BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK

Subject: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 07:07 AM

Unbeleivable

My autistic daughter has big problems with her food. For example, she will not put things like cheese and meats on any bread and will only eat them seperately. Everything has to be eaten in a particular order. If anything is missing from her lunchbox that she expects to be there, it becomes and inconsolable problem.

Now my wife keeps a very close watch on her diet, and makes sure she has healthy foods in her lunchbox that ensure she eats a balanced diet.
Last week my wife put unsalted cashew nuts in her box I think for protien purposes (which my daughter had to agree before hand) and when she came home from school, she hadn't eaten them. When questioned, she told us that the dinner lady had banned her from eating them at school becuase of the possibilty of choking and nut allergy issues. Incidentally this lady has no knowledge of autism and neither should she be expected to do.

Due to that she will not eat nuts anymore (if you know anything about autism you will understand why)

So we rang the headmaster, who conformed that he is not allowed to let children have nuts at school.

So my wife said "What about peanut butter"
Yes thats fine says he.

Not much good says my wife
Why not said he.
Because your dinner lady has frightened our daughter into not wanting to eat nuts anymore.

Very sorry says he, but my hands are tied by the rules.

When will this sort of crap ever stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 07:25 AM

Sadly, probably never.

My son Tristan also has Autistic Spectrum Disorder and it is very hard for many to understand, especially since not all symptoms are displayed by all who have autism. It is probably the most misunderstood mental illness but then again I can think of many others equally misunderstood. I appreciate the cashew story. Made me smile becasue it could have been Tris!

I gave up on schools, their rules, and trying to explain to them a long time back. Now I get the rules and ask myself, "Okay, how do I get this one to work for us?" Like your nuts versus PB, some of them are just non-sensical......or "nuts" in this case!(:<))

Good Luck!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:12 AM

No one knows why, but nut allergy has become a real problem, and sufferers can and do die from trivial exposure. What else can schools do?
I thought that this was going to be about the council who banned door mats in case someone tripped over one.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:27 AM

Who mentioned nanny states ??

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Sooz
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 09:19 AM

There is no edict which bans nuts, although individual schools may choose to do so because of allergy issues.
The new standard says no confectionary or bagged savoury snacks other
than nuts and seeds (without added salt or sugar)will be sold in schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 11:27 AM

Thansk for that Sooz. That means the school have decided. I will have to have a chat with the head teacher :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 11:36 AM

My son grew up with an allergy to peanut butter, peanuts, grapes and raisans, but we NEVER expected the school to ban those from everyone else's diets! He was expected to pay attention and be responsible, himself. When he didn't, he paid for it with a trip to the hospital. He eventually outgrew it.

Likewise, my grandson is allergic to eggs. That doesn't mean his daycare and the rest of us cannot have eggs. Even at almost three years old, if he is told something has egg in it he knows it is "icky" and will not touch it. He also wears a medic alert tag so that caregivers, etc. are reminded and are careful. It's ridiculous to think all should be banned from eating one food, becasue of one's allergies. Are they going to start eliminating all the bees, ragweed, etc. which also cause allergies?

Good luck to you and it's sad that this has happened.

kat

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 01:02 PM

Schools who ban nuts are acting in everyones interest. Nut allergy can kill. Not eating nuts can't kill. Once a child opens a bag they can't be expected to police which other child has one too.

Presumably peanut butter is allowed on the basis that a child is more likely to share a bag of nuts than a sandwich?

They've had to draw a line somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 01:18 PM

Guest you are talking a load of B******* as far as I am concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 01:33 PM

The whole "nut" thing gets clear down to telling the public if ANYnut product of any sort MAY have come in contact with other foods. This has become a common "Posted Warning" in many food establishments. However, to ban nuts and not the other products like P-B and peanut oil makes no sense whatsoever to me.

For me, part of the issue here is talking to kids in general about this and other things. Many kids, not just Autistic children, take everything said by authority figures to heart and in most cases that's okay. The problem with kids like Tris and Villain's daughter is that once told something like this it is nigh ass next to impossible to convince them otherwise!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: bobad
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 01:48 PM

I interpret the ban on nuts and not on P-B etc. as a choking preventative not an allergy issue as the prevalence of peanut allergy is considerably greater than that of tree nuts. The two are unrelated BTW as peanuts are legumes, more akin to peas and lentils than to tree nut.

