BS: Is the Rapture Underway???

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 11:53 AM

SOrry you are stuck in such an old and tired war, Guestus. I think the ancient doctrine about Caesar and God applies, but it needs to be updated. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's; render unto God what is God's; and label BS clearly. Getting all stirred up because someone wants to push beliefs at you makes you a very poor candidate for Western civ., which generally requires a free and open exchange of beliefs and the ability wo see through and deflect coercion without undue stress.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 11:54 AM

what dangers do you see if biblical christianity were widely accepted

BIBLICAL christianity[sic]?

The end of intelligent life on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 12:12 PM

I keep reading the title of this thread as "Is the Rapture Underwear". I would like it change to "Goning On" instead of "Underway."

Mods please note.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 12:20 PM

".....end of intelligent......."
i expect a more intelligent response from bill,to whom my post was directed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 12:25 PM

Hey, people start universally believing nonsense like the earth is 6000 years old, that's the antithesis of intelligence.

Your call.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 12:27 PM

6,600. Not 6,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 12:40 PM

>>Getting all stirred up because someone wants to push beliefs at you makes you a very poor candidate for Western civ., which generally requires a free and open exchange of beliefs and the ability wo see through and deflect coercion without undue stress.<<

In other words, shut up and take it. Fuck you asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 12:57 PM

Sorry, Rap - mea culpa (that's biblical)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 01:04 PM

some of you, danced all around it..and then proceeded to 're-define' what I said...so let's do it again, and see if the 'brainiacs' can distinguish between what I posted, and some CONCEPT of crap what you THOUGHT I meant, based on you misconceptions!

From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 04:36 AM

Nope nope nope.....That's dumb...this is not a matter or organizing thoughts into some sort of concept, or even thinking of it as 'a religion'....you can't reach the spiritual through constructing a concept of 'righteousness' self, or other wise.....this is different...it hits YOU...on ITS terms..has nothing to do with if you approve or not...different rules, properties and 'physics'. When it happens, you KNOW it...nobody 'talks you into it'..it's actually, too personal to be named!............Just when it happens, pay attention...if it doesn't, try not to hate those who have had it.
Called 'diversity'??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket treating himself for Goofus
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 02:48 PM

Diversity... See pickled quail eggs above.


pete. You have a dig at the likes of me and say "your idea of God." Please for once get this in your skull. Some of us have no idea of God because the concept is not relevant.

Your mistake,which gets many reasonable people angry with you, is refusing to accept that the god concept itself is not shared by many, as there is little logic and no evidence to support it, and as there are so many flavours of God, it makes the whole concept laughable.

If it floats your boat fine, but my mate who thinks the moon landings didn't happen knows to keep it "up there" to avoid people laughing at him. I am not threatened by his stance. Civilisation however is still threatened by the enforced credibility of superstition. Which is different to just believing.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 03:24 PM

Sorry Greg F. -- it's from the Latin Mass (Tridentine Mass) Confiteor:

"Confíteor Deo omnipoténti, beátæ Maríæ semper Vírgini, beáto Michaéli Archángelo, beáto Joanni Baptístæ, sanctis Apóstolis Petro et Paulo, ómnibus Sanctis, et tibi, Pater: quia peccávi nimis cogitatióne, verbo et ópere: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea máxima culpa. Ideo precor beátam Maríam semper Vírginem, beátum Michaélem Archángelum, beátum Joánnem Baptístam, sanctos Apóstolos Petrum et Paulum, omnes Sanctos, et vobis, fratres (et te, Pater), oráre pro me ad Dóminum Deum nostrum."

The prayer was probably composed sometime in the 8th Century and added to the Mass in the 11th. The above is from the 1962 "Roman Missal."

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 05:54 PM

Raparee, Dominus vobiscum! ...Don't you just love talking to people with adamant opinions about stuff they don't have the foggiest idea of what they are talking about!!???
Boy, I could give you a list of them, on here...but instead, "et cum spiritu tuum"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:19 PM

Hmm. Still beating the dead horse around and around the Mulberry Bush, I see...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:23 PM

""et cum spiritu tuum""

If you're going to pretend you are clever, it pays to check your quotations first.

