BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge

Subject: BS: Parents jailed by Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:36 PM

Well, technically speaking it wasn't a Taleban court, but it might just as well have been, it seems to me.

Here's the story - Mother jailed for serving alcohol to youths - just heard it on the BBC news, and came through to check it.

It sounds as if most parents I know would be at risk of jail if we lived in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:57 PM

Sorry, Kev, but the woman was a bit foolish. We can allow our own children to drink in our own homes, but not other people's kids. I do think the sentence is a bit OTT tho.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:01 PM

Wow. See, - maybe because I am American - I think she was seriously stupid.

In this country you can serve alcohol at home to your own child - you CANNOT serve it to other people's kids. And 16 is a heck of a long way from 21.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:18 PM

Typical left-wing crap - Judge for yourselves

Thread Title - "Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge"

Opening remark by extremely well know lefty socialist journalist MGOH:

"Well, technically speaking it wasn't a Taleban court"

Simple question you PRAT - if it wasn't "strictly speaking" a Taleban Court why broadcast it as being so? Misrepresentation? Deliberate lie? As a self confessed "Journalist" have you actually got any sort of commitment, or obligation, to reporting the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:22 PM

Ah, I can see that this is going to be another courteous, intelligent thread where people respect each other's point of view but *politely* disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:25 PM

Putting her in jail will serve no purpose that I can figure. Yes, it was stupid and she should not have misled the other parents, but it sounds like the judge was trying to make an extreme example. He'd do better to make convicted drunk drivers never get behind the wheel, again.

I'd hate to see what they'd do my old English teacher who served us green beer at her house on St. Patrick's Day and we were all underage. No, none of us drove.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:36 PM

So, ahhhh, we are trying to push "family values" in this country??? 27 months is over the top and will most likely ***destroy*** this family...

The time (27 months for each parent) does ***not*** equal the crime...

These parents even took away the kids car keys and all the kids agreed to stay there... Was this right??? No, but 27 months is quite Tabiban-ish...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:49 PM

That was a really stupid thing to do, but I agree, this judge has pretty well demolished that family. If the kid thinks that he's a victim and gives up his plans, that is his choice, but someone needs to talk to him about that.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Maryrrf
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:57 PM

I have to agree with most of what has been said - that was really a stupid thing to do. The laws are very clear about serving alcohol to minors - it's a no no. But the punishment was over the top. I don't know what that judge was trying to prove, but community service or something of that sort would have been more appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: heric
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 10:08 PM

400 bucks worth of booze for thirty sixteen year olds? I'm glad I don't live in Harlow. What a party town!

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: heric
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 10:15 PM

That's about a case (12) of beer for each little punk. That family wasn't on their way to socioeconomic success.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 10:30 PM

Let's explore a different angle. Suppose that one of the kids had gone driving, notwithstanding the confiscation of the car keys. Suppose a kid had been killed.

Would we still say that the sentence was over the top? Or would we say, What the devil was she thinking?

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:46 PM

I don't know that our friends in the UK realize the degree to which American kids have, and drive, cars. The student parking lots at most high schools are huge--and most kids over 16 either drive to school, or ride in a friend's car. Virtually all socializing revolves around the car, and for a lot of kids, no wheels=no social life.

Kids, cars, and alcohol are life and death issues here. Most graduating classes have lost one or more classmates in alcohol related auto accidents, and the accidents can be dramatic incidents with multiple victims. So a lot of people are very angry at those who sell or serve alcohol to kids--including this judge--

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:20 AM

She did take the keys, though, so the supposition won't stand in this case. At least that is according to the reports in the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:46 AM

How clever would a kid have to be to sneak back a key? No one is watching every single one of thirty kids.

Besides, that is not really the issue. No one should have to police thirty kids- and if the adult hadn't provided alcohol, they wouldn't have had to be policed.

