BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 03:10 PM

Thank you CarolC for confirming that no member of the Israeli Government announced any paln on the part of Israel to invade Syria and topple the Government of that country.

Therefore in future do not state that the Israeli Government threatened to invade Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 25 May 08 - 03:43 PM

Only a few months ago Israeli warplanes attacked Syria with high explosives and of course still occupies the Syrian Golan Height where I understand it has just built its first US style shopping mall.I am sure those Syrian who have been exiled from the Golan must be very impressed with the discounts and bargains!
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 May 08 - 03:46 PM

To say that the 1967 six day was fought for the defence of Israeli aggression is the typical pathetic anti-Israeli view of real historical events. Israel knew it could win militarily over Egypt only if could could take out a lot of their air force and tanks first in the impending inevitable conflict- otherwise they could just wait for the surrounding storm coming at their small state from all sides leading to their complete doom. Get over it and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:00 PM

Albert - I suppose you know why they attacked that area in Syria recently? Just to start a war?- I don't think so. The Syrians were downright embarrased as to what was going on there, and the Israelis figured it out. Some North Koreans were killed in the strike , but the world didn't here much credible defence on their part or the Syrian part as to what they were doing there. As I said they are in peace negotiations with Syria now- something Hamas and Hezbolla don't seem to like too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 05:09 PM

Thank you CarolC for confirming that no member of the Israeli Government announced any paln on the part of Israel to invade Syria and topple the Government of that country.

Therefore in future do not state that the Israeli Government threatened to invade Syria.

Ok.

The Israeli government's plan to invade Syria was announced by the chief of staff of the Israeli armed forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 05:22 PM

To say that the 1967 six day was fought for the defence of Israeli aggression is the typical pathetic anti-Israeli view of real historical events.

Heh. Here we go with the anti-Israel stuff again.   This is an accusation that has no merit. It is used as a smear tactic in the absence of a legitimate argument.

Israel knew it could win militarily over Egypt only if could could take out a lot of their air force and tanks first in the impending inevitable conflict- otherwise they could just wait for the surrounding storm coming at their small state from all sides leading to their complete doom. Get over it and move on.

Egypt didn't want war with Israel. That's why the government of Egypt had scheduled to meet with the US government for talks and negotiations. Israel stepped up the timetable for its attack so that these talks could not take place. It did so because it wanted war. Syria did not want war, either. And Jordan did not want war. Israel did everything it possibly could, including bombing villages in Jordan and violating the DMZ between Israel and Syria in order to provoke a response from these countries to use as a pretext for war. Watch the video that I posted with the eyewitness account from the UN observer. They all knew that they were not in a position to win a war with Israel. Only Israel wanted war. And they knew they could win it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 05:46 PM

"The Israeli government's plan to invade Syria was announced by the chief of staff of the Israeli armed forces." - CarolC

Eh No it was not CarolC. High Ranking Staff Officers do not set Government Policy and have no authority to speak on matters of Government Policy. Immediately after making the remarks that he did make on Israeli Radio Rabin was rebuked by none other than the Prime Minister. Don't know about you CarolC but I reckon to be given a bollocking by a Prime Minister, you've got to have screwed up in a fairly major way.

There was no Israeli Government Plan to invade Syria and topple the Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 08 - 06:38 PM

Some anti-Israel person said earlier in the thread that the Six Day War was between Israel and Egypt. Pray tell, WHY were Jordan, Syria, Kuwait, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Algeria also involved--they sent troops and arms. And all in six days. They are marvels of organization by the looks of it. Wow. In just six days. I am amazed.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 08 - 06:40 PM

Would someone besides you know who answer? I'd like to read the response. But not from that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:32 PM

There is a concise synopsis of the Six Days War at this site http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/9999/6day1967.htm which appears to be a neutral military history site.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:37 PM

Dayan was a genius, imo. Small point: the French did not give the Mirage to Israel. Agents in France 'purloined' the design.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:38 PM

Looked at the numbers, Bobad. Seems like a fair fight to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 May 08 - 09:41 PM

Re: Jewish Voice of Peace: In quoting this organization on May 25th, Emma B refers to it as "one of the largest Jewish American peace organizations." Well, I don't know what that subjective term means, and I had never previously heard of JVP (which of course is neither here nor there) so I visited their web site this evening.

