BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters

Subject: BS: Separate Realities of Bush/Kerry Support
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:54 PM

From The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Supporters, a report from the PROGRAM ON INTERNATIONAL POLICY ATTITUDES (PIPA), a joint program of the Center on Policy Attitudes and the Center for International and Security Studies at the University of Maryland:

Key Findings:

1. Iraq, WMD, and al Qaeda
A large majority of Bush supporters believe that before the war Iraq had weapons of mass destruction or a major program for building them. A substantial majority of Bush supporters assume that most experts believe Iraq had WMD and that this was the conclusion of the recently released report by Charles Duelfer. A large majority of Bush supporters believes that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda and that clear evidence of this support has been found. A large majority believes that most experts also have this view, and a substantial majority believe that this was the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission. Large majorities of Kerry supporters believe the opposite on all these points.

2. What the Bush Administration is Saying about Pre-War Iraq
Large majorities of Bush and Kerry supporters agree that the Bush administration is saying that Iraq had WMD and was providing substantial support to al Qaeda. In regard to WMD, these majorities are growing.

3. The Decision to Go to War
Majorities of Bush supporters and Kerry supporters agree that if Iraq did not have WMD or was not providing support to al Qaeda, the US should not have gone to war with Iraq.

4. World Public Opinion on the Iraq War and George Bush's Reelection
Only three in ten Bush supporters believe that the majority of people in the world oppose the US going to war with Iraq, while an overwhelming majority of Kerry supporters have this view. A majority of Bush supporters assume that the majority of people in the world would like to see Bush reelected, while a large majority of Kerry supporters believe the opposite. Bush supporters also lean toward overestimating support in Islamic countries for US-led efforts to fight terrorism, while Kerry supporters do not.

5. Candidates' Foreign Policy Positions
Majorities of Bush supporters misperceive his positions on a range of foreign policy issues. In particular they assume he supports multilateral approaches and addressing global warming when he has taken strong contrary positions on issues such as the International Criminal court and the Kyoto Agreement. A majority of Kerry supporters have accurate perceptions of Kerry positions on the same issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush/Kerry Support
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:03 PM

What an interesting analysis!! Thanks, Jim.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 06:56 PM

In other words: Bush supporters live in a fantasy world while Kerry supporters know what the hell is going on. Have I got that about right?

I wish that this analysis made me feel *any* more confident that the American electorate will make the obviously correct choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 07:11 PM

Interesting but scary.

I'm used to the idea that supporters of different parties have different priorities, and udeas anbout what needs to be done, and have different interpretations of the facts. That's what politics is about.

But the idea that the supporters of one party are out of touch with reality in this kind of way is really frightening. Especially when it's quite on the cards that they are going to hold on to power for the next chunk of history - and when the country involved isn't some quaint little backwater, but the effective ruler of the whole planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 07:31 PM

"In other words: Bush supporters live in a fantasy world while Kerry supporters know what the hell is going on. Have I got that about right?"

As far as the perceptions referred to in the study go, you've got it right.
I feel uncomfortable saying that because it sounds so bloody smug, but I've noticed here on so many of our rants that you can cite the facts repeatedly to the true believers and it has no effect. That's one reason I'm becoming a cranky -- or crankier -- old asshole.

Steven Kull, the program director is quoted in today's edition of our local (pro-Bush) paper:

"To support the president and to accept that he took the United Stated to war based on mistaken assumptions is difficult to bear, especially in light of the continuing costs in terms of lives and money" Kull said.

"Apparently, to avoid cognitive dissonance, Bush supporters suppress awareness of unsettling information."

I noticed in one of the debates when Bush was talking about the Iraq war he said that we were attacked and he had to defend the country. Kerry had to remind him that it was not Iraq that attacked us. And Cheney has repeatedly connected 9/11 and Iraq. So it's not just unaided "cognitive dissonance;" the administration is encouraging these misperceptions.

I found this a few days ago, before the report came out & thought it was right on: http://cagle.slate.msn.com/politicalcartoons/pccartoons/archives/plante.asp?Action=GetImage
------------------------------------------------------------------------
you may have to go to 10/08/04 on the drop-down menu after you get there.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 07:33 PM

I don't think that should be a surprise. As above, so below--why would someone whop was IN touch with reality support Bush?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: pdq
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 10:08 PM

Conservatives are taller, better looking, make more money, are better educated, have better teeth, are less likely to have bad breath, acne or the heartbreak of psoriasis. Their wives shave their armpits, bathe more often, smell better and make love more often. Their children are better students, less likely to have behavioral problems or get pregnant at 15. Conservatives also live longer because they don't worry about things they can't control.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 10:18 PM

What do conservatives have to do with Bush supporters?

