BS: Death of the Democratic Party?

Subject: BS: Death of the Demopcratic Party?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 02:16 PM

"Keep the Big Tent big

By William M. Daley
Thursday, December 24, 2009

The announcement by Alabama Rep. Parker Griffith that he is switching to the Republican Party is just the latest warning sign that the Democratic Party -- my lifelong political home -- has a critical decision to make: Either we plot a more moderate, centrist course or risk electoral disaster not just in the upcoming midterms but in many elections to come.

Rep. Griffith's decision makes him the fifth centrist Democrat to either switch parties or announce plans to retire rather than stand for reelection in 2010. These announcements are a sharp reversal from the progress the Democratic Party made starting in 2006 and continuing in 2008, when it reestablished itself as the nation's majority party for the first time in more than a decade. That success happened for one major reason: Democrats made inroads in geographies and constituencies that had trended Republican since the 1960s. In these two elections, a majority of independents and a sizable number of moderate Republicans joined the traditional Democratic base to sweep Democrats to commanding majorities in Congress and to bring Barack Obama to the White House.

These independents and Republicans supported Democrats based on a message indicating that the party would be a true Big Tent -- that we would welcome a diversity of views even on tough issues such as abortion, gun rights and the role of government in the economy.

This call was answered not just by voters but by a surge of smart, talented candidates who came forward to run and win under the Democratic banner in districts dominated by Republicans for a generation. These centrists swelled the party's ranks in Congress and contributed to Obama's victories in states such as Indiana, North Carolina, Virginia, Colorado and other Republican bastions.

But now they face a grim political fate. On the one hand, centrist Democrats are being vilified by left-wing bloggers, pundits and partisan news outlets for not being sufficiently liberal, "true" Democrats. On the other, Republicans are pounding them for their association with a party that seems to be advancing an agenda far to the left of most voters.

The political dangers of this situation could not be clearer.

Witness the losses in New Jersey and Virginia in this year's off-year elections. In those gubernatorial contests, the margin of victory was provided to Republicans by independents -- many of whom had voted for Obama. Just one year later, they had crossed back to the Republicans by 2-to-1 margins.

Witness the drumbeat of ominous poll results. Obama's approval rating has fallen below 49 percent overall and is even lower -- 41 percent -- among independents. On the question of which party is best suited to manage the economy, there has been a 30-point swing toward Republicans since November 2008, according to Ipsos. Gallup's generic congressional ballot shows Republicans leading Democrats. There is not a hint of silver lining in these numbers. They are the quantitative expression of the swing bloc of American politics slipping away.

And, of course, witness the loss of Rep. Griffith and his fellow moderate Democrats who will retire. They are perhaps the truest canaries in the coal mine.

Despite this raft of bad news, Democrats are not doomed to return to the wilderness. The question is whether the party is prepared to listen carefully to what the American public is saying. Voters are not re-embracing conservative ideology, nor are they falling back in love with the Republican brand. If anything, the Democrats' salvation may lie in the fact that Republicans seem even more hell-bent on allowing their radical wing to drag the party away from the center.

All that is required for the Democratic Party to recover its political footing is to acknowledge that the agenda of the party's most liberal supporters has not won the support of a majority of Americans -- and, based on that recognition, to steer a more moderate course on the key issues of the day, from health care to the economy to the environment to Afghanistan.

For liberals to accept that inescapable reality is not to concede permanent defeat. Rather, let them take it as a sign that they must continue the hard work of slowly and steadily persuading their fellow citizens to embrace their perspective. In the meantime, liberals -- and, indeed, all of us -- should have the humility to recognize that there is no monopoly on good ideas, as well as the long-term perspective to know that intraparty warfare will only relegate the Democrats to minority status, which would be disastrous for the very constituents they seek to represent.

