BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:59 PM

What is it about the Israeli leader being a petty corrupt crook that you disagree with?
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:01 PM

When Israel targets the civilian population of Gaza (which it is doing) as a way of trying to make Hamas change its behavior, it is engaging in collective punishment, which is a war crime. It is illegal under international law for governments of countries to use civilian populations as a way of trying to control the behavior of the governments of other countries (or occupied areas, as the case may be).

It is a war crime for Israel to punish the civilian population of Gaza as a way of trying to control the behavior of Hamas. It is also a war crime for Israel to say that it will not stop punishing the civilian population of Gaza until Hamas accedes to its demands.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:11 PM

If indeed the Israelis said this, then they have blundered even more than they did in the recent war with Lebanon. As to their leader's 'corruption', I still want to know where Arafat's $300,000,000 came from and then went. I thought that money belonged to the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:20 PM

"When Israel targets the civilian population of Gaza (which it is doing)"
Israel says they actively target militants, not civilians but civilians do die often in these attacks which occur in populated areas. When this happens you often hear accusations of Israeli massacres from the Palestinian side of it's publicity, but they neglect to mention who was really targeted and the reasons for behind it. Do you believe it is Israeli policy to attack civilians and do you consider militants innocent civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:57 PM

The reason given for the starving and freezing of one and a half million human beings, crowded into a territory of 365 square kilometers, is the continued shooting at the town of Sderot and the adjoining villages.

That is a well-chosen reason.
It unites the primitive and poor parts of the Israeli public.
It blunts the criticism of the UN and the governments throughout the world, who might otherwise have spoken out against a collective punishment that is, undoubtedly, a war crime under international law.

A clear picture is presented to the world: the Hamas 'terror regime' in Gaza launches missiles at innocent Israeli civilians. No government in the world can tolerate the bombardment of its citizens from across the border.
The Israeli military has not found a military answer to the Qassam missiles.
Therefore there is no other way than to exert such strong pressure on the Gaza population as to make them rise up against Hamas and compel them to stop the missiles.

The Israeli government decided to cause massive suffering of the civilian population in order to get them to pressure Hamas but the population unites behind Hamas and accuses Mahmoud Abbas of cooperation with the enemy.
A mother who has no food for her children does not curse Ismail Haniyeh, she curses Olmert, Abbas and Mubarak.

SO WHAT to do? After all, it is impossible to tolerate the suffering of the inhabitants of Sderot, who are under constant fire.

What is being hidden from the embittered public is that the launching of the Qassams could be stopped tomorrow morning.

Almosy a year ago Hamas proposed a cease-fire. It repeated the offer in January this year.

In order to make such a deal, we must speak with Hamas, directly or indirectly. And this is precisely what the government refuses to do.

In simple and blunt words: the government sacrifices the fate of the Sderot population on the altar of a hopeless principle. It is more important for the government to boycott Hamas - because it is now the spearhead of Palestinian resistance - than to put an end to the suffering of Sderot. All the media cooperate with this pretence.


The brutal blockade was a war crime. And worse: it was a stupid blunder


From the writing of Uri Avnery
a German-born Israeli journalist, left-wing peace activist, and former Knesset member, who was originally a member of the right-wing Revisionist Zionist movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:21 PM

Guest 'Arnie' whoever you are....
you asked, 'Do you believe it is Israeli policy to attack civilians'

Well it certainly is the 'policy' to reduce the life behind the Aparheid Wall to such unacceptable and sub human levals that well respected independent organizations and Jewish peace activists refer to it as the war crime of 'collective punishment'

may I repeat what I posted earlier

'In February Isreali deputy defence minister Matan Vilna threatened Gaza with "they will bring upon themselves a bigger 'shoah'* because we will use all our might to defend ourselves"'

*the word "shoah" is rarely used in Israel beyond discussions of the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:27 PM

