BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 09:45 AM

And here's someone - hard though it may be to believe - who is even more of an absolute asshole and moron than ShitWringer:

North Carolina state Sen. Bob Rucho took to Twitter on Sunday, saying Obamacare or the Affordable Care act has done more damage to the US than the "swords of the Nazis, Soviets & terrorists combined."

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 10:22 AM

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

IE: The Big Lie (German: Große Lüge) is a propaganda technique. The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, about the use of a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously." Hitler asserted the technique was used by Jews to unfairly blame Germany's loss in World War I on German Army officer Erich Ludendorff.


His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

Today's "enemy" of the One Percenters is our duly elected President. The 1%ers have the attitude that "What's mine's mine and what's your is negotiable." And they have the money to keep throwing out the big lies for the gullible to swallow.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 10:25 PM

Good post, sciencegeek!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:35 PM

"Good post, sciencegeek!

GfS "

lol Comprehension is not your strong suit, is it!

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:48 PM

Speaking for yourself???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:02 PM

Maybe I should have added that I've always considered Rush L. to be an overweight version of Goebbels - spewing the same kind of venomous krap - just slightly different targets.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 05:03 PM

Maybe it takes two sides, to foment a heated argument, for the distraction!!...and Boy!, are we distracted!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 06:23 PM

You, maybe. But not everyone.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 10:15 PM

Whenever you decide to change the dialogue, to what is really going on, and stop with the pom-poms for something that even your common sense knows is no good....then maybe you can start to get over YOUR distraction...and take a stroll into 'reality'!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 12:04 AM

Whenever you decide to stick to the subject and not turn every thread into a chance for you to slag me.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 04:19 AM

Whenever you decide to stick to the subject and not turn every thread into a chance for you to not talk about YOURSELF...and how much you THINK you know!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:09 AM

"Whenever you decide to stick to the subject and not turn every thread into a chance for you to not talk about YOURSELF...and how much you THINK you know!"

Apart from lousy grammar and a penchant for looking down your nose at the rest of the human race, what have you ever contributed to the discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 09:10 AM

"Whenever you decide to stick to the subject and not turn every thread into a chance for you to not talk about YOURSELF...and how much you THINK you know!"

Apart from lousy grammar and a penchant for looking down your nose at the rest of the human race, what have you ever contributed to the discussion?

welllll... to hark back to the Big Lie propaganda tatics:
never allow the public to cool off;
never admit a fault or wrong;
never concede that there may be some good in your enemy;
never leave room for alternatives;
never accept blame;
concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong;
people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one;
and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

that should sum things up nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 10:13 PM

Dear Don,
Sciencegeek has a post for you.....

...and 'Troubadour' should sign in on her normal name.....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 11:03 PM

Obama and Hillary Clinton are both followers of Saul Alinsky. The Big Lie bullet points are a lot like Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, from his book by that name. He preached hatred and divisiveness, came up with the "community organizer" position as a way to divide people, and did other things. Clinton wrote a paper on him while she was at Wellsley (sp?). By their heroes you shall know them.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 11:40 PM

Well, great! Saul Alinsky sounds fine to me! My kind of guy!

He did NOT preach hatred and divisiveness unless you consider advocating standing up for the little guy "preaching hate and divisiveness."

CLICKY.

Read the whole article. Don't just stop at the ad. Scroll past it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 01:38 AM

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 05:37 AM

Firth: "Well, great! Saul Alinsky sounds fine to me! My kind of guy!
He did NOT preach hatred and divisiveness unless you consider advocating standing up for the little guy "preaching hate and divisiveness."

Great!....I guess he'll be standing up for Phil Robertson then!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 11:36 AM

Hurry!..You only have a little time left to 'enroll' in Obamacare!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 01:19 PM

excerpted from Wikipedia

In Rules for Radicals (his final work, published in 1971 one year before his death), Alinsky addressed the 1960s generation of radicals, outlining his views on organizing for mass power. In the opening paragraph Alinsky writes,

What follows is for those who want to change the world from what it is to what they believe it should be. The Prince was written by Machiavelli for the Haves on how to hold power. Rules for Radicals is written for the Have-Nots on how to take it away."[10]

Alinsky did not join political parties. When asked during an interview whether he ever considered becoming a Communist party member, he replied:

