Birds on Wires

Subject: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 02:01 PM

I thought that Leonard Cohen had been brilliant to come up with images that I recognized and welcomed but that never would have crossed my feeble mind on it's own. I thought that he was brighter than you and me (especially you.) Now I'm not so sure.

Friday night my options and uncertain plans to possibly see Orillia Folk Society's Erin Benjanin concert were thwarted by radio announcements that highway 400 was closed because of police actions - whatever that meant. Instead I visited two bookstores and listened to Sheila Fung and friends sing with her guitar seriously out of tune at the Newmarket Corner Coffee House. In one of the bookstores I bought Ira B. Nadel's various Positions, A Life of Leonard Cohen.

The beautifully hardcovered book was deeply discounted, maybe remaindered. I'm not sure if defective books are technically remaindered books. Most of Canada will be remaindered soon. The major combatant in Canada's book-wars may have shot himself in the testicles, so to speak. After demanding a 50% discount on book to fill a bunch of big bookstores that he build with stock investors' money, he is returning millions upon millions of dollars worth of books to Canadian publishers.

I read about this in McLean's Magazine between Sheila's sets and then went to one of his Chapter's bookstores and bought a cheap copy of the Cohen book. (Jim had a few magazines at the back of the coffee shop behind the coffee bar.) The clear plastic wrap on the book that I quickly threw in the garbage was folded backwards so the bookstore had marked down the price.

To me, Cohen's bird on the wire was always one of those brilliant images. I don't know about you but I've seen birds on wires. I though nothing much of them. Cohen hit me with that image.

Reading the book, it turns out that Cohen wrote, first for a set number of hours each day, then for a minimum of three pages per day. When it flowed, he wrote many more pages. He bought a house on the Greek Island of Hydra before the island had electricity. When the Greeks put up poles and wires, he noticed that the birds quickly came to the wires.

Although it's still a wonderful image, I think that if you or I had the resolve to write at least three pages a day and someone put up poles and wire while we were staring out the window instead of staring at the blank page, we too might have come up with something interesting. If we just wrote three pages a day wouldn't we come up with wonderful images. Not Cohen's images but interesting ones of our own. I'm a procrastinator though. I just haven't got around to admitting it on that other thread. How about you?

The second image in the song was about drunks leaving the Hydra bars late at night singing harmony. If we'd heard them sing and had better work habits, what would we have written? Something brilliant?

A later section talked about his teeny poem:

Marita Please find me I am almost 30

Another brilliant piece that kept me in awe of Cohen's brain until the book explained. Marita was an attractive brunette from Manitoba who once dismissed Cohen's advances with, "Go on your way young man and come back when you're thirty. "

Many beautiful women have rejected me. If only I'd had the presence of mind to keep notes. Like, there was the time I asked a tall beautiful woman to dance at a tavern on Yonge Street. Being short, bordering on dwarf if you believe that liar Little Hawk, I've been attracted to tall women who might make me feel warm protected. The tall beautiful woman in the tavern laughed in my face and said, "No but I'll dance with your friend." It didn't help that one of my friend's favourite expressions was, "I don't like the one that you're getting." Another time… hey, I better grab a notebook.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 02:11 PM

That'd be your 3 pages for today then huh?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 02:16 PM

Once you start analysing, you're inevitably going to explode myths!

Something like going back to a childhood playground only to find that the developers got there first.

Who cares why someone wrote something that means a lot to us? All that matters is the feeling it generated, which was special at that time, and the time has already passed.

There is a fine line between enjoying one's memories, and living in the past (and I should know...).

I have to admit I'm not a fan of Leonard Cohen, but there are many people who are. As a result, there are bound to be people who will try to discredit his obvious talent, even inadvertently.

All I'm trying to say is that you should stick with your first instinct, and not try to put any construction on what his motives for writing may or may not have been. Be thankful you were a part of it...

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 02:18 PM

Spaw - what's your point?

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 02:32 PM

I'm procrastinating on the three pages spaw. I have work to do that I was avoiding when I wrote that. How about you?

