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Which Genre is it? (House of the Rising Sun)

DigiTrad:
HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN


Related threads:
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(origins) Origins: Devil's in the house of the rising sun ? (27)
(origins) Origin or title of House of the Rising Sun? (184)
Lyr Req: House of the Rising sun (24)
(origins) Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording? (56)
Lyr Req: Rising Sun (Leadbelly) (26)
(origins) Origins: House of the Rising Sun - Unf. Rake? (3)
House of the rising sun on Stan Carew-cb (6)
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Fred Hellerman's 'Rising Sun'. Wow! (5)


pavane 28 Jun 04 - 02:56 PM
greg stephens 28 Jun 04 - 02:58 PM
Leadfingers 28 Jun 04 - 03:11 PM
Rasener 28 Jun 04 - 03:14 PM
GUEST 28 Jun 04 - 03:15 PM
pavane 28 Jun 04 - 03:17 PM
Clinton Hammond 28 Jun 04 - 03:18 PM
pavane 28 Jun 04 - 03:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jun 04 - 04:39 PM
Ed. 28 Jun 04 - 04:48 PM
greg stephens 28 Jun 04 - 04:49 PM
Irish sergeant 28 Jun 04 - 04:50 PM
GUEST, Mikefule 28 Jun 04 - 05:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jun 04 - 06:19 PM
greg stephens 28 Jun 04 - 06:33 PM
Big Mick 28 Jun 04 - 09:22 PM
Rasener 29 Jun 04 - 01:21 AM
Rasener 29 Jun 04 - 01:30 AM
pavane 29 Jun 04 - 01:34 AM
Backstage Manager(inactive) 29 Jun 04 - 07:58 AM
Rasener 29 Jun 04 - 08:29 AM
Big Mick 29 Jun 04 - 08:33 AM
greg stephens 29 Jun 04 - 08:40 AM
Backstage Manager(inactive) 29 Jun 04 - 08:42 AM
Rasener 29 Jun 04 - 09:02 AM
Big Mick 29 Jun 04 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,Sooz (at work) 29 Jun 04 - 10:26 AM
pavane 29 Jun 04 - 12:51 PM
pavane 29 Jun 04 - 12:52 PM
The Borchester Echo 29 Jun 04 - 01:08 PM
pavane 29 Jun 04 - 01:19 PM
Ed. 29 Jun 04 - 01:28 PM
pavane 29 Jun 04 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,guest mick 29 Jun 04 - 02:49 PM
M.Ted 30 Jun 04 - 07:07 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Jun 04 - 07:59 PM
Backstage Manager(inactive) 30 Jun 04 - 08:40 PM
The Fooles Troupe 01 Jul 04 - 03:29 AM
Rasener 01 Jul 04 - 04:17 AM
GUEST,guest mick 01 Jul 04 - 12:44 PM
M.Ted 01 Jul 04 - 01:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jul 04 - 01:26 PM
Rasener 01 Jul 04 - 01:41 PM
woodsie 01 Jul 04 - 09:18 PM
The Fooles Troupe 01 Jul 04 - 09:32 PM
GUEST,Big Mick in Colorado Springs 02 Jul 04 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,karltom@mailcity.com 04 Jul 04 - 11:40 PM
PennyBlack 05 Jul 04 - 09:18 PM
GUEST,woodsie 06 Jul 04 - 12:09 AM
pavane 06 Jul 04 - 03:59 AM
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Subject: Which Genre is it?
From: pavane
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:56 PM

Is House of the Rising Sun regarded as Folk or Blues (or both)?


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:58 PM

Bluesy folk?


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:11 PM

Folky Blues


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:14 PM

Bluesy Pop


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:15 PM

It's an English song I think, and blues didn't originate there. Gotta go with folk.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: pavane
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:17 PM

ENGLISH??????
Is there a New Orleans in England?


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:18 PM

What does it matter?

It's just a song...


