War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:00 AM

Maybe Bush actually did inhale?

A

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:28 AM

Petr - Interesting stuff there about Japan. I'm not surprised they were in a state of shock when presented with an American style constitution.

After all, you have to imagine what it would be like if your nation (let's say the USA) fought in a huge war of several years duration...had most of its cities bombed into wreckage, and its Navy sunk...was then forced to surrender unconditionally in an elaborate ceremony to its foreign opponents, on a battleship moored in the Potomac River within sight of the White House (which would at that point be occupied by foreign troops)...and was then informed that the victors had a whole new governmental system plan all worked out for the USA, a much better one than you have had in the past....and if you will just sit down and listen, they will tell you how it's all going to be done.

Are we talking about a mild state of shock here...or a total state of indescribable dumfounded disbelief???

Think about it.

Specially in a country that has never before in history surrendered to anyone or even thought of doing so.

Would there be resentment in the USA about this a generation or two later. Hmmmm? I wonder.

I am drawing up this little scenario not to attack what you said in any way...what you said was interesting.

But it is always useful to put yourself in the other guys shoes when considering such things.

Just as the Japanese may have a hard time relating to people still being upset about the horrific atrocities their military forces committed in China and elsewhere...the Americans may have a hard time understanding why they are resented for striding like a colossus into other cultures and replacing other people's customs and ways with their own, as if it were God's will that it should so be done.

This is the blindness and complacency of great political and military powers. All of them.

- LH

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:42 PM

Animosity is still less than transparent in the US regarding the civil war. North vs. South has quite a legacy of strident language and sterotypes. There will always be a lingering aftertaste of victory or defeat in any conflict.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 12:37 PM

Here's an interesting piece on the obsolescence of US PsyOps equipment, using broadcast and leaflets approaches that have been in place since WWII and the Desert Storm op.

WhatI think we ought to do is use Barney technology -- blended with the little robot dogs now being exported from Japan. We should flood the skiesd of Afghanistan with little soft furry camels or rabbits who robotically hop around and sidle up to humans and tell them how Bush is really just against terrorists not Afghans, and other important bits.

We could probably deploy a million of them for the price of one of the Psyops planes they are buying. Little parachuted furry animabots who speak Arabic. "Sala'a'm aleikum!! L'a bes'alik?!! I'm Sinbad the Camel!! Can I be Your Friend?" Kind of a mix between Mister Rogers, a used car salesman, and advanced robotics. IF it didn't win them over, it would probably scare 'em worse than the bunkerbusters, anyway!

You saw it here first!! LOL!!

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 12:46 PM

Lemmee take a long shot here................Amos, you're the guy who got the grant to develop the Frisbee into a fighter aircraft aren't you?

Spaw

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 01:03 PM

Well, Spaw, here's one the gang in your garage could surely get behind -- the infinite miltary uses of lard:

Subject: New Pork Warfare

WASHINGTON Pigs, hogs, swine, porkers, barrows, trotters. When Americans aren't eating them hot dogs, bologna, spareribs, pig's knuckles, ham, bacon, pork chops they're adoring them on TV or the big screen. Hollywood has transformed the stinky, snorty critters into lovable pink-bellied icons known affectionately to all of us as "Porky Pig," "Arnold" or "Babe."

In short, Americans (with the exception of orthodox Jews) love pigs.

But to Islamic fundamentalists, they are just stinky, snorty critters the quintessence of uncleanliness.

Indeed, Muslims are forbidden to eat pork by the Koran, their holy book. To knowingly eat pork is to commit an act of sin which could jeopardize their ascension to Paradise.

It's not just meat they have to be careful about eating. They also have to check that cheeses and yogurts even cake frosting don't contain "unclean" byproducts such as pork lard.

When traveling on American jetliners, orthodox Muslims typically order vegetarian meals to avoid the chance encounter with one of Arnold Ziffel's relatives. On Arabic airliners, they ask for a "blessed" meat called halal. Such non-pork meat has been drained of blood during the slaughtering and butchering process. The Koran forbids the consumption of animal blood (which makes pig's blood virtually radioactive, an observation our military might find useful, as I'll explain further on).

So averse to pigs are Islamic fundamentalists, that even coming in contact with them or any part of them, such as their hide means defiling themselves. It's not a sin to touch, say, a pigskin football, but if they do, they are advised to wash their hands immediately.

Pig-fat products are on the list of items Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia has declared to be against the sharia, the ruling clerics' interpretation of Islamic law.