Et cum spiritu tuo.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:25 PM

""I keep reading the title of this thread as "Is the Rapture Underwear".""

I had a different response Rap.

An irresistible urge to ask "What is it supposed to weigh?"

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:31 PM

Sorry Greg F. -- it's from the Latin Mass

Whatever- same fairytale BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 11:19 AM

Explanation:
The responsorial phrase is:
Dominus vobiscum (God be with you)
et cum spiritu tuum (and also with you).
It's said at mass.

it is said both ways..in case you didn't know that..check bottom of page However, the most said response is with 'Spirituo'

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 12:37 PM

Well Pete...brief explanation:

It is not the matter of general "Christianity" being accepted, because of course, it is. I know many people who are believers in many different branches... from Catholics to Episcopalians to Mormons to Quakers. I do not know personally in my circle of friend or acquaintances, anyone who takes quite such a literal view as you... and the group you say 'educated' you.

To repeat part of my last post:
"The reason so many...even myself... dispute your stance is that your current 'belief' refuses to treat new discoveries in science as useful unless you can make them fit your interpretation of one scripture among many."

It is one thing to make your basic belief that there must be some sort of Creative Force, and that there is some sort of Eternal Spiritual Principle 'out there' ...somehow. It is quite another to be sure that the details of *IT* and its opinions are clearly, accurately and universally quoted, clarified and binding on all mankind!

It is also a common thing to accept 'some' historical truth to the collection of texts called "the Bible". After all, known historical figures are mentioned. We know when King Herod lived. So... it 'may' be that there were actual historical persons behind the stories of Moses, Noah...and yes, Jesus. There are few records except the Bible to compare notes on.

My difficulty with your group's message is with a limited view of scientific data and refusal to deal with the discoveries OF science if they 'seem' to disagree with biblical dating and references.
We have gone thru this several times in a couple of years. IF the precise view you hold were held by everyone...or even "widely held", it would

1)seriously restrict science from making its discoveries coherent.
and
2)would cause enormous changes in how school textbooks were written and affect the very language of logic and the law.
(it would take hours to give detailed explanations of this)

You say you wish to "share" your faith. In practice, many who hold your view wish to 'establish' it and embed it in the very laws and fabric of society. I think that much of this attitude comes from Matthew 4:19..."And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men."
It sort of exhorts believers to "testify & convert" others... no matter what they believed...or did not believe before.
In my view, any 'god' who wished his 'word' to be known to all men would not have entrusted the details to a few folk like Moses & Jesus over 2000 years ago.

Let me put it a bit stronger: to those who have a different 'belief'(Muslims, Buddhists, Quakers, Jains, etc...).. or NO belief, it is more or less and insult to be told that they 'should' give up their way of thinking. As I have mentioned before, I have had both Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door and try to 'explain' to me why their details were better... and their details don't agree with each other!

Once more: An open mind requires one to follow data and reasoning wherever they lead, and NOT reject knowledge that fails to conform to one interpretation of one translation of one collection of writings from one area.

Does the seven stars pub have a dart board? In darts, the object is to try to make certain scores using various tactics. What would you think if someone just placed darts on a blank wall, then drew a target around them? That is a metaphor for what those in your narrow belief system seem to be doing.

I really do not wish for my science, my morals and my logic to have to conform to such a system.... and MOST belief systems, even in basic Christianity, agree with me.

   There IS room to retain a basic belief in a god, a creator and a moral character without limiting one's views so drastically.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 12:42 PM

""it is said both ways..in case you didn't know that..check bottom of page However, the most said response is with 'Spirituo'""

Once again you expose your ignorance in takng one comment from a distinctly non authoritative source and your arrogance and laziness in assuming that no further inquiry is necessary, as you know it all.

Try this: Google "et cum spiritu tuo" and see how many hits it brings up including the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Then google "et cum spiritu tuum" and see all the same hits exactly, all for "tuo". I went through five pages out of the ten without once seeing tuum mentioned.

