BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:09 PM

CarolC, you are a liar and a libeler! I have never called anyone a 'Jew hater' in the course of these discussions. And while I speak only for myself, I don't believe Peace has either.

Peace has done so numerous times right here in this thread, as well as other threads. Read the thread for yourself. I took your comments about race baiting to be an endorsement of his position in this regard. I apologize if you do not endorse those kinds of comments coming from him.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:25 PM

CarolC take a look in the mirror!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:42 PM

Prior to John's post, Sandy, I have not accused anyone of race baiting. Not ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:49 PM

I wasn't going to do it, but Mrs. JotSC is getting ready for us to go see cowboy music thereby giving me the time. I scrolled through Peace's comments on this thread, and did not see anywhere that he called anyone here a 'Jew hater.' I did see your comment of May 18 at 4:26 where you accused him of of using the term on other threads. Well, I researched as much as I'm going on this subject. You, CarolC, have no cred left with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:57 PM

Here you go, John. Here's just one of the many...


Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace - PM
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:36 PM

These anti-Israel folks do NOT care about humans. Only those they think are human. And from their posts, it's obvious they think Jews are not worthy of the same consideration they feel the Palestinians should have. Will they speak against Hezbollah or Hamas? NO! For to do so would not be in their game plan because they would then have to admit that the people representing the Palestinian people are fu#king murderers. If I knew how to do the spit word in writing, it would go here.


Or perhaps I misunderstood Peace, and he wasn't saying that everyone who criticizes what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinians is anti-Israel. Of course, only Peace can tell us one way or another.


You, CarolC, have no cred left with me.

I never imagined that I had any cred with you to begin with.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:08 PM

You know, I don't think anybody here is particularly racist. Some don't like the policies of Israel, and some do. Stop calling each other names and get back to the topic of discussion - the "facts" of the Palestinian issue.

Some of you are being far too combative, and I'm getting pressure to bar you from Mudcat. If you find yourself blocked, contact me politely by e-mail in a few weeks, and we'll talk about it.

-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:10 PM

"Organized religion has much to answer for be it Muslim, Christian or Jew! It is time to bury the hatchet and if necessary, bury Christ, King David and Muhammad as well for the betterment of us all!
Brilliant and truly realistic idea - good luck! You've really solved this problematic discussion here. By the way watch what you say on the internet. Some folks have gotten themselves in deep trouble in the Muslim world for saying things about -you know who.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:11 PM

CarolC you said:
"Israel did start the 1967 war, and the reason it is of the utmost importance to bring this to the awareness of people is because Israel is using its fiction about '67 being for them a defensive war in order to say that they were legally entitled to take land by conquest. As long as Israel is allowed to provoke wars with its neighbors and then take their land by conquest, there will never be peace in the region, and there will never be peace for the Israelis."

I do not agree with the occupation of the west bank or the Israli settlements and I think that they should withdraw. However I was alive in '67 and that war was started by Egypt! If we are to mend fences we must look at historical facts with an unbiased eye. Your statement is simply untrue. Isreal should be allowed to live in peace within it's pre '67 borders. Most of the Palistinian refugees were Jordanian citizens and Jordan cut them loose. Nothing to be proud about from either side but Isreal should be allowed to exist!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:20 PM

Well Arnie I've lived three score of my three score and ten. One thing about the advancing years is that you look back more than looking forward. Wisdom can be found in history but only us old farts can see it!
          Slainte,
                Sandy

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:26 PM

I do not agree with the occupation of the west bank or the Israli settlements and I think that they should withdraw. However I was alive in '67 and that war was started by Egypt! If we are to mend fences we must look at historical facts with an unbiased eye. Your statement is simply untrue.

This is not true, Sandy. It was started by Israel. I was alive in 1967 also. Just because you hear something on the news doesn't make it true.

Most of the Palistinian refugees were Jordanian citizens and Jordan cut them loose. Nothing to be proud about from either side but Isreal should be allowed to exist!

This is also not true. They were originally from what is now Israel and Occupied Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:37 PM

Yes, but Palestine was part of Jordan at the time of Isreal's creation in 47. The Palestine people were Jordanian and it was Jordan that excluded them and must bear some of the blame. Isreal should have probably been carved out of Germany as retribution but that was snot what happened. Somehow we must go forward in peace!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:52 PM

Yes, but Palestine was part of Jordan at the time of Isreal's creation in 47. The Palestine people were Jordanian and it was Jordan that excluded them and must bear some of the blame. Isreal should have probably been carved out of Germany as retribution but that was snot what happened. Somehow we must go forward in peace!

Palestine was never a part of Jordan, Sandy, and the Palestinians are not originally from what is now or what has ever been Jordan.

I agree, however, that Jordan bears some responsibility for the fact that the Palestinians have not ever had self-determination. Jordan had an agreement with the leaders of what is now Israel to divide the land that had been given to the Palestinians in the partition plan and split it with Israel. And that is exactly what happened until, in 1967, Israel took the part that Jordan acquired as a result of that agreement. On the other hand, it's entirely possible that Jordan decided to take that land because they knew that the Palestinians didn't have the military resources to defend it from being taken by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 25 May 08 - 12:38 AM

"This is not true, Sandy. It was started by Israel. I was alive in 1967 also. Just because you hear something on the news doesn't make it true."
Sorry CarolC! There have been so many wars that they run together in my mind. That should have been the one in 1973 where Egypt bears blame. In 67 Isreal struck first but under duress. The Arabs also have lots of justification. The problem is that an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 25 May 08 - 01:08 AM

I would just like to pick up the point about Mordechai Vanunu which I raised a while ago.

He served 18 years in an Israeli jail much of that time in solitary confinement.

He served the jail time for revealing that Israel was armed with nuclear weapons .In fact it is the one state in the Middle East to have these nuclear weapons. For the crime of revealing its nuclear arms to the world he was kidnapped by Israeli secret agents in Rome and drugged and brought back to Israel.

After his release from prison he renounced his faith and citizenship of Israel and sought to move to Europe. He has been living in a christian church in Jerusalem and been threatened by zionists.
The authorities have been playing cat and mouse with him and refuse to let him leave.
Israel is an aggressive state with nuclear weapons and the Observer revealed last year that much of its nuclear technology was provided by Britain.It really was like pouring oil on the fire.
Those people who have been loudly proclaiming the democracy of Israel need to face up to the question of Vanunu. Let him go!
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 08 - 01:17 AM

When people reveal the defense secrets of their own country it is called treason. In many places he'd be dead already--as in on the day of his arrest. What exactly have YOU done to help the man, "Guest, Albert"? Other than post on Mudcat that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 02:27 AM

Sorry CarolC! There have been so many wars that they run together in my mind. That should have been the one in 1973 where Egypt bears blame.

