Subject: BS: Israel European? From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:01 AM Why can Israel take part in European sports? |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Bill D Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:07 AM "take part"? what? when? That's not much of a question as stated. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Stu Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:36 AM It won the Eurovision Song Contest a few years ago. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: DMcG Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:49 AM It's probably asking why Israel is in the UEFA Cup (Union of European Football Associations) when you would not generally regard Isreal as a European county. The answer is surely that what geographer's regard as the continents is not absolutely settled even amongst themselves; that the majority view for geographers is not necessarily the same as politicians would define it; and that other organisations, be they Football Associations or multinational companies, will use the labels as suits them, thank you very much. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:16 PM Wellll several Islands in the American side of the Atlantic are European, ie governed by and use the currency of Europe, so why not Israel? Most of its people so long in Europe they are European, I don't see why they should not be admitted to European sports. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Sorcha Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:17 PM More to the point, who cares? |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: artbrooks Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:24 PM If the Union of European Football Associations is the reference, one could ask the same question about Turkey, Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:26 PM They compete in the Eoropean Championship games but surely they do not belong to Europe? |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:35 PM Israel, sport & political boycotts It is a compromise. To exclude all (or most) Muslim countries for not following the rules of the respective sports federations is impossible due to political reasons. So the present solution is accepted. But it still leads to interesting conflicts. Last year, in football, a European team with an Iranian player had to play Tel Aviv. The Iranian player had to play acording to his contract with his club if his coach wanted him to play. If he would have played he would have been punished by his government when returning to Iran. So he got himself injured (officially). Wolfgang |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:50 PM Australia will compete in football in Asia from this year on. For historical reasons, Cyprus, Turkey, and Russia alo compete in most sports in Europe though one could argue that they also could compete in Asia. Egypt is another country situated on two different continents but competing only in one, namely Africa. Wolfgang |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:54 PM Which contient is Israel on, then? |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: artbrooks Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:40 PM Israel is located in Southwest Asia |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:43 PM Not Europe then? |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: artbrooks Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:11 PM Southwest Asia |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:16 PM Surely, this is part of the bigger problem. Israel is a state populated - one way or the other - by European Jews. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Ebbie Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:31 PM Question: Since Russia is in both Europe and Asia, which part is allowed to play in European contests? *G* |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Les from Hull Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:47 PM There's quite a bit of Russia in Europe, including its capital city. So Russia is a European country for sporting contests. In the current European Athletic Championships (or track 'n' field as the Americans say), one of the Russian athletes was from Vladivostok! Very little of Turkey is in Europe - just the bit round Istanbul. And none of Israel is in Europe. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: artbrooks Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:15 PM This from Wikopedia: Israel is about 80% Jewish. Of the Jews, 68% are Sabras (Israeli-born), mostly second or third generation Israelis, and the rest are olim — 22% from Europe and the Americas, and 10% from Asia and Africa, including the Arab countries. There is no breakdown of the ethnicity of the Sabras' parents, grandparents, and so forth. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:35 PM So why are they allowed into European competitions? |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:12 PM Do you only ask questions, Gerry, or do you also read the responses? Wolfgang |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Peace Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:28 PM "So why are they allowed into European competitions?" It would seem because you ain't got dick to say about it. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Peace Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:32 PM "But if the linkage between sports and politics has declined since the 1970s, it has intensified in the international arena as the country's Arab neighbors sought to isolate the Jewish state from 1973 onwards. Ironically, this tactic backfired. For while Israel was expelled from all Asian sports' federations, it was eventually accepted into the European sports' bodies, enabling the country to compete in many of the world's most prestigious competitions such as the European Athletics Championships, the European Swimming Championships, the UEFA football cups, the European Basketball cups and all other major European tournaments." There. Next time, Gerry, do your own research. And one question for you: Why shouldn't Israelis be allowed to participate in European sports? Does it bother you that much? Trust me, the religion don't rub off. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Azizi Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:36 PM "Egypt is another country situated on two different continents but competing only in one, namely Africa". Wolfgang, I wasn't aware that Egypt was situated on two different continents. Egypt seems to be located entirely in Africa. What two continents are you referring to? |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Peace Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:39 PM Likely that is a reference to the Sinai which is considered to be in Asia, not Africa. