Subject: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: reggie miles Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:02 AM We created him, armed him, set him up, and let him go merry way. Isn't he the monster of our creation? Just like Dr. Frankenstein was ultimately responsible for the monster of his creation. Aren't we really the responsible ones for meddling, peddling influence where we had no business doing so. Isn't the region just reaping that which we sowed? Doesn't that make us the evil empire? Now we despise and demonize the fruits of our labors in arms sales and poor judgement. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Troll Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:22 AM I don't think we created Saddam Hussein but I do know that we aided him in his war against Iran. If he was thus our creation, then we are responsible in some wise for his depredations and we have attempted to make amends by removing him from power. There is not much more that we can do at this time. As far as our having no business in the Middle East, we must at all times look to our national security. A US presence in the Middle East is essential for strategic as well as economic reasons and anyone who thinks differently needs to study global politics. As far as "Now we despise and demonize the fruits of our labors in arms sales and poor judgement.", goes, the things that Saddam Hussein has done to his own people is worthy of our despite and he has done a better job of demonizing himself than we ever could. troll |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:34 AM Yes, Reggie, I'm afraid that is the case. You don't have to submit to it, though. Regime change begins at home. - LH |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Martha Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:19 AM Yes, you are the Evil Empire. But not because you created Saddam Hussein, but because you created George W. Bush. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: DougR Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:36 AM Horse pucky! DougR |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Guest. Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:36 AM Yes. Everything the people who control your country believe in is purely for their own selfish interests. Right wing values are definately the root of evil. There is not difference between financial power over and military control of people. The objective and the ends are just the same. You dictators are your corporate controllers. I hate Bush annd what he stands for but really, he is just a puppet. I believe more strongly than ever that United States people were involved in the organisation of Sept 11th. It is just part of the big plan that is now unfolding. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: gnu Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:11 AM Odd... I was reading this thread while I listen to to the TV... Iraqi's in Baghdad cheering the troops and destroying images of Saddam. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: harvey andrews Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:32 AM "The King is dead. Long live the King" It's called survival Gnu. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: gnu Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:50 AM Point well made. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:54 AM All empires are evil empires sooner or later. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: mooman Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:58 AM And to add to what McGrath said all empires rise and eventually fall. moo |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:42 AM At least we prevented Saddam from starting his empire. Food for thought? One missile fired at Israel would have started the third world war. Pan Arabic nationalism fired by the likes of Saddam, would have destabilised the entire world. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Gervase Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:56 AM Bit premature, aren't we, Guest? Wait and see... |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: InOBU Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:43 AM We are not the evil empire, the proof is found in the post about the Victory Song for the USA posted above... here is a taste which shows that we are NOT the evil empire... The crowds that cheered for Sadam now cheer for our Bush You see that they love us, for cheering is the proof They cheered their dictator before his armed ranks But we came in peace in our humvees and tanks Larry ;-) |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Rapparee Date: 09 Apr 03 - 08:51 AM Seems to me that there is a Dark Spot in most of humanity.... |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 09 Apr 03 - 08:58 AM As stated above, I guess we all have our dark spots. Whether the US is the evil empire or not is a question I can't answer. They have however aided people such as Saddam and Bin Ladin who were known to be nasty. I'm comming more and more to the conclusion that the idea from the bible "as you sow, so shall you reap" is in fact true. Jon |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:46 AM Although it is easy to bash the US as an "evil empire" these days, there are many wise critics who propose quite convincingly that