I still enjoy Cohen, Bernard. It's just that now I feel that Bernard would write sone good poems and lyrics if he'd only write three pages a day - especially with those great memories that he has.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 02:37 PM

Bernard......I was just poking a little fun at flattop's tale and the line in it about writing three pages, etc.

And flats......I know I'll get around to it but first I have to develop a plan, and to do that I need to work it in to another plan that I have yet to develop, though I think I may get to it the day after tomorrow or possibly two days after that...if not three.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 02:41 PM

So let's agree to begin next Saturday morning spaw? Three pages a day minimum after that? Anyone else?

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 03:04 PM

It would be interesting to read some of the three pages a day Cohen wrote. I know some writers keep a journal and use that sort of discipline to keep ideas fresh--sounds like a good idea for songwriters as well. Would it be cheating to count some of ones posts to Mudcat in the 3page tally? Seems like a lot of interesting stuff flying around these threads!

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 03:10 PM

I knew that!!?

Any road up, all Mudcatters are capable of three pages a day - check the threads (and I don't mean 'do you like my clothes?'!!).

What would be interesting - a song written using themes from the non-lyric postings...

Ouch! My brain cell hurts!!

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: wildlone
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 03:12 PM

I once worked behind the bar in a pup in Oxfordshire, [The Bull at Nettlebed] one day the owner was away for the evening and he had said that if the bar was empty after 9pm we could shut and go home at 8-50 in walked a couple and sat with their drinks the owners son put Leonard Cohen on the pub piped music system we shut at 9pm.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 03:28 PM

There's a moral in that, somewhere...

Or should I say:

There's immoral in that, somewhere...

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 03:28 PM

I think, for the most part, what most writers come up with is based upon the mundane, it is their perspective upon it, wherein lies the genius.

Some have it and it is truly a gift. Others will still manage, even at three pages a day, to only come up with the mundane. The ability to paint vivd images, that make connections for others, with few words, is one of the few things I truly envy. I don't think I will ever manage to do that, even at double the output and time.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 03:31 PM

Exactly. That's why I leave songwriting to those who can...

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 03:41 PM

Hey! We don't need negative shit on this thread. Writing is scary enough. Both of you have a facility for language and you both write to mudcat. My bet is that if you both write 3 pages a day minimum, in 6 months you'll have a bunch of good things with images and feelings that you will be able to edit into decent works.

A good book to start with is Writing Down the Bones by Natalie Goldberg. Very positive. Good ideas.

If you keep up this negativity I will have to call Praise in when she's finished her sunday church duties to back me up on your underused potential.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 03:46 PM

Ah, now! She's already conned me into co-writing a 'song' with her...

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 03:51 PM

Who? Praise or Natalie Goldberg?

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: sophocleese
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 03:58 PM

Do three pieces of art a day count? I just finished a weekend workshop on collage and three dimensional stuff. OUt of three pictures yesterday and three box pieces I have come up with 1 picture I like and two box assemblages that I like. I'll find out next weeke if I still like them.

The really fascinating thing is putting six women and the artist into the house for six hours. We all have access to the same materials and the same instructions from the artist. We came up with six completely different looking things. Then we are each startled at the way someone else has used something, leaf shaped earrings for feet, small plastic pumpkins for breasts, an old watch wound round a bolt for internal organs etc. Some use colours sparingly and others use them with enthusiasm. I'm happy with what I've done and will now have to clear the work bench downstairs so I can use it whenever I have time.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 04:03 PM

Who? Sugar Dog, of course!

Click!

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 04:16 PM

I was wondering how to get into this thread but now I see I must enter laughing or be counted a liar in heaven.

My head about fell off, laffin. First, MY Sunday duties about 46 weeks out of the year are to sleep in and rest and pray and have ALONE TIME and recover positivity after a week of... that plus other. My church gig is on Saturday night!