The bottom fact is that no adult has the right to break the law - with the risks attendant on this one - with MY kid. If that had been my daughter at that party I would be furious with the host.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:18 AM

This is puritanism run mad. Of course young people under whatever the local age for drinking alcohol is drink at parties. I'm not into child law but I'm not sure that the supply of the alcohol to the "children" would have been an offence in England at all, although if the young people were under the relevant age (which I have a feeling might be 14 or 16) buying it for them might have been.

I think, McGrath, that I agree with you here as much as I disagree with you on the driving speed thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 03:12 AM

"...the couple had misled parents who telephoned to ask if alcohol would be served."

Sounds pretty irresponsible to me. Is this another case of parents who want to be 'friends' with their children? Maybe they should concentrate on being judicious parents.

I will say the sentence seems a bit stiff when you compare it to the Paris Hilton case.

Seems to me a hefty fine (for a first time offence) would work just as well. What's the point of such a lengthy jail term? Do they think that this kind of punishment will reform the mother? Sounds like she just needs a reality check.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:55 AM

It sounds as if most parents I know would be at risk of jail if we lived in the USA.

And that is also true for many more countries in Europe and many more parental behaviours.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:16 AM

I think the key here is the driving age in the States as opposed to Europe. Kids here can drive from the age of 16, and a lot do. That means that they have control of what can be a deadly weapon at a much earlier age. Add alcohol to that and you have a recipe for disaster.

I think that the sentence was too severe but maybe this judge has seen, all too often, the result of teenage drinking and driving. I would have thought that educating these parents, maybe by putting themn face to face with accident victims or with alcoholics who picked up the habit early might have more of an effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:20 AM

Note the judge wanted 8 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:25 AM

Recent studies have shown that alcohol is poison to developing brains, and that kids who drink at the age of 16 are highly likely to have a serious problem with alcohol in later life.
There is a good reason for the ban on underage drinking, and it's not all because they tend to be irresponsible.
Just last year some idiot served beer at a party and one of the underage boys went out and drove his car into a guard rail killing everyone in the car but himself. Their lives were ended, and his will be ruined forever. All for a few beers. STUPID!!

RB, how would you like to meet this clown at 100 mph?

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Grab
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:42 AM

There's no way she should have been supplying so much drink to those kids. Yes, most European parents have let their kids try wine and beer, but the amount of booze she got seems to indicate she was supplying enough for a fair session. It's not like it was just a glass of champagne each to make the meal special.

But the sentence is way excessive, and as has been said, the jail term has basically trashed their son's future. Not clever.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 09:22 AM

If asolescents would learn to drink for the taste, they wouldn't binge as adults. What many Americans tend to forget is that the point of alcohol isn't supposed to be getting drunk; it's to aid digestion. Not all drugs are - or have to be- party drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 09:53 AM

If youngsters actually remembered their first taste they'd never drink again. Few substances containing alcohol taste good.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:01 AM

Whatever the opinions here, I wish we would not call each other names. I know McGrath, and he is a good and intelligent fellow. Name calling simply takes away from the point of the name caller.
All the best
lor

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:10 AM

And, name calling can get you deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:26 AM

As it appears to.

My kids have beer or wine with meals periodically when the meal calls for it. They haven't for a while because I'm working on losing weight and alcohol doesn't aid that goal.

My son (then 14) and I were at the grocery store self-checkout about a year ago and a woman ahead of us in line put too many bottles in a plastic bag. The wine promptly fell out and shattered. He commented that "that wine smells good." I agreed, and asked him what meal he'd drink it with, and I think he named fajitas--a beef dish with lots of flavors that the wine would compliment nicely. Good choice, and what I want him to learn. Use it like a food, not a drug.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:30 PM

kids who drink at the age of 16 are highly likely to have a serious problem

That'd be just about everyone I know.

I suppose the thing is, it's a different culture. We're more relaxed about drinking, maybe too relaxed, in the USA you're a lot more relaxed (dare I call it "liberal") about driving.