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: pdq
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 10:25 PM

Good question, Clint. I'll have to get back with ya' on that one...

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 10:41 PM

That's one reason I'm becoming a cranky -- or crankier -- old asshole.

How old are ya, Clint?

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:26 AM

The difference over here in England is that nobody seems to think those things.

The Blairite line is that they really did think that Saddam had some weapons, though of course they never thought he had anything to do with Al Qaida, let alone September 11th - but he was a really nasty guy, and it's good that he's out of the way. And that anyway we're stuck in there now, and have to sort out the mess we made, and we should move on from arguing about why we're there. (And the implication always is that if the British weren't there, God knows what the Americans would do to the place. Sort of soft cop, hard cop.)

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:36 AM

Still looking for just one thinking person who's going to vote for Bush-----and why.

It's certainly true that if Bush has promised you no acne and less bad breath, that's an excellent reason to vote for him,----- and on a par with the other reasons I've seen so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:05 AM

I have a couple of close friends who are republicans (amazing as that may seem) and I think they choose to be republicans for reasons other than to support Bush and his policies. I honestly haven't asked them how they're going to vote this time, because I think they must be having a hard enough time making that decision without being torqued around by me. They're smart enough to figure out the ins and outs of this administration, and to figure if it is worth it to them THIS TIME to continue to vote for the leader of their party.

Here are two I just posted on a different thread, but they may fit even better over here:

Do the supporters of President Bush really know their man or the policies of his administration? Three out of 4 self-described supporters of President George W. Bush still believe that pre-war Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction (WMD) or active programs to produce them. According to a new survey published Thursday, the same number also believes that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein provided "substantial support" to al Qaeda.
http://www.alternet.org/story/20263/


WASHINGTON -- Supporters of President Bush are less knowledgeable about the president's foreign policy positions and are more likely to be mistaken about factual issues in world affairs than voters who back John F. Kerry, a survey released yesterday indicated.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/10/22/divide_seen_in_voter_knowledge/

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:10 AM

Hell, I'm a registered Republican (and a veteran) myself.

This guy (Bush) ain't no Republican-----I have no idea what rock he crawled out from---but I intend to send him back ASAP.

I also did not vote for him in 2000--had a pretty good idea what he was like then.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:17 AM

Seventybygodthree, Brucie.

Always figured I'd live this long, but I didn't know I'd be this old when I got here.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:06 PM

George Lakoff addresses the issue of "realities" in his new must-read book,
"Don't Think of an Elephant". The Republican Reactionaries view the world as basically an evil place that one has to be protected from. It falls into line with many Republican Evangelicals who believe the world is no good and the Rapture will fix all that. They are generally paternalistic, punitive and think that everything they don't like deserves a kick in the ass. They believe in self-interest above helping others. They make good CEO's.

Progressives, however, see the world as a potentially good place where people can learn to live together in harmony. They are nurturing and
generous folks who believe that to live in a civilized society, paying taxes is paying dues for that privilege. They are humanitarians that want to help those less fortunate then themselves.

In short, the separate realities have nothing to do with policies or facts. They have more to do with the view of the world. It's a culture thing.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:09 PM

But there's no reason someone shouldn't have either mindset and find they are more in agreement with the politics of either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:32 PM

Frank:

An interesting analysis. Makes me feel much better about not being a CEO!!! LOL

As regards the Reality Divide, here are some excerpts from Later-Bush.Com:

Yukiko & Kanako & Kelli Anne & Joyce from Hawaii 808 state baby says "EYYYY!!! Miztah Bush go buh bye! c ya'll l8er!!! BOO YAH! U STINK! You shouldn't have made the war! If you didn't we wouldn't have to continue it!" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:03pm PDT)


laura from earth says "you are a bitch" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:03pm PDT)


maria del sol from florida says "Bush start packing up, i hope you get the flu , you wont buy me for your dirty money!!!!!!!" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:02pm PDT)