It seems that someone at the school is not clear in their understanding of food allergies.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 01:56 PM

Guest you are talking a load of B******* as far as I am concerned

I am sure the teachers are looking forward to your visit. Like I said nuts can kill. Not eating them can't. For your child it isn't a matter of life and death whether she ever eats another nut again is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Becca72
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 02:00 PM

Guest,
Approximtely 1% of the total population of the US is allergic to peanuts. The percentgage of all people (not just children) with a fatal allergy to peanuts is infinitely smaller than that. I'm sure the same can be said for milk, eggs, spider bites, etc, yet those things are not banned (although spider bites should be for other reasons!). So should we ban lunch at school altogether?

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:02 PM

Expecting the total removal of nuts from a public situation, like a school, for the sake of the small proportion with an allergey is totally over the top.
Shall we ban heights, liquids and cars from public life as well? I'm sure more people are allergic to drowning, falls, and auto accidents than peanuts...

Guest 1.02 pm, I'm sorry if your child has had a bad experience with peanuts. Does that give you the right to dictate to everyone what they should do? What about those people with dairy or gluten allergies? Should the whole world ban bread and milk as well as peanuts.
than expecting people to remove it from any food they might com in contact with

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:04 PM

Ignore that last line, I missed it when I cut the paragraph out....

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:11 PM

Becca the majority of children with allergy to milk and egg actually outgrow it by the time they reach school age. Nut allergy is outgrown by a far lesser per cent and in some is an indefinite and potentially life threatening allergy.

As mentioned above they also present a choking hazard in young children.

Allergies are taken seriously nowadays. As is needless infant death. The risk they present is small but easily eliminated and therefore it is eliminated. That makes perfect sense to most parents of young children. Especially those coping with allergies.

Schools are not the only place to take the sensible approach and ban something that doesn't need to be there, but has inherent risks for a minority of children. Airlines (some) have also banned nuts on board. Adults/children can have severe reactions just by being in close proximity to someone else eating them.

Would you rather your flight unexpectedly forced to land mid flight to off load a dangerously ill passenger just so someone else can eat nuts? The airlines thankfully obviously recognise the risk.

You ask if schools should ban lunch? I think it is a lot easier to ban the foods that have proven risks. I take it you are neither a parent of young children or a relative of someone with a nut allergy.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Becca72
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:39 PM

Well, Guest 3:11pm what I've read has said that about 20% of children outgrow their nut allergies. I have also found where most nut allergies are developed as adults. Speaking as someone who has many allergies I would never expect others to ban something on my behalf...I simply removed myself from the situation. As for the airlines, I'm willing to take the chance that I will not be flying on the exact flight as one of the only 3 million Americans with a nut allergy.
As for choking, it's possible to choke on anything that is put in one's mouth so that's not a valid argument in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:48 PM

No, my parters allergy is actually to Capsicum, the principal flavour in peppers and chillies, which is often unlabelled, or described as spices or flavouring.

Everything is a proven risk. Smoking has been proving to be a much larger risk than traces of pesticides on fruits, but both are a risk.

Please quote me where I suggested banning Lunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:01 PM

Well, Guest 3:11pm what I've read has said that about 20% of children outgrow their nut allergies

Yes becca, a minority of children, which is what I said. The majority of children do not outgrow their allergy by the time they reach school age, as your quote above confirms. I don't understand your inability to grasp this fairly simple concept.

As an adult you can choose to remove yourself from whatever situation you want to. Five year old children have adults to make decisions which put their safety first. You don't see the merit in removing the biggest culprit of anaphylaxis from schools.

As someone not responsible for a child or decision making in schools your opinion thankfully carries no weight. Would you insist on your rights to munch through a bag of peanuts in the workplace because only one person suffers because of your actions? I doubt it.

Bunna I did not address you at all in my post.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:12 PM

Notice on a package of nuts:

"Warning...product was processed in a facility that processes nuts."

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:21 PM

So going on the arguments above, why didn't the US have a blanket ban on preztels when the Shrub choked on his and concussed himself on a table?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:25 PM

ummm...we were just hoping, I guess.....

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:33 PM

Peanuts are a member of the pea family. They grow underground. Nuts grow on trees. However, some people have severe allergic reactions to one, the other or both. If the reaction is severe, the airway will swell and choke the person fairly quickly. Many students with allergies of that nature and that are that severe carry epipens (immediate injection into the muscles of the thigh). I have met people who react if someone who's recently eaten peanuts even breathes on them.

Villan, I do understand the nture of children with autism. I am sorry that happened to your child. I will message you separately with an idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: rich-joy
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:50 PM

A friend just returned from the UK brought news of the ban on the age-old game of Conkers!!!!!! ... and that one headmaster said kids could play it IF they wore crash helmets :~)))

Then there's some ruling about no headache pills being allowed in public restaurants - not even in a staffer's locker - and the subsequent illegality of giving a customer any relief for their pain!!!

