Prosecution of students pirating music

Subject: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 May 07 - 05:18 PM

Sixteen people have been accused by the Recording Industry Association of using the University of New Mexico's computer network to illegally download music.
The Association has asked the University to track them down, using IP addresses and other information.
The University is being asked to send the culprits a letter explaining that they have a chance to resolve copyright infringement claims against them for about $3500 each, before a lawsuit is filed.
The Association has threatened to subpoena UNM officials to obtain the identities of the 16 people.
The Association claims that theft on college campuses continues at high levels.
Moira Gerety, UNM's director of computing for information technology services, said "We really feel as a university very uncomfortable being in the middle.

Associated Press, May 3, 2007. Story in the Santa Fe New Mexican.
http://www/freenewmexican.com/news/61169.html
Illegal Music Downloads

You thieves out there take warning! The possee is in full cry and hot pursuit!

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 07 - 06:26 PM

About time.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 04 May 07 - 06:47 PM

Theft is theft. But we need new ideas and new ways of dealing with electronic information when it's a copyright that belongs to an individual. As someone who suffers from these infringements I do see both sides. Only thieves don't.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: pitheris
Date: 05 May 07 - 03:48 PM

Quote:
About time.

Now the RIAA will be collecting royalties on your behalf even if your music is independent. If you want to get your money, you can pay SoundExchange a membership fee.

Story Here
And Here

Who are the real "pirates"?

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 07 - 04:15 PM

Maybe both. But for sure people who copy direct from the www are pirates. Whether or not RIAA is will no doubt be determined by ASCAP, SOCAN, BMI, etc.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 May 07 - 06:00 PM

There was a time when you didn't want to do a full grocery run, you would go down to the corner shop. You'd walk in the door and come face to face with the salesperson who stood behind the counter.
The impulse buys such as cakes and chocolate bars were on display, between the grocer & yourself and the rest of the goods were on shelves which ran from floor to ceiling and were all far beyond the reach of the customer. You simply placed your order, the shopkeeper filled it and the goods were exchanged for money. End of transaction.
Other than the odd confection, nothing was within reach of the shoplifter.
Some time in the sixties (in Scotland) the Supermarkets made their debut. Layers and layers of goods were neatly arranged in long aisles which were virtually unguarded, save the occasional dome mirror. And so, the professional shoplifter was born.
The Supermarkets of today must accept some responsibility for placing temptation in front of those who, for whatever reason, cannot resist.
So it is with music downloads. If you want to leave your music available for downloading, fine.
But.... Do not expect the authorities to take you seriously when you leave the shop doors open 24 hours a day, with a sign up saying "No body's Home, Please Pay", particularly when at the end of it all What has really been stolen?
Every song (no matter how many illegal copies have been made) is still sitting right on the shelf where the owner left it unguarded.
Share it or sell it, your choice but if you don't want to give it away, lock it up!

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: jeffp
Date: 05 May 07 - 06:47 PM

Most songs that are illegally downloaded were ripped from CDs. I guess it's the artists' faults for releasing the music in the first place.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 07 - 07:44 PM

Read what jeffp said. It makes sense.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: stallion
Date: 05 May 07 - 07:52 PM

ok why was my post edited out?

I have checked and no posts were deleted. It is likely you simply forgot to post it.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 07 - 08:17 PM

Fucked if I know. Sometimes it just happens.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 May 07 - 09:03 PM

The art of ripping songs from CDs for distribution through the Internet is not something I have heard of or imagined nor is it what I was addressing. Is it wrong? ... Probably. Is it the fault of the artist? ... Certainly not. Is it harming anyone? Not one single soul.

Peace: I won't spend any more time on this thread, thanks to your language.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 07 - 09:05 PM

Goodbye then. Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 07 - 09:21 PM

"The art of ripping songs from CDs for distribution through the Internet is not something I have heard of or imagined nor is it what I was addressing. Is it wrong? ... Probably. Is it the fault of the artist? ... Certainly not. Is it harming anyone? Not one single soul."