Here anyone who drives a car on the highway at 16 is committing a serious offence, is probably joyriding in a stolen car and is highly likely to be on the road to serious criminality in adult life. Over there it's legal, normal, and, I get the impression, almost compulsory.
......................
No, Teribus, it wasn't a Taleban court Maybe I should have put inverted commas round "Taleban" to avoid confusion. My point was that a judge who handed down eight year sentences in this case, when even the prosecution only asked for 90 days, would appear to be someone who would have been at home in such a court.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Greg B
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:36 PM

'Keg' parties are a bad idea here in the old US of A.

Even if nobody drives, the combination of alcohol and teenagers
seems to turn into fights and/or property damage. Teens aren't
too bright to start with--- toss a sixer of beer into them and
it can get real ugly real quick.

This is the point where they're finding out if they're happy
drunks or mean drunks.

Don't know about you, but I'd as soon not have the sorting-out
process happen in my back yard.

To say nothing of the inconvenience of having piss- and puke-drunk
kids pissing and puking the place up.

Perhaps the judge is just fed up of having to deal with the results
of teen drinking. Or is tired of parents flouting the law and
throwing 'keggers.' And the woman DID take upon herself the rights
of 30 or so other parents to say 'no.' The way things work over
here, it's likely that the sentence will be suspended or in some
other way ameliorated.

My G/F's son wants to have a 'keg party' for his 21st. Including,
of course, his under-21 friends. The answer is a resounding 'NO.'
Not even a consideration. And not just because it's the law, but
because anybody who's been around a few drunk 15 to 21-year-olds
doesn't care to repeat the experience. These are people who drink
with the intention of getting as shit-face drunk as quickly as
possible. Oh yeah, we're having BIG fun now.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Grab
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:43 PM

Kendall, note the purpose for having the kids round her place and removing all the car keys...

Practically the whole of Europe (especially France) manages to handle drinking by young people without significant drink problems in later life. The problem is a societal thing - the UK has always featured significant quantities of drink as part of its requirements for a "good night out", and it seems to me like the US does too. US behaviour amongst young adults suggests that a higher age limit for alcohol doesn't decrease amount of drunkenness or reduce the number of alcoholics.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:46 PM

"The couple's sentences were reduced to 27 months on appeal."

I'd love to be able to work up some sympathy for the woman but I can't. She knew she was breaking the law and was very deliberate about doing it anyway. Two years sounds about right to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Greg B
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:15 PM

Graham, I beg to disagree. There are significant problems 'later
in life' in Europe. They go on to be 'football fans.' C.F. the
thread on this board regarding plastic beer glasses in UK pubs.

Culturally, Europe seems to be more permissive regarding alcohol,
and they probably 'teach their children to drink' in moderation more
effectively than the US's Puritan-inspired approach.

Oddly enough, the US is still trying to figure out how to let
people drink and drive, while Europe's given up on that idea
entirely.

But please note--- the very fact of taking the keys and confining
the kids indicated that trouble was expected. Only thing is, to
do it right, it wouldn't be just the keys to be removed.

You'd have to cut down all the trees on the property, remove
anything breakable, pad all knuckles, and have genitalia checked
at the door, for return next morning. Each participant should be
issued his or her own bucket, with adult-size diapers (nappies)
optional. Ideally, the beer would need to have a testosterone-
suppressant mixed in.

Probably a good idea to rent one of those automated defibrillator
thingies, since kids seem to find ways to alcohol-poison themselves
from time to time (probably the one who smuggled in a bottle of
Bacardi 151 proof rum).

It is what it is. Take 30 American teenagers, add an unlimited
supply of beer, and you have a recipe for disaster. Whether that's
the case with European kids or not, I can't say. But teens in the
US just don't have the judgment, maturity, or experience to keep
that kind of a situation fun or anything like safe, no matter how
many car keys you collect. Oh 20 or 25 or 27 of them may be fine
or at worst just piss drunk or even sick. But 1 or 2 or three will
be a danger to themselves or others.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: jeffp
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:40 PM

And weren't the pub hours extended to all night to ameliorate the problem of drunken yobs pouring out at closing time and causing trouble? Very well handled, that.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:38 PM

Pub closing hours were only introduced as a temporary measure during the first world war. It never really made much sense having a rule that all the pubs had to close precisely at the same centrally ordained time right across the country.