Yes, Egypt did start the war in 1973, for the purpose of taking back land that was taken from it by Israel in 1967.

In 67 Isreal struck first but under duress.

There was no danger to Israel from Egypt in 1967. Israel started this war for the purpose of taking land by conquest.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 25 May 08 - 02:57 AM

I think the revealing to the world that Israel was armed with nuclear weapons was an act of a deeply humanitarian man.....and I admire Mordechai Vanunu's courage and conscience.

There are many across the world who are thankful that this information was revealed to the wider world.Of course those in the corridors of power, in the upper echelons of the arms manufacturers the nuclear barons and the military would have already known the essential facts about Israel's nuclear weapons.

Other than the belief that he has made an outstanding contribution to the cause of peace I also know that he has undergone terrible personal suffering as a result of him telling the world's public about the nuclear weapons that Israel possesses and which are pointing at its neighbours.

The much misnamed "Peace" person above [what a sad joke that nameis ] asks what I have done to help the Vanunu.
My answer is... not enough but obviously more than you.

As a reader of Mudcat who has come upon this thread I thought I would add my comments about events in Israel.It amazes me that the Zionists writing here seem to think that to read Mudcat you have to support Israel in its ongoing oppression of the Palestinian people.
Free Mordechai and Free Palestine!
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:15 AM

Here you will find a list of Middle East Peace Resources, containing links to people, around the world, who are trying to bring peace to this situation. Perhaps far more could be done, by most of those in here, if you signed up to some of them.

Middle East Peace Resources

Carol, personally speaking, I think it would be a good thing if you let this thread now rest. All that is being accomplished here is fellow posters possibly falling out with one another, due to false accusations being made by you.

It is not what Mudcat should be about. So please, consider, and become a peace-bringer yourself, to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:36 AM

Well let's see, summer 1967.

Nasser on March 8, 1965 said:
•        We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand. We shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood.

Nothing threatening at all about that language is there CarolC?

A few months later, Nasser expressed the Arabs' goal to be:

•        ... the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel.

All he is talking about here is the removal of the political entity isn't he CarolC? He doesn't actually mean any harm to anyone does he? Wonder where all that blood was going to come from that he was talking about in March?

May 13, 1967 a Soviet parliamentary delegation visited Cairo and informed the Egyptian leaders that Israel had concentrated eleven to thirteen brigades along the Syrian border in preparation for an assault within a few days, with the intention of overthrowing the revolutionary Syrian Government. This was a complete fabrication designed by the Soviets to destabilize the Middle East. Similar false information may have been given to Egypt by the Soviets as early as May 2.

The build up and aggressive intent were denied by Israel. UN Secretary General U Thant reported that UNTSO observers on the Syrian border:

•        ... have verified the absence of troop concentrations and absence of noteworthy military movements on both sides of the [Syrian] line.

On May 15, Israel's 19th Independence Day, Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai and massing near the Israeli border.

Of course nothing threatening at all in this being done by Egypt, although CarolC maybe you can explain why it is OK for Egypt to actually mass troops on the borders of another nation, while at the same time Egypt objects when another country is accused of doing exactly the same thing.


By May 18, Syrian troops were prepared for battle along the Golan Heights.

Ah, pretty infectious this "massing-of-troops-on-the-borders-of-Israel" for no good reason. But if viewed as a sort of review or a parade I dare say you could argue that the army might as well gather there as anywhere else, but it must definitely not be viewed by anyone as being threatening eh CarolC.


On May 16, Nassar requested the withdrawal of the UN Emergency Force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956. Egyptian forces moved up to the UNEF lines and began to harrass the UN positions. Without bringing the matter to the attention of the General Assembly, as his predecessor had promised, Secretary-General U Thant complied with the demand. This was a direct violation of the conditions under which Israel had returned control of the Sinai to Egypt after the Sinai Campaign. The UN force was supposed to safeguard Israel from Egypt again closing the Straits of Tiran or launching terrorist attacks from that quarter.

Care to let us in on why Nasser ordered the UN out of Sinai CarolC? Was he concerned that they were wasting their time and that they could be better employed elsewhere? Was he concerned that they might be bored, or that they could be missing their families?


King Hussein of Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt on May 30, 1967, under which Jordan joined the Egyptian-Syrian military alliance of 1966 and placed its army on both sides of the Jordan river under Egyptian command. He had little choice since Jordan housed 700,000 Palestinian Arabs whose rioting in November 1966 almost brought down Hussein's government.

Now under what circumstances and for what reason would the ruler of one country put his armed forces under the direct command of the ruller of another nation CarolC?


On June 4, Iraq joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria. President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq added these words to the mountain of provocation:

•        The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map.

Armed forces in the Arab countries were mobilized. Israel was confronted by an Arab force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft. The armies of Kuwait, Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Iraq were contributing troops and arms to the Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian fronts.

Nothing threatening at all in that sort of concentration of military might on the borders of a fairly small country.

Quick Check:

- Arab force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft.
- Promises of Palestine soil saturated in blood
- Clearly stated aim the destruction of the State of Israel, the eradication of Israel.
- UN Peacekeepers withdrawn.
- Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map.

I take it CarolC as Prime Minister of Israel under such circumstances you would have just sat there with thumb in bum and mind in neutral and done nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:41 AM

See this thread for answers to your questions/points, Teribus...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=111199

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 25 May 08 - 06:33 AM

From Carol C, to me - "Also, you appear to think that I am the only person posting to this thread. Are you trying to silence people who post things you don't agree with?"

I do not seek to silence anyone, merely to get to them to re-consider. I also do not seek to twist or spin the words of others, or to paint them in an untrue light. I addressed part of my post to you, Carol, as, imo, you are the one dominating this thread, and saying things which are untrue about other posters. That is wrong.

As I stated above, perhaps signing up to one of the Peace Organisations would be a better thing to. You obviously have a great deal of knowledge and passion, as do others. Do not waste or abuse that passion, in making false accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 06:52 AM

From the thread that CarolC referred me to:

"Do you then dispute ANY of the following facts???" - beardedbruce

"Yes, I dispute all of that, and they are not facts." – CarolC

Let's have a look at what CarolC says aren't facts:

Fact/Non-Fact 1:
May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."

What isn't a fact CarolC? Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs did broadcast that, there exists extremely clear recordings of that broadcast – Are you saying that they didn't? If so what grounds have you for saying that they didn't.