You don't depend on songwriting for a living, do you.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Effsee
Date: 05 May 07 - 09:22 PM

Jim lad' I'm sorry I have to take issue wuth your statement :-"Some time in the sixties (in Scotland) the Supermarkets made their debut. Layers and layers of goods were neatly arranged in long aisles which were virtually unguarded, save the occasional dome mirror. And so, the professional shoplifter was born."... Professional shoplifters have been on the go a lot earlier than that I can assure you!

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 May 07 - 11:46 PM

Peace: Since you've dropped the foul language, I'll respond...
"You don't depend on songwriting for a living, do you." I'm a "Traditional Folk Singer" rather than "Singer Songwriter" A(although I do write a little) so I depend on fees and sales not royalties. While I do respect the rights of the composers, I have little patience for the collectors, translators and other impostors who eagerly jump on the "Arranged & adapted by" bandwagon.
As for people pirating music for no financial gain? I have no problem with that.

Effsee: It occurred to me that someone would read into my short parable that I didn't think there was any shoplifting before there were supermarkets. Come on! You're smarter than that. The evolution of Supermarkets is however, the only reason that professional shoplifters have bee able to make their way into that particular corner of the market.
The point which you chose to ignore is that when it comes to putting music on the Internet, it's just the same as a vendor, leaving his/her goods on the barrow and going home for the night.

As for walking the talk? I think, I'm as generous as any when it comes to free downloads. I am frequently approached at concerts, by those who have home made copies of my music and wish to thank me. I swear & I have never missed a meal because of it although I really, really should!
Cheers.
Jim

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 May 07 - 11:58 PM

"I swear & I have never missed a meal because of it.."
Little typo there. Poetic justice, you might say.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 07 - 01:06 AM

I agree that people who change a line and then expect to get a writer's cut don't deserve it. Nor do those who 'arrange' by changing two chords. BUT, writers deserve their fees (royalties) and so do genuine arrangers. And so do singers. Stealing their work is really just that. It is stealing their work.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: cshurtz
Date: 06 May 07 - 01:52 AM

Music is not some kind of property like a building or a parking lot. If you want to extract things from your surroundings and create music, then do so. Just don't whine about it when someone extracts your creation from his/her surroundings and listens to it and shares it with others. Isn't that what music is supposed to be? It would be one thing if I downloaded someone's music and took writing credits. But "downloaders" are just listening and sharing. And I believe that listening and sharing are two things the world needs much more of.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: alanabit
Date: 06 May 07 - 02:29 AM

The trouble is, society has made an agreement, expressed by laws, that artists are entitled to a fee every time the music changes hands. "Giving" away an MP3 or a ripped copy of a song is "giving" away something, which you do not own in the first place. It is not yours to give.
A writer or performers better work is often the result of years of effort and practice. Casually "sharing" it with lots of other people, while offering the the performer nothing at all is hardly a great act of generosity. It isn't your gift to give.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 May 07 - 02:51 AM

AlanAbit: Fair comment. However, I'm sure that on at least one of my albums, I invite the listener to make one or two copies for their own use. I have also used this forum to not only invite people to participate in the free downloads but to pass them on to their friends or enemies as they see fit. I may or may not reap the rewards down the road and am not concerned either way.
That's my philosophy and I don't expect that other artists should have to agree with it. Neither should they expect everyone to follow their philosophy regarding music sales.
Once the song is released, it's in the air. Should we drop a penny in the box every time we whistle a Bob Dylan tune? Isn't this site devoted to passing the stuff around?
We may be guilty of enforcing a double standard here. One rule for us codgers and another for the Varsity crowd.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 07 - 03:09 AM

'But "downloaders" are just listening and sharing.'

Yes, they are. And those they are sharing with, including themselves, have scoffed someone's work for free.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 May 07 - 03:16 AM

I'm not grasping something here, Peace. Have you been ripped off?