If I accept that post as entirely true, Emma, then it is a sword that cuts two ways. Hamas has said it is trying to stop these attacks. Surely if the Israeli military could stop the rocket attacks, then Hamas could also, no? Yet that doesn't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:40 PM

The blockade of Gaza targets civilians. It isn't keeping the rockets out of Israel. It only keeps civilians in and food and other resources that allow civilians to remain alive out. And cutting off power, fuel, and water supplies also targets civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:45 PM

True. But it leaves the problem of the rocket attacks. And Hamas is doing little to stop that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:49 PM

Peace, this is quoted from The Christian Science Monitor in April this year and outlines the 'cease fire' offer

'The proposal Hamas put forward on Thursday could be extended to a year-long agreement.

Al-Zahar said other Palestinian factions, including Islamic Jihad and groups based in Damascus, had preliminarily approved the offer.

"The key condition for this ceasefire is that Israel should re-open all the crossings ... to lift the embargo on the Palestinian people"

Ghazi Hamad, a Hamas spokesman, told Al Jazeera that it would aim to begin improving the situation in Gaza first, and then expand to the West Bank as well.

He said: "I think the key condition for this ceasefire is that Israel should re-open all the crossings [into Gaza], especially the Rafah crossing, in order to allow people and goods to move in and out and to lift the embargo on the Palestinian people.

Israel rejected a cease-fire offer from the Palestinian group Hamas as a humanitarian aid crisis erupting in the Gaza Strip threatened wider instability.

The crisis in the troubled Palestinian territory deepened as President Bush, meeting with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in Washington, offered assurances that a two-state deal is possible before he leaves office in January.'

If Isreal HAD been able to stop the rocket launches by military tactics alone I'm sure it would have done so, the problem is that the 'seige' of one and a half million men women and children behind a wall of shame is the method that they are trying.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:54 PM

In a situation where one of the belligerents has offered to negotiate a cease-fire, the choice is clear. It is legal to negotiate a cease-fire, but it is a war crime to use collective punishment as a way to avoid having to negotiate.

Hamas has offered to negotiate a cease-fire. Israel has refused and is instead using collective punishment for the purpose of trying to avoid negotiations. Israel is using collective punishment of a civilian population as a kind of defacto negotiation. This is a war crime.

Even when Hamas was unilaterally engaging in a year long cease-fire, Israel did not stop its bombing of Gaza. Hamas has every reason, based on past experience, to expect that if it stopped firing rockets into Israel right now, Israel would not stop bombing Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:57 PM

Emma, that still leaves unanswered why Hamas doesn't stop the rocket attacks. There are wheels within wheels there, and Israel is just one of those wheels. Various factions connected with groups who have other than the best interests of Palestinians at the heart of their efforts--loosely called terrorist--have used the scenario you describe to rearm. We know that to be true. So tell me, if you were an Israeli, would you allow that to happen? Someone's gotta give first, and I don't think it will be Israel--not without some serious guarantees.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:01 PM

'Israel's military killed at least 60 Palestinians yesterday - almost half of them civilians, including four children - in its most violent assault on the Gaza Strip since the Islamic militant group Hamas seized power last June.

The latest deaths bring the number of Palestinians killed since a rocket fired from inside Gaza killed a 44-year-old Israeli in the town of Sderot last week to 80. Two Israeli soldiers also died in the fighting. Late last night, the office of the Hamas prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, was attacked by an Israeli aircraft, which hit the building with three missiles. Although no casualties were reported, witnesses said the building was destroyed.

The latest bloodshed comes as an Observer investigation revealed how Israel is again deliberately obstructing the transfer of urgent medical cases for treatment outside Gaza, in the latest extension of its policy of collective punishment of Palestinians.

The death toll climbed through yesterday as Israeli troops targeted Palestinian militants who fired rockets and mortar shells into Israel. The operation follows last week's warning by Israel's deputy defence minister, Matan Vilnai, that a 'holocaust' would be unleashed on Gaza if rocket fire was not halted.