Not at any time. I've never joined any organization—not even the ones I've organized myself. I prize my own independence too much. And philosophically, I could never accept any rigid dogma or ideology, whether it's Christianity or Marxism. One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're right.' If you don't have that, if you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated. The greatest crimes in history have been perpetrated by such religious and political and racial fanatics, from the persecutions of the Inquisition on down to Communist purges and Nazi genocide.[4]

As a Jew who grew up with anti-semitism as an accepted fact of life, I suspect that he had no problem relating to social underdogs. And his mission was to achieve greater social equality... so is his "big lie" that democracy belongs to everyone and your "truth" is that it only belongs to those you relate to or approve of?

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 01:53 PM

". . . so is his 'big lie' that democracy belongs to everyone and your 'truth' is that it only belongs to those you relate to or approve of?"

Exactly, sciencegeek!

You can tell as much about someone's political, ethical, and moral sense by what they're against as well as what they're for!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 02:10 PM

Firth, responding to sciencegeek: "". . . so is his 'big lie' that democracy belongs to everyone and your 'truth' is that it only belongs to those you relate to or approve of?"
Exactly, sciencegeek!
You can tell as much about someone's political, ethical, and moral sense by what they're against as well as what they're for!"

So re-posting this is QUITE apropos!

"Big Lie propaganda tactics:
Paul Erlich's 'Population Bomb' and Al Gore's money making hysteria, not to mention Obamacare

never allow the public to cool off;
The phony 'war' of 'Liberalism and Conservatism' that the international banksters are promoting for their own benefit, so they can 'find solutions' for their Machiavellian games...That the general public would never go for...and instead the two 'sides' just point fingers at each other...instead of the origin of the make believe.

never admit a fault or wrong;
The product of ill-informed parrots, both sides, repeating the same lie indoctrination..capitalizing on emotional fears, instead of FACTS!

never concede that there may be some good in your enemy;
Yeah, I know how it feels...and I'm on YOUR side!!
Now who was it that said, "Love your enemies"?...and you hate him too!!

never leave room for alternatives;
Do you mean psychological warfare is working that well that you've become narrow minded?????..What a neat agenda for stupid people!

never accept blame;
'People often try to ennoble those faults that they are too proud and weak to correct'

concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong;
That's what happens when your whole premise is wrong, and you can't keep up with trying to live up to your own double standards!
See above!"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 02:32 PM

I just find it sad that there seems to be such a need to hate in some folks. And I really, really resent it when bullies throw their weight around...

The so called Christian right would crucify Jesus in a heartbeat if he appeared to them today.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 03:37 PM

A careful reading of what Jesus said (red-letter edition of the Bible) make it pretty clear that Jesus was a (fasten your seat-belt, Goofus!) a Liberal.

Contrary to the beliefs held by many of his so-called "followers."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 07:08 PM

SG(I'm shortening your name for me, cuz it's easier to type and faster too! ...sorta like a Gibson SG): "The so called Christian right would crucify Jesus in a heartbeat if he appeared to them today."

So would the 'so-called liberal left'!

Firth: "A careful reading of what Jesus said (red-letter edition of the Bible) make it pretty clear that Jesus was a (fasten your seat-belt, Goofus!) a Liberal."

A MORE careful reading of what Jesus said(red-letter edition of the Bible) makes it pretty clear that Jesus was talking about tapping into something and demonstrated it, (as told by those who chronicled it, and who died for, rather than denying that it was true)..that Jesus was tapping into something ALTOGETHER different, that had nothing to do with insurance company cronies getting government subsidies from exorbitant taxes.......Naw, I think, gathering from what I read, that the same power he was doing his 'Healthcare' with...we could all do.....but we're all controlled by those who sell 'small' thinking....
So, I don't think that that was a very good at spinning what you think Jesus was talking about......but you rarely listen anyway.....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 09:24 PM

Goofball, what the hell are you on about?

(Odious little twit. . . .)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 10:46 PM

Oh No, not again...back to the name calling....OK!..I'm convinced, now that you've explained it so well!

(happens every time their backs are to the wall...as I explained earlier).....(next he'll start with insults and an attempt to discredit every body, except himself)...(and then he'll start in on about himself, and why and how he became 'so wise')...without winning a discussion...(he's into 'winning', more than making sense!).