The party's moment of choosing is drawing close. While it may be too late to avoid some losses in 2010, it is not too late to avoid the kind of rout that redraws the political map. The leaders of the Democratic Party need to move back toward the center -- and in doing so, set the stage for the many years' worth of leadership necessary to produce the sort of pragmatic change the American people actually want.

The writer was secretary of commerce in the Clinton administration and chairman of Al Gore's 2000 presidential campaign. "

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Demopcratic Party?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 02:24 PM

If only they would BOTH die! The Democratic and Republican parties, that is. Then there might be a chance for something to improve in your governmental nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Demopcratic Party?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 02:29 PM

Death?? piffle! Parker Griffith is simply positioning himself with what he 'thinks' will be a safe label for re-election! He never was much of a Democrat on major issues, anyway.

The US needs more parties than Israel to adequately cover the range of positions.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Demopcratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 02:41 PM

I agree with LH. A pox on both their houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Demopcratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 02:41 PM

On the other hand, the Republicans are in big trouble, also. They can't survive what the teabaggers are doing to their party.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Demopcratic Party?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 02:54 PM

Ain't no more big tent parties... Ya' have the Dems with purdy much a progressive base and then you have the Repubs with a Tea Bagger/Birther base... The rest are middle'uns... But what we have seen in recent years is the Dems at election time being able to come off as more moderate while the Repubs more and more extreme... This bodes well for Dems in future elections but in all reality the Democratic Party is purdy much what Will Rogers said about it: "I don't belong to any organized political party. I'm a Democrat"... Some things never change...

As for William Dailey??? If loosing only one Southern Dem representative after the recent and historic fight in Congress over health care reform is the final toll then I'd say the Dems withstood it fairly well... I would have thought more like a dozen...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Demopcratic Party?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 03:17 PM

I hope someday to see the emphasis on what can be done - by either party and by ANYONE - for the people and EARTH on which they live instead of worrying about and concentrating on which party is in power.

I'm not a registered Democrat but I'm much more in sympathy with their aims and their methods than I am with those of the Republican party; I suspect that is true of a great many Americans. Therefore, I don't think for a minute that the Democratic Party is in immimint danger of dying.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Demopcratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 03:19 PM

Parker Griffith's not likely to survive a primary challenge from the teabaggers. He's probably toast.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Demopcratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 03:27 PM

Daley's full of shit, though, on the subject of the Democrats favoring the left wing of the party. If they were doing that, we would have single payer not for profit health care right now. If they had been favoring the moderates in the party, we would have at the very least, a public option. We don't have either of these, and we're not likely to get either of them, because the Democrats have been favoring the right wing of the Democratic party, which prefers a market based approach to health care reform, and that is probably what we will get.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Demopcratic Party?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 04:21 PM

"A pox on both their houses."

At least we agree on one thing.

They create Straw men to blame things on and claim if you vote for them they will beat the shit out of that straw man.

This frigging campaign contributions crap has to stop.

Give each candidate an equal amount of money to campaign with and have no second or third party ads.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Demopcratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 04:33 PM

Give each candidate an equal amount of money to campaign with and have no second or third party ads.

I totally agree with this.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:11 PM

Hey...there's one I will agree to! And not a huge amount of money, just have more 'equal time' interviews.

I am so tired of negative campaigning, I could scream. Tell us what YOU are good for, not stupid rumors and hateful remarks about the other side.

(what? You say I'll ruin the economy if I eliminate nasty ads? It might be worth it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:33 PM

Come on Carol, what's happened to all the enthusiasm for Mr Obama,
Didn't I say he was just another Blair?

Hawk's right, Obama only has the amount of rope that his masters decide he should have.
Its all about retaining power.....nothing to do with change

"Change" has to be fought for, and no party hack is gonna bring it about.....either in the US or the UK.

Mrs Palin looks like she has enough guts....and balls to stand up to her masters, if she can take the people with her. Before we sort out the details, there's a job to be done dismantling the mess both parties have created.
Were all sick of political weasels who talk the talk...what about a bit of action!