JVP appears to be a group founded about a dozen years ago, which now has nine chapters in the country which includes three in northern California; it is headquartered in Oakland, CA. From the few pictures I found on their website, their rallies seem to draw rather sparse crowds. In fact, their description of one of their rallies mentions a crowd of 200-300 persons, which I would consider pretty small in todays' world of rallies.

One thing that struck me as a positive position is that JVP seems open to the possibility of a two state solution to the Israel/Palestine problem...although this is not their first option. That is a far more open position from that of many individuals and other organizations which blame Israel first.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 01:29 AM

Back to Arnie...
Yes the Israelis did attack Syria with warplanes and high explosives just a few weeks ago.
Although there have been some kind of negotiations between Syria and Israel since then I think they will not amount to much as Syria wants the Golan Heights back and Israel wont give it up.So a further stand off there.
What is alarming in all this is the possibility of an American attack on Iran which will be Bush's parting gift to the world before he leaves office in November while Hillery Clinton said recently she had no problem with a US attack on Iran.
Meanwhile,Israel,the one nuclear stae in the Middle East continues to attack its neighbours in Lebanon ,Gaza and Syria and is one of the most powerful military force in the world thanks to American military,economic,technological and financial aid.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:45 AM

"Although there have been some kind of negotiations between Syria and Israel since then I think they will not amount to much as Syria wants the Golan Heights back and Israel wont give it up.So a further stand off there." - Albert

Oh I don't think the picture is as bleak as you would like to paint it Albert. The Israelis and Syrians have been in negotiations before and came quite close to a settlement that suited both sides. The stumbling block was not return of the Golan which Israel under agreed terms would be only too pleased to return to Syria. The problem the last time was water.

"What is alarming in all this is the possibility of an American attack on Iran which will be Bush's parting gift to the world before he leaves office in November" - Albert

Of course Albert I suppose all things are "possible" but your second doom-and-gloom prediction is hardly "probable" is it. What are you basing this opinion of yours on? I mean, let's see, there remains just over seven months of GWB's Presidency, he does not control the House of Representatives or the Senate, so how on earth is he going to get Congressional approval for a war with Iran?

"...while Hillery Clinton said recently she had no problem with a US attack on Iran." - Albert

OK Albert, tell us in Hillary Clinton's own words the circumstances under which she would have no problem with a US attack on Iran - Or in doing that does that spoil your storyline a bit too much. If you or anyone else reading this thread are unaware of the facts, the circumstances that would call for a US attack on Iran is IF Iran first attacked Israel ("I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran if it attacks Israel" - HRC). Should that (Iranian attack on Israel) happen Albert you could quite accurately have said, "ANY person holding the Office of President of the United States of America, Barak Obama included, would have no problem with a US attack on Iran", because Albert the US is obligated by Treaty to come to the aid of Israel if Israel is attacked.

"Meanwhile,Israel,the one nuclear state in the Middle East continues to attack its neighbours in Lebanon ,Gaza and Syria and is one of the most powerful military force in the world thanks to American military,economic,technological and financial aid." - Albert

- Lebanon Albert? Israel is not attacking anyone in Lebanon. It briefly responded to a border incursion and raid by members of Hezbollah in 2006 in which two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped and a number of others died. Israel responded to some 15,000 rocket attacks based from South Lebanon. Had there been no raid, no kidnapping and no rocket attacks there would have been no Israeli action against Hezbollah.

- Gaza Albert? You mean the place from which rocket attacks are indiscriminately launched against Israeli civilians almost every day?