SG, even Tesla was into tapping into the unseen, for power and energy. You must have come across him, in your science studies(and I'm sure you have)....imagine if there was/is more to all that.....than any of us even imagine....and it's all there in front of us....gosh, could you imagine what could have been if Tesla shared notes with the Native Americans, originally???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 11:04 PM

No, you nitwit. My back is not against the wall. I'm merely flabbergasted at how incredibly dense you can be, going of on a tangent having nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 11:12 PM

Need I repeat??
Look, you're doing exactly what I said you'd do. Not only do you have nothing to counter a salient point of view.........you are getting quite predictable and therefore, boring!

GfS

P.S...Yes, I think I WILL repeat: "
Oh No, not again...back to the name calling....OK!..I'm convinced, now that you've explained it so well!

(happens every time their backs are to the wall...as I explained earlier).....(next he'll start with insults and an attempt to discredit every body, except himself)...(and then he'll start in on about himself, and why and how he became 'so wise')...without winning a discussion...(he's into 'winning', more than making sense!).

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 12:06 AM

WHAT "salient point of view?"

If you are so bloody smart, Goofball, state it one more time in plain, readable English.

And what does Nikola Tesla have to do with the subject at hand?

Speak, O mighty oracle.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 04:34 AM

I strongly suggest you back up a few posts, and refresh yourself, as to what we're talking about...this time. take it in. instead of scanning quickly to see if there is anything in them about you...so you can make one of your snappy name calls.
I didn't think you were THAT cognizantly impaired.....but hell, ya' never know..........

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 08:31 AM

personal attacks are a tactic to divert attention from the real issue at hand... get your opponent involved in a name calling or other pissing match. that is NOT how the scientific method works... you present your argument and the data you have collected - ALL the data, not just a few cherry-picked points that you hope will support your predrawn conclusion. Then others are free to try to replicate your results and see if they do in fact support your premise.

As for Tesla, he was a brilliant man who developed a number of inventions - mainly dealing with electricity and had wide ranging interests. He also had a long standing feud with his former employer - Thomas Edison. Were he alive today, he would be quite chagrined that his opposition to Einstein's Theory of Relativity proved to be incorrect.

However, I fail to see what the relationship is to be found between Tesla - who hated doctors and refused any and all medical treatment, even after a serious auto accident- has to do with the Affordable Care Act and what needs to be done to improve it so that ALL Americans can have access to medical treatment and preventive health care.

It must hark back to the Big Lie propaganda tactics:
never allow the public to cool off;
never admit a fault or wrong;
never concede that there may be some good in your enemy;
never leave room for alternatives;
never accept blame;
concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong;
people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one;
and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

I think "never allow the public time to cool off" is the one we have here... by using insults & slurs. I keep telling Don that this is an itch best left unscratched.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 12:48 PM

Actually, what sometimes considered a slur, is just a practical suggestion....as in my last post, before yours.
Don has a way, about twisting things that were never said and flying off the handle, as if the person he is talking with actually even said it. This has been called to his attention numerous times by different posters.

SG: "However, I fail to see what the relationship is to be found between Tesla - who hated doctors and refused any and all medical treatment, even after a serious auto accident- has to do with the Affordable Care Act and what needs to be done to improve it so that ALL Americans can have access to medical treatment and preventive health care."

I'd be curious to find out why?

