BS: Ballad Constancies

Subject: Ballad Constancies
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 01:50 PM

The idea for this thread came out of avoiding creeping into the one aspect of certain regularites in ballads (in particular the 2 brothers ballads of which there are about a zillion versions). I remember reading somewhere something about one of the murder ballads I know, about how there are several versions of this song but you can always recognize it as a variant if it contains the specific lie about being bloody not because of having just bludgeoned your sweetheart to avoid marrying her, but because of a nosebleed. Apparently there is only one murderer of song who thought of that particular story. I can think of another one (only one) where one son goes through all kinds of lies to Mom before admitting to fratricide. But in many many MANY ghost/murder ballads, the dead person rises from the grave after a year, or a year and a day, either because of someone mourning or performing certain rituals. I particularly liked the one who "put on small hoppers and hopped both far and near, till she hopped the small birds right off the briars and her true love out of his grave" - what in tarnation are hoppers? High-heeled shoes? (That is from one version of 2 brothers not mentioned in the 2 brothers thread.)

Anyway, I was wondering about other regularities; for instance, I know several murder ballads where boy kills girl to avoid marrying her (as in, they HAD to get married now). In several of these, but not all, the father has already told the son that "money will set you free if ever you murder that dear little girl" but in others, it wasn't set up by the father. Can you think of which had the foresighted near-papa-in-law? In many, the woman's name is mentioned, and in fewer, the man's name too. Why do you think that is? We know Little Sadie was blown down, but who knows that the killer's name was Lee? What about Polly Von? Laurie Foster we know was Tom Dooley, but what about Poor Ellen Smith, and so on?

Anyway, this is really a BS thread, I have no real questions, I was just wondering what regularities y'all had noticed or researched...

Subject: RE: BS: Ballad Constancies
From: Lena
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 11:58 AM

I wish I could add some contribution,but my knowledge of ballads is not that broad. Just to tell you that this is a great thread. Some researchers have tried to analize parallels and constancies among myths and ballads is completely different cultures to find out what that is all about. Looks like all legends are ONE.

Subject: RE: BS: Ballad Constancies
From: MMario
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 12:27 PM

This gets interesting, as there are songs that (to me) appear totally unrelated that are actually related and have verified documented trails that lead step by step from one to another, yet there are other pairs of songs which appear to be very closely related (again, to me, having a great many lyrics etc in common) which the experts tell us are NOT related. 'tis a puzzlement.

Subject: RE: BS: Ballad Constancies
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 12:39 PM

It is my understanding that the prefix BS is supposed to be used for threads that are NOT about music. But I can't blame you for not knowing that, because trying to enforce any consistency around here is like trying to nail Jell-O to a tree.

Subject: RE: BS: Ballad Constancies
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 12:40 PM

Fascinating stuff, here, Mrzz! I'll bet Bruce O. will have a lot to say. I don't know from beans about ballads, but my friend who does, says:

Lots of times, when the ballads came across the ocean from England to the New World, some of the words where changed to better fit with New World geography, ethics, mores, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Ballad Constancies
From: Kim C
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 12:43 PM

Well, there are several love ballads of the "broken token" variety... man goes off to sea/war/longhunting/whatever for three/five/seven years, comes back to find sweetheart doesn't recognize him till he pulls out the "token," usually a ring or a pendant or some kind of mojo/good luck charm, then she knows it's him.

Twenty gazillion versions of woman running off with gypsies.

Many, many lover's ghost ballads. One of my faves is "The Nightingale," where the girl's parents have the boy pressed into service because he isn't good enough for her. Ship wrecks, he dies, ghost comes to tell her what happens. Or else lover is murdered by girl's brothers, or some such. I guess these are sort of murder ballads, too, in a way.

I like night visiting songs: who's that at my window? Tis I, tis I, arise and let me in. Very romantic!

Murder ballads? Well, I'm leaving to get a haircut in five minutes. I may have to come back to this.

Subject: RE: BS: Ballad Constancies
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 04:46 PM

As to the "small hoppers", I remember seeing somewhere within the last forty-five years that this is thought to be a corruption, and that the original may have referred to a harp. Thus, she harped the birds out of the trees, etc. I don't have any idea where I saw this, or what degree of authenticity to attach to it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Ballad Constancies
From: MMario
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 05:32 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Ballad Constancies
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 10:25 PM

The "constancies" you mention are actually called "motifs". The main list of those was set up by the folklorist, Stith Thompsom (as I recall, anyhow). Put his name in a search engine and I'm certain you'll find many hits.

Art Thieme