BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 06:33 AM

DMcG quoting from the John McTernen article in The Guardian.

"That’s why Starmer shouldn’t give the Tories any quarter. A simple two-line manifesto is all he needs: “Get them out. We will fix it.”"

That made me smile. "Get them out and We will try to fix it.", might be more honest.

Meanwhile here in Kent we have one Labour MP. She won in Canterbury in 2017. The constituency had been represented by a Conservative since its creation in 1918.

From KentOnline


"Last week she was said to be under investigation and not among the Labour Party’s list of approved candidates despite being selected by the local party group, according to reports.

KentOnline has tried speaking to her about the investigations but the MP has not responded to our requests for comment.

Meanwhile, the Labour Party itself also refused to comment when approached by KentOnline regarding Ms Duffield’s selection."

I know she is not everyone's cup of tea, still it does seem a little strange.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 06:41 AM

”BTW - I think Steve uses an iPad (Correct me if I'm wrong). Probably with the default Safari browser. They are a law unto themselves”

That’s exactly what I use, Dave - a 2017 iPad (which I originally bought because the software for my DJI Drone wouldn’t run on my 2012-vintage iPad!) and the standard Safari browser. I find it at least as easy to use for interweb-surfing as my year-old Dell Laptop (Win 11 and either MS Edge or Firefox) and far more convenient.

Your previous post was very interesting, and I hadn’t actually considered the different behaviours between the various browsers. Thanks for the info.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 07:46 AM

You're welcome, John. See DMcG's comment as well.

The number of new systems I have stopped or delayed the roll out on because they cannot be used in a number of circumatances is very high indeed. Occasionaly we would have to use the old phrase 'not supported' (doesn't mean it will not work!) on this browser or that kit. The old 80/20 rule ofthen applies. If it works 80% of the time with 20% of the effort, why spend another 80% effort to get it working on the other 20% !?!

I am long retired now but still have multiple browsers on Android, Windows and Linux devices to check out if one works where another doesn't. The ones I lack are Apple devices - Simply due to cost!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 07:55 AM

Just a little more on my theory about cookies. I tried following the link on my Desktop using Firefox and can read it fine. If I use a private window, which doesn't allow any tracking, following the link in the same way doesn't allow access. I suspect that there is something in The Torygraph's coding that stops people who do not allow tracking reading their stuff.

It's the last link of their's that I shall follow!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 08:18 AM

Yes Dave, I saw DMcG’s post - although there are some people whose posts I choose to always ignore, there are others whose posts I always read, and DMcG is one of the latter. Another good post, of course. On the topic of emails and ‘Junk/Spam Folders’, I make a point of checking my Outlook Junk and Bin folders pretty much daily.

”Moral and relevance of the tale: IT systems are tricksy and just because things work for you does not mean it works for anyone else.”

Absolutely correct. And equally true in reverse. ;-)

BTW, although since retirement my IT skills aren’t as up-to date as they could be, I do have a career-long involvement with IT alongside my accountancy activities, beginning in 1968 aged 21, as a COBOL programmer and company analyst on IBM 1902A Mainframe, through Burroughs VRC programming, user of one of the original IBM PCs (no Hard Drive, just two floppies, Lotus 123 - oh, what fun we had!), a number of years as de facto computer dept. manager whilst officially the Management Accountant, and trainer for the company’s finance, planning, and production IT systems. So, whilst not claiming to have the expertise of some of us here, including yourself, I do believe I have a reasonable modicum of understanding of IT ‘stuff’.

And that puts the issue of Links to bed AFAIC. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 11:14 AM

I never refuse cookies and I still couldn't read it. Anyway, as John Has Spoken, perhaps we can get back to Starmer and Thatcher. I note that he also mentioned Blair as another of his heroes. So we'll be invading Gaza once he gets in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 11:28 AM

He is also fond of Attlee. Perhqps that does not suit your agenda.

I agree that his fondness tor Thatcher will not go down well with all the older voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 12:57 PM

My not mentioning Attlee has nothing to do with any "agenda" you might be ascribing to me (by the way, isn't it amusing that right-wingers always assume that we lefties have "an agenda"! We're reds and what more do you need, eh!) Attlee did a great job for the country after the war but his administration ran out of steam and let the Tories back in after six short years. Starmer will be PM only because the Tories are losers, and my money is on him surviving for far less time than Clem.

