Origins: The Foggy Dew [East Anglian Version]

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 03:43 PM

It would probably be illuminating to compare the 17thc version with the Goggin text and then with the earliest TFD text but I'm a bit snowed under with projects at the moment.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 03:52 PM

But even if that the case, Steve ~~ the phrase must have come from somewhere, had some meaning or referent for someone... And why should the [sort-of] mondegreen you postulate here have so universally caught on that this song under this title is as recognisable in some version, or at least as a title, to practically everyone, as those I cited some posts back, 12 oct 0517 pm: to which one might add e.g. Waltzing Matilda, Vicar of Bray, John Peel ... Oh, you know what I mean.

I agree with what I take to be your point that the evidential value of the Irish rebel versions under the title is scant, as they were clearly just recycling a phrase which had reached cliche status because of the older song.

~M~

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 06:01 PM

Michael, why can't you just accept that in the late 18thc the phrase 'foggy dew' was used to describe the dew that lies on the grass during foggy conditions and thereafter, as Dick simply states?
It may somewhere along the line have had some other significance but without any direct proof there's not a lot of point in prolonging the agony.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 12:13 AM

Because, Steve, I know of no other uses of the phrase, C18 or other. And I don't believe you or Dick do either.

Many many refs in verse, and lit in general, to dew, C18 and before & after, up to Sidney Carter's "The youth of the heart and the dew in the morning"; a commonplace image for ephemerality. Probably fewer, but certainly some to fog - notably Bleak House in C19. But, as the common combo which you seem to be urging, can think of none but this one under question.

Can you?

Till you cite me one, I see no reason for the disputative, contentious [and perhaps a bit patronising] tone of your "why can't you just..."

I can't because the phrase just was not so used with the regularity implied by the tone of exasperation evident in your question.

~M~

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 08:55 AM

Michael,
I've found 4 more songs that use the phrase in the title. Possibly/likely others that use the phrase somewhere. If you are so desperate to find hidden meanings then you must search further yourself.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 09:09 AM

I always assumed semen.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 11:44 AM

Can you be more specific as to your 4 songs, Steve? Variants or entirely different songs?

But, even then, you have been claiming the phrase as a commonplace of C18 usage to explain how it infiltrated the song in place of misunderstandings of Bugaboo. It is the existence of the phrase in this sort of common usage which I dispute. You have not produced a single example of it used, except as a title and part of the eponymous text of some songs. Put up or...

And will you take on board that finding hidden meanings is not something I do: I hate the idea. All I did was direct people to some suggestions by someone else which I thought those interested in the history of this partic song should like to know about --

PLEASE SEE MY REPLY TO MIKE Y 14 Oct 0416 am

~M~

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 08:32 PM

Peter Kennedy includes the song, under the title "The Foggy Foggy Dew", in his _Folksongs of Britain and Ireland_ (Oak, 1975). The version he gives (he lists a lot of others) resembles the one quoted above from Martin Carthy, Cyprus cat & all. (I presume, however, that the "cod" offered was actually a cot; Kennedy has "crib".)

In the introduction to the chapter containing the song, Kennedy says:
"James Reeves, in trying to discover the significance of the title, suggests 'fogge', the 'Middle English for coarse, rank grass of the kind which grows in marshes and bogs where the atmosphere would be damp and misty', and this, as in _Rolling in the Dws_..., would represent maidenhead, and the dew would imply virginity or chastity. 'Foggy Dew' may be an English tongue's best attempt at the sound of the Gaelic, and derive from 'Oroce dhu' meaning a black or dark night. Robert Graves proposed a theory that it stood for the black pestilence of the church and that the girl was really being protected from entering a nunnery. There seems to be no end to what can be interpreted from the lines of folksongs."
For this last statement there seems to be plenty of evidence.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 09:34 AM

I saw very clearly your reply to Mike.

5 entirely different songs. See my posting of 14th Oct 3.36 pm.

You're the one pushing hidden meaning. I'm happy with literal. I haven't said anything about it being a phrase in common usage other than in the 5 songs I mentioned, but if it can be found in 5 independent titles it is quite possible that it will occur elsewhere as well, but I'm not sufficiently interested to go hunting for it.

Happy hunting!

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 11:25 AM

"I haven't said anything about it being a phrase in common usage

So what's this then?

Michael, why can't you just accept that in the late 18thc the phrase 'foggy dew' was used to describe the dew that lies on the grass during foggy conditions

A phrase claimed to have been used at a particular, specified time ('late 18thc') surely carries the implication of its having been in common use at that time. How else is one to interpret your "why can't just accept" question above?

~M~

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 11:52 AM

And I am NOT 'pushing hidden meaning'. I merely referred once to a work in which one such was suggested by someone else, written some years ago so perhaps unknown to the next generation ~~ piece of info that I thought might be of interest to some reading this thread who had not come across it before. That's what Mudcat threads are FOR, isn't it?

