BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST,opening poster
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 03:37 PM

Guest 3.22, at last someone who is able to put someone else before themself. Welcome you are a novelty around here. The majority of contributors to this thread would choose option 2 or 3. Because afterall they have a RIGHT to eat what they want and when they want and bugger the consequences.

Hey folks it really is a caring, sharing world out there right?

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 04:39 PM

Talking to yourself Guest? Without a name, we don't know if there's one, two or twenty Guests posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 04:43 PM

Then inform the management that Guests should not be allowed to post. Problem would be solved.



This argument is very muck like the smoking debate--should smokers be allowed to have their smoke get into the systems of non-smokers. Put the nut allergy in that light, and the issue is very clear. The one difference being that the nut allergy will kill the kid very quickly and the smoking 'allergy' will kill the people who inhale very slowly.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 04:44 PM

My son outgrew his severe allergy to peanuts, peanut butter, grapes and raisans. He survived schools which did not ban any kind of food allergens. After we discovered his affliction, he didn't suffer again except one time when a young and defiant teen. He decided to have p. butter at a friend's house. He wound up at the ER and never tried that again. Back then there was no mention of epi-pens. Now, my grandson's are updated and he has two with him at all times, though the ER is no more than 5-10 minutes away.

Education=prevention.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 05:07 PM

"If by the age of 11, (or thereabouts, whatever the age is in your country) a child cannot be responsible enough to avoid their particular allergen, then are they really mature enough to be in the school at all?"

In my experience, schools do not require any kind of a maturity level as a prerequisite for enrolment - if they did, teaching might be a pleasant job.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 05:37 PM

Kat you are evry lucky that your son never came into contact with anyone who had been eating nuts in his school life. Or perhaps your idea of very severe differs from others.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 05:45 PM

Guest and Guest,

It is unreasonable to expect a school to ban nuts because a small minority have an adverse reaction and an even smaller minority have a potentially fatal reaction. If you go down that route, then all sorts of things will get banned to point where practically nothing is permitted.

If your child has an adverse reaction to nuts, it is your responsibility as a parent to take steps to ensure that he/she does not suffer by both ensuring the school is properly informed and more importantly ensuring your child is educated to deal with the issue.

You cannot protect your child forever from situations where they may come into contact with nuts, so you have to ensure they know how to manage it and the sooner they learn the better.

Your are exhibiting a strategy seen all too often these days of risk avoidance rather than risk management. The reason behind it, all to often is to do things to "cover your back" rather than because they are reasonable things to do in their own right.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 06:03 PM

Tootler I don't have any expectations of schools other than to eduacte and keep children as safe as possible. That is their responsibility while the children are on their premises.

I suggest you ask the heads of the schools concerned why they have imposed a ban. I imagine the fact that they don't want any child's education unecessarily disrupted would be high on their list.

Pupils learn better in the classroom than in a casualty department. Not to mention the disruption of a staff member having to accompany that child to hospital on what could be a daily basis.

Of course schools are informed. Of course you educate the child what to do in an emergency. What you can't do is impart them with the psychic ability to know who has or hasn't eaten nuts during break times. If avoidance at school lessens the chance of child fatality then more power to the schools who have their priorities right. They are obviously taking their responsibilities seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 08:13 PM

Severe in my son's and grandson's cases was swollen lips, eyes, throat and terrible hives. Immediate attention necessary to prevent the need of an emergency tracheotomy, which, at the time of my son's allergy, I was trained to do, having worked as an EMT. I am grateful that was never necessary.

You say children learn best in school. Yes! Teach ALL of the students about the need to be careful with such allergens, but do not deny it to them. As vegetarians my kids and I ate nuts a lot when they were growing up, with the exception of peanuts for my son, obviously.

Medic Alert has very attractive kid-oriented bracelets, shoe tags, and necklaces which should be worn by any child who has a medical problem, no matter if it is food related or not. TELL the other kids, parents, and teachers, etc. what it means. TEACH them how to prevent any problems.