Bush Lies from Texas says "Bush Lies to Everyone including Pat Robertson who quoted Bush saying "There will be no casualties in Iraq" then later denied it. Given the record of the two men, I am more inclined to believe Pat Robertson. He may be a right wing evangelist with fundamentalist beliefs, but he is no liar. Now George's record: 1. WMD in Iraq. 2. Iraq Al-Qaeda connection. 3. Job losses are a myth. (Here is one for you: Ohio, Penn, and Wisconsin: "McDonalds is a manufacturing job".). Go Figure. As Kerry says: this guy can't walk and chew gum at the same time. But everytime he speaks, there is another lie. So, I say disregard the polls and everyone Vote. Remember the Republicans pay the pollsters to sway the data. They poll the right number of people until they get the result that they want. They were not just wrong in 2000 when they predicted Bush 57 Gore 43 but they lied. So make sure you vote. Vote for Kerry! Vote For Change! Vote For Kerry! Vote For Change! Vote For Kerry! Vote For Change! Vote For Kerry! Vote For Change! Vote For Kerry! Vote For Change!" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 11:59am PDT)


Don Bursch from Nashvlle, TN says "Bush is going down! We refuse to confuse courage with stupidity, consistency with an arrogant disregard for truth. Religion and patriotism is the last refuge for liars and acoundrels. Thinking and caring Americans unite: no little Hitlers for this nation!" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 11:56am PDT)


matthew from holmes says "you need a lesson on ethics and leadership. see yah!" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 11:56am PDT)


Doesnt matter from New York says "Bush is the man, he knows what he is doing, unlike senator Kerry who looks like herman munster I might add. Kerry votes 98 times for tax increase, and has a horrible record. I guess you guys like paying taxes. He doesn't probably know if he even wants to be president he flip flops so much! Kerry is the most goffiest and dumbest person I have ever seen on tv. And whoever is voting for him obviously doesn't know what's best for America!" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 11:53am PDT)


lynette from gainesville flordia says "Cause he trying to do things for irqu but not trying to do anthing for his town and the ones who need help." (Sat, Oct 23rd, 11:52am PDT)


Jessica from Maine says "Bush put us in war, made millons of people lose their jobs, and ruined our country!!!!!! See ya Later Bush!" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 11:52am PDT)


Donald from Mesquita says "I'm sure we will see you in Heaven for saving America form terror" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 11:50am PDT)


Blaine Putnam from California says "Not enough room here. will find your e-mail address" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 11:49am PDT)


John Galko from Vancouver WA says "Time for a change, you are for the rich" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 11:46am PDT)


Jock from Ireland says "Being resolute and wrong is not a virture for Bush!" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 11:44am PDT)


Al Sharief from Lincoln, Ca says "Bye Bye Shrub. You are a lier. You are not too smart You are arogant. You are a divider. You are servent to the ultra conservative. You are too religious. You are under the influance of bad people you love war too much. did I say you arogant." (Sat, Oct 23rd, 11:39am PDT)


CYNDI from PALM SPRINGS CA says "JOHN KERRY'S WIFE IS WHITE TRASH." (Sat, Oct 23rd, 11:37am PDT)


Valerie from Austin, Texas says "I too am amazed at the percentage of people polled who are for Bush. I understand 1%, they are the very rich or as President Bush said "The haves and the have mores." But it makes me very sad that at least 45% (give or take ~ Zogby Poll) do not seem to have invested the least bit of time to research or investigate Bush's record or claims. It saddens me to think that many people could be so willfully ignorant. He, his administration and appointees are literally destroying this country for their own personal gain (and the gain of that 1%). I hear again and again from Bush people, as can be seen on this site, Bush is 'stronger' than Kerry. Bush is a coward, whose father used his political connection to get Bush Jr. into the National Guard so that he could avoid having to serve in Vietnam...and he could not even serve that post with honor. Cheney is coward. He received 7 deferrments so that he would not have to serve. Sen. John Kerry did not hide out stateside in the National Guard. He VOLUNTEERED for ACTIVE DUTY and REQUESTED to serve on a swift boat. He received a SILVER STAR, a BRONZE STAR, and two PURPLE HEARTS. Yes, he spoke out against the Vietnam War and if anyone had a right to HE DID, since he had been there and seen it. By contrast Bush Jr. spoke out FOR the war in Vietnam, thought we should be there but didn't want to actually have to fight it. I would say that alone shows who is 'stronger'. President Bush is a three time loser in business as well. His three attempts at 'entrepenuership' FAILED. Now, history repeats itself, he is for a war that others will bleed and die for, and the 'business' that he was awarded by the Supreme Court is going into the toilet. It is time to hand Bush his 'discharge/walking papers'...See ya!" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 11:37am PDT)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 05:24 PM

In a representative poll recently in Germany, with one question being who we would vote for if we could in the USA, Bush got 6 % of the votes. It seems we live, from left to right, in our own separate reality.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 09:10 PM

Some people are so screwed up, they think there are two realities.