It would appear that only that one source of yours uses it, so who is more likely to be right, him or the rest of the world?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 12:46 PM

Hmm. Still beating the dead horse around and around the Mulberry Bush, I see...

Hmmm - still posting your inane, nugatory & childish BS, I see, Hawk....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 12:51 PM

Guestus:

Not at all what I said, pal. On the other hand, if you can't understand a straightforward communication, you probably have a life rich with opportunities for antagonism, not so? It could be attributable to your own predilections and filters, rather than the ill-intent of all those around you.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 01:04 PM

Ta, Greg. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans arrows
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 06:21 PM

Love the dartboard analogy.   

Excellent

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 06:40 PM

I had a black & tan Dachshund who lived in constant fear of the Rapture. He would gaze skyward nervously whenever outdoors, checking for large raptors. One night when he was very elderly he went out and never came back...just vanished into thin air. Several days of searching yielded nothing, and I'm never seen him since, so for all I know he may be cavorting at this very moment in the Elysian Fields, being fed chocolates and fresh sausages by doting admirers. I hope so. He was, after all, a very nice dog...although he worried way too much about things. His little velvety brow was always furrowed with care.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 01:26 PM

bill,i asked if you would clarify a few things relating to your previous post.i think you vaguely addressed one
if you follow the science where it leads ,so beit if schooltext books need revising.they do already ,i suspect.hackle fraudulent embryo drawings are still in some ,i hear.
and of course science is changing all the time.former supposed proofs of dawinism are collecting in the evolutionary dustbin.
i reckon your dartboard analogy is way off centre.
i ask again.what discoveries are creationist scientists ignoring?.
it seems to me that evolutionists are ignoring the evidence.there is so much evidence from dino bones collecting that supports a much younger age than the 65 MYO evolutionists claim.
and that is not the only argument from science creationists use.even a brief survey of the thousands of articles reveal that a wide range of disciplines are represented.
your charge that there are numerous religious ideas, hardly means that one of them can not be true.
and your denial of God revealing himself is only based,it seems on your unbelief,rather than logical argument.
why should he not do so?
of course,though,he is not obligated to prove himself to those who dont want to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 02:16 PM

Creationist scientists are ignoring their own lack of existence for starters. To claim to be creationist is to carry out your research with a hypothesis that is flawed and has been for 150 years, and no advancement in knowledge has led to supporting creationism. Funny that.

The dartboard analogy is therefore spot on with regard to falsifying evidence and other, I use the term with delicious irony, heretic activities with regard to science.

Belief isn't bad, isn't wrong and so long as you don't stuff it down people's throats, isnt evil either.

But it does not and cannot influence reality, and the understanding of reality. Or science to give it its Sunday name.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 03:59 PM

all you are doing musket,is stating your own presuppositions and bias.unless you cite anything specific,it is only so much unsupported assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 07:15 PM

Oh my, Pete... "he is not obligated to prove himself to those who dont want to believe."

My attitude, as you may have gathered, is that I don't like the IDEA of a capricious god who gave me a mind capable of comprehension and reason, yet expects me to blindly believe 'what I am told' by others regarding creation, an 'afterlife' and morality.

I have written before about circular reasoning and statements which contain their conclusions within their statement. "He is not obligated.." IS an assertion which assumes there is a "He" who exists and expects our belief.
That is what is at issue! "You must believe in order to believe" is not a comfortable feeling for most people.

"former supposed proofs of dawinism are collecting in the evolutionary dustbin."... exceeded a hundred times by carefully researched and documented evidence which DOES support the basic positions of 'Darwinism'...which itself is not a simple theory to be explained in a few paragraphs.

