BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce

Subject: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM

I previously posted that I thought the truce might last perhaps 12 months. I thought that Hamas might pretend to play well with others while they rearmed and re-fortified. I was wrong. They killed one Israeli soldier, wounded 3 others, breaking the truce within a week..

Israel has retaliated, and, it appears will retaliate for each breach. No mulligans this time 'round. (For you non-golfers, a mulligan is the equivalent of a free pass or a free shot.)

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:49 PM

So far the BBC has just reported this afternoon (their onsite Chief) that they don't know yet weither or not the device that exploded was newly placed or left over. Please wait before you jump the gun.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:49 PM

I should say that like you the Israeli's didn't wait to find that out either.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:58 PM

"The incident near the border was the first deadly attack carried out by Palestinian militants since a cease-fire went into effect in the coastal strip 10 days ago."

This from Haaretz, your basic Israel opposition newspaper.

Perhaps the BBC isn't the be-all, end-all of reporting!

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:52 PM

Over and over and over again- a people in despair, frustrated and without hope, is fertile ground for anarchy, terrorism and suicidal revenge. Israeli's occupation and scorched earth policies guarantee the rise of more groups like Hamas, who have nothing left to lose but their lives.
History will condemn the Israelis for their own brand of genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:10 PM

"The incident near the border was the first deadly attack carried out by Palestinian militants since a cease-fire went into effect in the coastal strip 10 days ago." This from Haaretz, your basic Israel opposition newspaper.

What Haaretz wrote there would be quite compatible with it being u known whether the bomb had been placed prior to the ceasefire.

In any case if it were all post ceasefire, that wouldn't necessarily indicate that Hamas was breaking the ceasefire. After all the most deadly bomb explosion in the Irish troubles took place at Omagh after the ceasefire was in operation; fortunately the British government didn't respond to it as an IRA act - which it wasn't.

I note that the Israeli government did not hesitate in order to investigate these kind of considerations before carrying out a reprisal attack.

Moreover before this bomb Israel had already broken the ceasefire on several occasions according to this Press Association report :

"In the days immediately following the ceasefire there was shelling by Israeli gunboats and some gunfire along the border - including the killing of two men Palestinian officials identified as farmers - but there were no serious clashes."

Could it possibly be that the expression "no serious clashes" means the only deaths or injuries incurred were Palestinian farmers and suchlike?

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: pdq
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:17 PM

The northern part of Africa is regarded as The Arab World by its inhabitants. The Arab World has about 340 million people, the same as the United States and Canada combined.

The semi-official Israeli total for Gaza is about 1 million residents. They are 99.4% Arab. Nothing special, just Arabs. Arabs claim 21 countries (Israel does not exist to these people...they call the area Palestine, a Moslem country).

The best thing that can happen is for the 1 million unhappy Arabs to go some place else. They have at least 20 Arab-speaking countries to choose from. Israel ain't going away any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:21 PM

I think you have it wrong John!

Hamas,a week ago, said it would stop its military operations for a week to give the Israelis time to pull out.However,it also said that the military and economic blockade of this city of around a million and a half residents was intolerable and if the blockade was not lifted military operations would resume at the end of this period.
.
During the past week there have been Israeli flyovers above Gaza and the blockade has not been lifted.

Apparently, the Israelis will not even allow a bag of cement into the city and is also maintaining its naval blockade firing even at the very smallest of fishing craft a few hundred metres of the Gaza beach.

Despite all its massive military superiority Israel cannot bend the Palestinians to its will.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:30 PM

"Nothing special, just Arabs."

That says it all. "Nothing special, just Arabs."

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:31 PM

If only it was that easy for them to "go somewhere else", pdq! I don't think it's easy at all for most of them to do so. If it was, they'd go.

Too bad all the people in your state couldn't get a similar reason to also want to "go somewhere else". Perhaps some day the Chinese will militarly occupy the areas all around it, seal it off from the outside world with their armed forces, and you will have a chance to contemplate such a moving option yourself...and see how you feel about it.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:33 PM

Surely the vehicle that suffered the explosion was a Landrover. Why is even the BBC calling it a Jeep?

