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BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism
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Subject: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: michaelr Date: 22 Sep 02 - 06:56 PM Sorry if this overlaps with another thread thematically, but I was wondering: Now that "President" Bush has published his official blueprint for world domination, is anyone else ominously reminded of developments in Germany, c. 1930s? Michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:03 PM Hey, at least the United States isn't into appeasement. I seem to recall a good bit of that happening in the late 30's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:19 PM Michael: There were several threads in the last six months that touched onthe Facistic overtone of some of Bush's attitudes from time to time. The simiolarities are certainly unsettling, But the differences are more important, i think. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:40 PM Well, the laddie Bush I take it michaelr is compoaring Bush to wasn't exactly into appeasement either. "My patience is exhausted" was the kind of thing he used to say.
But I don't think the parallels should be stretched too far. I think the Roman Emperor analogies work better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: michaelr Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:55 PM Amos -- care to elaborate on the differences, then? Michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:29 PM I also think the Roman Empire analogy is by far the better one. As for appeasement, no heavily armed aggressor looking for new conquests has ever favoured that concept, and those arguing for peace will always be accused of it...or accused of worse...as Yamamoto was when he urged the Japanese not to enter a war with the USA. He was called "coward" and "traitor" for that. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:57 PM the obit America thread works on some level for me -- that is, our government, in the form of congressional approval, has advanced the Bush Doctrine. I theory at least, this does compromise the initial concept of our form of gov't. this, on the other hand does not work for me. I could go back an link to any number of threads in which the proponderance of posters here have repeatedly characterized Bush as a hapless, bumbling, pretzel-choking, malaproping........idiot. And now we're to believe that he suddenly turned on a dime and is the next Kahn? one or t'other folks, please. yer makin' me dizzy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Greg F. Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:12 PM Not at all - Bush is still an idiot, and a figurehead. Its his handlers making his mouth move- and they're the scary ones. Dumbya is a third-rate nonentity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:30 PM GregF: You are absolutely right. And the worst thing about it is... one was able to follow the money trail, which ain't easy...it would lead right to those memebrs to the ruling class who are the real bosses. Junior has never shown any great ability to do much of anything and folks, by the time they are his age, should have accomplishments that they can point to and say, "Hey, I did that!" He can't because he's never done a danged thing. He's had everything given to him. Everything. And left to his own devices has screwed up pretty much everything that has been given to him. He was given an oil company which went down the tubes, but not before he sucked $800,000 out of on the way down. And now he's been given tjhe White House bu his daddy's Supreme Courth justices and now he is indeed doing waht he is told.. It would be real interesting to know who is doing all the telling. We do know that Rumsfield is the go between, that's rather obvious. Yeah, you find those folks and I'll guarentee you you'll find some folks with strong fascist leanings... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:46 PM ...hey, I remember reading about this grand scheme of world domination somewhere. Now where was that?... ...Oh yeah! The John Birch Society newsletter! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:54 PM Problem was, that the John Birch Society thought that a bunch of folks with no money, no empowerment, no ties to the ruling classs, but just a hodge podge of antiwar activists and civil rights workers were going to take over the world. Yeah right! Hahahahahah! Give my poor Wes Ginny butt a break. That dog don't hunt. Might of fact. that dog died a long time ago when it became very apparent taht a bunch of hippies and Negros, ahhhh, might effect some social change, but weren't *quite* up the task of taking over the world, nor did they want to, for that matter. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Stephen L. Rich Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:03 PM The office of the President of the United States, in this day and age, is very much like a magician's left hand. The hand waves about drawing the attention of the audience while the right hand performs the trick. The primary function of ANYONE holding that office is that of a shill. He is a mere carnival barker. Keep your eyes on the fingers of the right hand -- Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, etc. These are the peoplesetting and executing policy. These are the people who wield the power. Dubya's job is draw our attention away from them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:17 PM so who was Clinton's puppetmaster? (asking almost afraid to hear the answer) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:32 PM Scholarship and communicativeness |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:38 PM I am reminded...and I am ALL for it.
Because I WILL BE on the winning side.