Those "former supposed proofs" have been extensively explored by Stephen Jay Gould in several books ...along with detailed clarifications of why some notions were flawed and why other ideas were correct, but incomplete.
I cannot possibly type fast enough to show you the fabric of Gould's overwhelming understanding of the complex history of research into evolution and the related biology, archeology, paleontology...etc. Men used to make wild guesses about details & causality based on instinctive notions that Darwin had some good ideas...some of those guesses have indeed been consigned to the dustbin, but replaced by BETTER theory as new evidence is collected. AT NO TIME is the core evidence close to being discarded... except by those who assume it MUST be wrong if it doesn't agree with some archaic scripture.

"...there is so much evidence from dino bones collecting that supports a much younger age than the 65 MYO evolutionists claim."

It seems some have a very different idea of how to define 'evidence'. I could do a search and find more evidence than you could read in a lifetime... you seem to get most of your assertions from creation.com and a couple of similar sites....and THEY make their claims based on out-of-context quibbling about interpretations of doubtful data.
Anyone who wants to refute basic scientific research needs to refute it BASED on science....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 08:35 PM

"Creationist scientist" is an oxymoron of the first degree.

You mean science fakirs and bullshit artists, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 08:00 AM

Why would anyone need a liver or a heart in heaven?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 08:55 AM

"the box like biblical ark is of a size and dimensions for optimal stability in the worst of seas..."

pete, do you work for the Shopping Channel?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,SplCr
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 08:57 AM

oops. Me above.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket shaking his head
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 09:10 AM

Ok. Stating the definition of science is stating my own presuppositions and bias.

This is why I differentiate between using faith as a moral compass and believing fairy stories as fact.

Sorry, but children really should be protected from the likes of you. To inflict growing up with your fantasy and promote it to others, often by legal means...

You really are a danger. The fantasy parts of the bible never happened any more than Maori serpents forming islands or Tolkien's middle earth.... If something cannot happen, it probably didn't.

I like you wish the rapture would happen and for the very same reasons too. I hope you have room for my brother in law whilst you are at it. He shares your literal delusion..

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 12:01 PM

Everyone uses faith as a compass...and for all kinds of things. The only question is, what do they have faith IN? Hang around them for a bit and you'll find out. You may have faith in the same things they do. If so, you'll agree with them about those things.

Then there's the stuff we actually KNOW by our direct experience, collected evidence, logical deduction, etc. We all have that stuff too, but we don't necessarily always agree about all of it, because we've had different experiences, been exposed to different evidence, trusted different sources, used our abilities of logical deduction toward different conclusions, etc.

Anyway, my main point is that faith is not confined merely to the field of religion. It's something everyone has, absolutely EVERYONE, and it lines up perfectly with their beliefs, opinions, and prejudices about all kinds of stuff. It is what you have when you don't really know for sure about something...but you think you know for sure about it just because you LIKE being sure about it... ;-D The more insecure people are, the more they will resist just admitting that they don't know for sure about whatever it is they normally have faith in. This is just as true of the irreligious as it is of the religious. The ones who aren't afraid to be honest with themselves will freely admit that they don't know for sure about a whole lot of stuff, and they won't be so quick to categorically deny the other possibilities that lie outside their present faith structure.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 12:31 PM

*sigh* As usual, L.H., you are using a very personal definition of 'faith'. You are not exactly wrong, just 'equivocating'. (You mighta known I'd show up and quibble over that, hmmm?)

It is stretching the language to assert that a chemist has 'faith' that known combinations of chemicals will produce predictable results... or a structural engineer that when stress limits are exceeded, building fall down. Those are various forms of science.

"It is what you have when you don't really know for sure about something...but you think you know for sure about it just because you LIKE being sure about it."

Yes.. faith IS about that...but often, 'confidence' or 'trust' or 'SWAG' (sophisticated wild-ass guess) are better terms....and some people use these in varying formats and situations that THEY would hardly call 'faith'.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 01:36 PM

Yeah, Bill. ;-) I thought you might show up in response.

What I was doing was talking about the actual nature of faith itself. Not just religious faith, but faith, period. Religious faith is one form of it. Faith in political institutions, leaders, national identities, and cultural norms are other forms of it. Faith in various philosophical outlooks on life is/are other forms of it. And so on, ad infinitum...