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:37 PM

"Arab" as it is used today simply means someone who speaks Arabic. There is no such thing as "just an Arab" any more than there is such a thing as "just an English speaker". To suggest that just because people have the Arabic language in common means that there aren't any different ethnic groups or cultures within the category of people who speak Arabic is a pretty racist thing to suggest. The Palestinians have their own culture and form their own ethnic group, which is not the same as all other people in the world who speak Arabic. There are many, many different cultures and ethnic groups among the people in the world who speak Arabic. The idea that an entire group of people ought to be removed from their place of origin and moved somewhere else just because they speak the same language as those in the area to which they would be moved is a profoundly racist idea.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM

I don't think pdq's statement about "Arabs" is the result of what can be precisely termed "racism", Carol. I think it's more the result of narrow-minded arrogance, thinking in vague stereotypes about people one knows little about, having a grand sense of entitlement, and being just plain culturally ignorant. ;-) To use the word "racism" to specially label such an attitude is to overlook the essential banality and commonness of it and clothe it in more portentious terms than it really deserves...

But I say that with a certain deapan humour. You can call it "racism" if you want, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: pdq
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:46 PM

Here is a map...(you might want to mute your sound do to a strident advertisement):


                                           puts things in perspective

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:57 PM

...the result of narrow-minded arrogance, thinking in vague stereotypes about people one knows little about, having a grand sense of entitlement, and being just plain culturally ignorant.

I think that sums up most racism rather well.
.................................................

Do we take it that pdq's solution to the difficulties in Northern Ireland would have been to ship all the Catholics off to other English speaking places such as Australia, the United States, and Jamaica?

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:02 PM

How do those million and a half Gazans go "somewhere else", pdq? And why ought they to? And how would you go about it if you were one of them?

Remember how a large boatload of European Jews tried to go "somewhere else" in 1939? No one would take them either. Similar problem, but a different powerless victim, that's all.

I'll tell you who causes these problems. An aggressive, ruthless political/military power that is bent upon land robbery and imperial conquest causes these problems. It can even be a political/military power built by the direct descendants of a former lot of victims of such a policy.....and it frequently is.

One lot of really bad political karma tends to eventually deliver another lot of the same, but sometimes in a completely different location.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:06 PM

So, pdq, the Arabs should just LEAVE their homes, property, belongings, and 'go' somewhere?????? I think NOT

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: pdq
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:06 PM

This discussion is about Gaza, the Jews and the Arabs. It ain't about me.

Those who try to turn it in to a discussion about me can shove it.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:14 PM

The discussion isn't about pdq. But racist remarks and racist suggestions should not be allowed to pass without comment.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:15 PM

No, I wasn't trying to, but YOU suggested that the Arabs in Gaza should just pack up and move.....Look, Israel will NEVER accept a one state solution because they KNOW they will be outnumbered by the Palestinians.

The entire state of Israel is an Artifical Creation of the British Government...Balfour Declaration, 1948. RELIGIOUS Jews are NOT Zionists, and do NOT approve of all this stuff. Religous Jews believe that God will create Zion in His Own Time, and it is NOT now....

Meanwhile, Home is HOME....and nobody is moving out. Well, according to THIS, maybe the Jews are....

"Maariv newspaper reported that approximately a quarter of the Israeli population was considering emigration.



Almost half of the country's young people were thinking of leaving the country, the report said. Their reasons included dissatisfaction with the government, the education system, a lack of confidence in the political ruling class and concern over the security situation. "

http://stlouis.ujcfedweb.org/page.aspx?id=144274

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:15 PM

My city (in Canada) has a colony of displaced Palestinians, who managed to emigrate because they had special skills (medicine, engineering, construction, etc.) and/or money. The average Ibrahim without specialized schooling need not bother to apply. Probably only 2% of Palestinians would be able to get landed status.

The same is true of most other countries.
And in the process their culture is lost.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:19 PM

It's a false dichotomy to say the Jews and the Arabs, since there are Jews who are Arabs. Arabs are just people who speak Arabic. The "Arab world" simply refers to the part of the world in which the Arabic language predominates. The term Arab doesn't have anything whatever to do with anyone's religion or any other characteristic besides language. Although I know it is convenient to try to lump all Arabic speakers into one big generic group when one is trying to justify theft.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:25 PM

AND the Jews WERE 'Arabs' to being with!!!! Let's all blame Abraham for taking a 2nd wife, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: pdq
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:27 PM

Jews had a special cultural heritage in parts of Russia for many years. They still had to move.

The Jews in Persia, Germany and Spain each had some unique cultural heritage that was lost when they were forced to leave.

About 5 million Jews have managed to migrate to Israel. The 1 million unhappy Arabs who have elected a terrorist group to lead them in Gaza should think about either changing to peaceful people or moving to another Arab country. They have 20 such countries to choose from.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:32 PM

Go read this article....from 2003... and tell me it's not tragic. 2003!!! It's worse now, and the United States doesn't even GET this news.....we are supposed to just blindly support Israel, the perpetual Underdog....

