their enemies to oblivion a LONG time ago..but hasn't, have they?...and REPEATEDLY, it is the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc etc, who has launched attacks into Israel's borders......but that doesn't count, does it?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:49 PM

Greg, most of the emoting has come from the anti-Israelis about their supposed evil deeds.
I do think out my posts (exception when sidetracked onto WW2 RAF bomb construction)
It is the anti-Israelis who have to make up crimes that should do more thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 01:44 PM

"anti Israeli"

Such an easy accusation to make.

What about Miko Peled?

Is he anti Israeli?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 02:17 PM

The governments of Israel and Hamas are trying to keep the truce.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 02:26 PM

Yes, Bruce, they are....now to see who breaks it.
Stay tuned.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 02:40 PM

First you say Israel did not decide the boarders, then you say that they set the boarders in partnership with the Egyptians, then you say they decided the boarders in conquest in the 1967 war, (which is my understanding) then you contradict your first two, conflicting statements by saying that the Palestinians want to go back to the boarder that Israel and Egypt set?

Shame on your bold faced lies. Shame on your stupidity. Shame on your lack of respect of the people on this forum by not thinking before you type and for not even bothering to read your own previous lies before typing in new ones.

Shame
Shame Shame!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 04:26 PM

Jack dear.
It is a fact that Egypt and Israel agreed the border over sixty years ago.
The border stood until the 1968 war so it is referred to as the 67 border.
That is the border accepted by all the Palestinians, and the 1967 borders are what they are demanding elsewhere, but they are already in place between Israel and Gaza.
I do not tell lies Jack, and in this discussion I wouldn't need to anyway.
I expect you would like to apologise.
Why is your side of this discussion so offensive?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 06:33 PM

Keith dear,
You say "It is a fact that Egypt and Israel agreed the border over sixty years ago."

Would you be so very kind as to state precisely when any such border agreement was signed ,my hearty good friend? The reason I make my inquiry is that it has always been my firm belief that no border had been agreed between Egypt and Israel until the signing of a peace deal between the two countries in 1972 .

I will most certainly not accuse you of lying ,my dear friend , but of taking something of a shortcut,shall we say, in your presentation of the facts.

The armistice agreements reached in 1949 were clear that they were not creating permanent borders. The Egyptian-Israeli agreement stated:

"The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question."

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 07:24 PM

Who are these "anti-Israelis", Keith? I'm certainly not one. In fact, I'm extremely pro-Israeli. I want every Israeli citizen to live in peace, prosperity and security. I'm anti those people who put ordinary Israeli families in harm's way. The people who claim to be protecting ordinary Israelis are actually the same people who make it impossible for them to live honest, peaceful lives. That is not me or Hamas or anyone else outside Israel. It is Mr Netanyahu and his mates, and his predecessors, and his supporters in his administration, and all those people in the US, led by AIPAC, who lean on their administration to arm Israel to the teeth. Actually, Keith, when I come to think of it, I'm a damn sight more pro-Israeli than you will ever be.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 01:18 AM

Mick. how refreshing to be spoken to with courtesy.
Thank you.
You are right of course that the boundaries agreed in 49 were not created as international borders at that time.
Since then those same borders, agreed between Israel and Egypt, the controlling authority of Gaza, have become accepted by all parties, including every Palestinian faction,
They are part of the "green line" that Palestinians want a return to, but in Gaza already have.

I hope you will agree that I was right to clarify Steve's intemperate claim that "Israel unilaterally decided" the Gaza border.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 03:05 AM

Steve, if you were "pro-Israel" you would not join in the slandering of Israel with made up crimes indulged in by all the Israel bashers because it inconsiderately refuses to commit any real ones.

Israel had not "unilaterally decided is their side of the border " as you falsely stated.

My reply " they were decided between Egypt and Israel in 1948 when Egypt controlled Gaza. " was the actual, factual truth.

You have yet to acknowledge this and allowed Jack's completely unjustified assault on me to stand, i.e.
"Shame on your bold faced lies. Shame on your stupidity. Shame on your lack of respect of the people on this forum by not thinking before you type and for not even bothering to read your own previous lies before typing in new ones.

Shame
Shame Shame!!!! "

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:07 AM

the slandering of Israel with made up crimes indulged in by all the Israel bashers because it inconsiderately refuses to commit any real ones.

What a jaw-dropping, incredible comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:23 AM

""It is a fact that the Gaza border with Israel was agreed between Israel and Egypt, who controlled it, in 1949.
The boundaries are defined by the "1967 borders"""

That horse seems to be pushing the cart!

The borders were decided in '49 and defined by the '67 border.

That doesn't make sense unless you believe in time travel.

Apart from which, the '67 border was decided by the winners of a war grabbing territory from the losers, n'est ce pas?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:26 AM

""and REPEATEDLY, it is the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc etc, who has launched attacks into Israel's borders......but that doesn't count, does it?""

I'm sure the Palestinians would see that as trying to escape a concentration camp set up by a neighbour.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:31 AM

""ultimate settlement of the Palestine question." ""

That phrase has some very unpleasant connotations, which, in the light of recent events make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:48 AM

Israel Bashers ...