It is essential that people recognize where they are employing faith...and where they are dealing with certain knowledge of something...and what the difference is.

It isn't faith that tells a scientist that a certain combination of chemicals will result in a specific chemical reaction, and I never asserted that it was. That's knowledge, based upon past experience and observation. It would be faith on the scientist's part to assume that only science can tell him everything worth knowing about life...but that's another matter entirely. He has no confirmation of such a proposition...only an opinion about it, based on his likes and dislikes and familiarities more than anything else...and that's what people's faith is usually based on: likes, dislikes, and familiarities.

You say that "trust" and "confidence" are better terms for what I'm speaking of? As far as I'm concerned, they are synonyms for what I'm speaking of. That's what faith is...it's trust and confidence in an unproven (or perhaps a mistakenly assumed to be proven) proposition, that trust being based on familiarity more than anything else. The more familiar people are with a proposition they happen to already agree with...even in the complete absence of undeniable evidence....the more trust they have in it, and the stronger is their faith.

The proposition may either be a positive one: "There is a God."

Or it may be a negative one: "There is no God."

Either way, it's a faith-based assertion. I grew up in an atheistic family. so my faith-based opinion about it when I was young was most definitely "There is no God." I felt quite sure of it, but not on the basis of evidence. On the basis of automatic assumption...I figured my parents were right.

I later came to a somewhat different conclusion, based on a variety of my own personal experiences and feelings....but I certainly don't think of "God" as...

- a male entity
- a larger humanlike being of some kind
- a separate powerful entity who judges and punishes
- an old patriarch with a beard
- a guy who made the world in 6 days
- a guy who made a whale swallow Jonah and spit him out 3 days later
- a guy whose only official book is the Christian Bible
- a Deity whose only Son is Jesus Christ
- a guy who designated the Children of Israel as his Chosen people

And so on, and so on...

(I do greatly appreciate and try to emulate the ethical and moral principles Jesus is reputed to have given and demonstrated in the writings we have about him...but that's another matter.)

In other words, I don't take a fundamentalist viewpoint. But I do think there's a higher purpose to life, a higher intelligence within everything, and that we are all connected to it in a spiritual and moral sense, and attempting each in our own way to enhance that connection, whether we know it or not. And from that comes our instinctive search for knowledge, beauty, grace, justice, honesty, truth, and love. We use every way we can to get there, including both science and religion.

That's why I don't see them as opposed in any way. They are 2 different paths to the same objective, which is to reach our highest potential. We envision perfection. We reach for it in every way possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 01:45 PM

A third possibility Little Hawk is that there probably is no God.

Or as Heisenberg puts it from a quantum aspect, to observe is to interfere in an indeterminate state.

I reckon Schroedinger's cat has a big white beard and an indeterminate belly button.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 02:49 PM

You bet, Hawk - everything is the same. There's no difference between any two things or concepts on the face of the earth. Everything is absolutely equal and identical.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 02:53 PM

"As far as I'm concerned, they are synonyms for what I'm speaking of."

They are 'similar'. Similar is not the same as synonyms.... there are pretty good reasons why we have different terms to discuss different nuances of attitude and concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:23 PM

"....if something cannot happen,it probably did,nt.."
that is muskets words .
i say,something cannot come from nothing,via no-one.
therefore evolutionism is a non starter.
except that you have faith that it did happen!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:45 PM

faith
/fāTH/
Noun

    Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
    Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.


Bill, It looks like it is a synonym, sort of

Faith = Complete confidence. In the context of Little Hawks example , I'd judge that he was on the money.
I have faith that the morning will come tomorrow. That isn't a religious belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans Clapton
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:48 PM

Evolution is evident.   Even in these threads. For instance, I could argue with pete over that rather than wonder how to reply to unhinged nonsense.

His previous out pourings didn't make such mental leaps.

Praise be!