- Syria Albert? Oh the raid on the secret military facility parked way up there by the Turkish border. The raid that the Syrians and the North Koreans have been extremely quiet about. I must admit, judging by the satellite photographs, the "clean-up" operation mounted by the Syrians at the site in the aftermath of that raid was truly impressive. Now why would that be Albert?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:31 AM

The Guardian today carries an account of the arrest and deportation of the Jewish American academic Norman Finkelstein from Israel.
It said that the Association For Human Rights in Israel has condemned his deportation saying that it bore all the hallmarks of a totalitarian regime.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:52 AM

Reply to Teribus
The return of the Golan Heights continues to be the stumbling block between any peace agreement between Syria and Israel.
Therer are now 20000 illegal Israeli settlers who are busy creating facts on the ground to prevent the return of the Golan and a right wing hawkish pumped up Israeli government which is extremely unlikely to agree to any return of Syrian land from Israeli control.

In addition Israel attacked Syria just a few months ago.
Just imagine if the USA had been attacked by ,say,Canada?

I had to chuckle at the description by Teribus that Syria had a secret facility near the Turkish border.Since when has any military facility ever been anything other than secret?

albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:07 AM

Re Hillary Clinton and Iran
Clinton threatened to obliterate Iran if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons.
However ,Iran does not have nuclear weapons and has never attacked another country.
This is in contrast to nuclear armed Israel which has spent some 60 years attacking its neighbours in the Middle East with everything from cluster bombs to high explosives ,phospherous to gunships.
It should also be said that there is an American nuclear fleet stationed just a few miles of the coast of Iran which has in the past shot down an Iranian civilian passenger plane . And it was America which encouraged Iraq to attack Iran back in the early 1980s . That war cost a million casualties so Iran is surely entitled to be alarmed when an American presidential hopeful starts to make nuclear threats .
David

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:59 AM

"The return of the Golan Heights continues to be the stumbling block between any peace agreement between Syria and Israel." - Albert

Source for that please Albert.

Now let's have a look at Israeli Settlers previous track record with regard to "Peace-For-Land" Deals.

- Egypt/Israel: Israeli settlers moved into Sinai after 1967 - They left and returned to Israel when the whole of the Sinai was returned to Egypt.

- Palestinian Authority/Israel: Israeli settlers left Gaza and returned to Israel as part of a deal between the PA and the Israeli Government. On this occasion the Israeli Government kept its part of the bargain the PA singularly failed to deliver on the undertakings it agreed to - indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians launched from inside Gaza continue to this day.

So going on that the 20,000 Israeli settlers that Albert says are on the Golan will have a choice, return to Israel or stay in Syria, my guess is that they will return to Israel.

"Re Hillary Clinton and Iran
Clinton threatened to obliterate Iran if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons.
However ,Iran does not have nuclear weapons and has never attacked another country." - Guest David.

Well Guest David if what you state there is correct then Iran is no danger whatsoever is it?

"it was America which encouraged Iraq to attack Iran back in the early 1980s" - Guest David

Do you have any source material to back that statement up Guest David?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 May 08 - 07:38 AM

Albert seems to know a lot about the future outcome of events unfolding. We thank you for letting us know in advance the intentions of all the countries involved.
Regarding Finklestein and this comment "Association For Human Rights in Israel has condemned his deportation saying that it bore all the hallmarks of a totalitarian regime". No-one has a right to visit any country. You have to have proper visas, documents, permission etc. Hell - I was turned away at the U.S. Canadian boarder by U.S. homeland security for trying to bring in cds for sale- but the association for Human rights didn't condemn my deportation. This is simply a publicity stunt. Run with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:33 AM

"I had to chuckle at the description by Teribus that Syria had a secret facility near the Turkish border.Since when has any military facility ever been anything other than secret?" - Albert

Try Portsmouth Dockyard, Albert - Currently the military facility that serves as "Home to the Royal Navy" it is also a recognised historic site open to the public and the location of the first mass production assembly line anywhere in the world. There are quite a few others, so please feel free to chuckle on.