When someone was scalded by McDonald's coffee and sued, they didn't ban coffe. They paid a settlement and added a warning label to the coffee cups. You cannot protect children forever. They must be educated.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 08:46 PM

TELL the other kids, parents, and teachers, etc. what it means. TEACH them how to prevent any problems.

It isn't getting through is it? Some children with nut allergy are at a life threatening risk if they come into contact with a person who has eaten nuts. Are you advocating segregation in schools? Seperate classrooms for nut allergists? Seperate sports changing rooms? Seperate dining halls? Seperate toilet facilities?

It is physically impossible to police who a child does and doesn't talk to or walk near at school. And neither should it be entertained as a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 08:51 PM

Perhaps someone could explain why there are today so many cases of food allergy or intolerance.
Those of us of an older generation were brought up on peanut butter, eggs, cheese and dairy produce plus lashings of salt and sugar (used as a preservative). We never heard of food allergies except in very rare cases.
If a child had a food intolerance that child was taught to avoid any potentially harmful foods. Even diabetics were allowed to manage their own diets. There was never any thought of banning sugar because it could kill a diabetic!

Personally I have a destation of garlic. It causes me headaches and vomiting, even when transmitted just by someone's breath. In my view it is the most noxious of additions to food.
However, as an osteopath I am obliged to work in very close proximity to my patients, some of whom smell as if they have just eaten a garlic sandwich! I have no choice in the matter, other than to refuse them treatment, so I have to manage my own problem as well as I can.

As has been stated above, to deny all for the sake of one, who can well be taught to manage their own lifestyle, is nothing short of abrogation of parental or management responsibility. In other words, lack of parental inclination to take responsibility for their own child's actions but to pass that responsibility to others. Looking for someone else to blame.

Finally, to return to the opening sentence, I would love to hear views and thoughts sa to why there are so many "allergy" cases today.

Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 09:03 PM

Nice To Know:

Allergic symptoms can start within minutes or an hour or two after eating the food. In people who are extremely allergic to a food, merely inhaling miniscule amounts of the food or touching the food is enough to trigger a reaction. However merely touching the food rarely causes a systemic reaction. In fact, it is often quite surprising that a peanut allergic individual may get peanut butter on her skin without having a systemic reaction.


From here. Lots of other stuff there too--about allergies.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 09:03 PM

When a child is in school their well being is the schools responsibility. The schools decide whether to impose a ban.

Unfortunately a severe nut allergy is only controlled by avoidance or daily epi shots and casualty visits.

As I stated before schools do not want even one childs education disrupted by not being in the classroom. They do not have the resource either to lose a member of staff to take the child to the casulaty department in the required 15 minutes following the shot.

You are correct that allergies are on the rise. The reasons behind the increase has been attributed to a number of factors. Take your pick as there is no definitive answer. Awareness is also on the rise. Measures to prevent needless child fatality are also on the rise.

A very good point was made above regarding the smoking ban. Fifty years ago that would have been decried as ludicrous, stifling our rights, unworkable. Times move on and some folk do and some folk don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 09:07 PM

It's a ban I agree with, and I'm a smoker.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 09:41 PM

So what happens when these children grow up and go out into the world? How do they manage when working with others who may have eaten nuts in the workplace or on a break? What about travelling on public transport, in close proximity to who knows what? Can they never visit a pub or go into a restaurant or cinema?

So far as school is concerned what if one of their classmates has eaten nuts on the way to school? What about the ones who might go home for dinner and have nuts there?

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 11:10 PM

Yes indeed. Lets make it as hard on the kids as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 03:01 AM

Guest, you have an aweful lot to say but do not have the guts to say who you really are.