Fact/Non-Fact 2:
May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

Again recordings of this broadcast prove it to be fact – "The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence" – Now CarolC's contention is that Egyptian troop deployments were defensive. Couple of questions for you CarolC:

1.        If defensive in nature as you say why did Egypt demand the withdrawal of the UN Peacekeepers/Observers?

2.        If that sentence quoted from the Cairo Radio broadcast is "defensive in nature" I'd hate to heard what they would broadcast if they were being belligerent. "The sole method" that Egypt was going to apply against Israel was what CarolC?

Fact/Non-Fact 3:
May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")

The closing of an International Waterway is considered to be a belligerent act by the United Nations – That CarolC is FACT, and there have been a number of international precedents where the UN have adjudicated such actions as acts of war.

Fact/Non-Fact 4:
May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

Clearly stated, there can be no denying what the man said, it is down on record. Now explain to us how someone being ready to "initiate the act of liberation itself" is being defensive? Who were the Syrian forces massed on the Golan going to "liberate"? What do you understand as being the meaning of the word "initiate"?

Fact/Non-Fact 5:
May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

Just how would Nasser achieve that objective defensively CarolC?

Fact/Non-Fact 6:
May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

Statement of fact CarolC, are you saying that Nasser did not say that on May 30th 1967? Or are you saying that he lied and that the armies of those nations were not poised on the borders of Israel?

Fact/Non-Fact 7:
May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

Fact the paper exists, simple matter of record.

Fact/Non-Fact 8:
May 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

Acting strictly defensively exactly how would the forces of Egypt and Syria "cut Israel in two" CarolC? To "cut Israel in two" wouldn't the forces of Egypt and Syria have to invade Israel?

Fact/Non-Fact 9:
May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

Are you saying that those words were not uttered by the Iraqi President CarolC?

Fact/Non-Fact 10:
June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.

Fact the paper exists, simple matter of record.


Fact/Non-Fact 10:
June 5: Six Day War begins: Israeli Airforce attacks airfields in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

Fact or are you saying that they didn't.

By the bye CarolC – Jordan did not participate in the 1973 Yom Kippur War

"The moment is coming when we will march on Damascus to overthrow the Syrian Government" (this is the reason Nasser removed the UN observers and closed the Straits of Tiran) --General Yitzhak Rabin on Israeli radio, May 11, 1967

Now that little outburst from Rabin could not in any way have been as a result of the following could it CarolC:

Jan -March 1967 -
Over 270 border "incidents" cause rising concern in Israel. March 3 - Landmine injures tractorist in Kibbutz Shamir. March 12, explosion on train tracks near Kibbutz Lahav.

March 26, 1967
2 Palestinians killed trying to demolish a water pump near Arad.

April 7, 1967
Israelis respond to intensive Syrian shelling of DMZ and and Israeli villages and kibbutzim with IAF raid. An air battle involving about 130 aircraft developed. Israelis down 6 MiG 21 fighters, 2 over the Golan and 4 over Damascus.
   
May 11, 1967
Israeli PM Eshkol states, "In view of the 14 incidents in the past month alone it is possible that we will have to adopt measures no less drastic than those of April 7." UPI circulated a rumor (May 12) that Israel was trying to topple the Syrian regime. The incidents included shelling, terror attacks and attempted infiltration of a Syrian agent to blow up locations in Jerusalem.

May 12, 1967
Remarks by Yitzhak Rabin interpreted as provocative against Syria. Rabin is rebuked by Eshkol.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:06 AM

Carol C, to me - "Please show me which accusations made by me are false."

Of course, and I have taken the liberty of putting them into 'bold'. I always think, that if you are saying that someone has 'said' something, then it is always best to quote those very words, from the poster concerned, so that all may see the words you are talking about. Perhaps it would be a good idea if you did this in future, Carol. That way, no-one can be misled, or falsely accused.

Below is the post from John, in italics, with your reply to him directly underneath:

"CarolC, you are a liar and a libeler! I have never called anyone a 'Jew hater' in the course of these discussions. And while I speak only for myself, I don't believe Peace has either.

Peace has done so numerous times right here in this thread, as well as other threads. Read the thread for yourself. I took your comments about race baiting to be an endorsement of his position in this regard. I apologize if you do not endorse those kinds of comments coming from him. "


In your post to 'peace' below, you inferred those words, without proof.

"I don't see any reason to allow other people to define my side of the argument. I'll define it myself. You, for instance, try to always frame it in terms of those who support human rights for Palestinians as being Israel haters and Jew haters/bashers. I can certainly understand why you would need to do that, though, since you're trying to defend the indefensible, and it's the best you've got. Still, most intelligent people can see right through that sort of thing."


Yet once more, in your post to John, below, you say:

"By the way, if pointing out the racism inherent in Peace's and John on the Sunset Coast's positions is "race baiting", then so is calling people "Jew haters". ............It's you and Peace who are the racists. Not the people who are working to help the Palestinians get their human rights and their freedom. "

They did not call you that, Carol. I have looked through every single post above, and nowhere have these posters used the words you have claimed they have, to you, or to anyone else. They have, however, disagreed with you. If I have overlooked the post(s) you are talking about, then perhaps you could put them in for me.


From you - "Not the people who are working to help the Palestinians get their human rights and their freedom. "


Surely both sides have the right to their human rights and their freedom? Both sides are screaming in pain, for various reasons. The Palestinian mother cries the same tears as the Israeli mother.

May I suggest you read the post below again, paying paritcular attention to the part I have 'bolded', for those words, to me, contain more wisdom and humanitarianism that any other words on this thread.

Taken from - BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:11 PM

"..................So while you folks get all teary-eyed about displaced people, save some of those tears for the other displaced people. And until such time as you demonstrate in your posts that what you seek is a solution for humans, not just Palestinian humans, I will contine to read your posts with disdain, and there will be no common ground here, either....I respect that you have views. Respect that they are not the only views.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:04 AM

Norman Finkelstein,the well known American academic and prominent critic of Israel's policies against the Palestinians has been arrested in Israel and is about to be deported.Apparently he has been told he cannot return for ten years.

He was on his way to the occupied territories when he was taken into custody.

Although there is a right of return in Israel it seems if you are a Jewish critic of the Zionist policies that are directly oppressing Palestinians you are subject to arrest and deportation.

Of course if you a member of the International Solidarity Movement protesting at the demolition of Palestinian houses you are likely to be arrested,shot at or run over by one of those huge Israeli bulldozers.