In fact there is one. Go fugure out what the real reality is.

I wonder how many people in the US would vote for Gerhard Schroeder, not that is means anything.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:12 PM

Well if there were only "one reality" and it is the one seen through your eyes, Old Guy, then we'd all be fucked. Good thing you're wrong wrong wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: pdq
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:21 PM

Wow! Old Guy is now a member! Welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:48 PM

The point is not that there is more than one real universe, OG. It is that the partial awareness that comprises the "perceived truth" of one set of people is vitally different from the "perceived truth" of another set of people.

Even an arrogant dumbfuck knows that you cannot lay claim to all of reality being perceived by your point of view.

'Cept for Looney-Boy.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:00 PM

OG:

Time for William Blake again. There may or may not be only one reality, but in any case, as St. Will says

"A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees."

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 01:37 AM

Remember the dark ages? People thought that what they could see was not reality, it was what evil spirits wanted them to see. Then they proceeded to create the real reality that was not thrust on them by the demons.

Some people are back in those dark ages. I don't believe in evil spirits so I believe what I see. I guess I was born too late to be caught up in that misery.

If you go to John Kerry's website and look at the scan of his enlistment you will see that he was in the USNR, the reserves. He vclaims all of his documents are there but he has not signed the form to allow the navy to release everything.

Kerry also applied for a deferment but it was not approved. Maybe George Bush should have known that Kerry would be a presidential candidate in the future and forgone his deferment approval to keep himself from being called a coward by the Kerry camp.

Bush's unit of could have been called up and Bush would have served. Do you think his old man pulled a string so his unit did not get called up? Old Bush was a fighter pilot too and he would have been proud to have his son follow him.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:09 AM

Hmm, a posting I made to this thread vanished. I'll try again.   

Old Guy, Kerry DID ask for a deferment to study in Paris for a year. But he was not trying to avoid Viet Nam.

How do I know, you ask?

because on Feb 10, 1968 he wrote to his CO and specifically requested to be sent to Viet Nam and serve in a swift boat.

You can see the letter here

Did Bush ever request to serve in Viet Nam, Old Guy?

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:06 AM

Noid:

I understand he was sationed near Vietnam on the Gridley as an electrician of some sort when he noticed the swift boats. He had a fixation on JFK (same initials) and thought he would like to skipper a swift boat to emulate JFK on his PT boat.

I am not sure of the date but he applied to serve on the swiftboats at some point in time. He was already in Vietnam.

I don't know what a deferment is good for except to delay going into the service but applying for a deferment is still applying for a deferment regardless of what it is for.

I don't know if Bush ever requested to serve in Vietnam. Does Bush like rap music? Does he listen to it? Should it be required for the commander in chief?

Did Bush carry a camera around so he could have films to promote his political agenda? Did he hold secret talks with the enemy when his country at war and while still being in the military?

Can Kerry fly an fighter jet? Can his daddy fly? Who the hell is his daddy? Who is his mother? What nationality were they? What is Teresa Heinz Kerry's first language? What country does she come from? Why do Heinz food jars say made in Mexico on the bottom?

What is Bush's net worth? What is Kerry's net worth? What is Laura Bush's net worth? What is TH Kerry's net worth?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:43 AM

Of course there are different ways of making sense of the evidence and the facts before us, and people can disagree about what needs to be done and all that - but that is different from a situation where large numbers of people are persuaded to believe things that patently are not true, by people who know they are not true, as a way of achieving political power.

The leaders of the administration in America know perfectly well that Iraq had no Weapons of Mass Destruction, even if perhaps at the time of the invasion they might have believed it did, and they know that Saddam had nothing to do with Al Qaeda or with 9/11. But they have done nothing to disabuse their followers about these falsehoods, and in fact they have done the reverse.

There aren't two realities here.There is one reality and a series of lies being exploited by people who know they are lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 09:34 AM

OG:

Maybe a day off the threads is indicated here. You're veering around, dropping a lot of rhetorical questions., and making less sense than usual, even.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 09:40 AM

There aren't two realities here.There is one reality and a series of lies being exploited by people who know they are lies.


Kevin:

You're a breath of fresh air, you know that!!?? Thanks for your rationality and calm.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 11:05 AM

Amos:

I agree that there is only one reality. There is reality and there are lies. The hard part is identifying the lies. That is the part you are having difficulty with.