The ACA in its present form should be scrapped. Insurance companies, Big Pharma, and the medical INDUSTRY, have become a corrupt monopoly without much oversight...and that includes much help from the FDA. That being said, a single payer does have an appeal...but MUST be free from political/governmental considerations as to who gets medical treatment and who doesn't. That should be left up to the Patient/doctor/family relationship. Frauds should be heavily dealt with....and that included doctors acting as pushers for Big Pharma.
Also, the billing structure is all screwed up...once the doctor prescribes a medicine, there seems to be a 'sliding scale' for the costs. Just because the Govt. is going to pay the tab for a prescription, doesn't mean that they should be gouged...and that is going on. If you pay cash for a doctor's visit, often the cost is as much as a co-pay, even without insurance...making the insurance completely meaningless...other than to inflate the costs. If insurance companies are covering it, the cost of the actual visit and prescript is artificially inflated...just for the paperwork for the middleman, with overhead to included profits for various levels of the insurance companies, including stock holders etc etc. Obamacare's operating costs seem to inflate those numbers even higher, AND the cash deductibles have shot up even further unproportionately.
Earlier on this thread, a poster , 'Nobody in Particular' came up with something that I hadn't thought of before....so I'll re-phrase it, to what I thought 'NiP' meant...Single payer for catastrophic, and another tier for 'elective' coverage, on an individual level. I thought that idea would have merit.
Medicine, and saving lives should NOT be a 'for profit' enterprise.
Obamacare and it's structure is set up more for control and profit than it is for healing. The way that it is set up, it is set up to fail..then going to 'single payer' by default. If more thought was put into it, focusing more on the health and healing aspects, rather than political and profits, it might have been received with considerably more enthusiasm than this present botched blight has been.
When this thing came up before, and because of the controversy surrounding it.....AND...the way it was passed, with nobody reading it, only going by what they were told, (and along party lines), behind closed doors, with negotiated waivers for votes...well, I thought I just read it myself....which I did..with the help of an attorney friend. I was posting on here while I was reading it, and of course, several 'Catters kept asking me about it....First of all, it is a convoluted clusterfuck.....actually, I've never had to put a description on it before...'convoluted clusterfuck' is just about perfect!..It is set up with administrative 'tricks', and loopholes that are nooses...(but only if one can untangle the convolutions to employ them.....and mind you, this was the second draft...the first one, if you remember couldn't get enough votes to pass even in a Democrat held Congress!!..The first one was even worse, for the public...(it even had a provision for micro-chipping the people)...which I think they are still trying to get to, visa vi, the website debacle, and security issues...but that's another story...

Oh well, enough....(but you asked)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 02:05 PM

First: at no time did I ever indicate that the AFC was perfect... in fact both Don & I have indicated that it is quite flawed - since it is mainly a rehashing of the Republican Romneycare formula.

Second: flawed as it is... it is a first step of many needed to achieve a good, fair and equitable system of providing health care to all Americans. Scrap only the parts that don't work and replace them with practices that do.

Third: recognize and acknowledge some of the good things that have come from the AFC. When I was 18 and a freshman in college I was no longer eligible to be on my parent's policy. Healthcare was what I could get from the campus health center... but being in good health I got by. Now I would be covered until age 26.

And what about my friends who have epilepsy? They now have access to policies that had been denied them for decades.

And preventive care... what is really health care, not the treatment of illness. There is a list of vaccines that are now covered that weren't before. The system is still messed up, but it is better than what we had before. Remember... the profit in healthcare comes from OUR pockets... lets find ways to keep that money in our pockets not theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 02:06 PM

You're absolutely right, Sciencegeek. Goofus is not interested in actually discussing the subject at hand, he just wants to puff up his sick little ego by attacking others. His posts contain no worthwhile information. Much misinformation, in fact—so trying to respond to them in a reasonable manner is futile. As I said, he not only moves the goal posts, he moves the whole damned field, buries a question or claims he has asked you a question and says that you are dodging the issue. All manner of tactics that would get him disqualified in a formal, judged debate.

So from here on, I shall apply to Goofballupagus the same advice that Dante gives regarding the inhabitants of the lowest level of Hades:   "Glance at them once, then pass on and think no more about them."

So—Goofball. Mount your horse and ride off into the sunset.

NO, Goofball, when is said "mount your horse," I didn't mean "mount" that way! I meant climb into the saddle!

Hmm! That's more like it. But I didn't know that you prefer to ride side-saddle—!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 02:10 PM

Cross posted.

But excellent post just above, Sciencegeek.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 06:56 PM

Well we've moved up to the next part: "(next he'll start with insults and an attempt to discredit every body, except himself)..."

jeez, even in order

P.S...Yes, I think I WILL repeat: "
Oh No, not again...back to the name calling....OK!..I'm convinced, now that you've explained it so well!

(happens every time their backs are to the wall...as I explained earlier).....(next he'll start with insults and an attempt to discredit every body, except himself)...(and then he'll start in on about himself, and why and how he became 'so wise')...without winning a discussion...(he's into 'winning', more than making sense!).