If you are a Palestinian critic you will face imprisonment,beatings or torture, a visit from a death squad or just a shell exploding in your kitchen.

albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:04 AM

Here's something new. "Iran has promised Hamas new rockets and more funds, an expression of the Islamic Republic's displeasure with recent news of renewed Israeli-Syrian peace talks, the London-based newspaper, Asharq Alawsat reported on Sunday."
Looks like Israel's neighbors are panicking at the possibility of peace with Syria which may mean end of Syrian arms support for Hamas and the other jihadist militant forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:07 AM

'Here you have TWO rights, TWO people who are right in terms of ancestral claims.'

from an interview with
Nadine Gordimer
a Jewish South African writer, political activist and Nobel Prize in literature laureate.
Her writing has long dealt with moral and racial issues, particularly apartheid in South Africa. She was active in the anti-apartheid movement, joining the African National Congress during the days when it was banned as a terrorist organization

'But all the differences aside, it appears that the strongest similarity Gordimer sees between apartheid and the struggle between Israelis and Palestinians is what she calls "Israel's brutal methods in the occupied territories."

"There is a similarity, alas, in the way Palestinians are being treated in the occupied territories, the brutal methods." '

Gordimer said she was "shocked and saddened by the behaviour of Israel in the occupied territories," asserting that Israel is "much stronger" than the Palestinians, and should therefore "restrain itself."

Though Israelis might feel their country is fighting for a just cause, Gordimer says they should feel something quite different.

"I think Israelis should feel very troubled, and indeed some Israelis feel troubled, with the brutality and lack of common humanity shown to people in the occupied territories"'

The thread is about the 'facts' and MUST include the acknowledgement of the privations of everyday life behind the 'Seperation Wall' and the work that civil rights activists and peace makers, whether Jewish, Israeli, Arab or others are doing to bring this to the attention of the world.


Please read the report of the Caritas charitable organization working with the children behind the 'Seperation Wall' these are the 'facts' of everyday life

'..... Endless paperwork must be completed and then the child will be put into an ambulance. but this ambulance is permitted to travel only a few hundred metres up to Bethlehem checkpoint. It can go no further. It can go no further because it is Palestinian. Even ambulances are not allowed passage through the checkpoints to hospitals in Israel irrespective of paperwork.'

And once the child is safely in the hospital inside Israel where are his or her parents? They are invariably stuck the other side of the Apartheid Wall to their child, unable to get permission from the Occupation to themselves visit and care for their sick children during their hospital treatment.'

'Palestine diminishes day by day. It gets smaller and smaller. It cannot thrive and its children suffer from a Failure to Thrive. It cannot develop, and its children illustrate that fact through their continued development of poverty related illnesses.'

extracts from

Behind the Wall - 'Medical Conditions caused by Political Decisions'
Window Into Palestine
Rich Wiles

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:07 AM

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
                                                                                                                  
                                                Friedrich Nietzsche

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:26 AM

I have heard Norman Finkelstein. His hatred for Zionism is equal to or exceeds yours Albert except that he publicly states his wishes that the Israeli state lose a future military conflict in a big way and be overthrown and eliminated. He went there to espouse hate speeches, not to live, and as a visiting guest to any country this is not necessarily a right to enter. It was most likely a publicity stunt because he knew he'd be turned away, and now Albert and company can make propaganda of it all, especially because he is Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:27 AM

A call from
Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP), one of the largest American Jewish peace organizations dedicated to promoting an American foreign policy in the Middle East based on democracy, human rights, and respect for international law

'Although Israel supposedly disengaged from Gaza more than two years ago, its 1.5 million residents have been under a near total siege since June 2007. Gaza's borders — land, air and sea — are controlled by Israel. All major entry and exit points have been sealed, making it almost impossible for residents to work. Access to vaccines, dairy products, fresh foods and clean water have been severely limited since June 2006, when Israel shelled Gaza's main electric power generator.

In September of this year (2007), the humanitarian crisis deepened when the Israeli Cabinet authorized further cuts of fuel and electricity. Israel justified this move by saying it was a response to Qassam rockets fired into Israel by militants in Gaza. But Israel's actions amount to collective punishment of civilians — a violation of international law.

In just the past four months, 10 Gazans have died as a direct result of being denied medical attention, a basic human right. As one young Palestinian mother, Laila el-Haddad, wrote in her blog: "We are prisoners constantly waiting and helplessly hoping for decisions to be made that determine whether (we) live or die — both figuratively and literally."

The situation in the West Bank is not much better. Residents there are subject to daily humiliations at hundreds of checkpoints throughout their territory. In addition, Israel continues to build the Separation Wall, which cuts Palestinians off from each other. It also continues to expand settlements on expropriated Palestinian land, despite the supposed freeze on such activity. In September, Israel took over a five-square-mile area in the West Bank, east of Jerusalem, where it plans to build 3,500 houses, a hotel and an industrial park.'


BUT
.. it doesn't have to be this way.

Jews of conscience must speak out against human rights abuses committed by Israel in our name.

As American citizens who end up funding the Israeli occupation through our taxes, we also are obligated to speak up and act.

There are a number of ways to directly help people in Palestine. One can donate to organizations that provide humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza, such as Middle East Children's Alliance, or join local groups like Madison Friends of Jewish Voice for Peace or the Madison-Rafah Sister City Project.'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:51 AM

To hear and see Prof Finkelstein in his own words discuss the situation in Lebanon and Israel go to LIVELEAK and type his name into the search box at the top of the page.
He is a stern and outspoken critic of the attack on Lebanon and a defender of the right to resist such an attack.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:57 AM

If Canada, a soverign nation, were to allow a terrorist group to set up camp in southern Ontario, and they used that base to launch rockets at Detroit what would be the response of the USA? If Canada refused or was unable to control them would the USA invade and if so would it be justified? Would they call bombing Detroit an act of war?
This is the basket case that is the middle east.
If your neighbours don't throw rocks at your house, perhaps you won't feel the need to to throw bricks at theirs!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 09:07 AM

Guest, Peace-bringer, how are you able to post under multiple user names and not have your posts get deleted?

As I stated above, perhaps signing up to one of the Peace Organisations would be a better thing to. You obviously have a great deal of knowledge and passion, as do others. Do not waste or abuse that passion, in making false accusations.

As far as I am concerned, I have not made any false accusations. Your accusation, however, I do consider false.

They did not call you that, Carol. I have looked through every single post above, and nowhere have these posters used the words you have claimed they have, to you, or to anyone else. They have, however, disagreed with you. If I have overlooked the post(s) you are talking about, then perhaps you could put them in for me.

The terminology isn't always exactly the same, but the meaning is...

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace - PM
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:36 PM

These anti-Israel folks do NOT care about humans. Only those they think are human. And from their posts, it's obvious they think Jews are not worthy of the same consideration they feel the Palestinians should have. Will they speak against Hezbollah or Hamas? NO! For to do so would not be in their game plan because they would then have to admit that the people representing the Palestinian people are fu#king murderers. If I knew how to do the spit word in writing, it would go here.


Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Peace - PM
Date: 11 May 08 - 07:07 PM

I'd suggest that the thread be completely abandoned by people who don't hate Israel or Jews. Then the people who do will be able to have reasoned discourse amongst themselves

(This last one implies that anyone who continues to discuss the subject hates Israel and Jews.)

In response to this from me...

"But the fact is, those people went on to become the government of Israel. So should we hold all Israelis responsible for their terrorist government? No, we shouldn't. That would be racist. As is holding all of the Palestinians in Gaza responsible for Hamas."

He posted this...

YOUR racism is showing, lady. Make it parallel."


There were also several on a thread that got deleted and on other threads, but I don't think Joe wants me going back and quoting all of them here in this thread.


I've already said why I am focusing on what Israel is doing and not on what Hamas and Hezbollah are doing. You can see it for yourself right here in this thread. My reason is because focusing on Hamas and Hezbolla won't solve the problem. Their existence is a response to the problem. We can see what the problem is when people say (as has been said in this thread by at least one poster) that they support an independent state for the Palestinians, but when asked if they think Israel should withdraw to the pre-1967 borders, there is no answer. Such people say they support a Palestinian state, but they don't. They are only paying lip service to a Palestinian state. What such people really want is for Israel to continue exactly as it's doing, but they want to be able to claim the moral high ground by saying they "support" an independent state for the Palestinians.

Let me ask you this "Peace-bringer"... do you support the idea of Israel withdrawing to the pre-1967 lines?

It's not peace that you are bringing, "Peace-bringer". It is suppression of the truth. A great libel and a great injustice has been committed against the Palestinians. Until this is addressed and corrected, there won't be any peace in the Middle East. This is why in South Africa, they have a "Truth and Reconciliation" policy. Reconciliation isn't possible as long as the truth is being suppressed.

With regard to this from Peace that you quoted...

And until such time as you demonstrate in your posts that what you seek is a solution for humans, not just Palestinian human

The solution for the Palestinian humans is also the solution for everyone else. Until this problem is addressed, none of the other problems will be solved. This one is the linchpin. The problem is Israel's expansionist policies. These policies are creating instability and wars and violence all throughout the Middle East. This is the problem that needs to be corrected. Once that happens, everything else falls into place.


As I stated above, perhaps signing up to one of the Peace Organisations would be a better thing to.

Not necessarily. There are many ways people can make a difference. Helping to bring the truth to the surface is as valid a way to help as any other. Without people doing this, the problem will never be solved, because the kinds of lies that have been and are being told about the Palestinians and Israel's neighbors spread hatred, and they also are being used to justify Israel continuing to do whatever it wants to whomever it wants.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 09:14 AM

Teribus, it's a fact that Egypt's military capabilities did not pose a threat to Israel. It's also a fact that the Israeli government and military knew that fact, Egypt's rhetoric notwithstanding. The documentation is in the thread I linked to.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 25 May 08 - 09:19 AM

I would like to add some comments about American academic Norman Finkelstein who has just been deprted from Israel for criticising Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and other neighbbouring countries.

Finkelstein's mother who came from an ultra orthodox background was a survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto and also survived the Majdanek Death camp and two other slave camps.

Her first husband who was also in the Ghetto died in the war.Her second husband,father to Norman, survived Auschwitz. All his relatives were killed in the Holocaust.

Finkelstein is hated by the Zionists for many reasons notably his defence of the Palestinian people and their right to resist Israeli attacks and oppression.

He was also the author of a study which demolished claims that Palestine was an empty or near empty land when the Zionists took over....although this mention of his work does no justice to the scholarly book that he published.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 09:29 AM

If Canada, a soverign nation, were to allow a terrorist group to set up camp in southern Ontario, and they used that base to launch rockets at Detroit what would be the response of the USA? If Canada refused or was unable to control them would the USA invade and if so would it be justified? Would they call bombing Detroit an act of war?
This is the basket case that is the middle east.
If your neighbours don't throw rocks at your house, perhaps you won't feel the need to to throw bricks at theirs!

I think this analogy is not very accurate. I think a more accurate analogy would be this: if someone is standing on your neck with a big old boot, you're going to do whatever you can to try to get it off, even if it means jabbing your fountain pen in his leg. The guy with the boot would be Israel and the guy under his foot would be the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 May 08 - 09:48 AM

My grandfather's entire town's Jewish population was sent to Tremblinka and perished- does that give me some kind of credential too?

Finkelstein is no friend of Israel. Scholarly and in favor of Palestinian terrorist methods to achieve their goals equals not friendly. That's not too hard to figure out. I think Israel should welcome with open arms those who speak of peace methods to resolve the issue, whoever they may be, or whatever happened to their parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 10:29 AM

So CarolC, from your post of 25 May 08 - 09:14 AM in reply to points posed to you in my post of 25 May 08 - 06:52 AM we can take it then that you were in error when you stated in response to the question

Do you then dispute ANY of the following facts???" - beardedbruce

"Yes, I dispute all of that, and they are not facts." – CarolC

Now as to your contention that in 1967 - "it's a fact that Egypt's military capabilities did not pose a threat to Israel. It's also a fact that the Israeli government and military knew that fact,"

Yes I'd agree with that, and I am sure that most of the IDF Senior Commanders of that time would agree with you. I am totally convinced that in the event of hostilities breaking out the Israeli military would be confident that they could beat Egypt.

Now here is the fly in the ointment CarolC, because it wasn't just Egypt was it? Egypt's rhetoric was extremely belligerent because Nasser had put together a coalition of Arab Armies and had got them drawn up and fully mobilised on Israel's borders. A combined enemy force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft, positioned as it was on your borders poses an undeniable threat CarolC, irrespective of how confident you might be in the capability of your own troops.

In June 1967 the Israelis were faced with the same problem Napoleon had in 1815, he was confident that with his Army he could defeat those who opposed him - but only if he could face them one at a time. To orchestrate that you must ensure that you direct events, you must take and hold the initiative, hence Napoleon's surprise advance through Charleroi on June 14th 1815, and the Israeli Air strikes of June 5th 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 25 May 08 - 10:51 AM

Palestinian suffering has been terrible for far too long but Israel has only been a part of the problem. Other Arab and Persian states in the area have fanned the flames for their own reasons disrupting all peace efforts. Others such as the defunct Soviet Union played the deadly game from a safe distance.
Why do not other Arab states offer citizenship to Palestinians who have lived within their borders for three generations? Why disrupt every effort to find a peacefull solution? Why does Israel not withdraw from all those damn settlements as they promised? Why does any country arm in the middle east?
The answer my friend, is blown in the wind!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 25 May 08 - 10:58 AM

"Let me ask you this "Peace-bringer"... do you support the idea of Israel withdrawing to the pre-1967 lines?"