Much more sensible to let pubs choose the hours to suit themselves and their clientèle, which has generally been how it's done in most countries, which is more or less how it works now in England.

Open all night? Afraid not. Where'd the profit be in keeping staff on to serve in an empty pub in the small hours? And they'd have to get it agreed by the local licensing authority, which wouldn't be likely to happen, apart from some pretty unusual situations.
..........................
Anyway, this should ensure that in future young Americans under 21 will have to do their drinking away from any adults with daft ideas like confiscating car keys. And then they'll drive home drunk and some of them won't make it.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:28 PM

Kids are kids and some of them are going to drink no matter what you do. But part of their education needs to be that when someone breaks the law that there are consequences. And the sooner they learn that lesson the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:01 PM

That's how the Taleban felt too...

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Greg B
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:07 PM

I'm sorry, I just don't buy into the argument that we ought to have
keg parties to keep kids from drinking unsupervised. By that logic,
we perhaps ought to keep a store of marijuana and perhaps some crack
cocaine in the house, so that they can experiment in a 'safe'
environment.

Oh, it's one thing to invite Johnny or Jill to have a beer with
Mum and Dad while watching the Super Bowl or the World Cup. It's
quite another to invite 30 or so of their best, underage, friends
over for a royal piss-up.

That's not a 'safe' environment. In fact it's bloody well dangerous.

I know a kid with a smashed-in eye socket and a detached retina
who might well be able to testify to that--- he got it at an underage
drinking party, when he asked a kid who was going off on another kid
"what's your problem?"

That's not an 'outside' example. I could give more, ranging from just
being drunk and stupid and destructive to outright violence with
bodily harm.

So this "let them do it supervised" theory that was probably what
the folks in jail were thinking is pretty much bunk.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:34 PM

So that stuff doesn't happen at other get-togethers?

In this case there are no indications in any of the stories that there was any kind of trouble. And apparently none of the kids in this party back in 2002 were even over the alcohol limit for driving when tested, which is a fair way short of being fighting drink for most people. It sounds like it must have been a pretty restrained do.
.................................

I'd have thought if you're old enough to get married or join the army without asking permission from your parents you should be old enough to buy a drink, but I gather that's not the case in the States.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Becca72
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:22 PM

My post disappeared...

My thought is that 27 months is just about 1 month per kid she put in harm's way. And she did lie to other parents. The sentence seems fair to me given that information.

In the US it is against the law to supply minors with alcohol...which is exactly what she did, 30 times. Ok, 29 times if you don't count her own son...

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Greg B
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:27 PM

McGrath---

Knuckles meeting faces? No, it hasn't happened at any of the 16th birthday parties we've thrown. Generally the greatest risk to life
and limb is an over-abundance of cholesterol. And at ADULT parties where there's a keg, I've never known a fistfight to break out, or someone to climb a tree in a drunken state, etc. This is truly
frightening stuff.

Good on the police for getting there BEFORE anybody was over .08,
or fighting drunk.

And 16 is not old enough to enlist, nor to make the matrimonial
mistake without parental consent.

Some states did have a drinking age of 18 (which is the usual
legal age for marriage and for enlistment), but most have changed
it to 21.

Again, it is what it is. Perhaps the Puritan ethics of the US
or the 21-year-old drinking age, or the lack of alcohol tolerance
that results, or the tendency to binge are different here. But
again IT IS WHAT IT IS.

And I can tell you, as a gen-u-ine, dyed-in-the-wool, (Ugly)
American that a significant number of these events get out of
hand and come to at least one bad end.

And THAT is why the judge threw the book at those adults: in
this culture, a 'kegger' creates serious problems.

Now, I feel the 'punishment' should have 'fit the crime.' Maybe
he should have required them to host a weekly AA meeting in their
home for a year or two. Maybe he should have required them to attend
AA meetings for two years. Extreme personal inconvenience, without
causing economic harm to the family would have been better.