Incidentally, Thatcher was a great admirer of Attlee. What a shame that the three of them aren't contemporaries. What a love-in that might have been!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 01:19 PM

"By the way, isn't it amusing that right-wingers always assume that we lefties have "an agenda"

By the way, isn't it amusing that some of tbe older left wingers always presume that younger (not much younger) have "an agenda"

I have never been a member of any political party, just like the vast majority of the UK population.

You spout your cause. Be honest, how many of the population agree with you? Most people just want to improve their personal circumstances. They have little interest in party politics.

Again, I have never voted Tory. I voted remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 01:36 PM

Thatcher had some personal qualities that, if possessed in equal measure by others of a different political stripe, would be regarded by her detractors as desirable and laudable - she was determined, had the courage of her convictions, knew where she wanted the country to go politically, and had a plan to get it there.

In every other respect, she was a complete, absolute, and utter arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 01:46 PM

And people voted for her.

Nowadays the worrying thing is that fewer people turn out to vote.

I am 65. Is there anyone younger than me posting to this thread?

I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 01:54 PM

”I am 65. Is there anyone younger than me posting to this thread?”

Not Guilty, m’lud. 76 at the last count.

I’ve long thought that her election success in the 1979 GE was probably the first time we saw the result of a ‘Personality-Politics’-driven campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 02:00 PM

…Ooops, hit the ‘Go’ button too soon.

Like you, RD, I’ve never voted Tory, I voted ‘Remain’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 02:13 PM

I have the feeling that I am one of the youngest who posts to this thread.

How many (of the handful who post to this thread) have any idea of what the vast population want?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 02:25 PM

It is her legacy of "get what you want and fuck everyone else" that did most damage. In my opinion. We are still suffering from it now. Most people are not selfish by nature but Thatcherism made a virtue of grabbing all you can get and turned caring for others into weakness. The rise of populism is the appeal to the selfish.

Well, it's my theory. Probably bollocks but I still like to share anyway :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 02:49 PM

Can’t disagree with any of that, Dave. As I said, an arsehole in every other respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 02:53 PM

”How many (of the handful who post to this thread) have any idea of what the vast population want?”

I’m guessing none of us can honestly claim that knowledge, RD. But we all probably have a reasonable idea of what we, as individuals, want and I’d suggest that most (though not necessarily all) of us aren’t very different to the majority of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 04:55 PM

How many agree with me! Well I don't know, and neither do you, to answer your cod-rhetorical question. Be honest, you say. Well without making it personal I'd definitely say that, in general, lefties are far more honest and principled than right-wingers, who generally tend to be rather self-serving and me-first. Maybe lefties are not the best tacticians. But if you adopt tactics to win an election, instead of just showing the best of yourself and being honest with the electorate, you might just be having to ditch a principle or two. Maybe that's OK, who knows. Do you suppose that Peter Mandelson or Alastair Campbell always told Blair to tell the unvarnished truth?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 08:01 PM

Good piece in the Guardian pointing out that praising Thatcher was a mistake and providing the arguments for that. A word to the wise, Keir Starmer: whoever advised you to praise Thatcher got it wrong
[John McTernan, who was Tony Blair's political secretary]

If Starmer thinks he's appealing to "swing voters," he's deluded because there are hardly any. What he will do by sucking up to Thatcher's ghost is disillusion the people who are already lined up to vote for him, many without much enthusiasm. People like me, who are already preparing to hold their noses. I won't be changing my mind, but there are millions in this country who were shat on, or their families were, by the despicable Thatcher regime. Clumsy move.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 09:18 PM

Dave the Gnome: It is her legacy of "get what you want and fuck everyone else" that did most damage. In my opinion. We are still suffering from it now.
I suppose the other option was to give in to Arthur Scargill and the mine workers (Who thought they could hold the country to ransom because without coal we weren't sufficient in energy, and the steel mills couldn't run.)
Massive pay rises for the miners would mean higher inflation, and misery for those who couldn't get equivalent rises (and if they could, further fueling inflation).
Good job Maggie made her preparations, and chose her battleground.

And unlike those claiming never to have voted Tory, I have voted Labour at a General Election (but only the once).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 03:22 AM

We shall never know what would have really happened without Thatcherism though will we, Nigel. We do know that with it whole communities were decimated, workers rights were destroyed and the gap between rich and poor started to skyrocket. Funnily enough, I agree that the NUM had become too powerful for it's own good. What I disagree with is that it was a simple binary choice between destroying them or damaging the economy. There could have been a compromise but, as in your 'other option', we will never know!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 05:31 AM

"Massive pay rises for the miners would mean higher inflation, and misery for those who couldn't get equivalent rises (and if they could, further fueling inflation)."