So, you see, pigs are to Islamic terrorists such as Osama bin Laden and his henchmen what kryptonite is to Superman, or what garlic is to Dracula.

Take Mohamed Atta, for example.

The suspected ringleader of the Sept. 11 hijackers was so careful not to eat pork fat that he scraped the frosting from cakes. Here was a man more afraid of eating a hint of pork in a dessert than flying a jet full speed into a skyscraper.

See where I'm going with this?

Few in Washington want to admit it, but these Islamic fanatics have baited us into a holy war. And like it or not, we'll have to use their religion against them to win.

Psychological warfare

U.S. forces should start by dropping leaflets over Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, warning residents, in their native Persian tongue, that we've enlisted Afghani moles to contaminate their water supplies with pig's blood.

The propaganda would also warn that American soldiers have greased their bullets with pork fat. We could tell them, while we're at it, that we've ordered special pigskin-lined fatigues for this mission.

At night, we could bombard bin Laden's camps with recordings of hog-snorting. If he and his fellow terrorists won't come out of their caves, send pen-loads of trotters in to nuzzle them.

Can't find bin Laden? Force-feed Taliban clerics pork rinds until they give up his location. If that doesn't work, air-lift pigs into their mosques.

In the meantime, airlines could reupholster plane seats with pigskin, and cover cockpit yokes with the "unclean" hide to repel future Islamic hijackers. For insurance, serve passengers bacon bits instead of peanuts.

If their religion is driving them to hate Americans, and rewarding them to kill our people, then it's hardly indecent to use their faith against them to protect us.

Hit them where it hurts. They hit us where it hurts and they're already planning to do it again.

They're not afraid of death. However, they are afraid of pigs. Send in the porkers, lock them out of Paradise, and watch them surrender.

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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From:
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 11:21 PM

um....I think some Muslims are also Americans...and also passengers and pilots of airplanes and maybe stewards and stewardesses.. mg

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: Troll
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 01:57 AM

It's not as far-fetched as it sounds. The Sepoy Rebellion in India happened because the Native troops (Sepoys) were told by nationalist agitators that the paper cartridges for their new rifles were greased with pig fat to make them waterproof. This was for the Muslim troops. The Hindus were told it was beef tallow.
For Muslims, the pig is unclean; for Hindus, the cow is sacred. You can see the makings of splendid complications here.
The rumor worked; the troops rose up and began killing all the English men, women, and children they could find.
There's no reason it couldn't work again. You'd just have to be very careful to do it in such a way as not to offend those Muslim countries that retain some small bit of friendship for us.

troll

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:56 AM

I suppose they could try the same kind of pig stuff to push the Israelis and Palestinians into making friends, Amos. After all, that's one of the things the two religions have in common.

I somehow can't see it working though.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 09:03 AM

Yeah, I can really see it..........Arafat and Sharon standing in front of Dubya who is holding a flame thrower looking thing filled with lard...........

Okay, now y'all gonna' siddown an work this thing out or I'm sendin' ya' both ta hell."

Spaw

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 10:01 AM

Warmongering, capitalist pigs!!! :-) This whole buncha nonsense started with the Old Testament. Pity the 3 big religions that arose out of it can't get along with each other.

- LH

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: DougR
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 03:57 PM

Durn, Spaw, I thought you were gonna say standing in front of Bush eating spare ribs.

DougR

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 05:35 PM

Ummmmm, I think they use vegetable shortening in most cake icings these days...............

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 06:30 PM

thanks for your comments Little Hawk, I dont disagree with you although I should have added that when the Japanese politicians were shown the early drafts of the constitution (written by Americans which interestingly enough, included some fairly progressive rights for women thanks to one of the women writers involved) they were shocked - they didnt know what to make of it. Not they were necessarily thankful, they just expected the Americans to leave after a few years but not for them to write their constitution. And incidentally since the womens rights clause was even more advanced than what was guaranteed under the US constitution, the Americans later toned down that section.

BUt it does give something to think about, re a Post Taliban Afghanistan, namely a Marshall plan for reconstruction, with some kind of peace keeping govt) Which would provide enough stability for many educated Afghans to return (and many of them are talking about going) .

Back then, the US had the foresight to see that they didnt want to repeat the Versailles treaty and all that led to wwii.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 06:45 PM

Most of the evils of the 20th Century can be traced back the way the victors screwed up the ending of the First World War.

Most of the evils of this century will probably grow out of the way the victors screwed up the end of the Cold War. And that includes Afghanistan where, once the Russians had pulled out, the West just turned its back on a devastated country.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 08:45 PM

It never seemed to me that Bush could be serious that the U.S. has no intention of engaging in nation-building. There doesn't seem to be any real alternative. I do believe that they would not want to be perceived as setting up a government which would have credibility problems.