I take from your reticence on the subject that the "alarming" prospect of the "possibility of an American attack on Iran" is just one of your own pet "bogey-men" and that your prediction of it happening before Bush leaves office is hogwash, based on nothing except your own biased outlook.

Now the Golan:

In 2005 the Golan Heights had a population of approximately 38,900, including approximately 19,300 Druze, 16,500 Jews, and 2,100 Muslims

The Palestinian organization Fatah began raids into Israeli territory in early 1965, with active support from Syria. At first the guerillas entered via Lebanon or Jordan, but those countries made concerted attempts to stop them and raids directly from Syria increased.

Israel's response was a series of retaliatory raids, of which the largest were an attack on the Jordanian village of Samu in November 1966, and in April 1967, after Syria heavily shelled Israeli villages from the Golan Heights, Israel shot down six of Syria's MiG fighter planes, provided by the Soviet Union. Israel warned Syria against future attacks.

Before the Six-Day War, the strategic heights of the Golan, which are approximately 3,000 feet (1,000 m) above the bordering Hulah Valley in Israel, were used to frequently bombard civilian Israeli farming communities far below them, although Moshe Dayan (Israeli Defense Minister during the 1967 war) would later state that it was often the result of Israeli provocations in the demilitarized zone.

According to the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, former Israeli General Mattityahu Peled claimed that more than half of the border clashes before the 1967 war "were a result of our security policy of maximum settlement in the demilitarized area" (Please note it was a demilitarized area - settlement within that area was not prohibited). Syrian attacks killed 140 Israelis and injured many more from 1949 to 1967.

In May 1967 before the Six-Day War of 1967, Hafez Assad, then Syria's Defense Minister declared: "Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian Army, with its finger on the trigger, is united... I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." ("..the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation" Eh? By God that's defensive fightin' talk if ever I've heard it - right CarolC?)

In June 2007, approximately 40 years following the Six Day War in which Israel took over the Golan Heights, it was reported that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert had sent a secret message to Syrian President, Bashar Assad saying that Israel would return the land in exchange for a comprehensive peace agreement and the severing of Syria's ties with Iran and terror groups in the region. Meanwhile, on the same day, former Prime Minster, Benjamin Netanyahu announced that the former Syrian President, Hafez Assad had promised to give him Mount Hermon in any agreement.

Now here we come the strange part, because with the Golan everybody seems to be talking about different lines:

- The 1967 Line which Syria wants as it allows Syria to keep land it took by force and occupied in 1948.
- The 1923 Line which Israel wants to use but Syria rejects because it was drawn up the League of Nations and does not give them a shore on the Sea of Galilee
- The 1949 Armistice Line which Syria objects to as it does not give Syria water frontage on the Sea of Gallilea

The map shows the differences:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GolanHistoricalBorders.svg

For all those who seem to advocate Israeli withdrawal from the Golan to the pre-Six-Day War boundaries on the basis that it is land taken by force of arms. Can you explain why it is therefore perfectly acceptable that Syria is entitled to retain land taken by force of arms?

If the answer has got anything to do with time Israel has occupied the land they took for about twice as long as the Syrians occupied the land they took in 1948.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:53 AM

Former US president Jimmy Carter has branded the Israeli blockade of Gaza as"One of the greatest human rights crimes existing on earth right now".
He was speaking at the Hay On Wye Literary Festival in Wales this week.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 May 08 - 12:25 PM

Re Carter Quote: This means exactly what?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 May 08 - 01:12 PM

I have just finished a first reading of an on-line article from 'commentarymagazine.com,' "1948, Israel, and the Palestinians: Annotated Text" by Efraim Karsh.

The article is about five pages of text, and about five pages of footnotes. The footnotes cite myriad contemporaneous documents (c1920-1949) from Jewish, Arab, and British documents and sources, as well as some later documents and histories.

I believe there is much to be learned no matter which side of the argument you are on. And best of all, you can verify, if you wish, the author's sources leading to his conclusions.