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:04 PM

"have no second or third party ads" What does that mean?

Mrs. Palin? Surely you jest.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:12 PM

Don't underestimate the power of a woman....Remember Eva Peron!
To demolish a monolith like US corporate power everyone must be encouraged to push in the same direction.

Do you think Mr Obama would ever have made a Fidel or a Che?

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM

Both parties could die and I could care less...there is little difference between them.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:17 PM

akenaton, I was never an Obama supporter. I have always been a Kucinich supporter. But I was convinced that it was in my best interests to work hard to get Obama elected over McCain or Clinton. And I still think I was right about that. Obama may be another Blair, but I think McCain would have been another Bush, and Clinton would have been another Clinton. I like Obama better.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:20 PM

Palin won't stand up to her masters. She's totally in bed with them. It's what makes her tick. And the really scary part is that her masters are the Dominionist Christians who want to eliminate the government and put the churches in charge (along with the corporations, that is).

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:27 PM

I agree with you up to a point Carol.....but Kucinich will never be a populist...his message, though a good one, will always have limited appeal.....thats for the future, let's get people all pushing together first; and that doesnt necessarily mean pushing in the way we would naturally want to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:39 PM

Sorry I missed your second post Carol.
Power is a funny thing it can change people....when Ms Sarah begins to realise what her power actually is, she will learn that she needs the people more than they need her.
Just Like Fidel, Eva, Hugo Chavez.....to destroy the system, first you need a populist......it may not be Mrs Palin and it may not be now.....but you can be sure that one day it will be someone very very like her.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 07:23 PM

No she won't. She is not an altruistic person. She cares only for herself.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 07:27 PM

...and because of that, she will only help those who can help her rise to power. Because that's what it's all about with her. Raw power.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 07:29 PM

"She cares only for herself. "


One should prefix statements like this with "In my opinion," since you have no serious knowledge of the person you are speaking of.


But I guess to one whose opinions ARE always "fact" regardless of reality, it is to be expected.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 07:33 PM

Palin does not possess the intellectual capacity to keep her own positions clear in her own head so I think it's a bit much to ask her to learn her master's positions short of bumper sticker responses...

As for public financing of elections that Sawz proposes... I also agree...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 07:35 PM

I have all the serious knowledge of her I need. She has been prominent on the world stage for more than a year. She has shown her stripes very clearly during that time.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 07:43 PM

As usual, tempest in a teapot.   The war issue and the economy will determine which party wins in 2012.   And depending on these two factors, it will be either President Obama and the Democrats or some Republican (Palin now in the lead) and some other Republicans. And it makes precisely zero difference how much any Mudcatters may despise one or the other of the dramatis personae.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 08:16 PM

Well, actually, it does matter, Ron. Some Mudcatters get to vote in 2012.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 09:37 PM

Palin is hot only in bed with her masters she doesn't even realize there is anyone else there with her. Does drill, baby, drill! mean anything to you? She comes from the school of 'Man was given dominion over all the earth; she sees no need to worry about what Man is doing TO the earth- in her view God will take care of any excesses.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 05:19 AM

I think you all miss my point......Ron is probably right, in the next elections, UK and US we will all be fighting one another just as we do here, instead of fighting our common enemy, Party politicians.

The ability of intelligent people to fool themselves never ceases to amaze me, one would think by now the penny would have dropped that Dems, Pubs, Labour,Conservative all have one raison d'etre ....to ensure there own power and survival; and that involves protecting the system at all costs.

That is all too obvious in the current financial crisis and the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan....even looking back to the horrendous conflicts to stop the spread of an alternative system.

Currently our Parties are prepared to spend trillions of £'s and $'s of your money, propping up a discredited financial system and by extension themselves
They are also prepared to keep sending thousands of young men to their deaths to avenge an attack that they themselves precipitated.