Clinton bombed an asprin factory in Sudan based on faulty inteligence. Does that make him a liar and an a miserable failure?

He hurled some cruise missles into Afghanistan that fell on empty terrorist training camps. Intelligence told him there were Al Quaeda there. LIAR LIAR Boooo hiss failure.

NATO bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade due to bad inteligence. Miserable failure.

US military slaughtered and dragged through the streets in Mogadishu due to under estimating of the enemy. Inexcusable.

Yes, I am comparing Clinton to Bush because the same Democratic double standard or alternate reality will be applied to Kerry's actions if he is "elected".

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 01:00 PM

OG:

IF you want lies, count the number of times your Looney-Boy falsified the data about Sadaam Hussein and his reasons for wanting a war.

You don't drag a nation into war because you feel like it, which, in final analysis, is what Looney Boy did.

A couple of cruise missiles at a chemical factory which was labeled by the CIA as a chem weapons plant is a very different thing, don't you think, then marching thousands of people into the grave?

Mogadishu was an enormous fuckup, but not by the president, except perhaps in mismanaging the whole diplomatic side of events. But Clinton never asserted he invaded Mogadishu because they were harboring weapons of mass destruction. So I don't quite see why you are dragging his sorry ass into the picture here, except that you are out of other cogent arguments.

Clinton's mismanagement resulted in a handful of deaths. Bush's has resulted in several thousand.

Maybe Bush should have flipflopped more.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 01:21 PM

Ok Kevin: time for you to tell Amos what a breath of fresh air he is too! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 01:25 PM

Clinton is history. History is pretty interesting,because it involves finding out the truth and correcting the record, and learning from it.

But the fact that Clinton may have done various things wrong, or told a fair number of porkies in his time, isn't immediately relevant. It doesn't in any way change the fact that large number of people are right now being manipulated into believing things which are not true, by people who know they are not true, in order to get political advantage. And that isn't history, it is current reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 01:57 PM

Amos:

The old Democratic double standard rides again.

If the Clinton administration does something wrong up it was the intelligence or the military that fucked it up.

If the Bush admistration does something wrong it was only the head guy that fucked up.

History does have a bearing on what is percieved about the present. At least for the ones that choose to remember

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:02 PM

Oh, bullshit, OG. I am sure Clinton messed up his aspirin factory. Compared to dragging the thousands down that Bush has done, it is a teaspoon in the ocean.

You just won't get it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:16 PM

Just as a philosophical point:   there is only one reality. There are as many ways of peceiving that reality as there are people. The trick is to make your perceptions correspond as closely as possible to that one reality. Some folks are pretty good at it. Generally, they are the ones who look carefully and think deeply. And there are folks who are not. Generally, they are willing to believe what other people tell them without thinking about it very much.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:20 PM

It comes down to this. The Reactionary Republicans want to create a New World Order and a Crusade built on the assumption that might is right, God is on their side, vilifying those who don't agree with them and resorting to smear campaigns that they defend by accusing others of doing the same. They want to punish Muslims in the Middle East and specifically Iraq because they are frustrated that they felt victimized at 9/11, are angry because they lost the war in Vietnam and perhaps the Gulf War as well. They didn't understand that the Vietnamese were fighting for their country in the same way that they don't understand that the Iraqi people are fighting for theirs. The reason they are called the Right-Wing is that they feel they are right regardless of the facts, issues, policies and that their values should prevail at the expense of civil liberties, plurality, compassion, responsibility for the welfare of others and civil discourse. In this way, the Republicans have lost their war in Iraq and have succumbed to the so-called "terrorists" by advocating a policy of fear and anxiety to be controlled by a dictatorial Administration. No wonder Iran has endorsed Bush.

As George Lakoff says in his must-read book, "Don't Think of an Elephant", it's not a matter of Bush lies but of Bush betrayal of our young men and women sent off to fight a futile war.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:24 PM

Clinton was a creep, albeit a creep with the ability to charm people, and a waster. Quite possibly he'd have been a Republican if that had been the way to get on. But so what?

"Two wrongs don't make a right"

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:25 PM

"Conservatives are taller, better looking, make more money," are better educated, have better teeth, are less likely to have bad breath, acne or the heartbreak of psoriasis.

Are you comparing Kerry and Edwards to Bush and Cheney? Wrong on every single count! LOL


"Their wives shave their armpits, bathe more often, smell better and make love more often."

What you seem to be saying here is that the wives make lode more often than the husbands. Thats what cabana boys are for I guess. LOL

"Their children are better students, less likely to have behavioral problems or get pregnant at 15."