Still bollocks though.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:54 PM

oh dear!circular reasoning-therefore the theological understanding must be wrong.
i think its called elephant hurling when a lot of generalizations and assertions are thrown about.
you appeal to the late st gould for support asserting that evolutionism is all cut dried.
i could do the same with some highly qualified scientists also.
what would you think of that?...thought so!
what i did was give a specific example-which you dismissed as inadmissable.
there is no dodging it,-soft tissue,DNA,and protein,blood vessels as well ,i think,has been found in dino bones.all of this could not have survived 60 MYO.
AT LEAST SCIENTISTS USED TO SAY SO!.if they have changed their mind,it just indicates that dogma is driving the science.
so with respect bill,i hope you dont do a steve on me and evade specifics .
and you dont need to do an exhaustive search of darwinist proofs.one at a time will do,and if i can,t find an answer i will admit it.
and i will think no less of you if you have to do the same
regards pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 04:17 PM

"i could do the same with some highly qualified scientists also."

Qualifications vary....

Sorry Pete, but they DO know how 'some' DNA can survive for a very long time.....not much, but in some teeth and bones which have been protected from the elements.

When you put forward 'specifics' from only selected sources, you would require me to do the same to refute them, then you would simply disagree.

"circular reasoning-therefore the theological understanding must be wrong."

That is not what I said... nor have I ever said. I have said that circular reasoning is a poor argument, even IF the conclusion turns out to be true. The goal is to defend data and its application in a non-circular way.
A circular argument is a warning to not trust the conclusion... to be wary.

...and... Stephen J. Gould understood the entire realm of discussion far better than you..OR I. You simply cannot dismiss him as 'cut & dried', because none of his analysis WAS cut & dried. He studied and grew & learned and explored as long as he lived.

People told Columbus he'd fall off the edge of the Earth if he sailed too far West. He said "let's find out." Then HE was wrong about what he actually found (not about the concept,...but the details) , and others had to explore further. So it is with history and evolution and the stars and the Meaning of Life. We may never know the ultimate answer(s), but shrugging and saying "I read this old manuscript, and don't need any more answers." is not how most of us wish to avoid exploring.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 04:46 PM

pete I don't think viable dino DNA has been found. Has anyone said that it has?

But Mammoth and and Neandertal and other DNA has been found that is well older than the timeline of the Bible. Does that help.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 05:07 PM

Ahh.. forgot your post, Jack..

"I have faith that the morning will come tomorrow. That isn't a religious belief."

No... not a religious belief, at least to most.I...umm.. knew someone once who insinuated that 'God' decided each day whether to give us the Sun. I had very little I could say to that.

I simply advocate not calling it a type of 'faith' in order to differentiate it from opinions which clearly are matters of disputed beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 05:14 PM

Musket - "A third possibility Little Hawk is that there probably is no God."

Sure. That's a possibility, Musket. I'm pretty sure there is no God anything like the God that many people with a more fundamentalist viewpoint envision...nor do I think God is a separate being who exists apart from any of us. The fundamentalist version of God seems highly unlikely to me. But I can't say for certain. As for other less literal-minded ideas about God, well, there are a great many of those, and we could talk forever and not reach the end of them.

I know nothing about Schroedinger's cat! ;-D But I'm skeptical as a first reaction. I think Schroedinger probably had some point in mind, sort of like those here who talk about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, tinfoil hats, "little green men", and other stuff like that...though he was perhaps being a bit more serious. I don't know.

Musket, there are a simply enormous number of people who DO have a religious or spiritual viewpoint, and who also are quite positive toward the idea or theory of evolution (Darwinian-style or otherwise, such as spiritual evolution, which would go hand in hand WITH biological evolution). Yes, they DO appreciate the evidence science has found in support of Darwin's theory. The 2 ideas (religion and Darwinian evolution) are not inherently opposed, indeed can support each other admirably.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 06:05 PM

"I think Schroedinger probably had some point in mind, sort of like those here who talk about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, tinfoil hats, "little green men", and other stuff like that."

That is a pretty good take on it. Here is all you need to know.

Schroedinger's cat!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 09:11 PM

Ha! Ha! Ha! Great. ;-D You're right, that's probably all I need to know about Schroedinger's Cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 09:12 PM

200...

B~