But these parents were WRONG WRONG WRONG to have violated the law
in the way they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:45 PM

I agree with Greg B just about every step of the way. I would not have sentenced someone to jail for it but I would definitely want some kind of understanding to come out of this situation.

By the way, McGrath, you say: "I'd have thought if you're old enough to get married or join the army without asking permission from your parents..."; are you explicitly saying that in the UK youngsters of 16 can enlist in the military or get married without permission of the parents or guardian? If so, that seems just about as barbaric to me as the US alcohol laws seem to you. In these times a 16-year-old kid getting married is beyond the pale. Or risking his life for his country, for that matter. They haven't finished growing physically yet, not to mention the mental, emotional growth he or she can eventually legitimately expect. I find it hard to believer that in the UK youngsters are innately, perhaps genetically, so superior.

It would be interesting to know who the "unknown caller" was who blew the whistle and brought the police into it. I suspect it was one of the seven youngsters who did NOT take a drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: heric
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:58 PM

>>And apparently none of the kids in this party back in 2002 were even over the alcohol limit for driving when tested . . <<

They only tested kids that didn't escape into the woods from this supervised soiree when the cops busted it up (due to complaints from neighbors.) I can't believe that there are those among us who see these people as role models for American civilization and its maturation, and their detractors as Taliban. . .

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:02 PM

This old argument that if a guy can fight for his country, he should be able to drink is apples and oranges. Joining the army doesn't destroy brain cells.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:12 PM

Okay, let's get real here....

Cell phones and driving don't mix either... The combination can get you killed... Driving 90 mph can get you killed... Driving a car with a bad tire can get you killed...

There are a loty of stupid stuff that both kids and adults do that can get you killed...

If we are going to break up a family by taking a kids parents outta the home for 27 months then why not just give a manditory 27 month sentence for anything that is dangerous???

That is what this boils down to...

This is a case of over-reaction because of the good work that MADD has done... Now we need some Mad Mothers to go after the the rest of the shopping list of stupid thing we do...

The only way that we can be safe is to put about 90% of the population behind bars... No room for that many people??? Just take 'um out on the soccer field and kill 'um... Taliban style...

Spit...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:54 PM

Bobert, it might be easier to gather the non-lawbreakers and incarcerate them For their own protection, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 09:46 PM

She was not jailed for doing something stupid, or anti social, or anything except BREAKING THE LAW.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 01:26 AM

Its really beyond my comprehension that a parent would provide alcohol for a party of thirty, 16 year olds. WHAT WAS SHE THINKING?

My daughter's 16th birthday party consisted of a Madonna pinata that was constructed a week in advance, 80's attire and a trampoline. There was no alcohol.

The mother deserves a jail sentence for raising a kid with no imagination and for supporting self-destructive diversions. The fact that she encouraged other kids without their parent's permission is disgusting. He should have sentenced her to parenting classes.

She's lucky I wasn't the judge.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 01:43 AM

. . . and George Bush and Dick Cheney will never serve a day. Makes ya wonder about the law, doesn't it!

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:28 AM

Y'know, McGrath, I agree entirely with you - indeed I might go further, but although you can take a horse to water, I don't think you can get the extreme puritans here to take a drink - or indeed, let other people take a drink.

Supervised parties for mid-teens (not too much supervision) are an excellent forum for young people to learn about life, experiment a little, not get hurt.

I remember one occasion when my daughter (probably about 15 at the time) was invited to a party at a friend's. We had ourselves had a party the week before and I had bought a 1.5 litre bottle of a a good strong cider (6.4%) for a friend who was supposed to be coming and who was a cider drinker. He no-showed. It was still in the larder.

Cunningly Rachel asked her mother, not me, whether she could take it to the party. Her mother rashly said "it's only cider, OK". We had a rule not to contradict each other, but I did later take Rachel aside and explain that it wasn't Strongbow, it was proper cider, and that while I knew she was sensible, she ought to take care that her friends took care too. Her friend who was having the party was there too and her eyes lit up.