Hey SG, Romney care is just as fucked up, except maybe their website. I've heard feedback from those in Mass...and they're not to swift on it either!
One thing people(especially 'wannabe activists') should keep in mind, was reflected in the Gallup Poll I posted.....72% of the people, including 56% 0f Democrats think the biggest threat to our country is BIG GOVERNMENT...and Obamacare is doing NOTHING to reverse that! People DON'T want to have their minds sucked into another intrusive dealings with the government. It infringes on their natural humanity..just exactly like the 'Holy Roman Empire' from which caused them to flee and settle on another fucking continent, to get away from!...It is exactly the oppression from such a monster that gave birth to people like John Locke, who in his discourses was heavily influenced by a resistance toward it!....So everybody runs away, starts another one, only to go through the whole process AGAIN...and to remedy it, THEY 'PROGRESS' to instituting the very thing they ran away from!!!
Like I posted before, today's liberals are tomorrow's conservatives.
It's all a bunch of hooey! A society that isn't burdened with authority of either a burdensome church or state becomes FREE to innovate, create, and prosper..WITHOUT some corrupt governing force trying to rip them off and exploit their fears....and profit from their corruption...while instituting more oppression, for more profits.
Healthcare 'reform' this is not...just a transfer of the profits and control..while coercing the public under penalty of law, to plunge FURTHER into the problems they already had...and charge more money for it.
Scrap it..start from scratch...keep the 'profits' in the Health care system for research and development, ONLY!....not for another skimming and fleecing of the public for any other government agendas(like looting social security finance pool)...or political paybacks.
The biggest problem for pushing any more government incompetence and trying to sell it to the public, is that the people don't trust these guys..and for good reason.....
....and really, don't you want to be able to trust that your doctor only has YOUR well-being on his mind????....instead of 'political considerations'????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 13 - 07:43 PM

Apart from the generally poor grammar, Goofup's above post could have been written by Ayn Rand.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Elmore
Date: 22 Dec 13 - 09:58 PM

Two Irishmen walk out of a bar. ......... Could happen.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:46 AM

Firth: "Apart from the generally poor grammar, Goofup's above post could have been written by Ayn Rand."

Yap, yap yap, yap yap yap yap...yap yap yap yap....radda cradda, and blauzoo goof goof..

Sg, I got something for you to look at objectively...like science..I think once you step back, it might be eye opening.....

I have maintained that the corruption in Washington has pushed agendas forward, that while seeming to appeal to one party or the other, has steered the public dialog to conceal their true motives, for recruiting party support, and to get those numbers to grow. The message is given to party bosses to be filtered down to the party member...This is done by BOTH parties, with the utilization of the media...and because of it, neither party stands for what they thought it once stood for.....(bear with me)...It's easy to see that the Republicans, while talking 'noble patriotism' in the dialogues, they have a track record of running up unfunded, MASSIVE debt, example: during the Iraq War. We all know it, both 'Frontline' and PBS did great documentaries covering it....OK..so that's easy to see...because it's the 'other party'
...on the other hand, the Democrats have been accused of expanding government programs, regulations and taxes, which gives government too much control over people's personal lives... (if you don't believe me, ask a Republican/'so-called Conservative')...
....it wasn't that long ago, that it was the Democrat based 'conception' that the government was involved in all sorts of covert, corrupt control games, here and abroad...all one has to do is remember how many times we saw this: "Amerika", from groups, bumper stickers, protest signs, publications, etc etc., usually from the 'far left'.....and what they saw, and how they called it, for some part had its merit...can we agree this far?
We all knew and feared that the country was moving to the 'right'....right into Fascism....

.....(now stay objective)....

..and as I was saying..."I have maintained that the corruption in Washington has pushed agendas forward, that while seeming to appeal to one party or the other, has steered the public dialog to conceal their true motives, for recruiting party support, and to get those numbers to grow. This is done by BOTH parties, with the utilization of the media...and because of it, NEITHER party stands for what they(the people) thought it once stood for....."

So, from the Democratic Party's (liberal)point of view, the last thing they want is a Fascist government...'liberals' don't like the TEA Party, and think that they are moving into that mindset...and can't even see it.....

Assuming that the Democrats, don't like being ANYTHING NEAR that point of view...don't like the Fascist tactics, control, government or anything about them ...etc etc....
...while I've maintained that BOTH parties are being manipulated into becoming something they would have NEVER elected to be..in fact, the very OPPOSITE of what the people THOUGHT they stood for...