the US gov't, (like all other national gov'ts), are only puppets dancing to the tune of the ever-more-powerful and tyrannical multinational corporations. IMO this position begs our scrutiny, because if it is true (and I believe it is), then we are playing right into their hands by continuing to be misled and focus our attention/protests on the government pawns, and not the "evil emporers" themselves. These corporate "emporers" have been very busy in recent years putting immense pressure on governments to pass multinational "Agreements" making their business practices and methods above and beyond both the scrutiny/influence of voters and the rule of law, international and otherwise. Capitalism and the hoarding of wealth - profitmaking at any human/environmental cost - is their Bible and their sole purpose. " "The more freedom is extended to business, the more prisons have to be built for those who suffer from that business." Eduardo Galleano Who/what are the institutions of economic globalization? According to veteran activist Starhawk, they are: NAFTA -- North American Free Trade Agreement FTAA -- Free Trade Area of the Americas G8 -- the G8 are the eight most powerful, industrialized nations: The U.S., Canada, Great Britain, Germany, Italy, France, Japan, and Russia. In their summits, they create policies and set agendas that affect everything from the WTO to the U.N. WTO -- The World Trade Organization (nothing to do with the Twin Towers) World Bank/IMF -- (International Monetary Fund) For more information on these institutions and their tyrannical policies which threaten human rights, environmental protection and national sovereignty all over the globe, click here And to those who are squeamish about Starhawk's "new-age" affiliations, and would discredit her work on that basis, I counter that her "religious" views do not detract in the least from the work she does for human rights/environmental protection. Seems to me that the first step in dealing with the "evil empire" must surely be to recognize exactly what it is - and what it is not. IMO, GW Bush is small fry indeed compared to these monstrous and powerful sharks (no offense to sharks intended). daylia |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:24 AM Daylia, I believe you have much of the drive in the world right there. In a way, it sort of reminds me of a chat with my (sadly late) manager when I worked for Hotpoint. He told me our "purpose" was to make money for the shareholders and like it or not, that was how the buisenness world works. The unfortunate side effect to this is that those who invest are playing a money game and are more interested in how their investments are doing than human concerns. In many cases, I suspect they are too distant from the latter to care. I wish I had an answer to it all. I believe capitalism is flawed but, on the other hand believe that our in built greed will always override any socialist values. Perhaps the real question is how to change the human race to a society that cares more about the survival of all, rather than that of idividuals. I can dream and will plead guilty to being greedy myself. Jon |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Amos Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:35 AM Jon: That's a very narrow view of the business world, although it is one being promulgated in MBA training all over the world. The fact is that businesses which pursue money as the sole measure of all good generally go into a tailspin. The purpose of business is not just profit -- the proposition is meaningless, ultimately -- but profitable service. There's a universe of difference between the two paths. As for the evil empire, I'm certain "we" -- assuming you mean the people of the United States -- are not an evil empire. We do have a pretty stupid political subclass, though. A |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:41 AM Jon, IMO there's nothing wrong with wanting the very best for oneself and working to attain it, if that's what you mean by "greed". But simply taking (stealing?) and hoarding that very best for oneself at the expense of everything and everyone else - now that's a different story altogether. That story that transforms capitalist dreams into global nightmares. daylia |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Bill D Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:45 AM ah, it's a fine line to walk, isn't it? In one sense, it's good for the greatest power & influence to be held by a country/society that is relatively benign, democratic and altruistic....yet simply becoming powerful and influential tends to move a country away from those virtues.. "Power corrupts...etc." In WWI and WWII, the U.S. waited, and entered the war when we were needed and when it was clear that we were helping to repel agressors. How far we have come to this point of starting a war, just because we (that is, the powers-that-be) feel that we are the designated arbitors. It is clear that our motivation has become confused--partly sincere objection to an evil tyrant, partly cunning self-interest, partly wanting to show off and do this "because we can", partly trying to stabilize things and 'make the world safer', partly (understandable)knee-jerk reaction to 9/11.... I TRULY wonder what other countries would do if they had serious leverage and power...could we trust Lichtenstein or Suriname? There is no easy way to answer this, as there is something deep in the genetic structure of too many humans in (almost)ALL cultures that breeds competition and belligerence, even as we speak of cooperation and peace. No, I don't think we are 'evil'...yet...not like Saddam would be IF he had managed to keep Kuwait and extend HIS power...but 'evil' is a slippery concept, and too many people in the world easily slip into defining 'evil' as "anyone who has more than me and doesn't seem to want to share".....