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: pavane
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:34 PM

The web site where Mrs Pavane's version is available asks for Genre.
But I think from the Origins thread here, it is Blues, in fact an early version was called Rising Sun Blues!

Earliest actual reference seems to be a recording in 1928.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 04:39 PM

Blues are folk. (But this song hasn't got a blues structure.)


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Ed.
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 04:48 PM

What Clinton said.

It's a song...

If you have a need to classify it, put it in the 'good songs' file...


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 04:49 PM

Derived from English folksong undoubtedly, but well naturalised in New Orleans (like St James Inirmary and Didnt He Ramble). Since blues is a subset of folk, it couldnt be blues without being folk. The question is,then, is it blues? McGrath correctly points out that it it hasnt got a blues structure, so you cant say "it is a blues". But it could be blues, or a blues song. St james Infirmary, to look at a very similar song in background and style, is often titled "St James Infirmary Blues", and I think most people would happily classify that under blues as well as folk. And when these songs were being formed into the music we know, the blues hadnt fully crystallised into the 12-bqqar form. Songs like Rising Sun, St james Infirmary, and Frankie and Johnny were rubbing shoulders with each other in the late 1800's, and it is a bit arbritary to separate them into different categories, because of later structural developments. So, personally, I'd say folk, and blues.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 04:50 PM

I always thought it was blues but I agree with Clinton. Neil


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:19 PM

I don't think they had genres in those days. Just songs that they liked, and songs that they didn't.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 06:19 PM

Folk an' good song anyway.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 06:33 PM

I think, Mikefule. that's it's not necessarily true that folk musicians can't classify. I tended to agree with you till recently, but a lot of discussions I've had recently with ASian and African musicians, as well as my experience with some traditional English musicians, have suggested to me that people are actually quite prepared to make distinctions between the various kinds of music they know. Particularly between what we might term "folk" and "pop" music.
   They probably didnt have the same genres for music in 1880 New Orleans as we do now in 2004, but I wouldnt be surprised if the musicians then didnt do a little classification... JellyRoll Morton certainly did in 1920, anyway!


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 09:22 PM

The earliest version I am aware of (and that doesn't mean its the earliest version) comes from the Robert Johnson era. It is absolutely a blues song, but references to what constitutes blues are as varied as what constitutes folk. The Blues are not monolithic. If someone is trying to tell me this derives from an English song, they will have to give me some cites. I don't have any problem with the fact that it would come from England, but I am very dubious that this one did. This could be a very interesting thread.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:21 AM

Is this the same song that Eric Burden and the Animals had a big hit with in the 60's?


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:30 AM

Thought you might like to have a look at this website about the song.
Lyrics are on there too. Looks like it is classified as blues.

http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/3448/house.html


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: pavane
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:34 AM

Yes. the same song. There is a thread somewhere here on the origins.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 07:58 AM

"House of the Rising Sun" aka "Rising Sun Blues," is a traditional folk song that has been filtered through the folk process.

As Alan Lomax, and others would point out, traditional blues are a form of folk music. Was Lead Belly, who recorded "House of the Rising Sun" several times, a folk singer or a blues singer? The answer is yes. But not all blues is folk music. When Ornette Coleman played an original composition in an avante-garde jazz setting using a 12-bar setting, he could, rightly, call it a blues, or jazz. But it wasn't folk music by any stretch. And when Louis Armstrong played "St. James Infirmary," it could, rightly, be called jazz, blues, or folk music.

Too many people confuse the terms "folk" and "blues" with the style categories of the music industry, i.e. "folk" = acoustic guitars, "blues" = 12 bar repetitive patterns. It's not that simple.

When categorizing music, the connections of traditionas, styles and processes have to be understood.

The Animals were a rock band who used a blues base to much of their music. Their version of "House of the Rising Sun" was based on Bob Dylan's. Bob Dylan's was based on Dave Van Ronk's. Dave Van Ronk, was a friend of mine and he told me he based his version on elements in Josh White's. Josh White was part of a circle that included Lead Belly and Woody Guthrie. The other two may well have learned it from one or the other.

