Hi Max: Personal edit button?

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 08:04 PM

John (Hardly), The thread question is dead as far as I'm concerned but I've just another read and was wondering where you got this from:

I was once told that an edited post is a MUCH bigger file than would seem proportionate to the size of the post.

I suspect you are confusing it with editing a post using an external editor such as MS Word to produce HTML (as opposed to just straight copy/ paste your text from one to another) to use in a post or for a web page for that matter.

The amount of junk created in that process can be quite horrendous.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:11 PM

"you seem to be saying that you speak for everyone else"

Oh no no no!   Wouldn't DARE to do that... It's more that I'm speaking in terms of general concepts and such...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 11:26 PM

Jon -

I don't know where the info quoted came from, but many "edit" facilities, as used in Word processors for example, retain all of the information in the original, place any new text in a trailer, and place pointers within the text to say "where to go next." This can result in file sizes that are at least the sum of all the versions, and that can get pretty badly "twisted" - and hence slow - in playback.

In older versions of Word, at least, if you "allow fast saves" in your setup, what gets saved is the original document with an appended record of changes in the trailer (end of the file). It was not uncommon to see a "fast save" version 2 or 3 times the size of the actual current document - which you'd get if you did a normal full save so that the changes were actually inserted in place and all the pointers dropped out. This may still be the case in current Word versions, but I learned to prohibit fast saves several versions ago, so I haven't looked.

New versions of Word do allow extensive "change tracking" and if you turn it on, all prior versions are contained in the current document, along with identification of who made each change and when it was made. This is closer to what's done in most database information systems.

Since most web servers are set up using database information, it is most likely that an edit is a new record. The pointer to the data item that is a "post" can be switched from the original record to point to the new one that replaces it, but the old record is seldom actually removed. Deletion merely means that there's no longer a pointer to tell you to look at it - but it remains on the server, at least until some sort of "purge" is done. Even those who don't deal much with database files may see this in an email program, where you need to periodically "compact files" to get rid of the dead records.

The actual amount of excess disk space required for edits is probably insignificant relative to the traffic in new posts, but allowing large numbers of gratuitous edits can significantly increase the number of "dead records." As in the case of the recent mudcat data server troubles, if you need to reconstruct things and/or correct link errors, the presence of even a few such unlinked records can horribly complicate recovery, since you have to determine whether there's no pointer to a record because it was deleted (edited) or because the pointer wasn't recovered in the reconstruction.

I'm not sure I'd agree specifically with the statement that editing makes the files a lot larger, but it certainly can make them a lot more complex and a lot more trouble to maintain.

Maybe John Hardly can provide more information, but I don't have any problem putting "no edits" on the "good side" and "edits" on the "not so good side" for what look to me like sound technical reasons. Just because you can write a simple program to add a feature doesn't enter too strongly in the argument about whether you should add a feature.

John

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 04:35 AM

John (in K), I think we are talking entirely at cross purposes. Let me repharse what I was talking about as an "export to HTML" function. Perhaps you are with me now.

I'm not with you at all with your last paragraph. If you are referring to whether or not the feature should be added to Mudcat, please read my first post in this thread.

As I indicated in my previous post, as far as I'm concerned the decision of whether it should be added to Mudcat has been answered and that issue is dead. That said and now I think you are re-raising that issue at least as a principle with me, FWIW, I disagree with your reasoning.

Every system I use that allows editing has a preview and a means of getting assistance from a mod/clone. On these systems, it has been judged the extra facility is useful and it is used, even by careful posters who proof read. etc.

For the record, as it happens my own judgement call here would be not to have an edit button here but that would be based on the nature of certain threads and posters at Mudcat - I could only see it as becoming the basis of other rows - you changed it -it said that, no it said that, etc. followed by screeds of debate as to where or not somone should have the edit button removed, whther it was a good idea, etc.

In other words, it's not that the idea need be a bad one in principle as some suggest but that I believe it's value is very much dependant on the maturity of the board.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 04:38 AM

So it's not the (theoretical) feature that'd be the problem... it'd be the people...

I agree...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 06:23 AM

Jon -

I wasn't intending to re-raise the issue, and I think we're more in agreement on the technicalities than I was able to make clear in my musings. My bad writing. Feel free to ignore.

John

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:00 AM

There is a preview button where you can inspect your text before you post.
I don't always use it..., but its there.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Dave'swife
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:05 AM

I belong to a few boards where you have a personal edit option on your own posts only until somebody responds. Works for me

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:29 AM

JiK described what I was told -- that deletions aren't actually deleted -- that every version of an edit is still ultimately saved, despite what may be accessible to the average BB reader.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:42 AM

"Look out how you use proud words
They walk off proudly,
They wear long boots
They wear hard boots
They can't hear you calling
Look out how you use proud words." (Carl Sandberg)

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: mooman
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:54 AM

I personally don't have any problem with it as it stands at the moment.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:56 AM

I some could work that way if one felt there was a need to backtrack. The only ones I've coded are the ones on the Annexe and folkinfo and they simply replace the old message with the new one (UPDATE SQL clause).