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 14 Aug 06 - 05:42 AM It just seemed strange to me that a middle eastern country should be represented in Europe, like having their cake and eating it. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Azizi Date: 14 Aug 06 - 08:23 AM This may be off-topic a bit, but I need to make this point- Egypt is entirely located on the continent of Africa. So many times for some many reasons so many people have tried to dissassociate Egypt from Africa. I'm not saying that you Wolfgang or you Peace are trying to do that. However, your words might be misconstrued by others accidently or on purpose. So for those who want to believe that Egypt or part of Egypt is located elsewhere, see this link Geography of Egypt which comes with a map. Here is an excerpt from that website: "Situated in the Northeastern corner of Africa, bounded by the Mediterranean Sea from the North and the Red Sea from the East, with the Sinai Peninsula constituting a link to Southwest Asia, Egypt enjoys a unique, strategic location at the crossroads between Africa, the Middle East and Europe. Throughout its history, Egypt has been a country where various cultures met and interacted. Egypt's total area is over one million square kilometers, yet only a narrow strip in the Nile Valley and the Delta is cultivated land." -snip- I hope this makes it clear that "the Sinai Peninsula constituting a link to Southwest Asia" does not mean that the Sinai Peninsula is in Southwest Asia. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Paul Burke Date: 14 Aug 06 - 09:36 AM Wikipedia : "Its land borders are the Suez Canal to the west and the Israelâ€"Egypt border to the north-east. The Sinai Peninsula is in Southwest Asia (also called West Asia - the more geographically accurate term for the European term of Middle East) while the rest of Egypt is in North Africa. For geopolitical purposes, the Sinai is often considered part of Africa (as the rest of Egypt is)." So as Africa has to end, and Asia start, somewhere, it's a grey area. I don't know why it bothers you though, unless you feel that having a bit of Egypt out of Africa diminishes it as an African state. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: artbrooks Date: 14 Aug 06 - 09:59 AM A Google on "Sinai Peninsula" will give a number of sites. Most of the ones that bother at all place the Sinai in Asia; perhaps the official Egyptian government site that Azzizi linked to has a different perspective, for whatever reason. The Gulf of Suez is certainly longer, deeper and wider than the Gulf of Akaba, which is likely why it is the dividing "line" between the two continents. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Wolfgang Date: 14 Aug 06 - 10:29 AM Of course, Egypt is not situated completely in Africa. Historically, the gulf of Suez has always been considered the divide between Africa and Asia. The largest part of Egypt but not all of it is in Africa. There is no question of misconstruing my words for I have said what I wanted to say. Let's look at where Azizi has got her map from. It has been taken from the official site of the government of Egypt: Egypt State Information Service (Location of Egypt) That's what Egypt says about its location on that government site: The Arab Republic of Egypt is located in the north-eastern corner of Africa and south-western Asia... Location: Northern Africa, bordering the Mediterranean Sea, between Libya and the Gaza Strip, and the Red Sea north of Sudan, and includes the Asian Sinai Peninsula (my emphasis) I also don't understand why it bothers you, Azizi. Wolfgang |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Paul Burke Date: 14 Aug 06 - 10:32 AM In terms of plate tectonics (which is the only reality behind the division of the landmasses into continents), Sinai and Arabia are a separate plate on their own, and actually part of neither Africa nor the main body of Asia. But on that criterion, India isn't part of Asia proper either. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Azizi Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:25 PM I stand corrected. My apologies to both Wolfgang and Peace. A small portion of the nation of Egypt is in south-western Asia. However, the majority of that nation is located in the continent of Africa. As to why it bothers me that some folks find all sorts of reasons to disconnect Egypt with the continent of Africa, I suppose you can figure that out without me going even more off topic in this thread. And if you can not, that's another topic for another thread. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Peace Date: 14 Aug 06 - 06:09 PM No apology needed for me, Azizi, but thank you anyway. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: GUEST,hugo Date: 15 Aug 06 - 07:05 AM Imperial Politicians have always seen Israel as a sort of "Jewish Ulster"...a settler state planted on behalf of western interests [ie oil ] among arab people. It has not gained acceptance with its neighbours because it is inherently a racist and aggressive state ...a militarised democracy controlled by its generals as a writer put it well in the Guardian today. The reason for the planting of this state is its use to police the Middle East on behalf of Britain [at first ] and since the second World War , America. Because of its militarised and aggressive nature it has no friends among its neighbours hence its turn to Europe and the daft Eurovision song contest etc. hugo |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Ernest Date: 15 Aug 06 - 07:31 AM Very intelligent since there is no oil to speak of in Israel. And the idea of "wiping Israel out of the map" is neither agressive nor racist... and control by a theocracy is of course much more progressive than democracy. Are you the Hugo that has been locked away in the basement all these years? They shouldn`t have done that... ;0) Ernest |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Paul Burke Date: 15 Aug 06 - 07:54 AM Israel has no oil, nor Jordan, but the oil pipeline from Iraq passed through Palestine, which was one reason the British were none too keen to give the inhabitants the independence that they thought they had earned. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: GUEST,hugo Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:48 AM To Earnest Israel has no oil itself...true.... I never said it had. However ,Israel serves to police the region on behalf of US imperialism.For example it attacked the Suez Canal in Egypy in 1956 to put down a marker as to its future intentions as an aggressive state. It is no accident of history that with the importance of oil emerging at the end of the 19th century the Balfour Declaration was announced in 1917. Since its formation Israel has served to intimidate the arab masses and the local arab ruling classes in the region. However, the psychological and actual terror seems to be having a reduced effect as Hezbollah has stood up to and faced down the Israeli war machine. hugo |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Ernest Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:19 AM Israel is the land where the jewish people lived in biblical times. The idea of forming a jewish state in thate place was developed by the zionist movement (Dr. Theodor Herzl) in the 19th century. So the idea that Israel was "planted" in its place by the British and Americans is nonsense. Israel has been attacked by its neighbors in 1948, 1967 and 1973 plus countless suicide bombers, rockets etc. So if you call Israel "militarized and aggressive" what do you call this? |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Paul Burke Date: 16 Aug 06 - 06:05 AM Massive non-sequitur Ernest. Sussex was Welsh 2000 years ago, as was Scotland, and the USA was populated by Red Indians. If we all return to our homelands I'm not sure where I'll go- Normandy or Spain perhaps, but the Normans came from Scandinavia and their ancestors perhaps came from somewhere in central Europe or west Asia, not long before the Romans destroyed the Jewish state. What's more, Zionism didn't take off until it had political support from the world's great powers, which support resulted from a mixture of guilt, religious nuttery, romanticism and an eye for the opportunity. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 16 Aug 06 - 11:17 PM Hugo, Ego, Wego, Igo... |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Peace Date: 16 Aug 06 - 11:28 PM Hugo needs someone else to hate--just to give the Jews a break for a while. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: GUEST,Bee Bee Date: 17 Aug 06 - 10:17 AM I think the original question is a good one - why is Israel allowed to participate in European sport etc? If we follow the line that one contributor made, that most Israelis are European (whether that's true or not), then we should also include many other countries in 'Europe' such as the US, Australia, New Zealand etc. If Israel has upset Asian countries so much that it has been banned from competing in their championships, why should Europe take them in? For many years South Africa was banned and had nowhere to run, jump, or play football at all. Perhaps Israel could compete in the Americas championships, given who their closest ally is. I personally think that European competition should be for those nations whose land falls entirely or partly in Europe. Israel's does not. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: greg stephens Date: 17 Aug 06 - 01:59 PM I nam surprised nobody seems to have raised the obvious parallel example. Berwick-on-Tweed plays football in the Scottish league I believe, though the town is actually in England. Historical connections, etc, etc, just like Israel/Europe. Obviously this upsets some people, which is an interesting phenomenon; as is Azizi's strange anger when someone pointed out the obvious fact that a bit of Egypt appears to be in Asia. (of couse, it depends on what you mean by Asia.Or Europe. Or Africa). Others find it irritating that a chunk of Turkey seems to be in Europe. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Les from Hull Date: 17 Aug 06 - 05:55 PM Derry City FC is a Northern Irish football club playing in the Football League of Ireland. And there's two bits of Spain in Africa (Ceurta and Melilla). And there's bits of France all around the world that belong to the European Union. It's a confusing world! |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Peace Date: 17 Aug 06 - 06:00 PM "Others find it irritating that a chunk of Turkey seems to be in Europe." We had many sparce times when I was a youth, and having a 'chunk of Turkey' anywhere in the house would have done wonders for the cat's nerves. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Azizi Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:22 PM Off topic: Greg Stephens, In your 17 Aug 06 - 01:59 PM post, you refer to my "strange anger when someone pointed out the obvious fact that a bit of Egypt appears to be in Asia. (of couse, it depends on what you mean by Asia.Or Europe. Or Africa)" -snip- Aside for the fact that your statement shows that "obvious" is not always "obvious", it's interesting to me that you or anyone else could think that anything I wrote in my 14 Aug 06 - 08:23 AM post or the only other post I've written to this thread besides my initial posts and this one-on 14 Aug 06 - 12:25 PM-could be interpreted as expressing anger. I suppose we have different interpretations about what constitutes angry words. Oh, well-different strokes for different folks. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: Peace Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:26 PM I didn't find A's post to be angry, pissed off or upset. Same, normal level-headed gal who's posted here for years--and not always on topic, unlike the rest of us . . . :-). And speaking of punctuation, has anyone noticed lately that kids just do NOT give a darn! (That one was for Les, although he may not come to this thread?) |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: dianavan Date: 18 Aug 06 - 01:46 PM Most Israelis, it seems, are European. Israel is another extension of colonialism and Israelis are no different than the European settlers who displaced the indigenous people of North America. They have to play games in Europe because nobody in the neighborhood wants to play with them. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: bobad Date: 18 Aug 06 - 01:53 PM End discrimination. Hate everybody. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: artbrooks Date: 18 Aug 06 - 03:04 PM According to Wikopedia, "22% [of Israelis are] from Europe and the Americas". This hardly seems like "most" to me. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel European? From: dianavan Date: 18 Aug 06 - 04:53 PM Art - This may give you a more accurate picture: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/demographics.html According to Wiki - "Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)" You have to remember that although those born in Israel are considered to be Israeli born, it doesn't mean their parents were from Israel. In fact, European immigration to Israel is very high. I'd like to know exactly how many of Israel's Jews were actually born in the Middle East. |