The earliest recording of "House of the Rising Sun" was as "Rising Sun Blues," by Clarence "Tom" Ashley in 1932. Ashley was a Southern, white Appalachian artist. Whether Ashley got the song from a white, or black, source, I don't know.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 08:29 AM

In the United States, The Rising Sun, a song with roots in 17th century British folk melody -- the rising sun has been a longtime symbol for brothels in British and American ballads -- circulated widely among Southern musicians, black and white. Black bluesman Texas Alexander first recorded it in 1928. [Roy] Acuff [who commercially recorded the song on Nov 3, 1938] may have learned this number from such neighboring Smoky Mountain artists as versatile entertainer Clarence Tom Ashley or the Callahan Brothers, an influential duet team of the '30s and '40s.
John R. Rumble, Liner Notes, Country & Western Classics: Roy Acuff, Time-Life Records, 1983, p. 19


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 08:33 AM

Yeah, Villan, that may be the root of the name "Rising Sun" to indicate a brothel, but the song is pure American.

Thanks to Mike and Villan for providing the info I was trying to recall. Great stuff.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 08:40 AM

Big Mick : I cant do clickies and so I cant show you music scores, lists of words, or play you audio clips.'   I was not suggesting, as I am sure nobody else is, that there is or was an old traditional English folksong that goes
"There is a house in New Orleans
They call the Rising Sun". Of course there isnt, that version is as American as St James Infirmary, and the New orleans funeral march "Didnt he ramble". All I was aying was elemts of the roots of these songs(melodically, lyrically and functionally) can be found in English folksong(and of course in irish folksong also). No doubt other elements in the song can be found in African, French etc etc folk-music....the eastern seaboard of the USA was a fantastic melting pot for music. I can spot the British Isles roots, that's what I know about. others can spot the others,
   Of course this song is American. So was George Washington. But he came from an English family.,


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 08:42 AM

Learn something every day. I was not aware of the Texas Alexander recording. I just checked Document Records and they do list a song called "Risin' Sun" on a Texas Alexander reissue. Unfortunately, there was no sample for comparison. Brownie McGhee used to do a song called "Rising Sun" which bore no relationship to "House of the Rising Sun.

If the Alexander recording is, in fact, "House of the Rising Sun," it could well be where Ashley got it from.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 09:02 AM

The plot thickens :-)


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 09:07 AM

I getcha, greg. I wasn't being difficult, and I hope you didn't take it that way. It just seems to me that the song has much more of an African root, with touches of various American influences. It can be said that those influences come from several European cultures, to be sure. But I don't see it anyway related, as I do with many Irish songs, for example, whose roots lie in English folk, and vice versa.

As I said, this is an interesting thread.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: GUEST,Sooz (at work)
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 10:26 AM

Depends who is singing it.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: pavane
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 12:51 PM

Despite all the interest, no-one seems to be listening to it! All the other tracks we uploaded to motagator are getting played, but not this one!

I wonder why.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: pavane
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 12:52 PM

(See "Mrs Pavane sings online" thread for the blicky)


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:08 PM

I've listened to it. Mrs P has a fine natural vibrato and the Hammond player is a rival to Alan Price.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: pavane
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:19 PM

I though the backing track was rather poor, myself. Lacking in the excitement that the Animals generated. But it was the best we could get. And it WAS a MIDI file, played through my ROLAND SD35 Sound Canvas player.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Ed.
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:28 PM

pavane,

I've not listened because I get a "Cannot open. Please verify that the path and filename are correct and try again." message when I try.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: pavane
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 02:48 PM

Presumably a browser or site problem.
As it is not my site, I don't have any control.