The friend (girl of same age) liberated the bottle at the party and drank it all, and fell over behind a sofa, and felt rather poorly the following day.

You know what they BOTH said to me the following day? "Don't you just hate it when grown-ups are right!" Lesson learned, no harm done, adult infallibility preserved. Job done. We've only ever once had to rescue Rachel from an alcohol-involved situation in her entire life. She's 23 now and doing fairly well.

Of course at that party there were no kids with car licences, and only about two with motor-bike licences, the keys to which were taken on arrival.

It seems to me the sentenced mother took reasonable precautions, and produced an outcome that was good for everyone except the religious right. God save America.

Surely the Prohibition experiment still teaches something?

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:04 AM

I am not and never have been a member of the religous right. We have laws that are put in place to protect us from ourselves, and to protect our young from the scoff laws who insist on doing as they please regardless of the law.
Logic says booze and teens don't mix. They are not able to handle it, and some become adults who STILL can't handle it.
That woman's sentence was harsh, but what would she have gotten had one of those kids escaped and killed himself or another?

If Bush and Cheney are CONVICTED, they will also get punished.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:37 AM

I haven't heard one Catter condone what these parents did, just the severity of the sentence... A couple hundred hours in community service working in a local alcohol treatment program would have been more appropriate...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:19 AM

Booze and teens mixed reasonably well in my life and in the lives of my contemporaries, and in the lives of my son and his contemporaries. Not always, but by and large. I think booze and teens probably mix better than cars and 16 year olds.
.................

As for "Joining the army doesn't destroy brain cells" - actually it can have precisely that effect, unfortunately. All depends where the kid gets shot.

.......................
As I understand it the law here would have been precisely the same if these young people had all been 20.
............................

I won't dispute that in the setting it was a stupid thing to have a party like this, just as it would have been in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. You have to take some account of the customs and restrictions of the society in which you live.

But even allowing for that this was a shockingly brutal sentence. It appears that the parents were offered a 90 day sentence if they had pleaded guilty in a plea bargain - their penalty for fighting the case was for that to be increased to eight years. This was achieved by multiplying together the maximum laid down for the offence by the total number of young people involved. Eight years, reduced on appeal to 27 months. I suppose they should be grateful it wasn't increased...

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: GUEST,AG
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:00 AM

"What if" one of the kids had a spare set of car keys, left and was killed after his parents has specifically called prior to the party to assure there would be no alcohol?

"Community service" too?

Prevention is a wonderful concept and in this case, the sentence should help promote it.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:05 AM

"I did later take Rachel aside and explain that it wasn't Strongbow, it was proper cider ... "


An important distinction, as the old song reminds us:


Oh, the picnic now is over,
And the boys again are sober,
And they'll only taste the cider for to know;
If it's hard they'll take it light,
If it's soft, they'll leave it quite,
But they'll not forget The Picnic at Gros Haut!

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:23 AM

All I know is I never encouraged my kids to drink either by word or action, and none have become alkies. In fact, I've never seen any of them take a drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: heric
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:39 AM

I just look forward to the day when American youth can advance and become mature, responsible, even sophisticated drinkers, like the English LOL. Party on!

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: heric
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:44 AM

Hey, we are having a secret meeting of Progressive Youth for advancement of society. Don't tell your parents. It's to protest political and cultural repression. It's in the woods near the dump behind the trailer park. My mom's bringing the booze for everybody. We can change the world, man.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:59 AM

And which side are you on, heric?

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: heric
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 10:01 AM

I'm all for drinking to excess, fighting and driving. I loved em all in my day. I don't see it as cultural advancement, that's all. And people do get hurt. Some very badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 10:34 AM

This business about alcohol law enforcement isn't puritanism--. In 1980, when Candy Lightener started MADD(Mothers Against Drunk Driving), there were 26,000 alcohol related traffic fatalities each year, with many times that number injured. The general attitude about drunk driving was a nod and a wink--after 27 years of lobbying and public education, law enforcement has increased, and people are less tolerant--the result is that alcohol related fatalities have fallen to around 15-16,000 per year,, which is still an apalling number--

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:21 AM

The thing that kills people is the driving.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Greg B
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:34 AM

I don't know why someone would have a keg party for
underage kids in their home anyway.