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: stallion
Date: 06 May 07 - 03:27 AM

oh finger trouble - again! cheers Joe

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 07 - 04:23 AM

No, I haven't. My stuff isn't worth ripping off. But there are working writers who have had their material put on the www without their permission and without payment. That is not right.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 May 07 - 05:51 AM

Recently, I became interested in finding out exactly how much illegal down-loading goes on, and, as a result of talking to a bunch of teenagers, my findings would suggest that nearly every kid in the UK knows a website where they can download virtually everything they want for free! There's a chap I know who knows a chap who, for £5( $10) could supply me with the complete record catalogue of any rock artist I care to mention. And,it appears, the complete Beatle recording catalogue on cdrom has been readily available for ages. Of course, the record industry doesn't help matters by appearing to be ripping buyers off with their high prices. And, of course, in turn, many people would find this a justification for ripping off the record industry with illegal acquisition of recordings.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Bee
Date: 06 May 07 - 08:10 AM

I don't download/steal music or images, because I think it is wrong (besides illegal) but I can certainly see why people do. CDs are very expensive; commonly it would be around $18 to $24 for a folk CD with twelve songs on it, six of which I might not like very much. It's very seldom I can afford to indulge myself and buy music. I've also found, in the past couple years, that there are some really poor quality CDs being sold, kind of mushy sounding, a bit like old tapes that have been recorded over too many times. I recently bought a Bluegrass compilation, because it was on sale and had some good musicians on it, and soon found it was barely listenable, the quality was so poor.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 May 07 - 01:21 PM

I would guess that, per cd, the sets and singles that I buy cost me an average of US$15 each, often with S/H added since I live in Canada (long waits if I place an order with a local vendor).

High costs reflect today's economy more than anyone's excess profit. Costs paid to performers as royalties (and sometimes retainers and charges for the performance by the 'stars'), recording staff and equipment, cost of recording sites, advertizing, distribution and middlemen, profit added by the vendor (whose costs also are high), all contribute to the price paid by the consumer.

Part of what I buy has been reviewed in BBC Music Magazine because I listen to much 'classical' and opera as well as folk and jazz. Coverage of jazz and international has been added to BBC, but is very limited.

Finding good reviews is not only difficult but costly unless one has many friends with similar interests who will share their impressions.
I can symphasize with Bee, having bought some of the poor compilations on impulse and been sadly disapointed. (These comments do not apply to Document and others doing a good job of remastering, etc.).

Mudcat helps to an extent as people comment on their views, but that is not a prime function of Mudcat.

Downloading I find unsatisfactory- sound not as good and dislike of the time it takes me to organize the material. As a result, I think I will avoid letters from RIA.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 May 07 - 01:31 PM

So, we're all agreed then!
Good Morning All!
from the drizzly Highlands.
Jim

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 May 07 - 09:49 AM

As to the prices quoted above for CDs (including profit margins, royalties and shipping/handling), compare these with the price of cassettes (if you can still find them)
As I understand it, CDs are cheaper to produce, yet are higher priced.
Historically (when CDs were introduced) there was a larger market for cassettes so CDs needed a higher price due to the lower turnover. But how much of this higher price was to try to recoup the losses being made to home recording?
With CDs now outselling cassettes, CDs are still more expensive, but newspapers often give free CDs/DVDs as promotonal aids. presumably because of the cheap cost of production.
We seem to have a vicious circle, the price of CDs is set higher to ensure a return on capital (because of low sales due to home recording), and because people resent the high price they feel justified in making illegal copies.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 07 - 10:02 AM

Just a note to remind folks that Mudcatter, Sandy Paton and his lovely wife, Caroline, at Folk Legacy offer almost all of their CDs for $14.98 AND you can get a lot of stuff still on cassette.

Also, Dick Greenhaus, of the Digital Tradition also tries to keep CDs affordable at Camsco.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: GUEST,WORDY
Date: 07 May 07 - 10:19 AM

As usual Nigel makes the basic mistake so many critics of cd prices make. The free cds have re-couped their initial costs over many years usually. Yes, manufacturing the cd itself is cheap, but pricing a new one usually has to include the costs of production, studio time, musician hire, royalty payments, design, profit margin for shops etc.
My last cd cost me £7000 before I sold a copy.
Recently, at the end of a gig a rather drunk man came and told me he had borrowed my last five cds from his sister and copied the lot onto cd. He thought this was hilarious.
I didn't.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Bee
Date: 07 May 07 - 10:43 AM