Did this scenario also apply to the "Captains of Industry" and the Banking and Financial bureaucrats who received massive pay rises and continue to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 06:30 AM

Well, they deserved it Raggy. Dangerous job on the trading floor and screwing people over...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 06:46 AM

Raggy: Did this scenario also apply to the "Captains of Industry" and the Banking and Financial bureaucrats who received massive pay rises and continue to do so.

I am also against the 'captains of industry' (and bankers) being paid extreme multiples of what the basic worker gets, and believe it has got out of hand.
However, the massive pay rises for the very few do not greatly affect the average (or median) wage, and so are not effecting inflation in the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 06:51 AM

"Holding the country to ransom" always makes me laugh. You could level that ridiculous accusation against any body of workers who are fighting for higher pay and better conditions, but, oddly, Tories never level the same accusation against non-doms and other ultra-wealthy people who threaten to take their money elsewhere at the mere hint that their taxes might have to go up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 08:49 AM

Nigel. If 999 people earn 100 per week and 1 person earns 1000 a week, the average pay for that 1000 is 199.90 a week. If the 999 ask for a pay increase, we are told that nearly 200 a week is plenty and the workers are holding the country to ransom.

Ok, simplistic but that is how it seems to work nowadays :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 09:02 AM

Sorry Nigel. My apologies for poor arithmetic! No excuse but I do have a man here turning the power on and off and I was distracted! If 999 earn 100 and 1 earn 100000 it should have been of course. Mea Culpa

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 09:17 AM

Nigel. If 999 people earn 100 per week and 1 person earns 1000 a week, the average pay for that 1000 is 199.90 a week.

999*£100 = 99,900
+1,000 = 100,900
/1000 (total people) = 100.90 per week average

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 09:21 AM

Seems you corrected while I was typing.
The new version requires the boss to be on a multiplier of 1,000 of his average workers pay. That still seems a little extreme to use as an example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 12:43 PM

Probably not extreme enought nowadays Nigel!

What percentage of wealth is owned by what percentage of people?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 12:47 PM

The 80/20 rule is more properly: The first 90% of the work takes 90% of the available time. The last 10% also takes 90% of the available time.

Meanwhile, back at the point:

> It happened because Starmer is listening to focus groups of
> swing voters.

That was Tone the Clone's single point of failure, which is more properly called following from the front*. We're stuffed.

* I'm sure I've mentioned this before: it's what our cat does when he thinks there's food in it for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 23 - 01:24 PM

I see Bozo is blaming the WhatsApp app for losing all the messages from the early part of the pandemic. This enquiry is one of the best bits of comic fantasy I have come across in a long time!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 04:13 AM

The resignation of Jennick has set the proverbial cat amongst the pigeons. On "Newsnight" it was speculated that Sunak might make the vote on the new bill a vote of confidence to try to force it through.

On my reading, that would be a tactical error. The right wing are convinced the Conservatives will lose the next election anyway, so their thoughts are not on the party winning the house, but themselves holding their own seat. And they judge the mood of the public is for stronger action on this bill, so they see their best hope lies with voting against it, whether Sunak makes it a confidence vote or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 06:41 AM

Nice dog-whistle news conference from Sunak. Come on you hard-right. Get on board. Let's keep the merry-go-round a-spinning even though I said it won't. Can't you see I'm a desperate man with Cruella snapping at my heels?

By the way, is there a person in the house who can run the country...?

Cruella played it well with Nick Robinson this morning even with his going for her jugular (rather him than me). She kept her cool very nicely whilst saying nothing. We all know what she's up to!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 07:17 AM

It is worth noting that every question from the media was basically the same, though. They are aware this press statement is not going to actually make things easier for Sunak.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 09:52 AM

Every answer was the same too. That part of the press conference was highly-orchestrated. The whole thing reeked of a last-ditch, desperate appeal to his own party, especially those on the right.