What the hell do they think universities are for?

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: heric
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:40 AM

Exactly.

I didn't make that part up about kids escaping into the woods when the cops arrived. This was not a well chaperoned educational event. It was not a physiology experiment in a well controlled environment. She is not a progressive intellectual or freedom fighter martyred by a repressive society. This was just a BIG teenage piss-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:41 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:10 PM

"The thing that kills people is the driving."

NO - The thing that kills people is people driving drunk.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:26 PM

All road accidents are caused by drunk drivers? I wish that was true. If it were there would be a lot fewer road accidents than there actually are.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM

In America road accidents caused by drunk driving is the primary cause of teen deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Greg B
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 01:50 PM

Close, Ebbie. But not strictly correct.

Motor vehicle fatalities are the leading cause of deaths of
teens between 16 and 20. 25% or so involve alcohol. The rest
are caused by other things which seem to relate to being teens
behind the wheel, most specifically distraction or aggressive
driving.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:08 PM

Greg, your figures are probably correct, but I read that it was 31%, not 25, of teen accidents that were alcohol involved (2004)- and that's not figuring in the older drivers who may have been drinking and involved teens in an accident.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:21 PM

It sounds like a rare old clash of cultures here. What surprises me here from the American side is the assumption that teenagers are likely to drink and drive. I do not deny that it happens in the UK, but I do not believe we work on the assumption that drunk teenagers will attempt to drive a car. I also believe that such an assumption would be unjustified. People do stupid things when they drink. However, I do not believe most teenagers get drunk when they drink beer. Some do and most do not.
In Germany, where I live, sixteen year olds can legally drink beer in a pub or a restaurant until either ten o' clock or midnight. They are not allowed spirits. Most teenagers drink responsibly for most of the time. The drinking age is eighteen.
I am struck by the assumption of the Americans that driving a car is the only practical form of transport. I assume that because of the greater distances, there is no alternative in many cases. I guess we just have a different culture in Europe and we find it puzzling that young people should be prevented from drinking at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:43 PM

Alanabit - Yes - you don't understand the culture. The point of this party was NOT what you think of as social drinking. When you get kids of this age together and give them beer in a party situation they're going to try to get drunk. I wasn't there - but does anyone really think that any of those kids stopped drinking after one beer? Or two?

But getting back to the woman in this case. She gambled and lost. She gambled that she wouldn't get caught. She got caught. She gambled that she wouldn't get a stiffer sentence than the 90 days she was offered. She should have taken the 90 days. She didn't - she lost. I can't feel sorry for her.

And even though it wasn't a crime she told lots of parents that there wasn't going to be beer at the party. If effect she said that those parents didn't know how to raise their own children - that their rules didn't count - and she was going to do what she damned well pleased. She lost. Tough luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Greg B
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:48 PM

It's not a 'clash of cultures' but rather different cultures and
geography and the consequences thereof.

The fact is that American kids are generally not legally permitted
to drink prior to age 21 in nearly every state (maybe all by now).
The reality is that from the age of 18, they 'get away' with it;
however the consequences can be very severe. In some states, a
teen who is arrested for drinking has his or her driving license
suspended for a period of time even if no driving was involved
in the offense!

One might argue that these kinds of restrictions and prohibitions
just lead to excesses--- rather than having a pint in the pub and
going on his way, the youth indulges in excesses of drink at parties
that are devoted to drink and precious little else.

One might argue that, but as I have said again and again in this
thread 'it is what it is.' American teens are the rankest amateurs
when it comes to alcohol consumption.

As to driving, the cultural taboo (as well as the legal consequences)
to driving under the influence seem to be much greater in Europe
than in the US. In the US, it's a matter of not getting caught rather
than in truly believing that it is a bad thing to do.