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:41 PM Unfortunately, John, a lot of the same folks... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:52 PM The diferenceis that one man is acting somewhat Facistic, with all the jingoism and blind adherence that often entails, but he is doing it under legal and political constraints that will not allow him to break the balance of wills imposed by the bicameral representative government and the only semi-corrupted judiciary and the unpredictable big ace of popular voice. As regards the latter, NEVER underestimate what it is capable of. Ask Yamamoto. Ask Tom Dewey. That we are presently walking around dressed as a nation of shoppers and TV heads is a tragedy of appearance, but it is not yet a tragedy of substance. Different people awake at different times, but wakening, like hypnotism, is contagious. And we are very used to thinking of ourselves as free, and capable of deciding issues. A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: The Pooka Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:24 AM Gentlemen, gentlemen. I am no Bushie. But Fascism has a fairly particular meaning. Neither Bush, nor his supposed puppetmasters (and I wouldn't be so sure about that part, fellers), nor the United States generally, fits it. Nowhere near. Today in my local newspaper a law professor declared that President Bush is the most dangerous man on earth. Tomorrow, that professor will be back teaching his classes at Yale---and receiving applause, too. This does not occur in fascist countries. Such as, just for example, Iraq. / The John Birch Society has been cited. The mortal sin of the Birchers was to classify everyone who disagreed with their paranoid views (including President Eisenhower) as Communists, or at best "fellow travellers". Now, Communism has a fairly particular meaning; and neither Eisenhower, nor most other nonBirchies, fit it. // Therefore: may we debate these important issues without calling names? Especially when the names are, well, stupid? / Thanks. (btw I'm founding an advocacy group for the restoration of wooden toilet seats. The Birch John Society.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST,Boab Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:51 AM Maybe Bush and his cohorts realise that only a "wee war" will prevent his party's minority in US government becoming a good deal more notable; he hasn't presided over a prosperous spell in his diocese, after all. And it did wonders for Maggie Thatcher------ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: paddymac Date: 23 Sep 02 - 01:27 AM So, finally, the topic tirns to music. Remember that brilliant song about the John Birch Society. I think it was recorded by the Chad Mitchell Trio. Anybody know for sure? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bullfrog Jones Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:43 AM A 'wee war' Boab? Is that like kids seeing who can piss higher up a wall? BJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST,Greg F. (remote machine) Date: 23 Sep 02 - 07:57 AM Yup- it was Chad Mitchell:
Oh we're the John Birch Society
Think I've got the rest around somewhere- I'll look
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST,Greg F. Date: 23 Sep 02 - 08:25 AM Whoops! HERE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: The Pooka Date: 23 Sep 02 - 09:42 AM Paddymac & Greg F -- HAHAHA whoopee! "And if Mommy is a Commie then ya gotta turn her in." / An even better one, sez I---also the CMTrio I *think* -- was "Barry's Boys". I loved it -- and waaaay back then in my misspent youth, I was one of 'em! (Yeah you could tell, couldn't you? I've reformed, I tell yez. / Well. Mostly. Like Catholic upbringing, some of that stuff never quite goes away...:) --Wm. F. Pookley Jr. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 23 Sep 02 - 09:53 AM "Unfortunately, John, a lot of the same folks...
Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 23 Sep 02 - 10:01 AM Talking about particular meanings: Fascism: 1. a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control In the latter sense, there are clearcut symptoms in the present Administration. Granted they have backpedaled. Don't forget that until recently they were all in favor of a unilateral war against Iraq, and it was only popular pressure that made them go through the United Nations. In my book, sending a nation into war without clear, documented and factual casus belli definitely qualifies. John -- you are on a roll these days, man! LOL! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: MAG Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:38 PM Dubya couldn't be more of a demagogue -- inflated thetoric swaying people with emotion and whipping them into a mob. What can we do but urge caution, slow down, figure out what questions to ask, and back those who do?
(Do we really want to occupy Iraq indefinitely? Keep asking. Now if you want to see a real rant, ask me about the war against Arafat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:55 PM "Dubya couldn't be more of a demagogue -- inflated thetoric swaying people with emotion and whipping them into a mob." and again I say... BUSH??.....George Bush???.......George W. Bush????... you godda be shittin' me. This is the guy who couldn't talk his way outta a open paper bag. Does "stratejery", "nucular", "dignitude" etc. sound familiar? Again, Ya just shouldn't be allowed to have it both ways -- he can't be the crowd-frenzying demagogue, while simultaneously the dictional idiot.