I support the work of all people who are trying to bring humans together, without lines, (1967 or 2008) religions, history, lists of previous wrong doings, occupations, or bombs dropped. This situation will never heal whilst there are those who will not let things settle. The past is past. The people of the present have to heal, so that the people of the future can live their lives in peace. No lines should be drawn in the sand, nor walls built. The land belongs to all.

We are people, first and foremost, before we are 'religions'. When the day comes that Jew can take the hand of Muslim, and Muslim the hand of Jew, and realise their hands are exactly the same, then we will be getting somewhere. It is, of course, already happening, but the powers that be choose to focus on the bad, not the good, thus continuing the tragedy on both sides. If the media focussed upon the wonderful things that are happening, then that good feeling would spread far and wide.

"The solution for the Palestinian humans is also the solution for everyone else."

Exactly. That is what 'peace' was saying, I believe. This needs "a solution for humans" , as he stated. Remove the word 'Palestinian' or 'Jew' and see how easy the solution becomes.

However, you then go on to once again, bring in blame.

"Until this problem is addressed, none of the other problems will be solved. This one is the linchpin. The problem is Israel's expansionist policies. These policies are creating instability and wars and violence all throughout the Middle East. This is the problem that needs to be corrected. Once that happens, everything else falls into place."

No, everything will only fall into place once both sides recognise that at different times, both have been wrong, and both have been right. The sooner that is accepted and all the humans involved in this sad story are able to see each other as brothers, not enemies, the better it will be for all.

Israel has been wrong, Palestine has been wrong. You can either argue about it, for eternity, or move on, to peace. You state your words above, I could also state the Palestinian leaders have been training children to hate and kill, and so the 'blame' would go on, ad infinitum. There is much wrong in all of this, on both sides, driven by extremists, who revel in hatred, and in keeping that hatred alive. It is the ordinary people who need to win this war, and they need to win it peacefully.   

It cannot be a 'You stop first' situation. It can only be "We both stop together'

This hatred can only be stopped by love.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 11:04 AM

Ok, Teribus, let's have a look at them one at a time.


Do you then dispute ANY of the following facts???

May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."

What "fact" is contained in this quote for me to dispute or not dispute?


May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

Again, what "fact" is contained in this quote for me to dispute or not dispute?


May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")

What "fact" is beardedbruce stating here? Is it the fact that Nasser made an announcement, or that he blockaded the Straits of Tiran? Or is it that Johnson made that statement? Or that the statement that Johnson made is accurate?

May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

Is the "fact" that el-Assad said what he did, or that that he had the military might to back it up?

May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

May 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.

June 5: Six Day War begins: Israeli Airforce attacks airfields in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

Again, what is the "fact" in each of these that can either be disputed or not disputed?


Now here is the fly in the ointment CarolC, because it wasn't just Egypt was it? Egypt's rhetoric was extremely belligerent because Nasser had put together a coalition of Arab Armies and had got them drawn up and fully mobilised on Israel's borders. A combined enemy force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft, positioned as it was on your borders poses an undeniable threat CarolC, irrespective of how confident you might be in the capability of your own troops.

Except that Israel had already announced its decision to invade Syria and overthrow its government (documentation in the other thread). Egypt's mobilizing of forces on its border happened after Israel made this announcement. Egypt and Syria were responding to this announcement from Israel. They were in the defensive posture in response to Israel's announcement that it was going to attack Syria and overthrow its government.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: goatfell
Date: 25 May 08 - 11:09 AM

Children please this is how wars are started I mean look at the middle east

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 11:16 AM

Why do not other Arab states offer citizenship to Palestinians who have lived within their borders for three generations?

Because it is illegal under international law and the UN charter for Israel to not allow these people to return to their homes.

Why disrupt every effort to find a peacefull solution?

All of the Arab countries in the region have said that they will make peace with Israel if Israel will withdraw to the pre-1967 borders. Since the pre-1967 borders are the only legal ones under international law and the UN charter, their position is the reasonable (and legal) one. So in this case, it is Israel that is disrupting every effort to find a peaceful solution.

Keeping the Palestinians confined to tiny bantustans, unable to move from village to village, or to access their orchards or other places where they make their livelihood, or to visit their family in other villages, or to use their own water resources does not produce peace. Sorry, but I know that if someone was doing that to you or your loved ones, you wouldn't stand for it. Why should they?


Why does Israel not withdraw from all those damn settlements as they promised?...

The answer my friend, is blown in the wind!

The answer is because they are in the process of ethnically cleansing all of the Palestinians from occupied Palestine. The reason they need to do this is to preserve their "demographic". If they annex the West Bank and East Jerusalem while there is still a Palestinian majority in those areas, they will lose the Jewish majority in Israel. So they have to coerce the Palestinians into leaving so that they can annex the Palestinians' areas and make them a part of Israel without upsetting their demographic.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 11:44 AM

I support the work of all people who are trying to bring humans together, without lines, (1967 or 2008) religions, history, lists of previous wrong doings, occupations, or bombs dropped. This situation will never heal whilst there are those who will not let things settle. The past is past. The people of the present have to heal, so that the people of the future can live their lives in peace. No lines should be drawn in the sand, nor walls built. The land belongs to all.

The past is not the past as long as the lies are still being told and they are still being used as an excuse to withhold any kind of human rights from the Palestinians. The continuing use of these lies to promote the agenda of removing the Palestinians from occupied Palestine drags the past kicking and screaming into the future. The Palestinians of the present cannot heal until Israel stops what it is doing to them and leaves them alone.

We are people, first and foremost, before we are 'religions'. When the day comes that Jew can take the hand of Muslim, and Muslim the hand of Jew, and realise their hands are exactly the same, then we will be getting somewhere.

They could do it now. All of the Arab countries in the region would love to shake the hands of the leaders of Israel over an agreement for Israel to withdraw to the pre-1967 borders. It's not because of hatred of Jews that the problem exists. It's because of Israel's expansionist policies that the problem exists.

Exactly. That is what 'peace' was saying, I believe.

I disagree. Peace has been attacking people who speak out for human rights for Palestinians for a very long time.

This needs "a solution for humans" , as he stated. Remove the word 'Palestinian' or 'Jew' and see how easy the solution becomes.

This is irrelevant to anything I have said, because I don't frame it in terms of Palestinian or Jew. Peace does frame it this way, and that is a big part of why what he is doing is an attack. I frame it in terms of the government of Israel and the Zionist leadership (and their supporters), and the people who do not support the government of Israel and the Zionist leadership. Nevertheless, you show me how removing the word "Palestinian" from the equation stops Israel's expansionist policy.