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:36 PM

"The phenomenon is seemingly clear-cut: More young, educated "Russians" are emigrating from Israel in search of a better future in western countries and in Russia than native-born Israelis. In a well-functioning country, such a phenomenon and its ramifications would concern the decision makers and would oblige them to immediately treat the problem at its source. But not in Israel."

http://www.idi.org.il/sites/english/OpEds/Pages/EmigrationfromIsrael.aspx

Seemingly, the Russian youth don't want to be in Israel either!

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:39 PM

The Palestinians are not the people who forced the Jews to leave Russia, Germany, Persia, or Spain. The suggestion that the Palestinians have an obligation to leave or to submit themselves to being subjugated by the government of Israel and give up their rights as human beings as payment for something that was done to Jews by other people has no legitimacy whatever. The Palestinians have a right to remain where they are with the same rights to freedom and equality as anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 07:04 PM

Sorcha says that Israel is an artificial creation of the British government. If that is true (it isn't) then Jordan is an artificial creation of the British, as is Pakistan. Bangledesh is an artificial creation, having seceded from Pakistan. Azerbaijan was created from the Muslim part Armenia. There are many countries that weren't always countries which are today, but no one questions their legitimacy.

Only Israel, which was a country, and has always had a Jewish presence since early historic times is deemed illegal or artificial, in spite of being adopted by the United Nations. Several countries actually have the word Islamic in their name...Mauritania, Iran, Iraq (at least during the time of SH), Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Egypt and Syria once were in a loose federation, the United Arab Republic. But Israel can't be Jewish. How hypocritical!

Israel will never accept a single state solution for obvious reasons. Despite the 60 Minutes Jeremiahad it is possible for a two state solution. Israel will need to get a lot tougher on the settlers, but those who stay must then consider themselves under the just laws of a Palestinian state.

The real sticking point for Israel is going to be Jerusalem. As I have said before, when Jordan controlled Jerusalem, Jews were denied access to holy sites. That will not fly again.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: bubblyrat
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 07:22 PM

The point that many of you seem to be missing, and which the totally biased BBC signally fail to mention (every time !!), is that the Israelis, only a few short years ago, offered to accede to ALL ,yes ALL, of the Palestinians' demands and conditions----happily and willingly. And who said "NO" ???? Why, it was Yasser Arafat, PLO leader & International Terrorist Extraordinaire. Because all the Palestinians care about is eradicating Israel,and killing all the Jews .How sad !!!

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 07:22 PM

The video provided by Palestinians to ABC News this evening clearly shows an ambush of a jeep-like military vehicle, with a massive explosion followed by small arms fire.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Nickhere
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM

pdq "Jews had a special cultural heritage in parts of Russia for many years. They still had to move.
The Jews in Persia, Germany and Spain each had some unique cultural heritage that was lost when they were forced to leave"

You're right pdq. But doesn't that only reinforce the point? The Jews who left the above mentioned places, losing their cultures etc., did so because they were persecuted. Then you go suggesting the same thing for palestinians??? Don't you see the implications of your parallel?

I suggest visiting the Maisel (if I remember correctly, it was one of a group of 3 or 4 near each other) synagogue in Prague before suggesting any 'peoples' are just shoved aside. The Nazis set it up as a museum to "A Vanished People" as they called it, and allowed a committee of local Jews collect there artifacts important to Jewish culture from all over the wider region. Ironically this was to ensure the preservation of these items at a time when they were being systematically pilfered and destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:16 PM

Israel will never accept a single state solution for obvious reasons.

A single state solution in which Eretz Israel/Palestine would continue to be the Jewish Homeland, but in which there was not any built-in guarantee of a permanent Jewish majority, offers the best hope for the longterm wellbeing and security of all the communities with a claim on that territory - perhaps most especially the Jewish community. The present situation in which Israel is immeasurably stronger than its neighbours is hardly likely to continue for that long.

No one questions the special position of Mormonism in Utah, and yet Mormons make up only just over half the population, with no guarantee that this will always be the case. It is hard to imagine that their situation would be too rosy if in the 19th century they had been of a mind to insist on their independent national status, and in a position to maintain that in arms for a period, subordinating or expelling non-Mormons.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:28 PM

Few if any Mormons live in Palestine, and if they tried to proselytize they might not live anywhere. If Muslims find it hard to live with other sects of Muslims, how much worse it will be for Jews living within a Muslim majority. Also, Lebanon had a workable government which included Christians and Muslims (but no Jews) from its founding until Fatah and other Palestinian groups took over the south of the country, set up their state within a state, and harassed Israel in the 1970s. Lebanon has not been the same since. I do not see Israel acceding to a one state solution. Not in any time we'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 09:09 PM

"...if in the 19th century they had been of a mind to insist on their independent national status" of course meant, in Utah. (And Mormons seem pretty keen on proselytising, hence the guys in suits that go round knocking on people's doors.)

