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BS: Art ID Help?
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BS: Art ID Help? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Peace Date: 26 Dec 06 - 07:04 PM Vienna Opera House. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 07:28 PM I don't CARE what it's WORTH!!!! I'm curious, and like old things. Is that OK? And, looking at some of the newer photos, it appears that the lettering IS still there, and has been gilded as well. Dimensions are 15"x10.5" What I can measure with the mat over it. Bit large to have been cut from a book, I'd think. Paper 'looks' old but I know how easy that is to fake, esp under glass. The only reason I'd ever take something to the Road Show would be to find out what it is, how old, and where it came from. NOT what it's worth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas Date: 26 Dec 06 - 07:41 PM Looking at an enlarged view of Sorcha's enlargements, especially in the sky area, the texture shows as regularly spaced dashed lines, of constant width, straight and parallel, with the light/darkness from variations in the "length of the dashes." This implies the use of a "graver's wheel," as would have been used to engrave a plate for an etching. Such tools were - at least according to descriptions I've seen - commonly used in engraving such plates; but I haven't heard of much use of similar tools in pen and ink drawing, although similar ones did exist and are/were fairly commonly used e.g. in mapmaking where regular "dashed lines" are wanted. Usually a tool of this kind had a "marking point" coupled to a wheel that rolled on the surface. As the wheel rotated it raised and lowered the point to produce a mechanically precise line of dashes. Different wheels produced different ratios of dash to gap. To allow for "overstriking" some varied the dash/gap length, maintaining constant ratio between the two. (Sharp edges and too precise mechanical rendering produces objectionable "edges" and "periodic patterning" in a textured area.) Since the line width is close to the apparent pixel dimension in Sorcha's images, some care must be taken to avoid taking pixellation for graver's lines; but the sky lines, where such a tool would be most likely used are pretty distinct here, while the dome areas, where "freehand scratching" would be more likely don't show the same kind of texture. Based on this "clue(?)" the picture is most definitely an engraving - but an opinion from someone more intimately familiar with reproduction processes of the era than I am would be most welcome. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Bobert Date: 26 Dec 06 - 07:49 PM I'm sorry I brought up the "worth" thing, Sorchie... Hey, if you like it then that's all that counts... Worth, when it comes to art, is a joke anyways... Nice print and that's the story I'm sticken with for now until someone produces any evidence to the contrarty and then I may have a new 'n improved story... Did I mention that it's a very nice print??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Dec 06 - 07:50 PM "The only reason I'd ever take something to the Road Show would be to find out what it is, how old, and where it came from. NOT what it's worth." Shambles went to one of the Antique Road Shows and exposed himself. The appraiser did give it a good look however and said, "The color and tiny size would indicate white, anglo-saxon, protestant roots......and very, very,small roots at that! It looks pretty sad and flacid so it probably is well over a hundred years old.......and to be completely truthful it appears to be totally worthless." Sounded right to me........... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 07:52 PM Grin. And, yes, John, Your analysis of the lines seems correct. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Cluin Date: 26 Dec 06 - 11:00 PM It's a nice piece, Sorcha. Enjoy it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:59 PM I am, thank you. I'm going to bump this just once to see if anymore ideas come out of the woodwork. Thanks everybody! I know a lot more than I did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: GUEST,art appreeciator Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:13 PM It'd make a nice target. Give you a buck for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: ragdall Date: 28 Dec 06 - 01:41 AM Grrrrrrrrr!! Flickr won't let me in. The message I get is "Flickr is having a massage." I wanted to send a copy of the closeup to a friend in Vienna and ask if she knows what the lettering is and the significance thereof. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: ragdall Date: 28 Dec 06 - 03:55 AM From: Bill D - PM Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:14 PM The inscription says "Fuhrer Franz Joseph" but I have no idea what the date refers to....perhaps just the date of the carving. That would be strange, because he was an emperor, not a fuhrer". In German, I think it would be, "Kaiser Franz Josef". I think the top word looks like "Kaiser", (look at the dot on the "i"), but "Josef" is clearly spelled "Joseph". Maybe it wasn't done by an Austrian? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas Date: 28 Dec 06 - 06:05 AM The only way to know for sure is to ask the opera house. Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor (German language: Franz II, Heiliger Römischer Kaiser) also referred to as Francis I, Emperor of Austria (February 12, 1768 – March 2, 1835) was the last Holy Roman Emperor, ruling from 1792 until August 6, 1806, when the Empire was disbanded. He then became Francis I, first Emperor of Austria (ruling from 1804 to 1835). My own guess would be that the inscription refers to him: Francis I, Emperor of Austria. Later in that article: "After 1806 he used the titles: "We, Francis the First, by the grace of God Emperor of Austria; King of Jerusalem, Hungary, Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia and Lodomeria; Archduke of Austria; Duke of Lorraine, Salzburg, Würzburg, Franconia, Styria, Carinthia and Carniola; Grand Duke of Cracow; Grand Prince of Transylvania; Margrave of Moravia; Duke of Sandomir, Masovia, Lublin, Upper and Lower Silesia, Auschwitz and Zator, Teschen and Friule; Prince of Berchtesgaden and Mergentheim; Princely Count of Habsburg, Gorizia and Gradisca and of the Tyrol; and Margrave of Upper and Lower Lusatia and in Istria"." That's a bit much to ask a mason to chisel onto a little block of granite. Note that all of these names/titles are "English equivalents" and don't necessarily represent how one of home town chiselers would have put the title in marble. "Names in other languages: German: Franz II./I., Czech: František I., Slovak: František I., Hungarian: I. Ferenc, Croatian: Franjo I., Italian: Francesco II./I., Slovenian Franc." I would expect that this list is not necessarily complete. A Genealogy of the Imperial and Royal Family of Austria-Hungary1: House Habsburg-Lothringen gives: "HIM Franz Joseph Karl Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary and Bohemia (Born as: HI & RH Franz Joseph Karl Prince Imperial and Archduke of Austria, Prince Royal of Hungary and Bohemia, Prince of Tuscany) (Since March 1st, 1792:) HIM Franz II Joseph Karl Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, King in Germany, of Jerusalem, Hungary and Bohemia, Archduke of Austria (Since August 11th, 1804:) HIM Franz II Joseph Karl Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, Emperor of Austria, King in Germany, of Jerusalem, Hungary and Bohemia * Florence, February 12th, 1768 † Vienna, March 2nd, 1835 Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, King of Hungary and Bohemia, Archduke of Austria, Duke of Milan, March 1st, 1792 (deposed as Duke of Milan: May 9th, 1796; abdicated as Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire: August 6th, 1806); Grand Duke of Cracow, October 24th, 1795; Duke of Friaul, Lord of Cattaro, 1797; Emperor of Austria, August 11th, 1804; Duke of Milan, April 28th, 1814 - April 7th, 1815; King of Lombardia-Venice, April 7th, 1815; King of Illyria, Duke of Salzburg, Duke of Ragusa and Zara, Prince of Triente and Brixen, June 10th, 1815" Although the histories gloss over it, his "given name" was Franz Joseph Karl, and it does appear as "Franz Joseph I," albeit perhaps incidentally, and perhaps briefly, and it may have varied in different localities. 1808 was the year in which he married (his third of four royal wives), which would have been an occasion for changes in titles for both parties to a royal marriage. The stone may mark his assuming the title Kaiser?/Fuhrer?/Emporer? Franz Joseph I in that year. It is possible that on the occasion of adding a few domains, he adopted the Franz Joseph, as by that time he had a (6 y.o.) son named Franz Karl. It also is likely that the histories gloss over his usage of "Franz Joseph I," since the same name also was used by his grandson. Historians have adopted that name as the "standard reference" to the grandson, and use another of this man's names to make clear which is meant, but both are recorded as having been called "Franz Joseph I" (preceded and followed by different lists of titles). (But of course I'm only guessing.) John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas Date: 28 Dec 06 - 06:10 AM I lost a link when I copied/pasted in and out of Word a couple of times while organizing the above post. The first line of the above (28 Dec 06 - 06:05 AM) post should have started off with the Wiki link: Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: ragdall Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:10 AM Sorcha, I heard from my friend in Vienna. He went down to the Opera House with binoculars to look for you. He wrote:
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:17 AM An additional bit of trivia that I encountered was that the "new" opera house was so severely criticized by the public that the principal architect, Edouard van der Null, committed suicide at about the time that the (original) building was completed. Note that details are sparse, and although the article I found implies that it was because of the criticism, that's not necessarily a documented conclusion. The guy appears to have been subject to some "strangeness" of personality. John |