And for the record, yes, Commentary is a magazine which is primarily aimed at Jews, and is less liberal than most Jewish publications.

PS: I printed the article using Word, because the default text is too small for these old eyes. Using New Times Roman, size 12, the text and footnotes comprise 20 pages.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 26 May 08 - 01:32 PM

I think former President Carter was refering to the strangling of Gaza and its approx one million population by the Israeli military.
For well over a year the Gaza has been under a kind of lockdown with entry and exit points closely guarded by Israel.
Its power plants have either been destroyed or have run out of fuel and its population is close to starving .In particular its tens of thousands of children are going hungry and lack medicines and basic healthcare .
The sewage system has been made unworkable by the Israelis and a tide of sewage from the million strong city means a very serious health and hygiene has developed.
In addition to the above Israel is continuing shelling Gaza and hundreds of innocent civilians including many children and whole family groups have been wiped out in their cars,on the streets or in their homes by shellfire,sniper fire or by missiles launched from the air.
Last year children playing on the beach were blown up by a shell from an Israeli warships.These warships apparently have also prevented Gazan fishing boats from working thus adding to the food problems in the city.
I think that is what what former President Carter meant when he spoke of the human rights crimes being committed in Gaza.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 08 - 01:52 PM

A little detail you overlooked that must have slipped your mind, guest David, is rockets, David, being fired from Gaza at Israel, does that ring a bell, David? Over 830 rockets and 840 mortars fired from Gaza have struck southern Israel since the beginning of the year (January - April 2008).

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 01:53 PM

For further news and views about the Palestinian struggle for basic human rights Mudcat readers could do worse than look at the ELECTRONIC INTIFADA website which collects articles about events in Israel and the Middle East.
One recent story concerns the many cancer patients who need urgent medical care outside Gaza but have been denied permission to leave by the Israeli authorities.
One patient , Ahmed El Baghdadi, said that the Israel Security Service told him he could have that permission on condition that he became an informer for Israel.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:00 PM

"Former US president Jimmy Carter has branded the Israeli blockade of Gaza as "One of the greatest human rights crimes existing on earth right now".

Well I see that the man's perspective of things remains as faulty as ever. Without any shadow of a doubt the greatest incompetent to hold the Office of the President of the United States of America. Nice man he may be, a leader he most definitely was not, in fact the only reason I believe anyone would follow this man, would be out of some misplaced feeling of curiosity.

"Israeli blockade of Gaza - Greatest human rights crimes existing on earth right now"

OK "Peanut" how's about these? where do they rate on your radar:

- Darfur: 400,000 killed; 2,500,000 displaced. Here is what "Peanut" Carter had to say about it - The United States is exaggerating when it described the Darfur conflict as "genocide," former US president Jimmy Carter has said, warning that the use of the term was legally inaccurate and "unhelpful". This (Darfur) by the bye was what that other useless, ineffectual chatterer Kofi Annan described as, "The gravest humanitarian crisis facing the world today", I think that was back in 2003 - Still haven't managed to do anything about it.

- Tibet: Back in 1980, Jimmy Carter led the boycott of the Moscow Olympics in protest against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. But when asked if he supported a boycott over Chinese aggression in Tibet, he replied:

"That was a totally different experience in 1980, when the Soviet Union had brutally invaded and killed thousands and thousands of people," he said, rejecting the idea of boycotting the Beijing games to protest China's crackdown in Tibet.

He did not address whether just the opening ceremonies should be boycotted. China invaded Tibet on March 10, 1959. According to Tibetan sources, since then 87,000 people have been died. China has carried out a policy to destroy Tibetan culture through destroying Tibetan cultural/religious centers, transplanting millions of ethnic Chinese there, brutally repressing opposition, and forcing into exile the Tibetan leader.

- Burma: According to Carter - "Western nations have very little influence, if any, in Myanmar. The two major countries that do have an influence are India and China. And China is philosophically and politically averse to interfering in the internal affairs of any other country - because they don't want anybody to interfere in their internal affairs.