*shrug*... and as long as people's identities are defined by their clan, religion and relative place in the pecking order, 'evil' will continue to be a tennis ball, lobbed at any one you don't like or agree with.. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:51 AM Amos, 1. If you care to expand on my "narrow view" of the larger (rather than individuals trying to make a life), I'd be interested to read, as I would as a view from a shareholders angle. 2. "We". I was assuming that the 1st post was directed at the US and as such directed my answer that way. I do see the US as a big player but have no reason to believe that an American is by nature any more evil than me as an Englishman or maybe even than an an Iraqi. Probably, deep down, you would like to see life and peace for all in the same way I would. How to achieve that seems to me to be the elusive factor... Jon |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:00 AM "I'm certain "we" -- assuming you mean the people of the United States -- are not an evil empire. " True enough. But that's the normal enough situation in any empire, however evil it may be be its impact may be. I'm sure the USA as it expanded across North America was full of great goodhearted people with the best of intentions - and that's not irony on my opart. But for the Native Americans it was about as evil as any empire can be. The same kind of thing can be said about the British, the French, the Spanish, the Romans. And in most cases along with the bad things there were good aspects. But over the long run, I think its fair to say that empires destroy more than they build. And the way they can change and distort the home country is perhaps as devastating as anything. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Amos Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:25 AM Jon: I didn't mean you had a narrow view. I meant that "business is only about making money" is a narrow view. It's like saying weather is all about figuring out the temperature, or all travel is about mph. Kevin -- I don't believe the United States is an empire. I concur it has more influence on the world than any other nation. But the empires of today, for good or ill, are not those of nations but of corporate networks. Many of these were started in the US, because it has a culture which supports enterprise and innovation, generally. But they aren't the nation. A |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:52 AM The only way to combat multinational corporations is within national and international politics. Corporations have no method of oversight that can be directly managed by the people; only government has that ability. Even if the multinats are the real enemy, we have to work through government to affect them. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Beccy Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:04 PM No. (Nicely put, DougR) |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:54 PM No, you're not the evil empire, but you tend to overlook the beam in your own eye. What jars is not the absolute level of evil represented by the US (though executing mentally subnormal people who can't afford decent legal advice for crimes committes while they were minors is not much to boast about): it's the yawning gap between the US's self-righteous rhetoric and its actions around the world. Until recently, 11 September was noteworthy as the anniversary of the day when local goons recruited, armed and paid by the US, murdered the legally elected Allende and replaced him with the dictator Pinochet, subjecting Chile to almost two decades of murder and torture. That's only one of many examples of the US preaching democracy, but through its actions undermining it because of some nebulous perceived threat to its interests. Nobody in Europe except for "President" Blair and a handful of his supporters imagines that the US invasion of Iraq has been for the good of the health of the Iraqi people. But at least Chirac, stomach-turning cynic that he is, doesn't imagine that he is part of God's plan to save the world. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: duuuude Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:37 PM We may be the "evil empire", but we're still the best friggin nation on this earth. What other nation has accomplished so much in so few years of "civilization"? What other nation has at least attempted to set-up the world-wide releif programs we have? If we're evil, then I guess I'm just another evildoer. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:48 PM duuuude-What is it that we have accomplished "in so few years?" Our wonderful standard of living comes at the expense of the nations to whom we export our need for cheap maual labor. Our political power comes from the world's largest military and the willingness to use it. For every world-wide relief organization we create, we helped destroy the political system of a country that now needs our relief. I'm not saying we are the root of all evil, but we've contributed our share. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:49 PM Colonial Empires spread around the world, like the British Empire or the French and Spanish Empires, aren't the only sort. The continental United States, "sea to shining sea", is surely every bit as much an Empire as, for example, the Austrian Empire or the German Empire, or the Chinese or Russian Empires - it's just that, as was the case with those, the conquered territories incorporated were for the most part contiguous rather than overseas. That's what was surely meant by "manifest destiny"? |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:03 PM duuuude - when I read your post, an old ACDC tune started playin in my head ... "I've got big balls I've got big balls And they're such big balls Dirty big balls And he's got big balls And she's got big balls But we've got the biggest balls of them all!" Thanks! That was fun! ;) daylia |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Don Firth Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:22 PM "Horse pucky!" I love Doug's pithy, well-thought-out, point-by-point refutations. A real philosopher. Don Firth |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: ard mhacha Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:37 PM The bare faced cheek of this man having all of those Castles, and our poor Queen and her hard-up family struggling along on a few ancient piles, [and they can be bloody sore]. Ard Mhacha. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:54 PM Damn - I hope so - or can all of these folkies be wrong? Only history will answer that question and none of us will write it. For some things I am truly grateful. DougR is the most eloquent person so far - were it a contest and I be the judge - which it isn't and I'm not - Steve |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:13 PM The last line of the song inOBU quotes, "But we came in peace in our humvees and tanks" Isn't this rather oxymoronic? If we truly came in peace we wouldn't be waging war. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,pdc Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:13 PM Posted by An Pluiméir Ceolmhar: "It's the yawning gap between the US's self-righteous rhetoric and its actions around the world." That's it in an absolute nutshell. Well said! |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Forum Lurker Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:28 PM GUEST of 3:13-That's kind of the point. The song is pointing out our hypocrisy. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Greg F. Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:44 PM He's Back!!! Ex-Corporal Snortin' Norton Whitefeather Neff, fearless, ruggedleatherneck; the man who never walked away from a fight, the man who threatens people of opposing viewpoints with assault, the man who decries 'cowards' and 'wimps' and 'wusses' and 'bottom feeders' and dares them to goat it toe-to-toe... The red-blooded, two-fisted American Hero who felt so personally threatened by a couple of posts to an internet web-site that he had to run whining and crying for help to a mouth-breather & knuckle-dragger's cyber clubhouse to recruit a lynch mob of cyber-louts with ridiculous junior-high school "macho"[sic] screen names to come galloping to his rescue??? One sick puppy!- simper, fido. Hail the conquering hero! A regular Profile in Courage.Welcome back. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Bill D Date: 09 Apr 03 - 08:51 PM why do I feel like my attempt at a thoughtful, reasoned post is rather like shouting into the wind when all this noise is going on around me? *sigh*...never mind, go on with your tirades, insults, flag waving and snide remarks. I'll just sit here in the chimney corner and watch. Why, I was once ignored by the Salvation Army Band on a street corner...*wry grin* |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Amos Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:31 PM Greg: Your post is absolutely uncalled for, irrational and a disgrace. You want evil? Try this one for size. I believe you owe Steve an apology. A |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: reggie miles Date: 10 Apr 03 - 12:10 AM Okay boys and girls let's all just take a step back, inhale a deep cleansing breath and forget I ever brought this subject up. Please! I didn't want to pit us against each other personally. I wanted to know if we are responsible due to our love of da green stuff. It's a fair question. I think I read somewhere that the love of it ($ that is) is the root of all evil and here in the good ol' U.S. of A. we do a better job than most, of lusting after it. The point about multinationals seems, to me, to be spot on. I doubt, in this day and age, that any one entity could operate alone. The U.S. being the lone super power I guess they make an easy target to assign blame to, when in reality there are powerful forces all across the planet conspiring. The president as a puppet to corporations seems likely as well. Maybe that why his rhetoric rings with such emptiness. Thanks all of you for your input but before we go too much farther