The term "state" is of course ambiguous. There's the normal meaning, and the meaning you've got in America, which might even offer a possible model.

A "two state/one country" federal solution in which there was a Jewish majority state, with a sizeable non-Jewish minority,and a non-Jewish state with a sizeable Jewish minority might well be a more viable solution than anything else. With Jerusalem as a kind of District of Columbia, not in either state, but capital of the whole country.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 10:03 PM

McGrath, I don't see a federal solution as working. It is in realty a single state solution when the Arab/Muslim population of the Jewish part becomes a majority and decides it is better to have a single Palestine with an Arab majority. The force of history is anti-federation: Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia and the USSR for example.

Jews would then be in the position they were in prior to 1948, subject to anti-Jewish laws, perhaps ghettos and loss of religious freedom in the Arab world...perhaps the world at large.

I can visualize an economic union between Israel (a Jewish country) and Palestine (an Arab Muslim country) if Palestinian leaders would decide to work toward that end. Jews, of course, would have to give up settlements under Israeli protection. Those Jews remaining in Palestine would have to live, as I said above, under Palestine law. In my opinion Palestine should make provision for the citizenship and religious rights of Jews, as the converse is in Israel.

I know many Jews who were born in various Muslim countries, Lebanon, Palestine (they're in their sixties and seventies), Egypt, Iraq, and Turkey. Jews largely flourished in pre-Khomeini Iran. Some would really like to return someday, although they know they won't.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 11:13 PM

Israel was not willing to accede to any of the Palestinians' demands. They were not willing to end the occupation of the West Bank, and Gaza, and the land that they said they might consider letting the Palestinians keep (they never actually said what the final borders would be under their plan) was divided up into little bantustans that were isolated from each other, and that the Palestinians had to go through interminable numbers of checkpoints just to travel from one to the other.

And it was Ehud Barak who stopped participating in the negotiations (not Arafat), because he had to campaign for the upcoming election. Netanyahu didn't want anything to do with the negotiations, so that was the end of them. Arafat wanted them to continue.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 12:23 AM

Hamas in action, huh?

And the usuals making excuses for Hamas breaking the truce yet again. Fuck.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 01:23 AM

Jimmy Carter being interviewed on NPR...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99875313

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 01:23 AM

Oops. I meant to put that in the Jimmy Carter thread.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 05:46 AM

EU envoy blames Hama for Gaza destruction.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7851545.stm

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 08:02 AM

I know many Jews who were born in various Muslim countries, Lebanon, Palestine (they're in their sixties and seventies), Egypt, Iraq, and Turkey. Jews largely flourished in pre-Khomeini Iran. Some would really like to return someday, although they know they won't.

My imnpression is that making it possible for such people and their children to do so, and seeking to reestablish the historic Jewish communities in such countries is not seen by the Israeli authoriries as either a priority, or even as desirable. It seems quite possible that putting it on the table as a negotiating goal might be a very positive step.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 08:40 AM

Here we go again; yet another attempt to justify the genocide being perpetrated by Israel, coming, of course, from America – a country with a far from illustrious history of supporting fascist regimes.

Loss of life is always to be regretted but the death of one combatant should be seen in the context of the hundreds of innocent civilians slaughtered by the Israeli army.

Perhaps it would be pertinent to remember that the state of Israel was, itself, born from terrorist activity and is still illegally occupying large tracts of land that it has no right to.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 08:58 AM

If you are referring to my post, it is about the EU not US envoy, though they have confusingly similar names.
The EU is the main donor to the Palestinians.
He says Hamas bore "overwhelming responsibility."

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 09:06 AM

No, I was referring to the original post.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 09:23 AM

aye and ther's people that are memebers of mudcat that back israel in no matter what they do.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:02 AM

Not on this one, Goatfell. I recognize that Hamas started it and they are gonna pay heavily for their stupidity--rather, the Palestinian people will. Where was your voice of protest when Hamas started the shit yet again? YOU were srtrangely quiet, you and your ilk. Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:08 AM

…the most deadly bomb explosion in the Irish troubles took place at Omagh after the ceasefire was in operation; fortunately the British government didn't respond to it as an IRA act - which it wasn't." – MGOH

Who was responsible for the Omagh Bomb then Kevin if not the IRA??? I mean there are a few of them aren't there. You have the "Official" IRA, the ones who had the good sense to stay out of "The Troubles". You have the "Provisional" IRA, the ones who decided to get stuck in and managed to murder around 2500 of the very people they said they were "protecting". You have the "Real" IRA who actually did claim responsibility for the Omagh bomb, which sort of has me mystified as to why you would say that it had nothing to do with the IRA. Then finally last but by no means least you have the "Continuity" IRA. Of that lot Kevin only two have renounced violence, disarmed and disbanded.