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: MAG Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:59 PM He is very persuasive in his pulpit. He uses his own incorrectness to poke fun at eggheads (ie, anyone who says Think!) with his "Just Folks" style. Watch him with the sound off if you don't think he's a master rhetorician. I think this is why he got the nod. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Mudlark Date: 23 Sep 02 - 01:49 PM MAG...I've watched Bush soundless and he looks like a shifty-eyed weasel. And that's BEFORE I heard what he was saying. I'm so far out of the mainstream I have no idea what sways most people, but to my eye, as well as my ear, Bush isn't it. I think he's got the nod because the U.S., so insular in it's size and might, was able to deny the growing threat of terrorism...until 9/11 tore away our defensive blindness. The reaction is to want to strike out, retaliate, obliterate the threat so we can all go back to feeling comfortable again. And that's what concerns me the most about this country, this mindless search for the easy (and self-righteous) answer...which is what Bush is giving us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: NicoleC Date: 23 Sep 02 - 01:53 PM I gotta agree... the Shrub, a demogogue? Maybe at 3:42am while he's sound asleep! I think the Shrub would like to see himself as the benevolent dictator of the all-powerful US Christian oligarchy. It hasn't happened yet, but the progress in that direction has speeded up considerably in the past couple of years. It makes all those cautionary political tales like "The Handmaid's Tale" and "Revolt in 2120" look possible in my lifetime. But most days I have faith that Americans are still, down deep, the kind of rebellious cusses that won't stand still for it. I don't think Shrub himself is dangerous, but he is a dangerous tool. Because he's perceived as not-too-bright, the Bush administration gets away with not being taken too seriously while they go about actually using the power of the Executive branch. As long as the administration is seen as basically harmless and inept, they can get away with being very, very dangerous. And any time they get caught screwing up, Shrub can get all bashful and use a bunch of made-up folkisms until you can't stand to listen to him speak another word. "We'll forgive you is you just shut up." I think you underestimate the machinations of political power in this country if you think that the President himself is that powerful. The office *could* be wielded by a person who was charismatic and used the position to exert genuine power, but the nomination process of each political party weeds out the ones who won't toe the line properly. It also, I think, weeds out the best and brightest -- the ones who might be able to think in fresh and creative ways. I have mixed feelings about this. Our system very carefully preserves the status quo -- as the system of checks and balances fails and Congress gets progressively weaker, and the judiciary appointment process becomes about political connections instead of allowing judges the freedom to make non-partisan choices -- the election process has grown more complex and has stepped in to serve as ballast. The boat will only rock so far unless it gets deliberately tipped over. And while those of us on either side of the political spectrum might disagree about the radicial/reactionary changes we might want to make... do we really want to take the risk that the OTHER side might get their leader in the big house instead? :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:06 PM His request for carte blanche discretionarty power over the biggest killing machine is unconscionable, and if congr4ess supports him in this power grab it will be the gloomiest day on the Hill since John Kennedy died. He creates the image of one who will dop anything to acquire power. As regards demagoguery, don't be fooled; his illiteracy is right on the rhetorical wavelength of a lot of people. He is willing to bend the highest sounding phrases to what seem to me to be unscrupulous ends. Nicole -- your choice of words is interesting. I think it would be nice to put Bush and his weasels into the Big House, instead of the White House. ("Big House" is a 1930's-era slang term used by convicts for the Leavenworth, KS, Federal Prison, I think). I suspect he will push this country right to the brink and a grass-roots backlash will spread to the point he can't handle it. None of this is meant to trivialize the problem of Saddam Hussein, or the other repositories of ill-will we have created over the last century. But I do not care for Bush's approach much at all. Maybe we should offer Saddam a nice beer joint in Tijuana to manage. HE would be much happier there, and we could probably arrange a new identity for him. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bobert Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:09 PM Heck, with the millions and millions of our tax bucks going to PR you'd expect something other than Junior just shoting from the hip. You can bet that everything he is doing and saying is well rehersed and certain words and phrases have been tested before a control group to determine *effect*. Does anyone really think Junior came up witgh "crawfishing" all by himself. Heck no, he didn't. The PR folk did. They recognize Junior's limitations and strengths and everything he does and says is well thought out to play to his strengths and to play down his weaknesses, which means we're gonna get President Bubba. Another reason that we're getting President Bubba is that the PR firm has also looked at the Peanut Gallery and... ahhhh, guess what? Hey, I've got three step sons who aree all college educated in live in the South. Ask me how many of them are enlightened kids. Nope, not a one. If it isn't fishing, it's NASCAR or football. They've all got big houses, big debt and work like madmen to keep it all together. They are very much like most of the folks in that Peanut Gallery for which Junior's PR folks have him playing. Seems like the PR folk have pretty much written off enlightened folks which I find distastefull. Guess, they figure that since there's really no logical reason to attack Iraq, there's no point in trying to sell it to folks whose lives are defined somewhat beyound the #3 Car or bass fishing. Hey, nothing against that stuff but in the big scheme of things, like war, that stuff seems pretty superficial. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Don Firth Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:14 PM The following is a brief excerpt from The Rise and Fall of The Third Reich by William L. Schirer:— . . . an underground passage, built to carry the central heating system, ran to the Reichstag building. Through this tunnel Karl Ernst, a former hotel bellhop who had become the Berlin S.A. leader, led a small detachment of storm troopers on the night of February 27 to the Reichstag, where they scattered gasoline and self-igniting chemicals and then made their way quickly back to the palace the way they had come. . . .Later on, Goering proudly admitted that it was not the Bolsheviks who had torched the Reichstag; he had arranged it to frighten the populace into thinking there were dire threats, both internal and external, and that the National Socialist Party was the only entity that had enough backbone to keep them safe. Now, I'm not suggesting for an instant that George W. Bush is, in any way, comparable to Adolf Hitler. Or, for that matter, Julius Caesar. But—he and his policies are certainly doing a good job of paving the way for someone who might be. Chilly winds are blowing from the past. Draw your own conclusions, folks. Don Firth
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:20 PM you guys gotta get some time away from the internet! ...now off to your rooms all o' you! I'll call you when dinner's ready. Christians are a political non-entity in USA... ...okay, they serve one function -- they are a voting block that some polititians can easily dupe into voting (as Bush did) -- but time and time again they are merely thwarted as soon as (if) their candidate does win. For instance, issue #1 for fundies has been (for 30yrs now) anti-abortion. The first step in that direction has yet to take place, and it never will. And they don't vote very efficiently as a block -- you want wholesale blind followership, look at Black America. 95%+ democrat voting block. If you read as many Christian Kookburger publications as you do Anti-christian kookburger publications, you'd see that Christians -- the "fundamentalist" type you fear so -- constantly write about their abandonment by the likes of Bush. Bush does not empower them, nor do they him. The Christian rags I read are pretty damn conflicted over whether or not we should endorse the "Bush Doctrine". Of course you can find quotes from fundies whom you think make your point but I'll guaran-dam-tee you I can find quotes from Christians who would adamantly disagree. Your charicature of Christianity in 21st century America has little basis in reality. We really don't all have that "extra chromosome". Some of us are even pretty cool....play some pretty mean guitar....like sports, love our kids, eat barbeque, laugh alot. You know.....we're... ...human |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: M.Ted Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM Was the WTC Bush's Reichstag? He seems to remind many Germans of "You Know Who", and, since they've been there and done that, they are not interested in going again--(note today's election results)-- If you think that mention of the Nazis is out of place, remember that Prescott Bush and Herbert Walker made substantial fortunes by financing Hitler's massive industrialization--the money kept flowing in even after the Luftwaffe started its "European Tour"--