Now you are probably thinking, "What does this have to do with me? I'm not an admirer of Fascism, I'm a liberal, and we liberals have nothing to do with Fascism."

BUT.................................

You DID post THIS:

"..The Big Lie (German: Große Lüge) is a propaganda technique. The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, about the use of a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously." Hitler asserted the technique was used by Jews to unfairly blame Germany's loss in World War I on German Army officer Erich Ludendorff.
His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it."

...and I did answer a response you you....

....AND........noting this part: "people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it."

You keep posting it over and over....and in your pursuit of diminishing returns...YOU are the one employing Fascistic tactics.

Oh my!....Did something happen to you, that you didn't notice????

...and science is the observing, and collecting the attributes...by the impartial observer.....

As I opened with: "Sg, I got something for you to look at objectively...like science..I think once you step back, it might be eye opening....."

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 10:22 AM

LOL... everyone is a "layman" outside of their area(s) of study... but scientific method is a "universal" tool for investigation of fact. Which should explain why we have so many different fields of study that just happen to end with the term, "ology". Of course, there have been those who slap the term onto some piss poor BS (scientology comes to mind - created by an SF writer who decided that scams pay better than writing) and provide confusion to those who do not appreciate the concept of "peer review". While those peers may differ in opinions about a premise, they all agree about what constitutes scientific method.

As for my use of the Big Lie list... I will use it whenever it seems appropriate, just I would shout out "the emperor has no clothes", should the occasion arise.

The reason for this thread was to discredit the American President and the first enacted effort to provide reasonalbe healthcare options to everyone in our country. The Law is flawed and needs much work to remove the partisan componants that preserve the healthcare industry to "milk" the public of every dime it can...

To take a quote from my youth... "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.".

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 12:44 PM

You don't even know who Ayn Rand was and what she advocated, do you, Goofball?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 01:17 PM

Ann Rand... born in Czarist Russia of Jewish parents and lived there until she arrived in New York in early 1926. She was a playright, screenwriter & novelist... with no training in economics or politcal theory. Given her background, it is no wonder she was quite anti-communist.

Per her Wiki account: Although Rand maintained that Objectivism was an integrated philosophical system, philosopher Robert H. Bass has argued that her central ethical ideas are inconsistent and contradictory to her central political ideas.

hmmmm... seems to have more in common with L Ron Hubbard than I knew.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 01:36 PM

SG: "The reason for this thread was to discredit the American President and the first enacted effort to provide reasonalbe healthcare options to everyone in our country. The Law is flawed and needs much work to remove the partisan componants that preserve the healthcare industry to "milk" the public of every dime it can..."

I didn't start the thread, so I can't say for certainty WHY it was started...and neither can you.
What discredited the President was the President himself, when he repeatedly lied about it...'REPEATEDLY'..as in, "...people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it."...and now YOU are trying to turn that around, BY THE SAME TACTIC!..I don't think the reason people are NOT signing up is because they read the Mudcat forum, and decided to believe one thread that 'discredits the President'.
...and as far are you and Don acquiescing by saying 'we know it had SOME problems'...well, DUHHHH!!! Less coverage, higher premiums, higher deductibles, people losing their doctors, being forced off policies they liked, hospitals not taking it, doctors leaving their practice, massive deceit, unsecured websites..jeez, what there not to like???..and it's ALL because of this thread...right???

Is that a scientific conclusion??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 01:52 PM

Big Lie propaganda tactics:

never allow the public to cool off;
never admit a fault or wrong;
never concede that there may be some good in your enemy;
never leave room for alternatives;
never accept blame;
concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong;
people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one;
and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

LOL... add distort what has been put forward by others and then condemn the distorted statement.

No... I did not imply that posting to mudcat would have national implications... just that Songwronger's thread was more of the same. I have asked in the past if the wronger ever posted a musically based thread... the answer was maybe once to try & sell an instrument. Why the urge to post on mudcat? beats me... maybe there are post ons other sites as well that I don't frequent. All of which is irrelevent to the point.