Next, just this AM I was thinking that some of the relentless loving encouragement I have slung about ought, if there is a God, to have worked its way out through me and into people who've had a share of it, and then keep on streaming out through them. Then here I see flattop going to it. Out-effing-standingly well, great job, couldn't have done better myself. LOL. Ow. It hurts! PA hills are ringing from it, deer running like mad.

Flatster, dear, what I was thinking is this. What you have written to me in the past was of course interesting, thought-provoking, sometimes just provoking, and occasionally (only) mystifying. But I LIKED it. OK. Now I know you better. What you have written is all that is was, PLUS it is lit up by what I have come to know and see of you. *G*

(There is still no substitute for really getting to know another human being....)

SO. Iddinnit like that with Cohen?

AND, in my own never-humble-enough opinion (NHO??? [Wasn't Humble Enough, WHO???), the trick is to manage the output, not create it. Plenty of output. File management is the key. Recognize a pearl when it comes out the unlikelier orifice, clean it up lovingly, and stow it where it can be brought out later on midnight blue velvet. You oughtta see the harvest I have from e-mail alone. And I think I must eventually publish my remarks from the nazi thread. Just when it all comes together, that's when I'll know what to do with it.

And then there are the several books implied by the stuff I RECEIVE. Anyone wanna write, don't know how, or feel blocked!??? Write me!! I'll get ya going in no time!

So, Flattened One-- and all others-- Write on, baby.

(BTW, to anyone who does write me, 'scuse my sporadic on-and-offlineness-- modem sucks bigtime, and work computer has a few days use left. Gotta take Homegirl here back to the shop.)

~S~

[e-mail]

Folders RULE!!!

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 04:24 PM

B!

More verses! And send them to Aine for the songbook!

Hahaha!!

~S~

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: okthen
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 04:34 PM

I allways thought the origin of bird on a wire was the small birds attached to wires flying 'round and 'round in circles untill someone bought them from the market vendor( S.E.asian markets )and set them free. something along the lines of "if you release a bird from captivity you free a soul from torment/hell"

mind you i could be wrong,

cheers

bill

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 04:40 PM

Ah, you see Metchosin that Praise is on to Bernard and me. Ya better start writing before she get on you case too.

I checked out you writing assignment Bernard. That dog ditty song will count for a page or two when you write it. (If you were Little hawk it might count for six pages since he doesn't like to write a song with fewer than 92 verses.)

Sophocleese, you seem to be suffering serious thread disorder. This thread is about word pictures and word collages not glue-gun-crazed women with pumpkin breasts.

Praise, it's easy to dash off a couple of pages to you when I think it might make you laugh. By the way, you were the only one of the group of four to not admit that you knew half-dead-Ted. Very discrete and saintly!

Writing to mudcat should count as long as it's not the imageless feelingless drivel that we write to threads 90% of the time. Cohen didn't show the pages that he wrote to people. We don't have to show what we write. It's foundational material for our masterpieces.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 04:40 PM

bill you're probably right, and therein lies the genius of the song, not only in the image of the phrase, but on the number of levels of understanding that it works on.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 04:47 PM

Huh, flattop! I know what the topic actually is, that's all!

You tipped me off!

Seriously *G*-- The writing makes me smile, and think, and other lofty stuff. It is getting to know people that makes me laugh, and it is laughter so full of delight there is no other way to express the feeling. Only people seem to be able to make me do that. Real People. People being THEMSELVES. It's... like nothing else.

IT IS WORTH ALL THE ATTENTION ONCE CAN PAY, TO SEE THAT, TO KNOW IT, TO BE IN COMMUNICATIUON WITH IT, AND TO LAUGH LIKE THAT.

Shouting yes, in laffin.

~S~

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 04:49 PM

sorry ypto above-- [ONCE] = [ONE]

sumbuddy fix!

~S~

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 04:51 PM

Praise, bein' a little bird are ye? As are we all.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 04:54 PM

Mets, I couldn't agree more.