"The Palestinians have their own culture and form their own ethnic group" – Carol C

Utter crap the term Palestine was only brought into prominence about 80 years ago. Tell me what "ethnic" group comes from Palestine – Tell me even what Palestine is? I know what it was and I know how the name came into being – you obviously don't. What is this Palestinian culture and where did it come from? The "Palestinians" were invented/created by Yasser Arafat as a vehicle for making money in the early 1970's – It's a thing that Tosser Arafat's family have a gift for, exploiting the poor and helpless in order to accumulate wealth. As someone on this thread asked – Wonder what did happen to Arafat's $300,000,000.

"The entire state of Israel is an Artifical Creation of the British Government...Balfour Declaration, 1948." – Sorcha

I would advise you Sorcha to go away and do some reading, get your facts straight then come back and retract that complete and utter fabrication. If you do you will find no mention of "Israel" from 1920 until the time that the Jewish Settlers in Palestine declared their country of Israel and independent state in 1948 – that Sorcha was AFTER the British left – creation of the British Government indeed, the Mandated territory of Palestine was the creation of the League of Nations – not the British Government. The Arabs – yes "just Arabs" – refused a single state solution for Palestine from 1920 until 1936 by demonstrating clearly that could not live peacefully with their Jewish neighbours. In 1937, during the Great Arab Revolt, the Peel Commission proposed a two-state solution. That two-state solution was taken up by the United Nations and was proposed in 1947 towards the end of the old League of Nations Mandate. The Israelis accepted the plan but the Arabs – yes those not so special just Arabs again – rejected the proposal.

"So, pdq, the Arabs should just LEAVE their homes, property, belongings, and 'go' somewhere?????? I think NOT" – Sorcha

Well that was the OK thing to do as far as 820,000 Jews were concerned after those Arabs lost their war in 1948 Sorcha. You see having failed to wade in Jewish blood and drive the Jews into the sea while conquering Israel; they deported 820,000 Jews from Arab countries that they had lived in peacefully for centuries. No choice was involved Sorcha they got 24 hours if they were lucky, had all their money and possessions taken from them and were booted out. The only place for most to go to was – yep you've got it in one – Israel. Now when they arrived in Israel they were made welcome and integrated into society, there was no fencing them up in camps and keeping them in poverty to suit the political agendas of others.

Bit different for the Arabs of the former Palestine wasn't it Sorcha. Because at the end of the 1948 war, Palestine had ceased to exist hadn't it? You had the Jewish section of Palestine according to the UN plan of 1947 which was now called Israel, but what about the "Arab" parts of Palestine?? Well Egypt had invaded and taken the bit known as Gaza, while Jordan had invaded and taken the bit known now as the West Bank. Did the Arabs of Egypt and Jordan make the Arabs of Palestine welcome on let's face it was their own land – Hell as like they crammed them into refugee camps – now you tell me Sorcha just how the hell do you become a refugee in your own country??

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM

"I recognize that Hamas started it and they are gonna pay heavily for their stupidity--rather, the Palestinian people will. "

Perhaps your recognition is a little distorted, Peace.

The Jewish UK MP and holocaust survivor, Gerald Kauffman, condemned Israel for "acting like Nazis" and branded them "mass murderers and war criminals". He went on to add:

"My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count."

Now YOU have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:43 AM

Well leveller, it seems that there are many in the Arab world who would disagree with the "Jewish UK MP" whom you cite.

Arab Leaders, Civilians Blame Hamas for Gaza Violence

Arab leaders such as Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak as well as other public figures continue to condemn Hamas for the violence in Gaza. They have issued statements stating that maintaining the truce could have helped the Palestinians avoid the Israeli raids and blame Hamas as fully responsible for the situation. Meanwhile Israel continues its defensive operations in order to stop Iran-backed Hamas from firing thousands of rockets, missiles and mortars on Israeli civilians.

If you go the site http://newsblaze.com/story/20090110065320zzzz.nb/topstory.html you can read what Arabs from Egypt, the Palestinian Territories, Iran, Tunisia and Saudi Arabia have to say on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: I was wrong about the latest Gaza truce
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:45 AM

Looks like everyone's gonna have a nice day except the Israelis and Palestinians.