We need a personality to unite our peoples..to eliminate the grubby self serving politicians(no matter how smooth the weasel words may sound)......and it doesn't matter a flying fuck whether that personality is perceived to be "left" or "right", they will change as the people change...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 05:46 AM

Our common "enemy" (don't much care for that word, myself), is the corporatocracy. The party politicians are just tools of the corporatocracy. Palin won't unite anyone to fight the corporatocracy, since those are the people, along with the dominionist Church, for whom she is working. She won't ever stand up to them because she is not at cross purposes with them. As long as they can help her with her primary agenda, the accumulation of power, she will do whatever they want her to do. As long as the corporatocracy sees her as someone who can help them brainwash people into supporting agendas that are contrary to their own best interests, they will help her with her rise to power. Sarah Palin will not do what you are saying needs to be done. She will do exactly the opposite of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:00 AM

""Mrs Palin looks like she has enough guts....and balls to stand up to her masters, if she can take the people with her.

AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!

Take the people with her?...WHAT WITH? The business end of a fifty calibre machine gun?

The US would be much safer if she sticks to harrassing deer with her trusty 30/06.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:33 AM

Carol...I didn't mean it had to be Ms Sarah, but who ever it is will need charisma, and that Sarah has in spades.
Some think Obama charismatic, but like Kucinich his appeal is limited, a creature of the system a career politician and it shows.
He appeals mainly to the "chattering classes"....yes that's us, still floundering in the political quagmire.

We have got to make a real attempt to unstick the labels the politicians have pasted on our psyche.....just like the ones they paste on the road signs.

We need some one who resonates with the poor and "un-educated", yet embodies all thats good about "right wing" thinking like personal responsibility and freedom of speech thought and action.

The intellectuals?........Madame Guillotine!!.......:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:47 AM

The person you have described who you say we need to lead us would also have to be immune to being bought. Such a person does not currently exist in politics at the national level in the US today, with the exception of Kucinich (and Ron Paul, who is also a dominionist, and therefore not the person you have in mind). Some of the younger people just entering politics now who served in Iraq (and now oppose that war) look very promising to me. I think they are worth watching.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 07:36 AM

Interesting Carol, I'll try to get some info.

My very best wishes for a happy holiday to yourself and Jack....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 07:40 AM

PS...How do YOU fancy being the new Eva?   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:54 AM

""We need some one who resonates with the poor and "un-educated", yet embodies all thats good about "right wing" thinking like personal responsibility and freedom of speech thought and action.

The intellectuals?........Madame Guillotine!!.......:0)""

Now where have I heard that suggestion before.

Ah YES.

Hello Pol Pot, we all thought you were dead.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:59 AM

Just remember Nehamiah Scudder....

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 12:16 PM

Dont make jokes about Pol Pot......you may just have been given a glimpse of the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 12:25 PM

The two problems which inflict us at the moment "democracy" and global warming could appear similar, in that, for a short period(in real time) the cure may seem worse than the disease....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:01 PM

The biggest problem for the Democratic Party is the Extreme Center.

Didn't know Carol that Paul was a Dominionist. A Darby follower?   Does he have
ties to "The Family"? Some of his earlier posts in his magazine were blatantly racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 07:01 PM

""Dont make jokes about Pol Pot......you may just have been given a glimpse of the future.""

You are the one who shares his loathing of intellectuals, and his desire to annihilate them Ake, if your post on the subject is any indication.

Many people hate and fear that which makes them feel inferior. Pol Pot felt inferior to anyone who carried a fountain pen, which was his definition of an intellectual, and it cost thousands of lives.

I hope you are setting your sights just a little higher than that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 07:54 PM

A view from rightside: Obama blew it through being too generous to his opponents. They jumped at the chance offered, and he probably hasn't gott a way back from here. He's perhaps better than Blair, but still in thrall to the dark side.