And flattop I take offense that the writing I do here is 90% drivel. You aren't around all the time and in many cases have missed posts that I have made on a wide range of subjects. Imposing a limit on the quality of writing makes the task very much less enjoyable and it is through the enjoyment that genius comes. You have made a serious error in describing my stuff as 90% drivel. If you had spent any time in the research of this you would know that its all drivel. I strive to do more than a meager 90% fer chrissakes. If I have ever posted anything of value, please disregard whatever it was since I must have had a fever at the time.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 05:03 PM

All your points are well taken spaw. I eat my words.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 05:51 PM

I'm sure Cohen didn't share all of his writings with the world at large, but it might have been a lesson learned for some of the more reluctant 'pumpkins' here on this thread. How much Drivel did HE write before stumbling over the gems?

Your point about perpective is well taken, Metchosin...there are gifted ones who do these things effortlessly...but surely there are an equal number of writers whose genius had a bit more elbow grease behind it?

Add a bit of discipline, subtract some of the perfectionism that makes us afraid to even begin, and I'm thinking several of the folks I've been reading here would have a bit of that seemingly effortless genius sprouting out before they know it!!

Hey Spaw? You ignore what I wrote...your drivel keeps me in stiches, don't fix it!!

oh...and on a completely irrelevent note (well, I guess it was in the original post to this thread) if it was a slow dance you asked the tall woman in question for flattop, don't take the rejection to heart...being 6'3" myself, I had to learn real quick that there was an uncomfortable level of intimacy to the situation if my first dance with a much shorter fellow called for a close, full frontal embrace...maybe she was just shy?????

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: MK
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 06:32 PM

(thread creep)...I was performed at an elegant cocktail party back when I attending university at Irving Layton's home (well-known Canadian poet, but perhaps not as well-known as Cohen), and Leonard Cohen was there, as well as other artistic notables. One of the guests who'd obviously had too much to drink, wandered over the Cohen who was chatting with Layton (within earshot of me) and interupted the conversation, and said to Cohen "Excuse me Leonard? It's a honour to meet you. I just wanted to tell you I thought you did really great work on Star Trek, and love the way you portrayed Doctor Spock!"

Cohen with a wry smile on his face said, "Why thank you!"

I nearly pissed myself then and there.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 06:36 PM

And you didn't play a few strains of the "Star Trek" theme? Great story MK! LMAO

Spaw

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: MK
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 06:39 PM

True one Spaw. (Good thing Red Adair wasn't at the same party or the same drunk might have walked over the Red and asked him where Ginger was?) *BG*

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 07:54 PM

Thyme2dream, it wasn't effortless for Cohen. He had to work at it. You might want to read Ira B. Nadel's book about his struggles. In Cohen's words, "I've never written easily: most of the time I detest the process…" He credits a woman in England who made him write 3 pages a day for him being able to finish Beautiful Losers. The woman ran a house for artists and told him he could stay if he wrote 3 pages a day. After that he tried to keep the three page minimum habit. He slipped at times but he tried.

I don't know how much drivel he wrote before stumbling over gems but I found that I had to work hard to find gems in Death of a Ladies Man. The gems were terrific but the book was an odd collection. Each piece had an opposing piece also written by Cohen. Often I didn't like either piece. When I found one that I like I don't think that I ever liked the twin piece. However, the book is still great because, when he hits it, he's top drawer. Take the version of It's Probably Spring that starts off, "So and so is sick of all the shit but doesn't feel that bad today because it's probably spring." Wonderful poem!

No, I don't think that I tried to slow dance with the tall woman. For her, I think that it was just that she was closer in height to my friend who was about a foot taller than I was. She wasn't shy. She told me she would dance with my friend. I trust that you wouldn't be so cruel if I asked you to dance.

Spaw, your writing may be closest to Cohens in subject matter and playfulness. I'm not trying to be tough on you. Examples of what I meant by drivel would be messages like the ones I posted to Help: Songs about farm folk. I wouldn't consider them creative writing.