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:45 PM Now, John. Chill, man. Some of my best friends are Christians!! They are among the most decent, intelligent people I know! 'Course some of the least decent and intelligent people I know like to use the same darned label, so it does get confusing sometimes. But the real thing (as I interpret it) has never been a problem. It's the PACs that worry me, not the individuals. As with all organized religion, individual faith and conscience are never the problem; it is the use of memberships to support various real-world agendae that are outside the scope of faith, hope and charity. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 23 Sep 02 - 03:00 PM yeah Amos, but those PACs are no more effective than any other voting/funding block. In fact, I say they are among the most duped/least influential where policy is concerned. WHERE?!!!......Black helicopters??!! man.....I didn't even see 'em |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Don Firth Date: 23 Sep 02 - 03:03 PM I'm not real sure about Christians being political non-entities. Not all Christians believe the same thing, especially politically. And not all Christians are fundies. Fundies are just louder. When the Gulf War started, there was a march in Seattle, from St. James Cathedral (Catholic) in downtown Seattle to St. Mark's Cathedral (Episcopalian) on Capitol Hill. All denominations, Christian and otherwise, joined in. Thirty thousand people (that's right—30,000 by police estimate) carrying candles and marching silently and peacefully is pretty damned impressive. Some claimed there were "only" 15,000 people. But still—15,000 people! Similar marches were held all over the country, but as far as I could tell, none of it was carried in the national news. George H. W. Bush was not re-elected in 1992. This past weekend, there was a national meeting of the Lutheran Peace Fellowship in Seattle. One of the delegates—from Texas— stayed at our apartment. There are gatherings of similar faith-based peace groups going on all over the country. Massive marches are likely to happen again, this time even moreso. Now, silent marches may not seem to do much directly, and since they are peaceful (unlike the WTO protests, no one smashes windows or sets fires), the press tends to ignore them. But they express what many people are thinking and feeling. And these people vote. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:40 AM M.Ted: Was the WTC Bush's Reichstag? He seems to remind many Germans of "You Know Who", and, since they've been there and done that, they are not interested in going again--(note today's election results)-- I disagree with a part of these thoughts: In Germany, the position not to follow the USA in every respect unconditionally is very popular and has contributed to the election result. However, a direct comparison of Bush or even a tiny part of his policy with Hitler('s policy) is seen as a 'guilt by association' rhetorical trick and is very unpopular. Herta Däubler-Gmelin (still minister of justice for a few days, but she won't be in the new cabinet) who has made the comparison (she denies it, but nobody believes her) has lost a virtually unloosable constituency. Serves her well. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Teribus Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:11 AM A couple of people up above referred to a "wee war", and others above have quoted from history
Here's one from the Duke of Wellington: "There is no such thing as a wee war for a great nation."
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:28 AM Comparing anyone to Hitler is generally an intellectually lazy and opportunistic cheap shot. It's kind of like ascribing every event you don't like to the power of Satan. Lazy thinking...but it's guaranteed to strike visceral emotions in certain people, and that is usually the intent of the speaker when they raise the name "Hitler". They are actually trying to do pretty much the same thing Hitler tried to do in his speeches to the German people when he raised the twin spectres of "Jews and Communists"...scare people, and inflame their emotions, thus getting them to back him in some ill-considered and reckless action. Be wary of such rhetoric. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:44 AM (Amos quote) "Talking about particular meanings: Fascism: 1. a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition" Hey Amos , has it occurred to you, and all of the others joining in this "Amercia's gone facist "fantasy of pure Bush-wah, that *Iraq* fits this clinical definition with more considerbly more fidelity? In my book Beijing, China has fit this in spadesfor decades. I'm hardly Bush apologist as my posts can attest ,but for cryin' out loud, these alusions to fascism are really rather *irresponsible* and do more harm than good towards *genuine* informed opposition to this political appetite for War. I'd wager Isreal's Areil Sharon and un-elected right-wing war-monger at-large BeBe Netanyahu are more than thick with kibtzing this fomenting momentum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:57 AM I don't think, under the second definition, that what I have said is irresponsible. What I said was that sending a nation into war without a clear casus belli qualifies. Demanding unbounded power over military might unparalleled in history qualifies. Setting aside civil rights, discussing internment camps and National Identification systems qualify as symptoms. These points are not fantasy. They come from the Bush apparatus. You are certainly right that there are others far worse in the world. So the fuck what? I would submit that remembering what Facism was and how it came about in Western experience (the rise of Il Duce and Chancellor Shicklgruber) are not exactly ungenuine or ill-informed. I don't understand your last sentence. What does "..more than thick with kibitzing this fomenting momentum" mean? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:55 AM Let's also be clear that Saddam's Ba'ath party is about as ultimately Fascistic, dictatorial and ham-fisted as any group of power-hungry eejits ever was. We're talking about offenses against decency of a deep order -- the execution of co-revolutionaries, the suppression of any dissent, the mother of all Big Brother operations. Blair's white paper on the history and current capabilities of Iraq is of greast interest. It can be downloaded from this site. It is in PDF format. I recommend it to all concerned in the ongoing debate. Just to keep all the cards on the table here, eh? A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: wilco Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:00 PM Hyperbole is not to be taken seriously. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM First allow me to say that I wasn't targeting you specifically in this thread ranging from the looking for "symptoms of fascism" to those just dropping all pretense of thoughtful understanding and just flat out calling America a fascistic empire. Need some be reminded that there would be *no* tolerance for ,let alone broadcast forums, of equally critical debate in a true fascist state as exists elsewhere in the world as we speak. Blurring the meanings for the sake of giving in to getting one's personal *ideological* rocks off serves nothing constructive. ( Not you,Amos. Just the "America: Always Wrong" Amen Choir ) That said: (quote) "I don't understand your last sentence. What does "..more than thick with kibitzing this fomenting momentum" mean? Isreal is already practicing a kind of flirting with a "final solution" in response to Palestinian acts of terrorism that is openly being rewarded with hard cash from Saddam's treasury. The far right wing Likud party in control of Isreal is not exactly a "shrinking violet" when it comes to pushing the envalope of the biblical exacting an "Eye for an eye" to a Gen.William Tecumseh Sherman degree and proven to be willing to back it up in spades. Just as good ol' Lady Maggie Thatcher is historically credited as infusing some steel in G.Bush,Sr's spine on going after Saddam after he had already crossed over into Kuwait , the very influential Pro-Isreali Lobby has been expertly massaged , even incited, by the rhetoric of likes of Ariel Sharon and BB Netanyahuand their fellow-travelers. I immediately found this level of oppurtunistic political fomenting really rather disgusting to watch . Netanyahu appeared on our airwaves , and still does now ,regularly using the 9/11 attack as the oppurtunity to " See what we have to live with. Now you understand terror and you can do something about it". This seizing upon an oppurtunity to goad us into taking swift and decisive military action and then finish the job continues as you see debated now.. The term "kibitzing" is a particularly New York yiddish idiom meaning to artfully influence , incite and/or direct behind the scenes or while someone looking over their shoulder as in a card game . Euros are more acquainted with this passtime en masse' as spectators at any soccer match where the term "hooliganism" gained new currency. A more Amercian colloquialism would be "backseat driver" or "armchair warrior". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: M.Ted Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:30 PM All I know is that brown shirts are unaccountably popular--check the racks at Target if you don"t believe me-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:21 PM I know what kibbitzing is, T. I grew up in New Yawk! The grammar was obscure. Be that as it may, if poeple taking advantage of dynamic situations to forward their agendae upsets you, stay out of politics, is all I can suggest; it is inherent in the dynamics of individuals and groups to seek their own best futures, whether they have thought them through well or not! :>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Don Firth Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:27 PM Little Hawk, I don't think anyone is trying to say that "Bush and Hitler are moral equivalents." Reread:— Restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press; on the rights of assembly and association; and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications; and warrants for house searchers, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed. Now read some of the stipulations of the Patriot Act:—
1. It gives carte blanche to the Executive Branch of government to act. It sets aside the Judiciary and Legislative Branches and is no longer answerable to them. No more "checks and balances." Two things that I've heard have happened so far are:—
1. Bookstores and libraries have already received subpoenas asking for the purchase or lending records of their patrons. Whether this is sort of restriction of the rights of citizens is imposed by Adolf Hitler in Germany in 1933 or by the Patriot Act in the United States in 2001, it sets a country up for take-over by a dictator. Whether it's done by a slavering madman or an honest and sincere group of nervous patriots, the end results are very unlikely to be anything but disastrous. Restricting the rights of citizens because of "matters of national security" has been the overture of just about every oppressive regime that ever existed. Sense of history, folks; sense of history. Let's just hope we don't all meet in up the concentration camp. . . . Don Firth
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