Why this had made me such an object of obloquy & attack and INACCURATE denunciation from Mike Y ("why, oh why", "spouting", "rubbish") & Steve G ("desperate", "pushing hidden meaning"), I am utterly at a loss to say.

But I will say that I regard it as spiteful and derogatory and unnecessary, and should be much obliged if you would desist. It is distressing me, I do not mind telling you ~~ and I do not normally suffer from a paranoid personality.

"Pushing hidden meaning" up your drivelly rectum, Gardham. Which, as regulars on Mudcat should recognise, is a far-out extreme of abuse for me, who generally avoid such locutions altogether, as unworthy & counterproductive.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 11:57 AM

...and unmannerly. I cool down, and apologise unreservedly for such an outburst; to Steve and everybody.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 06:09 PM

Michael,
I apologise also for contributing to your outburst.

My comment doesn't imply at all that the phrase was in common usage, just that it was being used more than once in several song titles for whatever reason.

If you're not pushing hidden meanings then why are we arguing?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 11:24 PM

Good morning, Steve.

Mainly because of your constant accusations that I was continually pursuing hidden meanings, a practice I kept reiterating that I dislike generally, when all I had done was cite one other person's opinion on them just once. So, now you appear to have apologised for having done so, let's stop arguing, shall we?

~M~

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 04:35 AM

Absolutely. There are few enough of us around to start falling out over nothing. Best wishes.    Steve

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 01:51 PM

For info -- I have started a new thread, referring back to this one, about the rare occasions when I think it might be appropriate to suggest "hidden meanings". It is called Hunting Hidden Meanings.

~M~

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 01:31 PM

i like singing the song

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 01:36 PM

So do I, Dick. It's a good song whatever interpretation you want to put on it.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 04:28 AM

the version I sing was collected possibly by Peter Kennedy and it was collected from a singer who had been in the army my recollection may not be that accurate but i have a feeling the singer was a captain or a major.I would be grateful for any info as i am away gigging at the moment and do not have access to my notes on the version

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 10:55 AM

Major Philip Hammond source. collected by Peter Kennedy

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 04:05 PM

Hammond's version is problematic, because it's the only field-collected text, AFAIK, with nine stanzas. And, in the opinion of many, the "new" stanzas actually weaken the effect of the story.


Noteworthy: The Roud Index lists only a dozen texts of this song.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 04:13 PM

The otherwise unremarkable version collected from Tom Kelley, of Hazard, Ky., by Josiah Combs around 1915 has "I am a jolly boatsman" in place of "bachelor" and, for "foggy dew," the "bugaboo."

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 05:21 PM

Do I recall aright that the singer from whom Peter Kennedy collected a version had forgotten the Banks and Braes tune and used the one he knew from a Burl Ives record?

I am not sure that this thread ever produced a convincing explanation of quite why someone chose the phrase "foggy dew" to replace "bugaboo" (or similar) or exactly what it meant. Michael G-M had a point about "dewy fog". If "foggy dew" wasn't symbolic, what did it mean and why would the girl have been so keen to be protected from it? Did she just wish to be kept warm and out of the damp? That shouldn't have been a problem "in the summer time" when the man first courted her.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 09:08 PM

True, but he courted her "part of the winter too."

As I posted last year to
/mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=94598#4098134

Randolph's "Ozark Folksongs" has a perfect transitional form, from "bugaboo" to "foggy, foggy dew," collected in Missouri in 1938:

"I wooed her in the summer time
And part of the winter too.
Tumble into bed, pretty maid, I said,
And I'll keep you from the Boogy Boogy Boo."

As I mentioned on another thread, "foggy dew" was defined literally in 1616, without regard to the song (which didn't yet exist), as "rime" -
a winter phenomenon.

Just what prompted the change is uncertain. But, in any case, the idea that the "foggy, foggy dew" cloaks some deep symbolic meaning is based on nothing. None of the collectors, and apparently none of the singers, ever suggested such a thing.

Since the original "Bogul maru" is quite literally a (fake) ghost, and since "foggy dew" is most easily understood as some kind of nocturnal meteorological dampness, there seems to be no room for arcane "symbolism."

Any presumed sexual meaning is unnecessary anyhow, since the maid's sexual intent is perfectly obvious - with the "dew" (or the "bugaboo" in other cases) being a mere excuse. (Her forwardness is the "fault" that the singer will never accuse her of.)

I believe Robert Graves was the first person to suggest that it did, and his argument that the maid was really fleeing the Black Death of the 14th century, is unconvincing, not to mention ludicrous.