WH&S legislation was rightly instigated to protect workers from bad work practices, but has ended up stifling and strait-jacketing and over-controlling the population. It's yet another police force.

Sadly, it's now all part of the current "you are not authorised to think - we will tell you what to do" dumming-down of the West's populations. We ignore these incursions into our rights to make our own decisions (and our own mistakes) at our peril ...


R-J

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 06:02 PM

"Policy means no one has to think."

Policy is pandemic.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 06:52 PM

Because we in britain don't make anything useful anymore we can only manufacture jobs. In this process someone is given a meaningless and never before seen occupation that they then have to justify. If they can build a workload sufficiently onerous they can then ask for help, making themselves head of a department. They can then create more non-work and promote themselves to manager. Soon Britain will be employing everyone to screw up the lives of everyone else. Everyone will become a manager and everyone will be policing some aspect of everyone else's lives. Health and safety is but one of the manifestations of this idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 07:00 PM

It is not idiocy to ban peanuts or nuts in schools where children have severe allergies to it. It is just common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 07:05 PM

Everything is dangerous to someone, somewhere. The answer? Ban everything...at least from schools. Then all the children will be safe. It's so obvious that I'm surprised it hasn't been made law yet. Keeping track of it all and monitoring it would also provide many useful jobs for idiots who yearn to be petty dictators and enforce complex rules and regulations upon helpless children...and that's just one of the many lucrative spinoffs to such a health and safety plan. Think of the possibilities for the legal profession...

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 07:11 PM

Yes, lawyers. The cause of all the problems!

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: bobad
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 07:24 PM

I think Richard Bridge's opinion may differ, wordy.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 07:29 PM

Don't mention banning food in the company of overweight people. War will be declared I tell ya.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:05 PM

As far as choking is concerned, my daughter is 11 and quite capable of taking care. Anyway we allowed her to take nuts to school as part of a vitamin controlled diet. If she choked on a nut, then that is our responsibility.

I wonder if we can legally challenge the school on this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 09:30 PM

If children are so thoroughly protected from the *real* world, imagine how incapable they might be in coping with it when they are on their own. Better to educate them and give them some responsibility than to ban all foods outright.

And, yes, epi-pens are a good idea. My grandson's is with him at all times, but, thankfully, we've never had to use it.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: JennieG
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 02:47 AM

A few years ago the school that my sons attended (long after they had left) had a case where a 13YO boy died after eating peanut butter. He was on a reciprocal visit to another school, and a trivia game was being played - the 'penalty' for a wrong answer was to do something a bit silly and (normally) harmless. In his case it was to eat a spoonful of peanut butter, and for some reason he didn't say he was allergic to peanuts. His school and teachers knew of his allergy but somehow the fact had not been communicated to the school they were visiting.

A tragic mistake that should never have happened.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Sooz
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 03:56 AM

I've always thought that schools would be delightful places if we banned children..........................

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 07:43 AM

I think I read recently the fact that only eight children in the Uk had died of nut allergy in the last ten years.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 07:55 AM

My child can cope with eating nuts...

I can remove myself from harmful situations...

and so forth. The people arguing against the ban are not thinking of others. Only themself or their own matter. That's sad but there are always some who can't see beyond their shadow.

Villan if you get enough parents together who think it is more important that their kid eats nuts than one kid suffers because of it, you could challenge the board of Govenors. But if that school has even one child with nut allergy you don't stand a chance. And that isn't taking into account the children who will develop the allergy who don't present it now.

Would you like to lead that campaign and then take responsibility for the kind of situation that jennieg describes above?

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 08:11 AM

So why not monitor the child (if any) with the nut allergy? That would allow other children to continue eating nuts as they wished.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 08:18 AM

It will depend a little on what level of school we're talking about. If you're looking at a junior school, with children of just 5 years old, then banning nuts is far less unreasonable than at a secondary or high school.
If by the age of 11, (or thereabouts, whatever the age is in your country) a child cannot be responsible enough to avoid their particular allergen, then are they really mature enough to be in the school at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 09:07 AM

So why not monitor the child (if any) with the nut allergy? That would allow other children to continue eating nuts as they wished.

Think about it logically. Schools are under funded as it is, their budget does not run to having someone to spend all break times with allergy sufferers to make sure they don't eat nuts. I would rather paid helpers are paid to sit in classrooms and support less able children to read and write.

Then as pointed out above nut allergy is particularly nasty as it can be triggered by just being in close proximity to someone who has eaten nuts. There is no way to monitor who a child comes into contact with from 9.00 to 3.15.