This is one of the very good reasons why Guests should not be allowed to post until they have joined Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 03:55 AM

I'd just like to say that the unnamed GUEST is not me - but it could easily have been. I abhor most of the nonsense that goes down in the cause of Health & Safety, but in this case GUEST is spot on.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 04:51 AM

I have to disagree, Terry K. My concern is that anonymous Guest is being over protective of his kids and that does them no favours at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Hawker
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 04:53 AM

At my daughters old school there was a child with a nut allergy. All the children were made aware of this and had it explained to them the seriousness of this condition and what to do if an allergic reaction should occur. They were all told that ifthey had food which they knew had nut traces in it, to sit at another table to this child at meal times. They were educated in the importance of washing their hands after handling food. My daughter became very aware of what foods had nuts or nut traces in them. My daughter now not only has a knowledge of how important it is that a person allergic to nuts has NO contact with them and an awareness how important it is to get help IMMEDIATELY should an allergic reaction occur. She knows what an epipen is and how one should be used. Consequently she goes out into the big wide world with the knowledge that could one day save someones life and at the same time the child who had the allergy goes out into the big wide world having led a nearer normal school life and with an awareness of how to fit into everyday situations without being wrapped in cotton wool. Sometimes we have to compromie and find a half way point. Parents with autistic children know this only too well! (I am one myself) It may be worth investigating if there is a child with a nut allergy at your childs school - or indeed any other allergy - and asking what they have done to educate the children about such allergies.
It appears to me that the school also need educating on how to handle issues with autistic children too. I hope you can persuade your daughter to eat nuts again and that we can all learn to live together in a society where living together means we are aware of each others needs and how to deal with them rather then just sweeping them under a mat by banning them so they cant harm us. I firmly believe education is the way to go here. Banning will just lead to more ignorance - and I do have a sister with a food allergy that has almost killed her three times, she also agrees that banning is NOT the answer. More education is.
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 06:09 AM

I am with you there Lucy.

My duaghter is still not eating nuts.

A couple of years ago, another dinner lady, saw my daughter with a full mouth of food, and said to her "You musn't do that you will choke to death. You have too eat very slowly."

It took us a year to get her to eat normally again. She used to eat a very very very small piece of bread at a time and took about five minutes before she had satisfied herself that she wouldn't choke from it. Consequently she never finished a quarter of her lunch, becuase the lunch break was over.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 10:10 AM

Hawker has described excatly what I mean. Schools using education to make the allergy suffer safe. Last time I checked, schools were supposed to be educating their pupils, and why should that stop at acedemic subjects?

It has a postive effect for both the sufferer, and the other pupils in the school, and works 24 hours a day. Surely better than the cotton wool approach....

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 02:54 PM

LOL.....Villan, I'm sorry if I laugh but its so great to listen to others with autistic kids. Tristan will not eat mac and cheese without applesauce on top for a reason too long to explain. He "inspects every casserole for any sign of onion and it has nothing to do with the taste.

And then all the other "ordered" things which require multiple and repetitious responses to the point of exasperation...........But he is the light of our lives!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 03:31 PM

So what happens when these children grow up and go out into the world? How do they manage when working with others who may have eaten nuts in the workplace or on a break? What about travelling on public transport, in close proximity to who knows what? Can they never visit a pub or go into a restaurant or cinema?

So far as school is concerned what if one of their classmates has eaten nuts on the way to school? What about the ones who might go home for dinner and have nuts there?

Presumably you mean the children who don't outgrow the allergy? They make adult decisions. They work with adults who either do or don't understand the problem. Would you as an adult eat nuts next to an adult who has told you about their allergy?

You are right public transport and cinemas are a big problem and at best avoided. Airlines already are bringing in the nut ban for health and safety reasons as outlined earlier in this thread. Restaurants indicate any dish with nut derived ingredients.

So far as school is concerned, none of the primary schoools that I know that have the ban have primary school age children going home for lunch and haven't for many years. Parents of children who share a class with a nut allergist are fully aware of the problems. If they wish to put another child at risk because their child HAS to eat nuts on the way to school it is very quickly discovered and they wouldn't win any competitions for 'parent of the year.'

Last time I checked, schools were supposed to be educating their pupils, and why should that stop at acedemic subjects?

How do you propose to stop a child with nut allergy from coming into proximity with any of the 1000+ pupils who may have eaten nuts at lunch time? Or do you think daily visits to casualty enhance a child's education?