So I don't think that's a possibility. My hope is that eventually, the sooner the better, the military regime in Myanmar will see the advantage to themselves to open up the society to more freedom."

Now to anyone with any sense of perspective Darfur, Tibet, Burma and Zimbabwe rank way ahead of Gaza in terms of humanitarian concerns for the international community. So why did "Peanut" head for the Middle-East at the particular time that he did. Basically to muddy the water and ruin whatever chances of advancing the situation being explored by the current US Administration. It is not the first time that he has done this, his inept "meddling" in North Korea during the Clinton Administration was at odds with what Clinton actually warranted him to do; the US got suckered into an aid programme while North Korea developed its nuclear weapon. Iran is now the problem it is because of Carter's incompetence.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:09 PM

Hind Al Ashkar, from the Palestinian refugee camp at Al Nuserat in Gaza died on sunday after being refused permission by the Israeli army to leave Gaza.The Israeli army controls the crossing into and out of Gaza.
She sought permission to leave several times for life saving medical treatment because of a kidney condition but her request was always refused.
With her death the number of Palestinian patients who have died as a direct reult of the siege of Gaza now stands at one hundred and sixty three.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:10 PM

"For all those who seem to advocate Israeli withdrawal from the Golan to the pre-Six-Day War boundaries on the basis that it is land taken by force of arms. Can you explain why it is therefore perfectly acceptable that Syria is entitled to retain land taken by force of arms?"

The silence on this is kinda deafening isn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:12 PM

"A little detail you overlooked that must have slipped your mind, guest David, is rockets, David, being fired from Gaza at Israel, does that ring a bell, David? Over 830 rockets and 840 mortars fired from Gaza have struck southern Israel since the beginning of the year (January - April 2008)."

Don't start with facts, bobad. The only facts allowed on this thread are facts that make Israel look like it is completely unreasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:14 PM

Guest David: My question was purely rhetorical. Mr. Carter's comments have zero impact on me. As I mentioned in a previous post, he is the worst president in my lifetime (going back to FDR), and has become the worst ex-president in history, having inserted himself into US foreign policy, or any policy, unbidden.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:20 PM

But surely by common consent the worst president ever is the current president G Bush?

david

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:28 PM

Gee- what a lot of ad hominem argumentum.

I think T is right when he points out that on the scale of things, Darfur surely outweighs Gaza as a humanitarian crisis and a crime against the species, by the species.

Oh, and speaking of land acquired through military force, I seem to recall places with funny names like Florida, Oklahoma, Texas....




A

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:48 PM

"ELECTRONIC INTIFADA" - definitely no bias in that webpage!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:51 PM

By your consent, perhaps, David; I don't consent.
BTW, I notice that you are still a Guest after posting here for years. If you would register, I could then PM you with this purely personal answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 26 May 08 - 03:50 PM

"Don't start with facts, bobad. The only facts allowed on this thread are facts that make Israel look like it is completely unreasonable."

I was just thinking what an oxymoron the title of this thread is.

I've had about as much as I can stand in this forum. I'll spend my time working for peace, not arguing with the zealots of this forum.

Shalom. Saalam. Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:13 PM

Back to you, G of E. Shalom aleichem.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:15 PM

But Israel is completely unreasonable! What else could you call the siege of the   city of Gaza for over a year.

The intensive bombing and shelling of civilians in their homes and apartment blocks.

The unleashing of assassination squads across the West Bank.

The confinement by the Israeli army of seriously ill and dying civilian patients in Gaza when they need urgent medical treatment elsewhere.

The demolition of Palestinian homes by the thousand.

The illegal occupation of the West Bank and its settlement by armed fanatical zionist paramilitaries one of whom shot dead over 40 muslim worshippers some years ago near Hebron.

And we wont forget the monstrous bombing of Lebanon which destroyed thousands of homes,flattened apartment blocks,massacred convoys of fleeing civilians, wrecked hospitals and bridges and so on.