Last night, the US called for an end to the violence and said it regretted the loss of life in the Gaza Strip. 'There is a clear distinction between terrorist rocket attacks that target civilians and action in self defence,' White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said. As the number of fatalities rose, Palestinian leaders threatened to call off talks with Israel.'

full report at The Observer, Sunday March 2 2008

Peace - don't you think Hamas wants a cease fire?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:01 PM

The ceasefire Hamas offered was couched in terms like "do our best to stop the attacks".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:05 PM

Emma - I asked Carole "Do you believe it is Israeli policy to attack civilians"? and you used my question to address the collective punishment argument. You didn't answer that question. Also yes the deputy defense minister words were rather stupid invoking the "Shoah" comparison, but obviously made out of pure frustration at the constant rocked bombardments - putting so much pressure on him from the Israeli public to really do something about it militarily finally to end them, which is still a strong possibility. He was trying to warn Hamas that if this happens many innocent people could get killed in the process because Hamas just won't stop the rockets.
I do believe somehow Israel needs to negotiate with Hamas somehow, but we don't know why the previous cease fire offers weren't accepted - do we? - all we can do is guess and make propaganda out of false accusations that come from our imaginations. The conditions have to be met and the will on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:05 PM

I do think Hamas wants a ceasefire. I don't think the faction(s) firing the rockets wants a ceasefire.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:07 PM

Peace, you yourself have pointed out that there are other 'factions' operating inside Gaza.

The cease fire proposed by Hamas had, as reported, the 'preliminary approval' of Islamic Jihad and 'other groups' based in Damascus.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:10 PM

The rockets ain't coming from Damascus.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:14 PM

Hamas has said that they are willing to accept Israel if Israel will withdraw to the pre-1967 lines and leave the Palestinians alone, as long as this is what the Palestinians say they want, and they have said that this is what they want. This is the only legal option under international law. Israel is using collective punishment in order to try to circumvent its obligations under international law.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:10 PM

"The latest deaths bring the number of Palestinians killed since a rocket fired from inside Gaza killed a 44-year-old Israeli in the town of Sderot last week to 80. Two Israeli soldiers also died in the fighting. Late last night, the office of the Hamas prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, was attacked by an Israeli aircraft, which hit the building with three missiles. Although no casualties were reported, witnesses said the building was destroyed.

The latest bloodshed comes as an Observer investigation revealed how Israel is again deliberately obstructing the transfer of urgent medical cases for treatment outside Gaza, in the latest extension of its policy of collective punishment of Palestinians.

The death toll climbed through yesterday as Israeli troops targeted Palestinian militants who fired rockets and mortar shells into Israel. The operation follows last week's warning by Israel's deputy defence minister, Matan Vilnai, that a 'holocaust' would be unleashed on Gaza if rocket fire was not halted."

OK then Emma B, there are two peoples shoes I want you to climb into here and view the situation from their perspective:

The first is from the perspective of someone who is responsible for the safety of the general population at large in Israel. You are faced with the problem of a group, or several groups, of people firing rockets from their land into your civilian centres of population. Their aim is to kill as many of your people as possible, these people have trying to do this with varying degrees of success for the last 88 years. They have clearly stated that their goal is your annihilation - How do you view them? What is your response? You are primarily responsible for the protection of your people.

The second is from the perspective of a Palestinian Arab father with a family, who is living next to a small piece of waste ground upon which a "militant" group have assembled a firing point for rockets. By bitter experience you know that they will be extremely lucky to kill one Israeli, and even if they don't, you know that return fire may kill 80 of your neighbours, possibly including your own children, all this due to the fact that they have positioned their firing point in the middle of a civilian centre of population. Who do you blame for the ensuing deaths? Do you ever question the stance that "victory" can only ever be achieved by the total annihilation of Israel and its people? Have you ever embraced the thought that people can co-exist and work in harmony?