I also had a feeling that a few bombs weren't likely to bring bin Laden out of his cave.

So what do you suppose is next? A few special forces incursions, and then . . . Something along the lines of U.N. peacekeeping forces? A big dose of multinational civilization throughout the country, with bin Laden and his friends to act as a cult of assassins if they so choose, until they are finally starved or rooted out? Does NATO have any such authority? Is the U.N. likely? Are there significant Muslim dominated countries who might participate? I sure wish some Arab nations would step up to the plate. If they want respect, as is often reported. . . .

It has been reported that the Northern Alliance fears a conspiracy to divide Afghanistan into two regions. Apparently the Afghanistan-Pakistan border is an artificial Western creation which has been traditionally disregarded by the inhabitants.

Anyone have predictions? No blame for being wrong.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 08:58 PM

The situation in that area is being further complicated by the tensions between Pakistan and India arising over the fate of Kashmir. Secretary Powell appears to be working on that situation now. That's a pretty sticky situation (both countries have nuclear weapons), and it could be a big problem if it isn't dealt with effectively.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 09:01 PM

Yes, I would call it the "Mother of all nasty situations". To predict anything in a mess as tangled as this one would not be easy.

- LH

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 09:18 PM

the Pakistanis dont want a Northern Alliance (or United Front) govt, which doesnt represent the majority Pashtun. BUt it seems likely now that the US is withholding major assaults on Taliban troop concentrations until they have worked out a coalition govt including Afghan govt in exile, other educated expatriots, and the UF possibly with the exking Zahir SHah as a unifying figure, but definitely friendly to Pakistan.

This really should be an opportunity for the UN as well as the OIC to step in and provide a stable transitional govt. (It can be done, it happened in Postwar Europe although with an Iron Curtain to appease STalin.) I also predict that the post Taliban Afghan govt will definitely include moderate Taliban or former Taliban representatives. Many of them are constantly changing sides. I give the Taliban another month or 2 at most. (these guys are not the Mujahadeen (most of the surviving Mujahadeen were in the Northern alliance) Altough Al Qaeda will probably take longer to root out. But when that is done, it will be by Afghanis and not Americans for political reasons. anyway those are my guesses.

I also think there will be an intensified international effort to solve the Palestinian Problem, they really should be given a homeland and many of the Israeli Settlements on their territory should and will be closed. ALthough a Jewish friend of mine thought that perhaps they may just build a wall.

As for India, they should respect the UN resolution regarding Kashmir, ie. let the people decide. Im sure that will be difficult as well.

Also THere should be increased international pressure to settle the differences between the 1st and 3rd world, including forgiving debts, tackling the issues of unchecked globalism (if anything gave it a blow Sept 11 certainly did), Kyoto as well but those may be pipe dreams.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:14 AM

Here's a different take on the prognosis:

"Zhirinovsky Says USA Not Interested In Eliminating bin Laden

RosBusinessConsulting. Wednesday, Oct. 17, 2001, 6:03 PM Moscow Time

The USA in not interested in eliminating or arresting Osama bin Laden, LDPR leader Vladimir Zhirinovsky announced at a press conference in Moscow today. He believes that the main aim of the military campaign in Afghanistan is to weaken India, China and Russia. Zhirinovsky forecasted that military operations in Afghanistan will last 20 or 30 years and they will be accompanied by numerous changes of Afghani leaders and governments. Commenting on the possibility of Russia's participation in this campaign, Zhirinovsky stressed that it is not favorable for this country as well as joining the EU, NATO or WTO. He thinks Russia should change its political priorities and give up its pro-Western political course. Instead, Russia should join the Islamic Conference organization and the organization of economic cooperation between Muslim countries. This would improve Russia's image in the world and will be favorable economically."

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/doc/HotNews.html#6162

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM

So, I, Hurricane? Zhirinovsky is not the only one who opposes the west's handling of this situation. Isn't the support of Putin more important than the opposition of Zhirinovsky. To me, his thinking is pretty "far out," I think.

DougR

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:12 PM

Well, essentially he's a Nazi. Even makes Putin look relatively wholesome. Which is a pretty tall order. These are very troubled times indeed.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
From: heric
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:05 PM

So nothing. Just giving him air time.

Turkey has said they will be glad to lead a multinational peacekeeping force comprised primarily of troops from Muslim dominated nations. I think that was in the Guardian.