Unreasonable...Nobel peace prize winner Jimmy Carter thinks Israel 's siege of Gaza is a war crime and it is one of many committed by Israel.
ALBERT

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:35 PM

If Hamas declared today they would stop all rockets and attacks and recognize Israel's right to exist immediately, this would all end fast. Israel would in turn stop attacks and enter into peace negotiations. Economic relations would follow. Israel has no interest in fostering the kind of hostilities coming from Gaza. The will has to be there on both sides - not one side.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:33 PM

"The intensive bombing and shelling of civilians in their homes and apartment blocks." - Guest Albert

"The demolition of Palestinian homes by the thousand." - Guest Albert

Albert, have you got even the vaguest inkling of what that would look like if indeed it were true?

How about this Guest Albert - this article mentions "intensive bombing of civilians in their homes":

Thousands Killed in Bombing Raids!

The Blitz was a campaign of intense bombing of not only London and Coventry but many other major cities and towns where factories and other key manufacturing industries were built. But because bombing was not accurate many of the bombs fell on streets and houses killing thousands of civilians and destroying hundreds of houses and other properties.

From the 7th September 1940 until 16th May 1941 the German Luftwaffe carried out an intensive bombing campaign on British cities and it's industries.

London was attacked on 57 consecutive nights between 7th September and the 2nd November with over one million bombs dropped in two months with further raids in December 1940 as well as from March to May 1941.

Fifteen other cities also suffered major bombing attacks such as Coventry, which caused widespread damage.

Over 41,000 civilians were killed during this period in Britain with a further 137.000 people reported injured.

Or alternatively look at Valetta in Malta a much smaller area with far poorer defences, it got hit three times worse than London for a far longer period.

If you want to see the results of "intensive bombing" Guest Albert have a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wesel_1945.jpg

Intensive bombing and shelling of civilians in their homes for over a year eh Guest Albert. Any idea what the casualties have been Guest Albert? I mean they must number in the hundreds of thousands Guest Albert, intensive bombing and shelling for over a year, the place must be totally flattened like those pictures of Wesel in 1945.

Yet you know its odd Guest Albert, because I haven't read of anything remotely akin to what you describe, nobody's reported it, nobody's photographed it. Now how could this be Guest Albert? Or is it just a emotive load of complete and utter bollocks wrapped up in typical left-wing socialist exaggeration.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:34 PM

Ah Teribus,
Atrocities committed against the civilian population of Gaza and you, mealy mouthed, seek to divert attention elsewhere as if it were of no importance whatsoever.

You only have to look at the television screen over the past year or so to have seen the huge amount of damage cause by the indiscriminate shelling of Gaza....and if it wasn't indiscriminate it must have been targetted.

You mentioned several cities bombed   during the war but of course you have not mentioned those closer to Israel....like....for example Beirut ....destroyed by Israeli shelling and bombing in the early 1980s and again in 2006.

And who was the "Butcher of Beirut"? Why none other than that old war criminal himself Ariel Sharon who went on to become the political leader of Israel.

Thousands died in Beirut the first time round.Victims of Israeli shelling and bombing.And then of course the Israelis arranged for its fascist falange allies to go into the refugee camps populated largely by old men,women and children to slaughter with knives and machine guns.
An Israeli tribunal held Sharon responsible for this atrocity but was he placed in the dock? Was he hell!

And in 2006 Israel once again went on the rampage in Lebanon bombing ,shelling from the air ,land and sea.Who can forget the dozens of women and children slaughtered at Qana by Israeli warplanes or the UN observers blown to bits or the car convoys of terrified refugees strafed with rockets and shellfire? Thousands died as the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon was destroyed.
Teribus ,Jimmy Carter has redirected the world's attention to Gaza ...and the destruction of that city is a terrible war crime !
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 26 May 08 - 07:17 PM

The notable American mathematician, David Mumford, winner of the 2008 Wolf Foundation prize for Mathematics has announced that he is to give the 100000 dollar prize to the Palestininian Bir Zeit university near Ramallah in the occupied West Bank and to the Israeli organisation Gisha set up to help Palestinians travel freely.