At my daughters old school there was a child with a nut allergy. All the children were made aware of this and had it explained to them the seriousness of this condition and what to do if an allergic reaction should occur. They were all told that ifthey had food which they knew had nut traces in it, to sit at another table to this child at meal times. They were educated in the importance of washing their hands after handling food. My daughter became very aware of what foods had nuts or nut traces in them. My daughter now not only has a knowledge of how important it is that a person allergic to nuts has NO contact with them and an awareness how important it is to get help IMMEDIATELY should an allergic reaction occur. She knows what an epipen is and how one should be used.

Top marks for educating the children. Bottom marks for thinking segregation works. The school is seriously uneducated if it thinks that by seperating children for an hour at lunchtime the problem vanishes. The nut allergist is in danger for many hours if they come into contact with a child who has eaten nuts. Not just at lunchtime. Did they have seperate classrooms, toilets, changing rooms, assembly halls etc etc etc....and to think an epi pen is a cure all I have already covered above. It delays the reaction for 15 minutes and the child has to get to an emergency department in a hospital within 15 minutes. Maybe you would be happy injecting adrenaline in to your child every day and rushing him to hospital every day. Schools don't think that is acting in the childs best interest luckily.

I have to disagree, Terry K. My concern is that anonymous Guest is being over protective of his kids and that does them no favours at all.

I have never stated I have a child with a nut allergy but thanks for your concern.

Guest, you have an aweful lot to say but do not have the guts to say who you really are.

This is one of the very good reasons why Guests should not be allowed to post until they have joined Mudcat.

Not worth an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 04:02 PM

Who are you guest. I think you are deliberately feeding this thread which happens to be the one I started in order to incite.
State your name you wimp

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 04:11 PM

villan I notice you still haven't answered the question as to whether you would take full responsibility for a child fatality following your campaign to overturn a nut ban in a school.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 04:48 PM

Guest, I am with Villan. Until you give yourself a name and say who you are, why should he address your question?

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 05:01 PM

I am not that Guest. But, since the site allows Guest posters, why should it be an issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 05:14 PM

Guest 5.01 it isn't an issue, it is the last refuge of the person who has no other valid argument. Let's not derail this thread.

villan started a very worthwhile thread. He didn't get 100% support and so calls differing opinion incitement. If it wasn't a serious issue I would be cracking up at his powers of reasoned debate.

He has been posed a question in response to his claim that he would like to see a nut ban in a school removed. His only option to continue his stance is to take full responsibility for a possible child fatality. Which of course he wouldn't. Because like so many other posters on here it is always someone else's problem/fault/responsibility.

He can try and kick back with snide comments which are in an effort to detract from him squirming on the end of a hook he has cast himself.

Not a pleasant place to be. And one very good reason why someone should always be sure they have the courage of their convictions and accept the consequence of their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 05:18 PM

However, Villan is a fine person, so let's all back up a bit. He would not care to have a child die as a result of stuff like this, and any suggestion he would is just plain wrong. That ain't him.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST,guest 5.14
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 05:35 PM

Sorry but the whole point is if he cared he wouldn't want to remove a ban that exists wholly to protect children. Simple. His child's life is not threatened by eating nuts or never seeing another nut again.

Would you wear perfume/aftershave if visiting a friend with severe allergy to either?

Would you buy a kitten as a present for a person with an allergy to cats?

Would you suggest bee keeping as a good hobby to someone allergic to their stings?

Would you plan an evening of oysters and champagne for a loved one allergic to shellfish/seafood?

Of course you wouldn't, instead you would think of their needs before your own. You can cope quite adequately forsaking all of the above while in their company. Or would you stammp up and down saying " I love cats and you must too."

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 05:45 PM

Guest I have enough problems looking after my daughters intersts.
Secondly, it is not a good time for me to get too deep in a conversation, when my father passed away a week last Saturday. I have too much to do with his funeral at the moment.
I console myself in the fact that I at least try to do some good by running a folk club and keeping folk alive.
Thank you for the last post Guest, presumably not the one who is trying to wind me up.

Guest lets just say that we have difffering opinions. The main difference is that most people know who I am, but not many know who you are.

Joe Offer I think under the circumstances it might be a good idea to close this thread as it is starting to get heated. Whilst guest is posting without identifying him or herself, I see very little point in coming back on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 06:46 PM

Getting heated? The only person to post insults is yourself.