Remember this from what you have quoted:

1. "Palestinian militants who fired rockets and mortar shells into Israel." - i.e. indiscriminate fire at civilian targets inside Israel.

2. "Israeli troops targeted Palestinian militants who fired rockets and mortar shells into Israel."

See any marked difference there Emma? I look forward with interst to what you have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:37 PM

This was the aftermath of the first ceasefire: I wonder why Israel is a bit reluctant to trust them this time?
        
WND Exclusive FROM WND'S JERUSALEM BUREAU
Hamas: Cease-fire officially over
Launches massive rocket attack, threatens suicide bombings
Posted: April 24, 2007
12:08 pm Eastern

JERUSALEM – A truce Hamas made with Israel in Gaza last November is "officially over," Hamas leaders told WND today, threatening to send suicide bombers into Tel Aviv if the Jewish state retaliates for a major attack carried out this morning.

"We don't recognize Israel's right to exist. We will never allow Jews to remain in our lands. Today's attack was only a sample of what we can do. We have thousands of rockets ready to be shot. The cease-fire is officially over," said Abu Abdullah, considered one of the most important operational members of Izzedine al-Qassam Martyrs Brigades, Hamas' so-called military wing.

In the first rocket attack it claimed responsibility for in five months, Hamas earlier today fired 39 Qassam rockets and 79 mortars from the Gaza Strip aimed at nearby Jewish communities. The projectiles were meant to be a diversion as the group attempted to storm an Israeli military base on the Gaza border to kidnap Israeli soldiers.

The attacks occurred as Israelis nationwide celebrated the country's Independence Day.

The Israel Defense Forces thwarted the kidnap attempt and dispatched helicopters to intercept the gunmen behind it. Missiles were fired at Qassam launch pads in Gaza. The IDF at first said only 10 rockets were fired by Hamas in today's attack but later admitted "dozens" of Qassams were launched.

IDF sources said the military's response to today's Hamas attacks will be limited.

Hamas' Abu Abdullah threatened if Israel raided Gaza "the Zionists will be entering hell. We are preparing a major cemetery for them. We will step up attacks, including dispatching suicide bombers to Tel Aviv."

Following today's attack, the Hamas-led Palestinian government issued a statement calling for calm. Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh claimed his government would dedicate efforts to convince Palestinian factions to maintain the truce with Israel.

But Abu Abdullah told WND today's attacks were coordinated with the Hamas political leadership.

He said Hamas used the cease-fire to stockpile weaponry and train for attacks against the Jewish state.

In November, Israel agreed to a truce with Gaza militants in which the Jewish state vowed to suspend anti-terror operations in the Gaza Strip in exchange for quiet. Since then, more than 200 rockets have been fired from Gaza, but the IDF largely has restrained itself from operating in the territory.

Hamas has not taken responsibility for rocket attacks the past five months, but Israel says the group has been passing rockets on to other Palestinian organizations to carry out attacks. Hamas last month took credit for a shooting attack at the Gaza border.

Days after the Nov. 23 truce was made, Hamas leaders in Gaza granted a series of exclusive interviews to WND in which they said the new agreement would be used to smuggle weapons into the Gaza Strip; reinforce and train "fighter units"; and produce rockets for a future confrontation with the Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:43 AM

Palestine Lives
Nasser Jaber is a chicken farmer in Rafah ,southern Gaza.He and his brothers had spent 18 years building up the business which produced 45,000 eggs a day. He did not belong to any political grouping or armed faction.
A few days ago at 4am two Israeli armoured bulldozers and an Israeli military unit enterd the chicken farm and spent four hours bulldozing it down to the ground.
When they left they left piles of rubble,twisted metals sheets , and thousands of dead chickens in the ruins of what had been a thriving million dollar business.
Mr Jaber's workers are now trying to pull the putrifying dead chicken out of the rubble before they cause further disease and an awful stench.
The Israeli army is steadily destroying farmland in Gaza .It is ripping up land,bulldozing green areas and orchards and destroying farms and farm buildings.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 08 - 07:23 AM

Guest, albert,

You stated:

7
It has shelled picnicers on the beach.


Might want to check the facts on that one. It was an errent PALESTINIAN missile that killed them, about 15 minutes after the Israeli shelling of Palestinain rocket launchers stopped.