His donation has gone to the university to highlight the enormous difficulties Palestinian young people face when being educated under Israeli occupation.
david

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 May 08 - 07:57 PM

Regarding Normal Finklestein: I was in error and I appologize. This was not a publicity stunt, although He appears to be getting some good publicity out of this. I heard him interviewed about it on CBC radio today. He was not going to Israel to give lectures or speeches, He was going to visit a friend in the West Bank which he has visited over the last 15 years. According to him, Israeli authorities questioned him and held him there for 18 hours when they decided to put him on a plane back home and told him not to come back for 10 years. He has no idea why they decided to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:05 PM

"The will has to be there on both sides - not one side."

How true.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:34 PM

I want to try ONCE more, then forget trying again.

Until such time as Hezbollah and Hamas stop the rocket attacks and suicide bombers, there will be no peace. I suspect that H and H know that, so they keep doing it. The Israelis respond in a predictable manner and the losses are high on the Gaza/Palestinian side because the Israeli war technology is better by a long shot. That said, I think Israel would welcome peace.

During the Lebanon war I wrote freguently--exchanged words--with the Israeli Foreign Ministry via e-mail. At the time I suggested that it would be good if Israel simply stopped waging war for THREE days, and if the rockets continued, then take the gloves off and hit the targets hard. They wouldn't accept that line of reasoning, and I guess if I'd been in Israel, I wouldn't have accepted it either. Peace is never a unilateral thing. It will take two 'sides' to achieve peace, and there are many more than two sides involved. It is not in the interests of Hezbollah to let peace happen. I do wish the Israelis would forget targeting any civilian areas and send hunter/killer teams after Hezbollah targets. Find them and kill them. Period. Than maybe Hamas COULD sit down to talk peace. Maybe the answer is for Hamas to shut down Hezbollah. But I tend to think the people who claim to want peace in the Middle East really mean they want Israel destroyed as a precondition to peace talks. Then the factions will talk to each other, without Israel.

Unless Hezbollah is reined in, there will be no possibility of peace. Period. I wish it were otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:49 PM

"And we wont forget the monstrous bombing of Lebanon which destroyed thousands of homes,flattened apartment blocks,massacred convoys of fleeing civilians, wrecked hospitals and bridges and so on."

Just as the Israelis won't forget years of murderous attacks on their civilian population. NO ONE will forget. You won't. They won't. Does this make you happy?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:55 AM

The conflict stems from the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people from their homeland.I believe the Zionists used the term population transfer.

The Palestinian people and their children and grandchildren are now living in refugee campa across the Middle East and there can be no peace and no justice until they win their right to return if they want it.After all every Jewish person in the world [bar Finkelstein it seems ]has the right to go to Israel.

That is most unlikely to happen under the extreme right wing government that is in power in Israel.

The solution the government proposes is still more attacks,assaults ,theft of land,facts on the ground,illegal settlements on the West Bank,the Apartheid Wall and the slicing up of remaining Palestinian land into strips controlled by the Israeli military.Israel intends to break the Palestinians.

This is where decades of Zionism has led .Israelis now one of the most violent and distorted places in the world.A place where an illegal armed settler can drive by a palestinan and shot him down with barely a word said.Ir is a place where Zionist thugs can beat up and break the arms of Palestinian kids without punishment,it is a place where the majority of the male Palestinian population of the West Bank has been detained or imprisoned by the Israeli state.It is a place where observers to the thousands of houses being demolished by giant bulldozers can be shot dead by snipers or have their backs broken under the blades of those dozers.

albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:57 AM

I haven't forgotten you, Teribus. I'm writing a long one. It's going to take me a couple more days, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:03 AM

Well Guest David if what you state there is correct then Iran is no danger whatsoever is it?

LOL!!!


It's the countries without nuclear weapons that get attacked, not the other way around!

LOLOL