... I wonder - Is Miko Peled an Israel Basher? Or Norman Finkelstein? Or max blumenthal? or any one of an increasing number of American and Israeli Jews who are becoming less easy to convince of the Hasbara mantra?

No They aren't - and use of the term "israeli Basher" is an easy way out that is losing its short term power to mislead as the truth about the operational reality of the Zionist dream not only endures, despite attempts to suppress it, but is compounded with each election campaign ... er ... I mean war ... er ... I mean massacre.

Well thankfully Finkelstein was right that this latest crisis was not going to escalate. Clever man.

He was right about the rest of it too.

All Israeli sources of course ... because in this debate Arab sources are assumed to be unreliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:55 AM


The borders were decided in '49 and defined by the '67 border.

That doesn't make sense unless you believe in time travel.

Apart from which, the '67 border was decided by the winners of a war grabbing territory from the losers, n'est ce pas?

No Don.
When people talk of the 67 boundaries, the mean BEFORE the 67 war.
That is what the Palestinians want a return to.
Prior to the 67 war, Gaza borders were as agreed in 49.
Those are the current boundaries of Gaza and no-one in the world is challenging them except for some Mudcat members.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 08:02 AM

"Prior to the 67 war, Gaza borders were as agreed in 49.
Those are the current boundaries of Gaza and no-one in the world is challenging them except for some Mudcat members."

People aren't challenging "the borders of Gaza", they are challenging the borders of Palestine.

This includes the west bank.

This includes the challenge to Israeli settlements.

And in contrast to "some mudcat members" challenging this, in fact the international community has challlenged this explicitly in the form of UN resolutions.

So perhaps it would be more accurate to say "some mudcat members, and about 180 countries worldwide".

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 08:22 AM

On this thread we are discussing Gaza.
All discussion has been about Gaza, and 340 posts is a bit late to start discussing an even bigger subject.
If you want my opinion on other boundaries in the Middle East, start another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 08:26 AM

Well, the Gazans and Israelis seem to be doing better than the people who post here. Incidentally, yesterday the Iranians were loading a ship with missiles. Israel suspects the end users will be in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 08:33 AM

Clipping- Islamic edict makes violating Gaza cease-fire a sin:


Cease-fire

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 08:37 AM

Good article, Ed. I read it yesterday somewhere. Sanity may yet prevail.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 11:05 AM

Assuming that we all know that Israle won the 67 war. Keith has utterly obliterated his own points.

He has said.

"Israel did not set Gaza's borders."

He has said that in 1949, Isreal "agreed to the borders." So Keith is saying that they had a a large hand in setting them even then.

Then in 1967 the Borders of Gaza, became wherever the victorious army "Israel's" decided to stop. Since then Israel has guarded the borders, including the sea, and not only decided the boundaries but what could pass though them. Then until very recently Israel set the boarders WITHIN gaza, by allowing "settlements and giving them military support.

But lets go back to Keith's statement that Palestine want's to "go back to" the 1967 boarders? That statement proves (in the context of a disagreement with the speaker) that the boarders have changed. All we have to do in that case is consider who set the post 1967 boundaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 01:05 PM

"On this thread we are discussing Gaza."

ha ha - how funny - what an excellent way of avoiding having to explaiin a flaw in your reasoning.

In your mind the issue of the 67 borders in relation to Gaza is a separate subject in isolation.

There is only one topical debate on the question of 67 borders and it is not about Gaza - only Keith would try to pretend otherwise.

Mr Grumpy says that I am late joining the discussion.

... and? ...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 01:18 PM

Something the rest of you might find interesting.

Here is a collection of testimonies of IDF soldiers who have broken their silence to condemn IDF actions in Gaza.

Amongst other things they describe the blockade as punishment.

Presumably they are also Israel Bashers/Haters.


IDF Testimony

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 02:02 PM

""All discussion has been about Gaza, and 340 posts is a bit late to start discussing an even bigger subject.
If you want my opinion on other boundaries in the Middle East, start another thread.""

So you, Keith, don't think that what happens in the West Bank would have any bearing on the likely actions of Hamas in Gaza.

I sure wish I had your smug certainty of always being right.

It certainly reflects both the dishonesty and arrogance of the Israeli government, and your own dishonesty in stating that Israel have committed no crimes and behaved honourably, simply because their internationally recognised crimes took place elsewhere than the bit you wish to focus on.

When you made that statement it did not finish with "in Gaza", did it?

Your intention obviously to gloss over what you cannot justify.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,songster
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 02:19 PM

Apropos those who are disappointed that the Israeli casualties are not higher:

too bad the Israelis have iron dome Department

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 04:24 PM

Isn't "Iron Dome" just something that allows the Israelis to practice their "self-deportation" from Palestine policy with a little fewer consequences for Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 04:57 PM

We were talking about the Gazan border where someone died a couple of days ago.
I said, correctly that the fence was inside Israel's border.
Steve then said that Israel had unilaterally set the border.

The border was decided and agreed in 49 by the government on either side.
Egypt and Israel.
Not unilateral

They have since been accepted by everyone concerned.
You people hardly count.

The Palestinians demand Israel withdraws to the "green lines" pre 67 war.
In Gaza they already have.