Bunna you make the assumption that all 11 year old children have the same powers of intellect and reasoning. They don't. But they shouldn't be excluded from education because of it. And their school has a responsibility to ensure their safety.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 09:44 AM

So what happens with these children outside school hours? Do their parents keep them sequestered from all other children just in case someone's mum bought another child some nuts as a snack after school?

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 10:34 AM

So what you get, is parents going out and buying food and handing it to their children through the railings of the school. Wonderful.

Guest, your reasoning is so over the top.

I can't due to my duaghters disbilty allow her to walk top school on her own, becuase of the traffic etc and her impulsiveness. So can I have all the traffic stopped whilst my daughter walks to school on her own. If I follow your nuts argument, the answer should be yes.

Get a sense of proportion Guest. People like you are making this country a misery.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 10:56 AM

Hey Vill.....Convinced your daughter that nuts are okay yet?(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 11:29 AM

Today I had to chastise a HOSPITAL for having a split lavatory seat..... maybe they were short of customers over in A&E, but I can sure tell you I wouldn't be happy explaining just HOW I got severe bruising to my botty!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 11:58 AM

jacqui the parents have to treat every day occurences like sleepovers and parties with utmost care. It is hassle for the parents but that is nothing compared to the inconvenience to the child.

The parents where the child will be are aware of the visiting childs allergy and nine times out of ten go out of their way to make sure they don't come into contact with the source of their allergy. If they don't feel they can take on that commitment they aren't forced into the situation. They either do or don't feel comfortable having to take on the responsibility.

One of the biggest worries is the child with the allergy vomiting in their sleep and choking on it. It happens.

I suspose they could as you suggest hide the child away from everyday life, but thankfully nowadays enough people are educated enough to see the negatives in that as a solution.

villan I am afraid it is your arguments that are out of proportion. Comparing a school ban on nuts to stopping the traffic is not worth discussing. I notice you haven't said if you would be willing to accept the responsibility of a child's death following your stirling campaign to reinstate nuts into a school.

Your child doesn't face traffic in the playground so why should someones else's child with a different danger be forced to face it in school? Or is it only your child that merits protection?

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 01:27 PM

When we found out my grandson had an egg allergy, he wound up in an ambulance going to the ER. He had three doses of epinephrine before we made it to the ER. He was near one year old at that time. EVERYONE who is in contact with him, since that time, is well educated about his allergy. He is old enough now to understand when we say "no, you can't have that. It has egg in it and is *icky* for you." He accepts this. No, he is not able to read contents, yet, but he also doesn't go around willy-nilly sucking up other people's food. My daughter buys all of his snacks, etc. for daycare, all with no egg content, fresh fruits and veggies are great! She educates anyone who has him for any length of time. He plays with other children at daycare every day. With the caregiver and our educating he has NEVER had an allergic incident while out of our care.

Education is the key to anything of this sort, not denial of foods to those not effected.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 01:37 PM

Unfortunately the peculiarity of nut allergy means a severe reaction can manifest just by the child being near someone else who has eaten nuts. As said over and over again above. It isn't simply a case of telling billy bob not to eat nuts and all will be ok. If only life was that simple.

Thank goodness some schools have taken the measure to ban the things, as adults clearly have trouble comprehending the fundamentals of the situation. No matter how often it is explained to them.

With any luck your grandson will outgrow his allergy in early childhood. Nut allergists on the whole suffer it for life.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 01:54 PM

A 61 year old retired doctor died after being stung by a wasp on a golf course in Quebec a few years back. The EpiPen he had in his golf bag had expired 5 years earlier. The coroner made these recommendations;

"About 45 per cent of allergy sufferers are equipped with outdated EpiPens, Ramsay estimated.

He recommended patients carry two doses of EpiPen or the Twinject, which provides a double dose in the same applicator, and for manufacturers of auto-injectors to provide patients renewal notices of their products."

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 02:38 PM

Epi pens are not a cure all. You inject epiphrine into your child ( it is adrenaline) and you have approximately 15 minutes to get to a casualty department before it wears off. A common reason why anyone in more rural areas have to multi dose.

So what is better for the child with the nut allergy:

1. Being injected with hormones/adrenaline/epiphrine every day if they come into contact with nuts, or come into contact with someone else who has been eating nuts. Then having them whisked out of school every day to an emergency room in a hopefully nearby hospital.

or

2. Banning nuts from the school.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 03:22 PM

Some people's allergies are severe enough that the breath from a person who's eaten nuts will cause them to have a severe allergic reaction. So there are two choices:

1) Get the cooperation of all kids and care givers to keep the cause of the reaction out of the school

2) Tell the kid with allergies to go elsewhere

3) Put the kid in a plastic bubble

What would your choice be?