Palestinians have killed about as many Palestinians as the Israelis. But that seems to be ok to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 30 May 08 - 09:27 AM

to Bearded Bruce
If you believe that you will believe anything! But Israel does have a bit of a reputation for massacring civilians and eventually isuing a denial along the lines of
"It wasn't me guv"
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 30 May 08 - 10:07 AM

Guest Albert, tell us all about Muhammad Jamal al-Durrah.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:19 PM

Palestinian groups have a bit of a reputation for massacring civilians. Mostly other Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:26 PM

While Hamas was unilaterally engaging in a cease fire, Israel had continued bombing occupied Palestine and had killed quite a few civilians as well as Hamas members in their campaign of assassinating Hamas members.

I will put this another way. Israel did not participate in that cease fire. Only Hamas did. Israel kept on killing and assassinating Palestinians civilians and members of Hamas during that period. Hamas demonstrated that they are capable of doing what they say they will do, and they demonstrated that they can be trusted to not engage in any violent acts when they say this is what they will do. What Israel demonstrated during this time is that violence from Hamas is not the reason for anything that Israel does to the Palestinians. It's just an excuse for things they would do, and have done, even in the absence of violence from Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:35 PM

From September of 2000 to April of 2008:


Palestinians killed by Israelis (security forces and civilians)...

4833


Palestinians killed by Palestinians...

577


http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:54 PM

Carole said"
"Israel did not participate in that cease fire. Only Hamas did."
"While Hamas was unilaterally engaging in a cease fire, Israel had continued bombing occupied Palestine and had killed quite a few civilians as well as Hamas members in their campaign of assassinating Hamas members."

About 200 rockets fired into Israel from Gaza during that ceasefire? (not claimed by Hamas) Hamas in control should have stopped the militants within Gaza from firing rockets, instead they actively supported them behind the cover of the official Hamas ceasefire, and in doing so made themselves targets for reprisal and assassination. Surely Did they didn't expect Israel to just sit back and take it - for how long?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:37 PM

Hamas said it was not responsible for the rockets. I've never noticed any reluctance on the part of Hamas to claim responsibility for attacks they have instigated. One thing you can say about them, right or wrong in their behavior overall, they're pretty up front about what they are doing.

Hamas should no more be held responsible for actions taken by other groups in areas over which it has control than the Isreali government should. The Israeli government does not do anything at all to prevent or stop settler attacks on Palestinians. On the contrary, it assists those settlers in getting away with those attacks. Double standards for behavior don't work in the long run. Not if peace and security is the goal.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:51 PM

"Hamas should no more be held responsible for actions taken by other groups in areas over which it has control than the Isreali government should."
I disagree 100% with this statement! If Hamas or the Israeli government wants legitimacy in the eyes of the world, they are the ones that have the responsibility to take action against civilian criminal acts, and are the ones to blame for not reigning them in. I know Israel prosecutes murderers - Hamas glorifies them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:55 PM

Here are some snipits from an article in today's Jerusalem post:

According to the Palestinians, the future status of Jerusalem, the problem of the refugees and the borders of the future Palestinian state are only some of the major obstacles that have prevented progress at the negotiating table.

The real problem lies in the fact that there is no Palestinian leader today who would be able to accept anything less than what Yasser Arafat rejected at the botched Camp David summit in the summer of 2000. Then, according to Israelis who participated in the talks, Arafat was offered more than 90% of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, in addition to the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem.