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 10:13 AM

FWIW, I've just looked through the code for the open source phpbb which is one of the most popular boards. They just replace the same as me. One difference in thier update funtion I did notice is that they maintain a "post edit" count.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 10:36 AM

"I did notice is that they maintain a "post edit" count."

So that they can put at the end of an edited post...

"This post was last edited by *User name* for a total of *number* times"

For what ever reason....

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:00 AM

"a few boards where you have a personal edit option on your own posts only until somebody responds"

Actually, that seems a sensible compromise - IF it could be implemented easily here.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 10:55 AM

Allowing self-edit until a response is posted, but not afterwards makes a lot of sense ~ moreso than having a time limit. That thought occurred to me when I first saw this thread.

I can certainly live without the self-edit, though, and learned from this thread that simply reposting a corrected posting (right away, I assume) can have the same desired effect.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:05 AM

I think it's really insulting to keep this discussion going, when Max has already said NO.

~S~

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:15 AM

Why?

We're not discussing This Place... we're discussing Edit Post features in general...

Get over yourself Wysiwyg...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: nutty
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:20 AM

I agree with you Susan. Keeping the discussion going seems like an implied criticism OF Max .... but then some of the people posting here are always very ready to criticise Max.


The grass may always seem greener but as we know that is rarely the case.

Please people just be satisfied with what you've got.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 12:01 PM

CH, why not start a new thread to discuss edit features in general? Continuing this thread, titled the way it is, does seem like arse-kicking Max when he's down enough as it is.

kat

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:58 PM

"seems like an implied criticism OF Max .... "
"seem like arse-kicking Max..."
Well it's not... so get over it... I'm sure if MAX felt he was being kicked, he'da said something... your indignation on his behalf is unnecessary... He's a big boy... he can speak for himself... His silence says more than your whining and sucking ever will

" Please people just be satisfied with what you've got"
What a wanker way to live ones life....

"edit option on your own posts only until somebody responds"
That's neat... I've never seen a site like that, but I have seen edit option that don't get NOTED until someone replies to your post... after that you get the tag note as I mentioned above...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:47 PM

I've not seen that one either Clinton although I did find something similar when I looked at phpbb yesterday. That one allows the admins to decide whether deletions are allowed as well as edits. The built in rule for a deletion by a user is just that - it is dissallowed if the post has been replied to.

I've not looked at which way they implement it. Probably they take advantage of a post having a sequentially allocated unique ID or use the date/time stamp, either of wich could work but when thinking about that approach, it did lead me to wonder what you do in this scenario...

Lets say a post was replied to and that reply was then deleted (and there are no other replies). Would you say that the earlier post no longer classes as being replied to as the reply no longer exists or would you take the historical view and say it was once replied to?

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:08 AM

What the heck. If Max is offended by the ongoing of this thread he can, you know, edit it. *grin*

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:05 PM

If you're answering my question Max, "would it be hard to do up?" then glad to hear it! I didn't ask if you would do it. I know better than that. I do think changing the "preview" button to read "edit" would probably encourage more frequent usage but I would NEVER presume to suggest that you do something like that. l,h

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:47 PM

I do love watching that woman work.

Mick

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM

hmmm, her logic is certainly interesting. Changing "preview" (what you are about to post) to read "edit" (what you have already posted) eh? ;-)

-----
One thing I don't understand with preview is why (at least) I miss so much. As an example, I "always" use preview if I use more than one (eg a phrase in italics) bit of HTML. On the Annexe code in the preview page I print a line between two "HRs" that says something like:

"If all HTML codes are off, this line will appear in plain text"

And I can still fail to notice that line is in bold or whatever.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:47 PM

You would have to change 'preview' to 'display and edit' to have the same logical meaning - as the write is not 'committed' at that stage, i.e. it is not yet part of the database, and exiting at that stage would lose the post.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 01:39 AM

Jon -

why (at least) I miss so much ...

Its spelled O.p.t.o.m.e.t.r.i.s.t.?

I just tell people "I'm old, I'm entitled, get over it."

Just jokin' of course.

The preview screen here is truly just a preview. You can't change anything in what pops up so you can't logically call it an "Edit" place - you have to go back to your "Submit Message" box to make any changes, so it would appear that "Preview" is the proper name as currently implemented. The suggestion for a rename might well apply where it's implemented a little differently.

Wanting it to be something else is sort of a personal problem? For some, a label like "what it's gonna look like if you post it like it you typed it" might be more meaningful maybe, but that seems a little much.

John

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 04:36 AM

Dunno about "just jokin'", John. I really should see an optician. I'm OK on this computer but reading a book is another matter, especially in poor light. I've taken to using a discarded pair or reading glasses for some things, eg. I was trying to solder a couple of components on some 0.1" strip board. I couldn't see what I was doing without them... I'm guessing it could just be the standard "old age deteriation" but I'm a bit worried that light seems to play such a part and my night vision driving a car with headlamps coming towards me is noy as good as it was - have been wondering what a cateract would cause...

-----
Onto the use of terms, I have seen the other end of the scale where we just used single letters for the action required. Not too bad until you find one programmer has decided D stands for Display and another on the same system that D stands for Delete...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 04:37 AM

ROFLMAO...