Try this:

Go to www.motagator.co.uk
Click on artist/band list
click on Dawne Oakley
Click on Music

This should take you to the correct page


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: GUEST,guest mick
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 02:49 PM

For me the song belongs in the rare category of the Blues Waltz - along with Sgreamin' Jay Hawkins' I'll Put a Spell on You.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 07:07 PM

Say what? Blues waltz? I don't think so--count em out and you'll see that there are four beats to the measure--each of those is a triplet, but each beat in all jazz/blues is a triplet--


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 07:59 PM

This Rising Sun business has been going 'round and 'round for some time, everything gone over before; the main thread is 8592: Origin Rising Sun

Some words from Texas Alexander, 1928 (in "Screening the Blues," Paul Oliver:

Rising Sun Blues
My woman got somethin' like the rising sun,
You cain't never tell when that work is done.

It's no use a-worrying 'bout your days being long
Never worry about your rollin' 'cause they sure is goin' on.

She got somethin' round an' it looks just like a bear
Sometimes I wonder what in the hell is there.

How come we don't have the full set of words in the DT??
(Texas, maybe some genre got shoved up in her 'bear').

Somehow I have trouble tying this song to "House of the Risin' Sun" and Ashley's "Rising Sun Blues" which was posted by Stewie in thread 8592 (linked above).


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 08:40 PM

If those are the words to Texas Alexander's "Risin' Sun," then it's not the same song and I'll return to my earlier contention that the first recording of "House of the Rising Sun" is "Rising Sun Blues," by Clarence "Tom" Ashley from 1932.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 03:29 AM

I came across an old version which was similar to the 60's rock version, but was about - not a guy - but was written such that it was the woman who 'had life ruined in the house of the rising sun' - it actually seemed more believable.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 04:17 AM

Just to help this thread a little bit more, found this article.

The House of the Rising Sun is a United States folk song.
Like many classic folk ballads, the authorship of House of the Rising Sun, sometimes called "Rising Sun Blues", is dubious. Folklorist Alan Lomax, author of the seminal 1941 songbook Our Singing Country, wrote that the melody was taken from a traditional English ballad and the lyrics written by a pair of Kentuckians named Georgia Turner and Bert Martin. Other scholars have proposed different explanations, although Lomax's is generally considered most plausible.

In the early 20th century, the phrase "Rising Sun" may have been used as a euphemism for a brothel or house of prostitution, and it is not known whether or not the house described in the lyrics is an actual or fictitious place.

Various places in New Orleans, Louisiana have been proposed as the inspiration for the song, with varying plausibility. City directories of the late 19th century record a "Rising Sun Hall" in the riverfront of the uptown Carrollton neighborhood, which seems to have been a building owned and used for meetings of a Social Aid & Pleasure Club, commonly rented out for dances and functions. Links to gambling or prostitution, if any, are undoccumented for this building.

The traditional lyrics, as recorded by Lomax, are as follows:


There is a house in New Orleans
They call the Rising Sun.
It's been the ruin of many a poor girl,
and me, O God, for one.
If I had listened what Mamma said,
I'd 'a' been at home today.
Being so young and foolish, poor boy,
let a rambler lead me astray.
Go tell my baby sister
never do like I have done
to shun that house in New Orleans
they call the Rising Sun.
My mother she's a tailor;
she sold those new blue jeans.
My sweetheart, he's a drunkard, Lord, Lord,
drinks down in New Orleans.
The only thing a drunkard needs
is a suitcase and a trunk.
The only time he's satisfied
is when he's on a drunk.
Fills his glasses to the brim,
passes them around
only pleasure he gets out of life
is hoboin' from town to town.
One foot is on the platform
and the other one on the train.
I'm going back to New Orleans
to wear that ball and chain.
Going back to New Orleans,
my race is almost run.
Going back to spend the rest of my days
beneath that Rising Sun.

A popular version from the 1930s was recorded by Leadbelly. The best-known cover of the song is the 1960s version by The Animals, who added ambiguity to the lyrics by changing the gender of the singer. Other artists to cover the song include Woody Guthrie, Joan Baez, Bob Dylan, Pink Floyd, Peter, Paul and Mary, Dolly Parton and Johnny Hallyday.