Abbas is also seen by many Palestinians as a weak and uncharismatic leader. Even worse, he is being held responsible for the fact that the Palestinians are today more divided than ever. His failure to encourage reforms in the ruling Fatah faction and his failure to solve the crisis with Hamas have damaged his image as a strong leader.

Abbas has promised to bring any agreement he achieves with Israel to a referendum. But, given the fact that he has no control over the Gaza Strip or the refugee camps in neighboring Arab countries, it's hard to see how such a referendum could be held. Besides, there is a high probability that a majority of Palestinians would say no to a deal that does not give them 100% of their demands.

"Both Olmert and Abbas are too weak at this stage to reach an agreement," said a Palestinian newspaper editor in Ramallah. "Neither of them would be able to sell an agreement to his people." .........................
They argue that, in any case, a declaration of principles - or a "framework agreement" - would not be too bad, particularly if it includes recognition of the Palestinians' demands regarding Jerusalem, settlements, borders and refugees. Livni, Barak, Binyamin Netanyahu or whoever succeeds Olmert won't be able to ignore such an agreement, and will have to negotiate with the Palestinians on the basis of the understandings. That's perhaps why the PA leadership does not seem to be very worried about who will succeed Olmert.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:17 PM

The government of Israel does not prosecute the vast majority of settler attacks on Palestinians. And of the ones that are prosecuted, almost none are punished in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:21 PM

I should also point out that some people are saying that Hamas should have prevented rockets being fired by other groups. If Hamas should be expected to prevent these things, then, equally, the government of Israel should be expected to prevent settler attacks on Palestinians. But we can see in some of the videos I posted earlier in the thread, not only do they not prevent them, but they (in the form of their representatives in occupied Palestine, the IDF) sometimes even stand by and watch while the attacks are taking place.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:59 PM

"I should also point out that some people are saying that Hamas should have prevented rockets being fired by other groups
They also should be doing this today!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:05 PM

We should take with a large pinch of salt any statement by the zionists that the Palestinians were responsible for rejecting the Camp David agreement of 2000.
Israel is simply not interested in a just settlement .Its intentions are perfectly clear -
1 Batter Gaza into an abject compliance.

2 Continue the illegal settlements in the West Bank to create demographic facts on the ground.

3 Settle accounts with Hezbollah sometime in the future after it has worked out how to deal with their sophisticated guerrilla tactics.

4 Encourage the USA to continue its policy of destabilizing Lebanon.
5 Split Syria away from its alliance with Iran...but it will not give up the Golan.

6 Continue with the bantustan policy on the West Bank and control the Palestinians via the Apartheid Wall, dozens and dozens of checkpoints,
transport controls,imprisonment of Palestinians etc.Also continue to steal water from the Jordan River.

7 Continue to maintain close links with its biggest supporter The USA which provides it with huge quantities of military and economic aid.
8. No right of return for Palestinian refugee and their children and grandchildren.

These policies have turned Israel into one of the most brutal,racist oppressive and dangerous countries in the world.They are a recipe for continued conflict and oppression,barbarity and bigotry.
Let us remember that by smashing up the secular led Fatah movement the Zionists helped with the creation of Hamas.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:40 PM

B.B. There has always been propagandistic crap from Israel and Palestinians. There is nothing informative here. Both sides have engaged not only in a war of words but of ideology and neither seems to want to recognize the humanity of the other.

The problem of course is that Israel is militarily stronger than Palestinians due to their advancement of nuclear weapons and materiel provided by the US. So who is the David or the Goliath?

Noam Chomsky at first advocated the One State solution and then I guess realizing that nobody would accept this then supported the Two State solution which is better than nothing I think.

Fortunately, there are sane heads in Israel that often make the pages of Ha'Eretz" such as the leader of Gush Shalom, Ari Avnery and other notable critics such as Chomsky, Juan Cole, and Dahr Jamail. I would trust what they have to say rather than some trumped-up
piece of Bushlike inflammatory rhetoric disguised as "fact".