What is relevent is that when I see or smell the spray from a cat that is pissing on the furniture, I have a pretty good idea that it is marking its territory because it feels threatened and needs to stake it's claim. What was the particular trigger... may or may not know... but it doesn't take a Nobel laureate to have a pretty good, general idea. That's what naturalists do all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 02:35 PM

SG: "LOL... add distort what has been put forward by others and then condemn the distorted statement."

Hey Don, did you get that?????

SG: "Why the urge to post on mudcat? beats me... "

Well, for me, as I've said before, I use the angst expressed, and use it musically....it is because I'm NOT a political animal that I don't have a 'party biased viewpoint'...also, as previously posted (by moi), "I'm not with the 'party'..I'm with the band!"
Something to be said about a 'party biased viewpoint'....people tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater, because if the 'other party' said it, it must be wrong...and it only gives either side a rather myopic vision or the whole issue...Frankly, I don't trust either party as far as I can throw them....after all, they ARE corrupted by the same people, with their own agenda. Some people are stupid enough to believe them, and the other party are stupid enough NOT to believe anything outside their party's talking point propaganda...and what's REALLY phenomenal, is that party people believe their party's elected 'representatives'(?) are representing the people more than the lobbyist's corrupt agendas. Both parties!!..and the 'news'(?) has become sorta like a 'reality show'...with more interesting script writers. To some, fiction is more entertaining than truth!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 02:55 PM

Well said Sanity.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegee
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:01 PM

"SG: "Why the urge to post on mudcat? beats me... "

Well, for me, as I've said before, I use the angst expressed, and use it musically...."

As the mind boggles.... so this is some new form of rap?

It certainly is not lyrical or alliterative, much less coherent. You might want to investigate a new medium for your message... this one isn't cutting it.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:17 PM

At one time, before I grew a brain, I read all of Ayn Rand's works avidly. What first attracted me to her writings was when I attempted to enroll in the University of Washington's School of Music and frankly said that my musical interests were folk music, and playing classical guitar. I was told that folk music was not a worthwhile study and the classical guitar is not a musical instrument (despite the fact that Burl Ives had sung on campus a few years before and John Williams had played a concert on campus a few months before).

I was finally accepted (through the intervention of a particular music professor), but all the while I was there, I had to defend my interests as being a worthwhile pursuit. I saw my position in the department as similar to that of Ayn Rand's hero, Howard Roark, in her novel, The Fountainhead, in his early struggles with the architecture school.

So I read a great deal of her writings, fiction and nonfiction.

Then—I started examining her writings, and her so-called "philosophy" with a somewhat more critical eye.

Her later writings get downright appalling!!   "Galt's speech" in Atlas Shrugged and most of her non-fiction.

One can get the general thrust of Ayn Rand's "philosopy" (Objectivism) and her ethical stance, which affects her economics and general political view, by looking at the titles of two of her non-fiction books: The Virtue of Selfishness in which, among other things, she maintains that anyone on welfare, or receiving other aid from the government is a "freeloader" and "parasite," and resents the fact that some of her taxes are being spent to aid people who cannot, through no fault of their own, fend for themselves; and Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal, in which she maintains that Capitalism has never been tried, because the government has "burdened" it with regulations and restrictions.

She also hated the environmental movement, saying that "environmentalists should get down on their knees and give thanks to the smokiest smokestack they can find for all the benefits that industrial genius has given to them!"

She considered FDR, whose initiation of regulatory agencies to rein in the excesses of Wall Street that brought about the Great Depression (25% unemployment) in the Thirties and starting the New Deal programs that put people back to work—thus ending the Depression—as the Devil incarnate, And she loved Ronald Reagan, one of her followers, who did everything he could to destroy such things as the Securities and Exchange Commission and other regulatory agencies (much of Reagan's "reforms" are responsible for the present shakiness of our economy).

She would have considered the Affordable Care Act—or ANY government sponsorship of a health care program—as an abomination.

She was also a rabid atheist, although most Conservatives who embrace her writings conveniently ignore this. The Tea Party folks think that she's the bee's knees!

She maintained that the highest virtue was "rational self-interest." She died in 1982 of lung cancer, after being a chain smoker all of her life.

"Rational self-interest?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:35 PM

I believe the term really should be "enlightened self-interest" whereby one recognizes that by improving the lot of others, they will benefit as well.



She did seem to embrace the dark side... rationalizing self-interest is closer to the truth... one step away from divine right... for the haves not the have nots.