Wordy, it doesn't matter, in the end, to the consumer, what the production costs are, although of vcourse it matters to you. Music CDs are a luxury item, and the majority of people can't indulge in endless luxuries. In Nova Scotia, Folk CDs never go on sale - they're considered a specialty item, I guess - and run from $18 to $24. each. That's over $1000. or more for fifty, which is still a small collection. That's also including plenty songs the buyer won't like, and often there are only twelve songs per CD, which is fine if the artist actually chose well, but sometimes it seems like just an attempt to 'save' another twelve, including a couple audience favourites, for another $20. CD.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 07 May 07 - 11:23 AM

So, is your point that none of us should bother?

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 07 May 07 - 12:59 PM

If it bothers you, Wordy then no-one can fault you. It's your product. I would much rather choose my battles. Besides, it doesn't happen to bother me at all. In fact, I'd be quite flattered that someone took the time to share & enjoy my contributions.
Good, Sunny Morning To All!
from the Highlands.
Jim

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Bee
Date: 07 May 07 - 01:16 PM

Wordy, if you were replying to me, of course that is not my point. I am just pointing out that CDs cost more than the average person can afford easily, therefore no one ever wants to buy on spec, therefore often people never hear the music, therefore no one wants to 'buy to try', therfore the artist doesn't sell many CDs.

Your 7000 lb figure, roughly converted to Canadian money (about $20,000 Can.), at $20. per CD, and if you got every penny from the CD sale, would mean you had to sell 1000 CDs before paying your costs. You must be quite popular, if you expect to recoup such costs.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 07 May 07 - 01:49 PM

Jim, I'm sure you wouldn't apply that non economic attitude to your own life's work would you? I bet you always feel you should be paid fairly for your labour. If music is your job, ( and I know some people on here resent those who do succeed at it) then it's the same as being a plumber or a teacher or whatever. I respect my fellow workers in whatever trade they follow and pay them accordingly for their services. Therefore if someone wishes to enjoy my services as a musician why should your attitude apply?
And when they do buy my "product" I'm pleased, not flattered, because I know it's good and worth its price, like any tradesman in any marketplace.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: alanabit
Date: 07 May 07 - 01:54 PM

When people burn (steal) my CD, I tell them pointedly that I did not get it for free.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 May 07 - 02:05 PM

"Free cds as promotional advs" - The cost to the advertizer is charged to promotion, and is thus a business expense, which can be deducted from taxes on the business (in the U. S. and Canada). Moreover, as Wordy says, the 'free' cds are usually those that have recouped their cost and have filled most of the demand.
This doesn't mean that the production costs were low. The pressing cost is the smallest of the costs going into the cd.

Tapes, of course, are a thing of the past; I have a number of them which I transfer to cds as I get time. (Blank tapes sold here in Canada have a tax on them, a quality recording tape costs much more than a blank cd).

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 07 May 07 - 02:08 PM

"Jim, I'm sure you wouldn't apply that non economic attitude to your own life's work would you? I bet you always feel you should be paid fairly for your labour. If music is your job." ......Huh?
I'm not the plumber!
Music is my job.
We obviously have entirely different attitudes towards our audience!
I don't impose my philosophy on you, I have merely informed you of it. So please, don't insult me any further by suggesting that I am not qualified to discuss this matter.
I may not be a headliner nor will I ever be but I am one of the fortunate few who can make a good living as a folk entertainer without ever having to worry about paying the bills or compromising my art form.
I do so by being a lot more forgiving and clearly a heck of a lot more friendly to my audience than you are to yours.
Read some of my last submissions then come back and retract your last statement.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 07 May 07 - 02:12 PM

So being friendly to your audience is indulging them in their thievery and being forgiving? Well, we must differ then.
You would have smiled along with the man who thought it was a great joke to tell you he had stolen five of your cds? Jim, you're a saint.
You're a better man than I Gunga Din!

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 07 May 07 - 02:33 PM

I have done so on many occasions. READ THE WHOLE THREAD!