You have already decided you know everything there is to know about allergy, so why close the thread and prevent others from learning. Why don't you just stop opening it?

If we are to be expected to appreciate the effort you put into your 'daughters problems', then show others the same respect. Schools have anything upwards of 200 sons and daughters to look after.

Sorry about your Dad.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 06:57 PM

Nuts don't kill people: People kill people.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Hawker
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 07:22 PM

Villain, Sympathy to you sincerely, I send you warm thoughts.
Guest. I can see where you are coming from, but feel that you may be being a little extreme. If we follow your argument we may as well stop society from doing everything. I keep cats but have a friend with a severe cat allergy. She has chosen to keep me as a friend. She comes to my house, but takes relevant medication before she visits. My eldest daughter will soon be old enough to drive. I know that there is a risk that she MAY get herself killed in a car accident, do I prevent her from driving? Maybe I should give up driving too, just in case. I am asthmatic, Perhaps if I stop breathing I will not poison my lungs with the pollution that the life we live today pumps out into the world...........................................
Yes, we need to understand, we need to be educated but somewhere along the road your theory fails - you protect them through school by banning nuts, they go out into the world and what then? do we just have a blanket ban on Nuts? Can we then ban Tree Pollen, which has put me in hospital several times? Bees need to be banned - and shellfish, so my sister is safe too..... where does it end? How about banning Sugar to protect diabetics and banning wheat to protect coeliacs? I feel you made your point initially but are now maybe being Devils advocate. Give the guy a break, In my opinion, if the school has a NO NUTS policy it should ensure that parents are aware of it! That was obviously not the case. Had the school made clear their decision, I am sure that all would comply with it and no confusion would have arisen. They are at fault, whether the nuts ban is right or wrong!
In peace, Yours
Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 08:15 PM

If you read this thread you will find I have answered all your questions.

If adults can't grasp the reasoning and nature of nut allergy and it's effect on a child's health and education it shows us why schools and airlines are in part banning them.

Unlike your friend a nut allergist can not take medication to prevent a reaction. Do you genuinely believe that children should be expected to be pumped with adrenaline and rushed to casualty instead of being in a classroom?

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Crystal
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 05:17 AM

Hi Villian,
When I was at school I had a similar experience to your daughter. I had just moved to a new Junior school and my mother packed my lunchbox as she always did, Orange, Peanut butter sandwich, raisins and a small pack of organic crisps. I was just about to start eating my crisps when a dinner lady stormed up, snatched the open bag from my hands and told me that I wasn't allowed them as I could choke (I was 6 at the time). This totally traumatised me, I proceeded to have a hysterical fit and had to be taken to the nurses office to calm down. The school I had been to previously was run by the same LEA and wasn't far away but had always allowed crisps at lunchtime. There was nothing in the written school rules to say I wasn't allowed crisps with my lunch, but apparently I wasn't on the say so of one dinner lady. I was unable to eat lunch at school without bursting into tears for several weeks and it was 7 years before I could eat crisps again. I'm NOT autistic and it is terrible to think that children who are are being scarred for life by crass insensativity. What our schools need is training for staff in how to handle children with a whole range of problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Heallth & Safety gone nuts UK
From: Hawker
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 05:30 AM

As I have already said, Guest, and this is the last I have to say, as I have said my piece. I understand your stance and no, no-one should be pumped fuill of un-necessary drugs, I hate taking any medication, but in order for me to live a full and active life I have to take many tablets every day. One of the tablets I take is to counter the reactioin I have to another tablet which I would die if I did not take. As yet there is no alternative for this medication so I HAVE to take an extra drug, which I really dont want to. What I am saying, is where do we draw the line? I am not entirely against a nut ban, but it only protects them at school. In order to live out in the world, they need more than taht. I was walking up our local church path yesterday and the squirrels had been chomping at the hazelnuts, there were nut shells all over the floor. Would that be a hazard? The point I am trying to make is that whether there has to be a ban or not, the school SHOULD have made everyone aware of the ban and why such a ban was in place.
Cheers, Lcuy