The only "evidence" that "foggy dew" symbolizes something mysterious is that some people want it to. And for them, it can.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: GUEST,DickMiles
Date: 26 Sep 25 - 08:52 AM

The version I sing is convinvcng imo, she dies in childbirth, but the son survives it appears Carthy sang this version too.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version]
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 26 Sep 25 - 01:49 PM

I don’t quite recall where the actual lyrics I use came from (my mother had an old 78 of songs that a version was on and I recall hearing it as a child, but I sing a different version.)

In the version I sing, no children were manufactured in the song, but not for want of trying. She married someone else and they kept their little secret.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew [East Anglian Version]
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 27 Sep 25 - 04:01 PM

GUEST 25 Sep 25 - 05:21 PM was me. Cookie now reset.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew [East Anglian Version]
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Sep 25 - 04:39 PM

Just to throw more damp air and possible symbolism into the mix. No-one has mentioned the carol As Dew in April.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew [East Anglian Version]
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 25 - 04:10 AM

Interesting challenge, Mo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_syng_of_a_mayden

I Sing of a Maiden that Is Makeless (Matchless, Mateless): http://balladindex.org/Ballads/MSISOAMa.html

https://mainlynorfolk.info/shirley.collins/songs/isingofamaidenthatismakeless.html

https://stmargaretsprestwich.com/2023/04/11/as-dew-in-aprille-benjamin-britten-1913-1976/

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew [East Anglian Version]
From: Reinhard
Date: 28 Sep 25 - 04:33 AM

Shirley Collins sang I Sing of a Maiden That Is Makeless on her 1974 album Adieu to Old England, and with The Young Tradition on their album The Holly Bears the Crown.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew [East Anglian Version]
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Sep 25 - 06:55 PM

Having been brought up in Suffolk, I bought an EP record of Bob Roberts’ singing in the 1960s, which included “the Suffolk version of the Foggy Dew”. It had only 4 x 4-line verses, so maybe cuts a longer story short: I was told when I sang it once , “Oh, that’s the cleaned-up version”!
The tune is totally unlike the other one I knew of: it bears some passing resemblance to “Ye Banks and Braes” but is definitely not the same. I’ll post the words if anyone’s interested. Has to be sung in a broad Suffolk accent.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew [East Anglian Version]
From: Reinhard
Date: 30 Sep 25 - 08:27 PM

The tune is not that unusual, see the comments at the start of this thread. Also, Peter Kennedy wrote in the sleeve notes of one of Harry Cox's albums:

"Harry Cox’s tune is the same one that Robert Burns used for his Ye Banks and Braes of Bonny Doon. Possibly Burns appropriated his tune from a Border version of The Foggy Dew. Frank Kidson in 1891, heard a Yorkshire miner using it for The Foggy Dew and Cecil Sharp also found it to be commonly used for Somerset versions."

Yes, I'd like to see Bob Roberts' lyrics. I just listened to his recording and can't decipher some of his broad Suffolk words.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew [East Anglian Version]
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 25 - 02:49 AM

different lyric versions, and differing tunes are what makes songs interesting

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew [East Anglian Version]
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Oct 25 - 12:24 PM

The poet Carl Sandburg popularized the song in the 1920s. He sings it here. One of the few performances of this insipid tune that I can stand to listen to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R72AqEOV8bc

An unusual version from North Carolina:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXl0MlVtjw8

An Irish tune of the 1850s, rather like the "Foggy Dew" rebel song:

https://www.itma.ie/texts/joyce-oifms/

Subject: RE: Origins: The Foggy Dew [East Anglian Version]
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 07:25 PM

Here is what Bob Roberts sings: in this case “roving” means “weaving”.
There are a lot of dropped h’s! Any i sounds are pronounced oi. And “dew” becomes “doo”..
Summertime becomes summertoiyum! Died = doid.
And “hold yer row” just means be quiet.

THE FOGGY DEW -SUFFOLK VERSION

When I were young and in me prime, I worked at the rovin’ trade,
And the only thing I ever done wrong was I courted a Suffolk maid,
I courted ‘er in summertime, and in the winter too,
And all to be said is I ‘id up ‘er ‘ead, away from the foggy dew.

Last night she came to my bedside, when I lay fast asleep,
She laid ‘er ‘ead upon my breast and she began to weep,
She wep’, she sighed, she damn near died, oh Lord what could I do?
So I ‘auled ‘er abed and I ‘id up ‘er ‘ead, away from the foggy dew.

All of the first part of the night, we two did sport and play,
And all the second part of the night, she in my arms did lay,
When morning came, she says to me, “oh sire, I am undone”,
“Oh ‘old yer row, you silly young gal, the foggy dew is gone”.

Now I am old and past me prime, and still at the roving trade,
And every time my son passes by, I think of that Suffolk maid,
I think of ‘er in summertime, and in the winter too,
And all of ‘er charms as she laid in me arms, away from the foggy dew.