No, everything will only fall into place once both sides recognise that at different times, both have been wrong, and both have been right. The sooner that is accepted and all the humans involved in this sad story are able to see each other as brothers, not enemies, the better it will be for all.

How can it if Israel is denying the Palestinians any citizenship to any country or any human rights whatever. For you to say this is like saying that the solution to apartheid in South Africa or slavery or segregation in the US south was to see that both sides have been wrong at different times and to be able to see the Whites in those countries as brothers. I tell you what. Watch the videos that I have posted links to in this thread. You tell me how what you are proposing is going to stop the house demolitions, the theft of land, the appropriation of water resources, the denial of movement of goods and people from one part of occupied Palestine to another, the settler attacks, the IDF forces urinating on the roofs of Palestinian houses and on Palestinians who are walking down the street. You tell me how the Palestinians can forget this situation that is crushing the very life out of them and their society as we speak, by seeing the people who are doing this to them as anything other than enemies.

Israel has been wrong, Palestine has been wrong. You can either argue about it, for eternity, or move on, to peace

You talk about it like it's in the past. It isn't. The Palestinians are living under apartheid right now. And this is what is making peace impossible. You can't ethnically cleanse a people and expect them to not react in a way that you don't like. I know you wouldn't put up with what they are being subjected to. Why should they?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 12:04 PM

It's a good step, GUEST, but as long as people continue to use the old lies as an excuse to justify the continuation of what is being done to the Palestinians (and there have been many right here in the Mudcat), the problem will not be solved.

Go back and watch the videos I've posted links to. In one of them, former members of the Israeli military are saying that the only way for this situation to be resolved is for people to speak up about it. They are saying that the situation is driven by US public opinion. US public opinion will never change from that of continuing to give Israel unconditional support no matter what it is doing to the Palestinians if people aren't ever exposed to the truth. These former soldiers are saying that Israelis don't know what is being done to the Palestinians in their name, and that if they did know about it, they wouldn't stand for it. I believe them. They are in a position to know. And they are saying that we in the US need to get the word out about the reality in occupied Palestine and to pressure our politicians to stop supporting Israel unconditionally. This is what is needed in order for the problem to be solved.

South African apartheid, and slavery and segregation in the US were eliminated in just this way. Silence about what was being done to Blacks in these situations did not bring about the end to these institutions. It was people speaking up about them that ended them. It is no different with this situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 12:22 PM

Ok, CarolC, let's have a look at them one at a time.

"Do you then dispute ANY of the following facts???" - beardedbruce

May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."

What "fact" is contained in this quote for me to dispute or not dispute? - CarolC

How about the fact that Egypt is clearly stating its hostile intent toward Israel? Which is rather at odds with your contention that Egypt's posture was purely defensive. Egypt is clearly under no threat from Israel. Egypt, according to you has massed its troops on Israel's borders in support of Syria, who you say has been threatened by Israel. So I presume that if Israel had attacked Syria, those Egyptian forces would have attacked Israel, in which case their deployment and positions could only have been geared towards the offensive not the defensive.

May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

"Again, what "fact" is contained in this quote for me to dispute or not dispute?" - CarolC

How about the fact that Egypt had ordered the UN Peacekeepers out of Sinai? Now why would they do that if as you say their posture was defensive? Once more they factually and categorically state their intent to wage total war against Israel.

May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")

"What "fact" is beardedbruce stating here? Is it the fact that Nasser made an announcement, or that he blockaded the Straits of Tiran? Or is it that Johnson made that statement? Or that the statement that Johnson made is accurate?" - CarolC

The fact that Egypt blockaded the Straits of Tiran in contravention of international law. In doing so Egypt stood guilty of a belligerent act against a sovereign country recognised by the United Nations - I'd say that that was a pretty important fact wouldn't you CarolC.

May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

"Is the "fact" that el-Assad said what he did, or that that he had the military might to back it up?" - CarolC

The facts stated here are that Syria's armed forces are mobilised, in position and ready not only to defend against any Israeli attack but to invade Israel. By the way CarolC why is it right for Assad to state this as a recognised member of the Syrian Government, while it is reprehensible for an Israeli Army Officer (i.e. not a member of any government hence no real authority) to make a similar threat against Syria

May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

May 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.

June 5: Six Day War begins: Israeli Airforce attacks airfields in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

"Again, what is the "fact" in each of these that can either be disputed or not disputed?" - CarolC

Well you must know CarolC because didn't you say this:

"Yes, I dispute all of that, and they are not facts."

Are you attempting to convince people on this forum that those things did not happen? That those statements were not made? If you are then you must surely be delusional because all are well documented, recorded matters of fact.

"Now here is the fly in the ointment CarolC, because it wasn't just Egypt was it? Egypt's rhetoric was extremely belligerent because Nasser had put together a coalition of Arab Armies and had got them drawn up and fully mobilised on Israel's borders. A combined enemy force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft, positioned as it was on your borders poses an undeniable threat CarolC, irrespective of how confident you might be in the capability of your own troops." - Teribus

"Except that Israel had already announced its decision to invade Syria and overthrow its government (documentation in the other thread)." - CarolC

Really? Who exactly in the Israeli Government announced that Israel had decided to invade Syria and overthrow its government?

"Egypt's mobilizing of forces on its border happened after Israel made this announcement." - CarolC

But Israel didn't make any such announcement did it CarolC?

"Egypt and Syria were responding to this announcement from Israel. They were in the defensive posture in response to Israel's announcement that it was going to attack Syria and overthrow its government." - CarolC

Complete and utter bunkum CarolC.

Now how do you explain the following, could this in any way be described as provocation?:

Jan -March 1967 - Over 270 border "incidents" cause rising concern in Israel.

March 3rd 1967 - Landmine injures tractorist in Kibbutz Shamir. March 12, explosion on train tracks near Kibbutz Lahav.

March 26, 1967
2 Palestinians killed trying to demolish a water pump near Arad.

April 7, 1967
Israelis respond to intensive Syrian shelling of DMZ and and Israeli villages and kibbutzim with IAF raid. An air battle involving about 130 aircraft developed. Israelis down 6 MiG 21 fighters, 2 over the Golan and 4 over Damascus.
   
May 11, 1967
Israeli PM Eshkol states, "In view of the 14 incidents in the past month alone it is possible that we will have to adopt measures no less drastic than those of April 7."

UPI circulated a rumor (May 12) that Israel was trying to topple the Syrian regime. The incidents included shelling, terror attacks and attempted infiltration of a Syrian agent to blow up locations in Jerusalem.

May 12, 1967
Remarks by Yitzhak Rabin interpreted as provocative against Syria. Rabin (Not a member of the Israeli Government) is rebuked by Eshkol (Prime Minister of Israel and as such very much a member of the Israeli Government).