into this scrap with one another let's just change the subject, grab a guitar and strum a few chords or something to defuse and unlax. Do it for me. I just want us all to get along. There's already enough strife in the world. Peace, Reg |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,pdc Date: 10 Apr 03 - 12:45 AM Well, now I don't know what to say, or how to feel. I've been posting here for a couple of weeks, off and on, about how much I detest this war, and Bush, and the rah-rah hawks. I still hate the way the US went into this war, with depleted uranium shells and cluster bombs. I hate the fact that I saw a picture of a 30-day-old baby girl with shrapnel injuries. No, I don't trust Bush. Not at all. I don't think he went into this war to liberate the Iraqis; I think he has his own agenda that will show up when the war is over. But dammit. I watched the news on television tonight, with tears pouring down my cheeks as I saw Iraqi people thanking American soldiers, shaking their hands, some of them crying, tearing down the statues of Hussein, celebrating, telling their stories of what had happened to them under Hussein's rule. So -- even if the liberation of these people turns out to be a byproduct of a war fought for another reason, I am very, very glad it happened. Political persuasions aside, getting rid of Saddam Hussein is a good, good thing. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: DougR Date: 10 Apr 03 - 01:09 AM Thank you Steve; Beccy. Don was obviously disappointed that I did not write paragraphs describing what I thought about the subject, but to me, horse pucky is just that! Horse pucky. Nothing complicated about it. daylia: I'm rather disappointed to learn that you have balls! I had envisioned someone more ...well ...soft and demure. :>) DougR |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Greg F. Date: 10 Apr 03 - 07:53 AM Amos: You want assholes?CLICK HERE You want irrational? CLICK HERE You want uncalled for? CLICK HERE You want an apology? LOL!! Sod off. Best, Greg |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Amos Date: 10 Apr 03 - 08:36 AM Greg F: Thanks for pissing in the foyer. Your business how you handle the flamewar you got in to with Steve, of course, but your choice is distinctly unmannerly and crude and also, IMHO, crude and ineffective, not to add foolish. But its your business. A |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: RichM Date: 10 Apr 03 - 08:38 AM As a Canadian, what country would I prefer to have next door, other than the USA? Let me see: Russia? Iran? Iraq? Palestine? Columbia? Any African nation? China? Indonesia? Brazil? No...... Maybe Australia; Maybe Antarctica, but we're cold enough already! I'm happy to have the neighbour that's there already. |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* Date: 10 Apr 03 - 08:56 AM Doug - my balls are so soft and demure I usually can't even find them. But when it's time to rock'n roll - ah, THAT's when they come out to party! (If you're not deaf, it does take lots of balls - the bigger the better - to endure AC/DC). :) pdr - I felt exactly the same way watching the scenes from Baghdad yesterday. But will life be any easier or more peaceful for the people of Iraq in the days to come? Or will Saddam's brutal regime simply be replaced by the next US-bred-and-supported dictatorship? I surely hope not, although that is standard US foreign policy to date. Wait and see ... In the meantime, as I watched the joy on people's faces as they danced in the streets celebrating the toppling of Saddam, as I watched the Iraqis lining up to thank the handsome young - and very disciplined-looking - American soldiers (egads, was I actually feeling PROUD of my neighbours south of the border?!?) - one little boy even running up to give a soldier a kiss! - I couldn't help but think that this must be the happiest moment in most of their miserable lives. And much to my astonishment, peacenik that I am, I found myself wondering if giving them that once-in-a-lifetime moment of joy and hope made it all worthwhile. I guess the jury's still out on that one ... the millions of Iraqis who are dead, diseased, starving, and maimed as a result of this and the first Gulf War (and the decade of bombing and sanctions in between) won't get a vote anyway. :( Peace - daylia |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: DougR Date: 10 Apr 03 - 09:05 AM daylia: AC/DC? Okie dokie. "To Each His Own" (does this belong in the Music section? DougR |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* Date: 10 Apr 03 - 09:50 AM AC/DC in the "Music" section, Doug? But there's such a fine line between music and noise, and AC/DC doesn't "toe" it very well, imo. They do provide a few "measures" (he he!) of relief for those of us needing to release the pent-up stores of venom we accumulate on this particularly trying section of the "Highway to Hell" we've been riding of late! Now, if I can just refrain from stuffing my ears with big BIG cotton balls before I turn them on ... :) daylia |
Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,pdc Date: 10 Apr 03 - 11:28 AM HEY!! I've just made an important breakthrough! Read this!! I've been following this thread, and realize now exactly what causes all the problems that this and other war threads discuss. Testosterone!! There's too much of that stuff around. |