And yes, there is very little public transport here in the suburbs
where most of these events take place. And again, the stigma against
teen drinking may make the teen hesitate to ring up mum and dad and
say 'I've had a few beers, can you drive me home?' So the kid is apt
to try and 'get away' with driving after said few beers.

Into this cultural and societal state add a parent who thinks it
makes sense to buy a keg for 30 16-year-olds and it becomes a mess.

The society has to let it's sixteen-year-olds either drink properly,
or not drink properly. The in-betweens are what foul things up.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:49 PM

An interesting thought put out by Camille Paglia..my oh so favorite columnist...she said there is this thing with mothers attempting to keep their daughters juvenile so mothers won't appear to be aging...well, I guess this is the opposite..trying to be pals with the friends of your teens. Never works..never ever. mg oh someone will prove me wrong I am sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:21 PM

Putting aside the issue of drinking and teenagers, the thing that sticks out as really disturbing is this notion that justice is to be properly seen be a matter of gambling - plead guilty and get 90 days, fight the case and you get eight years.

Courts are supposed to be about hearing the evidence and convicting purely on the evidence, with no pressure being placed on defendants that could affect how they plead. That principle appears to have been thrown completely out of the window in cases like this, and many others.

"She gambled that she wouldn't get a stiffer sentence than the 90 days she was offered." Eight years.

It seems to me a pretty heavy indictment of any justice system where that kind of thing can truthfully be said. (And I know it happens in other places, not just the USA.)

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:26 PM

She brought it on herself. She was very deliberate about breaking the law. That was her choice. No crime - no sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 01:14 AM

There is a big difference between allowing your teens wine with dinner and buying cases of alcohol for 30 teen-agers and lying to their parents. Both my kids were allowed wine on special occasions and neither of them ever thought that getting drunk was something to do for entertainment. No lectures needed.

This is a matter of safety and consideration for others. I'd be furious if I found out someone was supplying my kids with enough alcohol to get them drunk.

btw - Nobody has mentioned if this party was co-ed. I'm not concerned about kids that drink but I am concerned about drunken parties. It puts alot of people at risk when nobody is in control.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 01:17 AM

"I'd be furious if I found out someone was supplying my kids with enough alcohol to get them drunk."

I'd be in jail if I found out something like that. Most likely manslaughter, but perhaps just simple assault with intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:35 AM

I hear that a Talebanesqe Louisiana town is threatening to lock people up for showing underwear above trousers.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:18 AM

I guess Superman had better stay well clear of that one then...

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 01:48 PM

Here is the ordinance involved. It's a lot broader than just saggy jeans: "It shall be unlawful for any person in any public place or in view of the public to be found in a state of nudity, or partial nudity, or in dress not becoming to his or her sex, or in any indecent exposure of his or her person or undergarments, or be guilty of any indecent or lewd behavior."

Here's the New York Times version

Should we take it that this is what the saying "Only in America" is meant to be about? Except it's not only in America this kind of thing seems to crop up, it's in places like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia as well. "... dress not becoming to his or her sex..."

Maybe The Handmaid's Tale should be read as prediction rather than as satirical fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 01:50 PM

Shit, So does that mean no more panty hose on Friday nights?

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 02:18 PM

Wesley and Greg: I guess that is fair enough. You do not expect young people in your country to drink responsibly and you think it is likely they will try to drive if they drink. I guess you know the culture, so I'll have to take your word for it. Inevitably your laws will reflect your culture.
We have our fair share of fools over here in Europe. However, we expect young people to be responsible on the whole. Certainly my nephew, who is eighteen, would not dream of drinking to impress people - let alone drive a car when he had been drinking. I am very glad that he is entrusted with full adult priveleges. He deserves them.
You frequently see a barrel of beer up at a party, where there are young people here. I have occasionally seen a couple of lads drink too much, but never all of them, or indeed even most of them. It would seem our cultures are very different.