Peace in the Mid-East will not be accomplished by enemy-posing and name-calling and phony pronouncements by either side.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:49 PM

Frank - I think there are some good and important facts presented here in some of these posts - maybe nothing for you, (discarding all the name calling and obvious over the top propaganda on all sides.)That is the purpose of this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 10:02 PM

What Arafat rejected was tiny bantustans surrounded by apartheid, Jewish only settlement blocs and apartheid, Jewish only roads (separating the bantustans, one from another). That 90 percent figure might represent the actual percentage of area that would be called Palestine, but only about 40 percent of that would actually be controlled by the Palestinians, and that 40 percent would be in the form of tiny areas separated from each other by the settlements and the roads.

It would not have been possible to have a viable state in the area that was being offered to the Palestinians.

Here is what Israel was offering the Palestinians...

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/passiacampdavid2000.gif

Here is what Arafat was willing to agree to...

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/taba_palestiniancounter.jpg


The Israeli map shows that Israel has no intention of ever letting the Palestinians have a viable independent state. They will only consider giving them enough to be able to say that they "gave the Palestinians a state", but not enough for the Palestinians to be able to live and prosper.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 30 May 08 - 10:44 PM

Those links you sent are of poor viewing quality- I can't really tell what's going on there, but to say that what they rejected "was tiny bantustans surrounded by apartheid" is kind of laughable. Just from a glance I can see that the red area could probably easily accommodate all those living there at the time- an area consisting of 90% of occupied West Bank - what's tiny about that? I think it's bigger that the rest of the state of Israel that would be left afterwards. "but not enough for the Palestinians to be able to live and prosper" - a load of bullshit. He was so close to making a real positive change for his people. His golden opportunity finally arrived and He blew it. He went from almost having a state, peace, security, economic ties with Israel to having absolutely nothing at all and now his people live in despair. So much for the Nobel Peace Prize Winner - he should have won the Peace Prize Loser.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:08 AM

The maps in the links can be clicked on to magnify them. In the Israeli map, the red areas are separated by Israeli controlled areas, and also they are divided up by roads. If one looks at each red area, one can see a lot of roads snaking around and through it. Each of those roads separates the red area it is in into much smaller areas. Those roads are barriers to movement for the Palestinians. They are apartheid, Jewish-only roads that the Palestinians are not allowed to use or cross. The only way Palestinians can get from one side of one of those roads to the other side is to travel to the nearest checkpoint, and go through the arduous process of trying to be allowed to pass through. People often have to wait for hours or days to get through, and they are also often not allowed through at all. And each red area is also surrounded by Israeli controlled land that the Palestinians have to go through the same process to cross.

That is not independence. It is imprisonment.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:13 AM

I'm starting to see a pattern with the allegations of corruption that are being leveled at Olmert. When Sharon was at about the same stage in negotiations with the Palestinians as Olmert is now, the same kinds of charges were being leveled at him. And then he went into his coma before he could do anything more. Both times, Netanyahu was/is waiting in the wings to take power in the event that an election is held.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 08 - 03:16 AM

Agree with Guest Arnie on the quality of the map links supplied by CarolC, particularly the one from PASSIA, the "key" to which is a incomplete.

Guest Albert, the actions taken by IDF against what appear to be completely innocent farmers should be condemned as strongly as possible if the facts of the matter are indeed as laid out. I would however like to hear what the IDF's reasons were for destroying the sections of that farm that they did, and why they didn't destroy it completely if they felt justified in their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 08 - 03:50 AM

Here's another set of maps, along with an explanation of what was offered and what was accepted. The final map is the last offer that Barak made to Arafat. Arafat accepted this offer, but Barak never showed it to the Israeli public...

http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: goatfell
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:29 AM

I got the words fro this from a webiste, if only it would come true
Last Night I Had The) Strangest Dream