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 12:25 PM

Here's a link to the video with the former Israeli soldiers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo&feature=related


This is how peace is going to be accomplished... by giving the Palestinians a voice for the first time and opening a window to the world on what is being done to them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsesMjWkAl8&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 08 - 12:50 PM

Oh, Carol.

Waaay back you accused me of supporting ethnic cleansing. Of course, I don't. So you dipsy doodle along making stuff up as you go. You are a spiteful individual, and you cry foul when people return your vitriol in kind. In two words, die screaming. Why not, huh? It's what you wish for Isrealis.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 01:17 PM

How about the fact that Egypt is clearly stating its hostile intent toward Israel? Which is rather at odds with your contention that Egypt's posture was purely defensive. Egypt is clearly under no threat from Israel. Egypt, according to you has massed its troops on Israel's borders in support of Syria, who you say has been threatened by Israel. So I presume that if Israel had attacked Syria, those Egyptian forces would have attacked Israel, in which case their deployment and positions could only have been geared towards the offensive not the defensive.

He did this on May 17th. Israel had already announced its plans to attack Syria and overthrow its government on May 11th. Since Egypt had a mutual defense agreement with Syria, Egypt was obligated to do what it could to assist. This is a defensive posture as is the US' assurances that it will come to Israel's aid if it is attacked.

How about the fact that Egypt had ordered the UN Peacekeepers out of Sinai? Now why would they do that if as you say their posture was defensive? Once more they factually and categorically state their intent to wage total war against Israel.

Egypt was posturing for deterrence purposes. Even the government of Israel took it as such.

The fact that Egypt blockaded the Straits of Tiran in contravention of international law. In doing so Egypt stood guilty of a belligerent act against a sovereign country recognised by the United Nations - I'd say that that was a pretty important fact wouldn't you CarolC.

This was done in response to Israel's announcement of its plans to attack Syria and overthrow its government. Attacking Syria and overthrowing its government is in contravention of international law. Announcing an intention to attack Syria (a sovereign country recognised by the United Nations), and overthrow its government was a belligerant act by Israel. Syria had a right to defend itself from such an attack, and Egypt had an obligation to assist in its defense.


The facts stated here are that Syria's armed forces are mobilised, in position and ready not only to defend against any Israeli attack but to invade Israel. By the way CarolC why is it right for Assad to state this as a recognised member of the Syrian Government, while it is reprehensible for an Israeli Army Officer (i.e. not a member of any government hence no real authority) to make a similar threat against Syria

This was the announcement by Yitzhak Rabin on May 11. At the time, he was the chief of staff of the Israeli armed forces. Assad was responding to Israel's stated intention to attack his country and overthrow its government. He had a right to defend his country. He also had a right to use whatever deterrents he could employ to prevent Israel from doing so, including verbal threats about what the consequences to Israel if it followed through on its announced plans.

"Yes, I dispute all of that, and they are not facts."

Are you attempting to convince people on this forum that those things did not happen? That those statements were not made? If you are then you must surely be delusional because all are well documented, recorded matters of fact.

Ok, I will rephrase. I dispute the idea that they support beardedbruce's contention, and they are random quotes in which whatever "facts" they are supposed to represent have not been identified by beardedbruce.

Really? Who exactly in the Israeli Government announced that Israel had decided to invade Syria and overthrow its government?

The chief of staff of the Israel armed forces. This from Wikipedia...

"Chiefs of staff typically have no personal or positional power of their own, acting only on behalf and with the authority of their superior."


But Israel didn't make any such announcement did it CarolC?

The chief of staff of the Israeli armed forces made the announcement on behalf of his superiors.


Jan -March 1967 - Over 270 border "incidents" cause rising concern in Israel.

Many of these "border incidents were instigated by Israel.

March 3rd 1967 - Landmine injures tractorist in Kibbutz Shamir. March 12, explosion on train tracks near Kibbutz Lahav.

I'd like to see some references for this incident that don't all come from the same source. When I google "kibbutz shamire" landmine 1967, and "kibbutz lahav" explosion "train tracks", the only references that come up are all with the exact same wording, and all of them from sources that one couldn't really call impartial.

March 26, 1967
2 Palestinians killed trying to demolish a water pump near Arad.

I can only find one reference to this, and it is one of the same sources from which the other events are listed.

April 7, 1967
Israelis respond to intensive Syrian shelling of DMZ and and Israeli villages and kibbutzim with IAF raid. An air battle involving about 130 aircraft developed. Israelis down 6 MiG 21 fighters, 2 over the Golan and 4 over Damascus.

Syria was not shelling the DMZ intensively. Israel was violating the DMZ by plowing it up with armored tractors and bulldozers, and approaching the Syrian border. As the armored tractors and bulldozers approached the Syrian border, Syrian forces fired on them. The UN observer in the video I posted in the other thread witnessed these events. He said that Israel was doing it deliberately to provoke the Syrians into responding so they could use the response as a pretext for attacking Syria.
   
May 11, 1967
Israeli PM Eshkol states, "In view of the 14 incidents in the past month alone it is possible that we will have to adopt measures no less drastic than those of April 7."

Pretexts.

UPI circulated a rumor (May 12) that Israel was trying to topple the Syrian regime. The incidents included shelling, terror attacks and attempted infiltration of a Syrian agent to blow up locations in Jerusalem.

UPI must have heard that Israel was trying to topple the Syrian regime from the chief if staff of the Israeli armed forces, acting on behalf of his superiors. And again, Israel conveniently leaves out the incidents for which it is itself responsible.

Account given by a UN observer who was there at the time...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4144954716305864975

May 12, 1967
Remarks by Yitzhak Rabin interpreted as provocative against Syria. Rabin (Not a member of the Israeli Government) is rebuked by Eshkol (Prime Minister of Israel and as such very much a member of the Israeli Government).

The chief of staff acts on behalf of his superiors, which include the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 01:19 PM

Waaay back you accused me of supporting ethnic cleansing. Of course, I don't. So you dipsy doodle along making stuff up as you go. You are a spiteful individual, and you cry foul when people return your vitriol in kind. In two words, die screaming. Why not, huh? It's what you wish for Isrealis.

Attempting to silence people who are speaking out against ethnic cleansing is a real and active form of support for ethnic cleansing. If you don't intend to support ethnic cleansing, stop trying to silence people who are speaking out against it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 02:29 PM

GUEST,"Peace-bringer", are you an authority figure here in the Mudcat? If you are, I think you should identify yourself. If not, Joe has instructed us to discuss the subject of the thread and not the other people posting to the thread. Discussing me is pretty much the only thing you have done in this thread. We have been told that that is considered "combative" behavior.