This article is from Wikipedia. All text is available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: GUEST,guest mick
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 12:44 PM

Always sounded like a waltz to me Mted ,but then again I do have two left feet .


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 01:16 PM

Actually, I shouldn't have said anything quite so definitive--you can play it as four, or as three, depending on your taste--the Animals version is as I described, but, truth be told, the minor melody is really a slight variation of "Greensleeves", without it's B melody,(I guess you sing the B melody "House, House, of the Rising Sun...")


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 01:26 PM

Data in the Wikipedia, as always, is incorrect.
Lomax and Lomax, in "Our Singing Country," in their discussion of "The Rising Sun Blues," do not say that the lyrics were written by Turner and Morton (not Martin) but only that they are the lyrics used in "Our Singing Country," pp. 368-369. There are others that they could have chosen.
They do NOT say that that the melody was taken from a traditional English ballad; only that (to quote) ""Rising Sun," as a name for a bawdy house, occurs in a number of unprintable songs of English origin." They might just as well have mentioned that the 'sun ray mirror' was a feature of entrys in both France and New Orleans and that the 'Rising Sun' could refer to that.

The details are given in Randolph and Legman, "Roll Me in Your Arms," pp. 250-253. I will check thread 8592, and post there, if they have not already been mentioned. That is where discussion of this song's origin belongs, not as a digression under genre.

It will be a day of celebration when Wikipedia and similar sources of misinformation are removed from the web.


Foolstroupe, the DT and most early versions are about a 'poor girl.' See Randolph-Legman.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 01:41 PM

You certainly seem to know your stuff Q


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: woodsie
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 09:18 PM

The Villan states that among other artistes that have recorded it are Pink Floyd. This is not so, it was FRIJID PINK who had a hit single in 1970. I once downloaded the "Pink Floyd" version from WinMx only to discover that it was in fact the Frijid Pink version!


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 09:32 PM

The Villian posted what seems very like the version I remember. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: GUEST,Big Mick in Colorado Springs
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 01:01 PM

I just want to point out that "Guest, mick" above is not me.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: GUEST,karltom@mailcity.com
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 11:40 PM

Quite right, Texas Alexander sings a different song, unless there's another recording of the correct title and lyrics. It's unlikely that there is, however, because 1) the song seems to have originated from Kentucky and 2) the original lyrics were about a woman and I doubt that a Texas bluesman would have changed the gender for an adaptation.
See Alan Lomax's comments about the 1937 recording at, among other places,
http://www.fact-index.com/t/th/the_house_of_the_rising_sun.html
although I've seen other claims of earlier country recordings under slightly different titles but haven't researched these. If anyone does, please let me know what you find!
Recording is in print
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000AUHRE
The place of origin clearly makes it country, but fellow countryman Doc Boggs played some pretty sad ballads that might be called blues. Rather than getting hung up on catagories, suffice it to say that it originated from white folk, not black.
How New Orleans ties into Kentucky is another mystery for the musicologysts and historians.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 05 Jul 04 - 09:18 PM

It's certainly a POPular song!


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it?
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 12:09 AM

The Animals got it from Dylan's first album as they did "Baby Let Me Take You Home" (Baby Let Me Follow You Down) It was the record company PR people who made them change the gender, as this changes the meaning of the song and the likelihood of BBC airplay (at that time)would have been zero if the song had been about a prostitute. Also that fat theiving prat Alan Price still claims the writers royalty! Even though he hated the song and didn't want to record it.


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Subject: RE: Which Genre is it? (House of the Rising Sun)
From: pavane
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 03:59 AM

Woodsie, I think you are wrong there. Right back to the very earliest recorded version (1931) quoted in the origins thread, it is a 'poor boy', not a girl.

RISING SUN BLUES

There is a house in New Orleans
They call the Rising Sun
Where many a poor boy to destruction has gone
And me, Oh God, I'm one


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