Palin does not possess the intellectual capacity to keep her own positions clear in her own head

It's a comment on American society that such a nonentity could be considered. But we've got Simon Cowell so we can't boast.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 07:57 PM

The problem with Palin, Ake, is the same problem we had with Bush... A definate lack of intellectual curiousity... Another way to put it is she's a friggin' retard...

Bush went to war for purely emotional reasons... Palin would do the same... Shoot first and don't even bother askin' questions later because you won't undertsand the answers...

Stand up to her masters??? Have you read the Washington Post op-ed that she supposedly wrote??? She no more wrote that op-ed than I am Abraham Lincoln... I mean, lets get real here... The Sarah Palin we saw in the Katie Currick interview is the real one...

"What newspapers do you read?"

"What's a newspaper?"

I mean, let's get real here, Ake, ol' son... You want two more wars??? That would be what you wouold get when Palin told the Generals at the Pentagon to shut up while she dialed up a couple shock 'n awes to entertain the rednecks back in "Laska"... Sho nuff would...

Talk about the death of a party??? She would be the death of civilization as we know it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 12:29 AM

PS...How do YOU fancy being the new Eva?   :0)

I think I'm too wonky to ever be a charismatic populist, akenaton. ;-)


Stringsinger, I don't know if Paul's dominionism is as a part of any dominionist organizations, but his philosophy is dominionist. He also wants to get rid of government and have the churches run everything. He discussed it in something he wrote for Christmas a few years ago. I've posted links to it a few times here in the Mudcat (although I don't know where - a search on "Ron Paul" here in the Mudcat might turn one of them up).

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:57 AM

Well....you're popular with me Carol!!

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 06:20 AM

Anyway my real point is that there's no EASY or painless way to effect REAL change.....anyone who thinks there is, is kidding themselves.

Encouraging people to dedicate their lives to work in the pursuit of some never never land in the future is likely to be treated as a joke.....thats been tried and failed.
People want a life of their own, a little happiness and freedom.....thats where all the 'isms of the left break down.

First get someone with universal appeal to lead.....not an intellectual.....If your man or woman is true, the people will mould and change them.....carry them as an inspiration to all.

Why do you think Fidel has lasted so long in Cuba?

One thing is cetain, "democracy" is only a word and a word that has been used to justify more death and persecution than any other.....it just doesn't work, and we have been manipulated into believing it can provide freedom and happiness for too long.

"Democracy" encourages us to strive for ever "better" living standards, when we all know these standards are unsustainable.
We must go back to the old non- consumerist ways of achieving happiness and true freedom will follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 11:12 AM

akenaton, I understand what you're saying, but I see a problem with your model. What happens when both Fidel and his brother are gone? Since the movement is largely driven by the strength of Fidel's personality (with the help of his brother), once they're gone, unless there is someone waiting in the wings who is just as true, they could end up with someone who will sell them out to the same gangsters they got rid of when they had their revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 12:50 PM

"not an intellectual" to lead us?   How progressive. China did that.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 01:54 PM

Yes Carol. but Fidel has had a long hard battle, the forces of reaction were strong, "democracy" and Capitalism were strong while the West and to some degree the East were free to exploit other nations....It is truly amazing how the charisma and good embodied in one man, has fought and so far defeated the forces of greed and evil....and the battleground has been the minds of his people

The future will be very different in that many changes will be forced upon us through necessity....we will no longer be able to hold up our consumerist society and ever improving standard of living, as a candle to burn the wings of truth and real freedom.

In short, there will be no alternative but for our society, after a period of upheaval, to evolve into an amalgam of small local government bodies quite unlike anything we have seen for hundreds of years
Any take over by forces of reaction would involve a timescale so long term as to be useless. Soon asking people to return to Capitalist "democracy" would be like asking released prisoner to return to the penitentiary.

The biggest problem is as I said,the cure may be perceived as worse than the disease for a generation.....but in truth we have no option.

Subject: RE: BS: Death of the Democratic Party?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 01:57 PM

I think we probably have options that you have not yet envisioned, akenaton.