Michael, Layton appears often in this book. I've seen Layton a few times but never Cohen. Both Layton and John Kenneth Galbraith got their undergraduate degrees at the University of Guelph in agriculture I believe. I have never been to Agriculture College but I have fond memories of a visit to the town. Drop dead gorgeous memories.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 07:56 PM

Keep on writing and writing and writing, probably somewhere in the resulting heap there will be stuff that could be good. But the trick is seeing it there, and picking it out and seeing how you can use it.

Listen to people talking in a pub, and somewhere someone's going to say a line you could put in a poem or a song. But noone is going to tell you which line that is.

It's the same if you're doodling away with a musical instrument.

All music uses the same small number of notes.All literature uses the same bunch of letters. It's getting them in the right order that makes the difference.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 08:14 PM

Good one McGrath. That's the spirit and sound ideas. You amaze me sometimes.

Leonard S. Bernstein in his book Getting Published puts it this way:

[Aim to write the story badly. But write it. The ratio of wonderful to dreadful will remain the same but more stories get written without the pressure.

Failure to develop a continuous working schedule is possibly the writer's largest obstacle.]

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: MK
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 08:20 PM

Flattop,
Layton was my English prof, my 1st year at York U.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 08:23 PM

I used to see him at York and down on Bloor West. I was never a student at York, I'm basically uneducated. I worked for Youk and Ryerson libraries when I first got into systems.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: MK
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 08:29 PM

I got to know "Irv" fairly well. He decided straight away I was a smart ass, and took a shine to me. Second or third class he was preaching about the fact that a person could not consider themselves a poet, if no one was reading their works, 50 years after their death. Then we got to question period. I asked him if the same held true about him (being the egomaniac he was), if no one read his works 50 years after he was gone. He had no answer, and went straight to the next question, but asked to see me after class. Went and had a coffee with him and talked about this and that, and he invited me to come play at his cocktail party, which led to the infamous Cohen story I posted earlier on.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 08:48 PM

Make that York and Ryerson Libraries.

Layton was a big fan of Eric Anderson I believe. I never saw Eric either but I bought his records. And once I went to visit a girl who worked at the Riverboat. She was an interesting woman who liked Chekov and music. She like my puppy and seemed gentle and kind. We went a few places together before she invited me to her house. She smelt pretty good when I first met her - at least to a Cape Breton boy who knew a few smelts in his day. The day I went to her house her breath was so bad that I refused to get down on her mattress on the floor. She must have been coming down with an illness.

She though I was nervous because her mattress was upstairs in her parents house. Not likely. To ease my mind she started to tell me about all the Riverboat performers she had slept with. The list of performers was long. Eric Anderson was on her list although we must treat that as hearsay. She may have been just boasting to impress me. Her stories didn't ease my anxiety one bit. I left rather abruptly and never returned.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 09:38 PM

Thanks flattop--"women who might make me feel warm protected"...that was beautiful. It made me cry.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:02 PM

Are you making fun of me Matt? I meant to write warm and protected.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:07 PM

No, I'm not making fun of you. I really meant it. I figured that's what you meant. Anyway, it still made me cry.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:29 PM

Don't cry Matt. She wouldn't dance with me either. Just order another pitcher of beer and pretend that we're happy.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:45 PM

I don't drink beer either...

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:58 PM

Then you must write at least three pages a day.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 11:01 PM

I did 50 on Monday, 10 on Tuesday, and 6 on Friday. Does that count? "The mermaids will not sing for me..."

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: flattop
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 11:09 PM

That's good but the trendline seems to be heading in the wrong direction.

I'm out of here soon. I feel like a thread hog.

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 12:13 AM

Gee, you two are depressing me...you need a hug? (a sidey-ways one, I don't know you that well;-))

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: MK
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 12:27 AM

Flattop, I would have done exactly the same thing in your position. I would imagine her rhyming off her sexual diary to you, would have made you feel very warm, special and unique.



(Were they Keds or PF Fylers?) *G*

Subject: RE: Birds on Wires
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 10:58 AM

Flattop, I think you just need somebody to talk to. Start chatting up small women and let the bookstores and Canadian publishers solve their own problems.