    * (Ed McCurdy)

      Chorus:
      Last night I had the strangest dream
      I never dreamed before
      I dreamed the world had all agreed
      To put an end to war

      I dreamed I saw a mighty room
      And the room was filled with men
      And the paper they were signing said
      They'd never fight again

      And when the paper was all signed
      And a million copies made
      They all joined hands, bowed their heads
      And grateful prayers were prayed

      The people in the streets below
      Were dancing round and round
      And swords and guns and uniforms
      Lay scattered on the ground

      (as sung by Iain MacKintosh & Hamish Imlach)

Susannes Folksong-Notizen

    *

      english [1965:] [This was already] some years old when it caught on as an expression of commonsense hopes. (Notes 'Spotlight On The Spinners')
    *

      english [1966:] In 1950 young Ed McCurdy came up to the hotel room of the Weavers [...]. He sang us [this] which he'd just made up. The song has never been on the top forty, but has gradually spread throughout much of the world. (Notes Pete Seeger, 'Waist Deep In The Big Muddy')
    *

      german [1977:] Das Lied schrieb Ed McCurdy zu Beginn der Ostermarschbewegung in England. (Liederkiste 43)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 31 May 08 - 09:20 AM

Palestine Lives
Three Palestinian females who needed urgent medical treatment died earlier this month after being refused permission to leave Gaza which is under Israeli siege.
Gaza city resident Ahmahan Al Jamal a thirteen year old girl suffering from brain cancer, died after being refused permission to obtain medical care while two women Zakyiah Sa'dah 59, and Nathmiah Abdah 55, both from the Al Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza also died after being refused exit. Zakyiah had heart problems and Nathmiah was a cancer patient.

All three were victims of the blockade and so far the number who have died seeking to travel out of Gaza for medical care has risen to 145 since the siege began in June 2007.
These details are rarely if ever mentioned in the Western media but surely constitue a war crime against civilians.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 08 - 10:06 AM

Guest David, who is it that actually controls the crossings into Egypt?

If Hamas can smuggle rockets into Gaza then surely they can smuggle people out. They are the people who were elected to be in charge of everybody in the Gaza strip. Can you give us any indication at all when, IF EVER, they are going to step up to the plate and assume the duty and responsibility for doing that instead of their continued game of playing "silly buggers" with Israel which for the last 60 years has got them absolutely nowhere - SLOW LEARNING CURVE OR WHAT!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 31 May 08 - 11:19 AM

Carole - thanks for pointing out the map details by pointing us to a completely biased webpage and organization as Gush Shalom. Another organization that says they promote peace with completely one sided information and propaganda. Although some of their info presented is valid and academic in form, they lay it out in such a way as to place no blame whatsoever on the Palestinians or their leadership, and shows how bogus they are. Go to their homepage folks and have a look http://zope.gush-shalom.org/index_en.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 08 - 11:33 AM

Arnie - In case you haven't noticed, practically this entire thread has become a platform for finding and posting "facts" and opinions that support the views of one side or the other. In today's age of information availability this exercise can go on ad infinitum. I don't see it as accomplishing anything positive other that disseminating propaganda. Carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:07 PM

Palestine Lives
Israel controls all the crossing points into and out of Gaza.They control these points with machine guns,tanks and all the other military hardware it needs to lock down a city of over a million people.

Just a few days ago in the south of Gaza Israeli soldiers fired live ammunition at a protest of some 2000 unarmed Gazan who were demanding that the crossing into Egypt be opened so that food,fuel and other essentials could enter Gaza and of course so that the residents there could also have freedom of movement.

The demonstarion was fired on at some 13 Gazan Palestinian were shot and injured adding yet more casualties to the severely overcrowded and under resourced hospitals which are struggling to obtain power,medicines and other necessities.

As for the suggestion that a patient with brain cancer be moved hundreds of metres in a narrow sand tunnel it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny does it?
DAVID