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 07 May 07 - 02:35 PM

First rule of being an entertainer... You must like people.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 07 May 07 - 02:47 PM

This thread resulted in more than 1.000 unique visitors to my web-site on the first three days alone. Still, after taking their free downloads (which had been there all along) some came back to buy hard copies. You think I don't know what I'm talking about? Watch & learn!

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 07 May 07 - 02:58 PM

An interesting ploy Jim. Now you had over 1000 visitors, so how many sales? By the way I have free tracks on my website too,'cause I like people. But I don't like the girl who's put a complete album of mine for download on her blog site. Should I? She never asked me.
You see it's the old morality I was brought up on. I couldn't afford all the sweets in the sweetshop but I never stole any. Nowadays the morality seems to be if you can't guard it I'll take it, and the net is basically a sweetshop with no one behind the counter. Now with my old fashioned morality I still wouldn't steal the sweets. More fool me it seems because I'm supposed to be happy that my shop is being raided all the time.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:12 PM

It was never a ploy. Stop with the insults. Those who chose to buy after downloading for free, would probably tell you that they had to push me to sell them. I do very well and owe much to my audience.
I am seriously beginning to wonder if you're just making the whole thing up, to string me along.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:22 PM

No, honestly Jim. A pro who says he makes a good living by reluctantly selling his cds is a saint to me!
I too do very well, like people, and owe my good life to my audience whom I respect greatly as they have to work hard to find people like us in the modern noisy world of hype. But I feel worth my corn and worth my coin.
I find confidence is a big factor in a pro's life and selling myself for as much as the marketplace will let me gives me the confidence to believe in myself. With all and sundry making cds, giving them away, being flattered by one or two downloads, etc I can only feel my work is valuable to people if they are willing to purchase it. I think this is true of most creative people who have to pay the same bills as someone with a guaranteed income.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:33 PM

"I do very well and owe much to my audience."

Good for you. And it IS your right to allow folks to download material you do that is common ground or written by you personally. It is NOT within your rightd to do a Dylan song and then allow people to download that for free, because Dylan is the writer and he is therefore entitled to the writer's royalty. Notice, all that and not ONE bad word.

Jim, stop talking down to folks. Many of us have a history in music, good bad or indifferent, and the thread is about sharing views, not just pushing our own points of view.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:47 PM

Peace: Once again, you jump in without reading the thread. This "Wordy" character implied that my opinion is worthless because I am not a professional. Now, go back and read. Then if you somehow think that I do not have the right to defend myself, say so.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:56 PM

This character implied no such thing Jim. If you re-read my first post I was making an analogy between a plumber and a musician as working people in a marketplace. I certainly never said you were a plumber, because if you were you wouldn't bother being a pro musician as you'd make a much better living!

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Bill D
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:56 PM

When it was LPs and cassette tapes, I used to 'borrow' tapes of albums from a couple friends, as I flatly couldn't afford to buy everything I saw that I 'might' like...then, when I had the chance, I'd part with the cash for the full albums I cared about and record over the others. Sometimes all I wanted was a tune so I could learn a song, and most of what I wanted was old 'trad' songs, anyway.

It is a slightly different issue for song WRITERS...especially if they are producing & marketing their own CDs.

I don't know the answer, partially there are several answers...as Jim Lad and Wordy are showing us. In today's world, every artist can have their own notion of what counts and what is acceptable in distribution & profit. When an artist almost depended on a company to decide they were worth promoting and shouldered a lot of the costs, it was different.

Now, costs to make a CD are lower, so folks who would NEVER have had a compilation available can be heard...but their needs are different than those trying to make most of their living from music.....That's why this bit of RIAA..etc..setting out to 'collect' royalties for any song played is just ridiculous.

It is also a losing battle....the technology exists to make almost song, video..etc...fairly easy to get. It's like porn...once, it was possible to keep major amounts from being widely available, but with digital technology cheap, there's no way to stop it.

I predict that in the next 10-15 years, there will be an entirely new concept in marketing for musicians.

There are SO many different issues than just stalwartly 'declaring' that this is ok, but THAT is piracy, based on rigid rules.