Labour are supposedly going to vote against the bill. I'm not aware that Starmer has yet had the courage to say that he'd ditch the whole Rwanda farce. I think he should grow some cojones and say that he will, and tell us what he'd do instead. He can't keep letting the Tories say that "Labour hasn't even got a plan" at every turn.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 08 Dec 23 - 09:48 AM

> Cruella played it well with Nick Robinson this morning even
> with his going for her jugular

Of Livia, Caesar Augustus's missus: "I heard a snake bit her, and died."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Dec 23 - 10:13 AM

How dare Braverman suggest that I am a racist bigot like her BNP/UKIP/EDL/NF/Britain First or other group of neo-nazi s**m chum she needs to court to win their votes by claiing she is nly speaking on behalf of the 'people of Britain'

I demand a personal apology from Nick Robinson for failing to apoligise on line for Braverman's suggestion that as a British National I am racist filth by association.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 23 - 05:47 AM

Bloody painful listen on the Today programme this morning. Mishal Husain had the spluttering, stuttering, clunky, meandering, hesitant Starmer on the back foot all the way through the interview. Hopeless. Worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 24 - 03:10 PM

Bozzer supports Trump

What a surprise. lets just hope that he is as right about this as he was about everything else!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jan 24 - 01:57 PM

Assuming that Starmer will be PM in November, I would what his contingency is for Trump regaining power? I suspect that the orange one will write our PM off as a Communist! I suppose by comparison...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 24 - 05:42 AM

I WONDER what is etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 04:02 AM

It is great news that the DUP has agreed to power-sharing so that Stormont can restart. The people of Northern Ireland deserve to ability to elect their own government, and that is once again restarting, by the sound of it.

However, the Guardian's report on this says "Sinn Féin will get to nominate its inaugural first minister after Westminster legislates to end checks on goods moving within UK and imposition of EU law". And I am afraid that sounds very much like we are going back to square one. It is inherent in having different rules and regulations in the EU and the UK that there is a border somewhere. To be clear, I don;t mean 'border posts', but I do mean a line where the rules differ on each side of it.

Simply saying 'it will not be in the Irish Sea', which this sounds like, just reopens the question "Where is it then?" that has been the problem since day 1 of the negotiations.

I can see only one solution that preserves the GFA and the Windsor Agreement and satisfies the DUP requirement that the rules are the same in NI and the rest of the UK, and that is that every item produced anywhere in the UK has the 'not for sale in the EU' label.

The idea NI does not have to abide by EU law is trickier to address, because that is in the existing agreement with the EU. So that takes us back to before Theresa May's days...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 05:16 AM

Brexit. The gift that keeps on giving!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 05:32 AM

If UK opens up the NI/UK border, against EU law then EU must either reinstate our membership or tear up the NI Treaty (Good Friday Agreement. Although the former would be ideal, the latter would probably be the best thing as there is a good chance of violence and bloodshed resuming in Ulster, and that would teach the tories a lesson (HEAVY IRONY). When families are burying their loved ones again, they need to be grateful to the self-serving chancers who gratified their ego trips and topped up the troughs that their snouts are planted in like johnson, mogg, fartarse. As far as I am concerned, if one life is lost, every nasty little proverbial who voted leave should be convicted of murder, locked up for the rest of their lives or deported to another continent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 05:47 AM

Yes, having repeatedly failed to sort the position of NI arising out of Brexit, despite every variation May-Johnson-Truss-Sunak and their negotiators have been able to come up with, it now looks like they are trying "Let's dump it in Labour's inbox".

Labour cannot sort it either, of course, without addressing the whole EU relationship, not just borders. And so a key part of the Conservative tactics as we approach the next election is going to include a focus on what Labour will do or rule out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 24 - 07:18 AM

From the BBC News

"Labour will block those not fit to be MPs, says John Healey"

If only all parties would do the same. Mind you, we would most likely end up with an empty house of commons...

It is of course with reference to the latest bout of antisemitism due to criticism of the Israeli regime now being treated as antisemitic.

I am heavily sickened by this and those who weaponise antisemitism to defend the actions of a regime hell bent of exterminating the Palestinian people should be ashamed of themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Feb 24 - 07:54 AM

Amen Dave, Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Feb 24 - 02:42 AM

The Tory Party Chairman on BBC Breakfast this morning, struggling manfully to impart a lustre on a sizeable piece of fæcal matter, following their disastrous performance in the two by-elections yesterday. I felt slightly sorry for him initially, but I soon came to my senses.

Worrying to see the Reform UK (formerly UKIP and The BrexShit Party) polling comparatively well. Apparently racism and xenophobia are alive and well in parts of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 24 - 03:32 AM

I Hope Labour win.I think trade deals that puts the uk and europe in a common market situation would be good