The boys, however are more likely to be virgins at twenty five, and girls are more likely to have a secret abortion.


"Conservatives also live longer because they don't worry about things they can't control."

No they don't it just seems that they live longer. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:42 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy - PM
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:06 AM

Noid:

"I understand he was sationed near Vietnam on the Gridley as an electrician of some sort when he noticed the swift boats. He had a fixation on JFK (same initials) and thought he would like to skipper a swift boat to emulate JFK on his PT boat."

Officer aren't electricians your ignorance is staggering.

"I am not sure of the date but he applied to serve on the swiftboats at some point in time. He was already in Vietnam."

Yes he volunteered for more dangerous duty.

"I don't know what a deferment is good for except to delay going into the service but applying for a deferment is still applying for a deferment regardless of what it is for."

Cheney, and Ashcroft delayed til the war was over.

"I don't know if Bush ever requested to serve in Vietnam."

In his application for the ANG he check the box. "not willing to serve over seas.

"Does Bush like rap music? Does he listen to it?"

Big and Rich probably.

"Should it be required for the commander in chief?"

It appears that his cultural horizons don't go much further than Crwaford and Midland Texas. This is not a good thing.

"Did Bush carry a camera around so he could have films to promote his political agenda?"

No but he sent flunkies to destroy his arrest records and military records.

"Did he hold secret talks with the enemy when his country at war and while still being in the military?"

1. Kerry didn't do that.
2. Cheney did five years ago. after having been Secretary of Defense.

"Can Kerry fly an fighter jet?"

Can Bush?

"Can his daddy fly?"

We are all aware of Bush's lifelong dependance on and envy of his daddy.

"Who the hell is his daddy? Who is his mother?"

Kerry is not crying on the shoulder of his daddy's contacts or still sucking on his mommy's teat.

" What nationality were they?"

New England American, just like "Texas" George's.

" What is Teresa Heinz Kerry's first language?"

Portagese

"What country does she come from?"

Mosambique

Why do Heinz food jars say made in Mexico on the bottom?

She has never had a say in Heinz's business. The company management is Republican and supports Bush. Why don't you ask them?

"What is Bush's net worth?"

In Dollars about 17 million in IQ about 85.

"What is Kerry's net worth?"

Donno, its certainly eclipsed by Theresa's money.

"What is Laura Bush's net worth?"

See George but her IQ is higher

"What is TH Kerry's net worth?"

500 million? What difference does it make?

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:43 PM

Amos:

Big or small, I say it is an example of the Democratic double standard that you subscribe to.

Maybe if Clinton had taken Al Quaeda seriously after the first twin towers bombing there would not have been a second one.

Maybe if he had taken Osama when Sudan offered to turn him over to the US, there would have been no 9/11.

How is that for a monumental screw up?

But no, a giant reset button was pushed when Bush took office and nothing that happened before then can be related to current events.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:44 PM

Reality is relative. If there is one reality, then we cannot come close to comprehending it.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:47 PM

"Maybe if Clinton had taken Al Quaeda seriously after the first twin towers bombing there would not have been a second one.

Maybe if he had taken Osama when Sudan offered to turn him over to the US, there would have been no 9/11."


This is complete horseshit. Why don't you read the 9/11 report? Republican spin and talk radio are not sources of information.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:50 PM

Jack:

Tell me what it says.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:54 PM

The are 450 pages not including footnotes.

It does say that the US goverment took the first attack seriously and it says that there was no such credible offer from Sudan.

What does Hannity say about it when he is not screaming at his "guests"? LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 04:49 PM

Jack:

The US governmnet treated the first attack as a legal matter, not as an act of war.

I think I heard Clinton in his own croaky voice claiming we did not have enough against Osama to hold him.

Another example of treating the matter as something to be handled by lawyers and judges.

BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG mistake.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 05:01 PM

Better to send the military against the wrong man than not to "show strength."

LOL

Bush couldn't possibly have done more to help Bin Laden's cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:01 PM

Well, it wasn't "an act of war". It was a serious act of terrorism by a private group of conspirators.

Calling it "war" is merely rhetoric, designed to quieten critics at home, and in the process helping the conspirators acquire prestige and power, and recruit more members.

The United States is very lucky that the Oklahoma bombing didn't lead to a similar sort of rhetoric - the people around McVeigh would have been immeasurably helped if they had been presented as an organisation who had turned the USA into a state at war, in which many civil liberties were no longer a luxury that could be afforded.
By this time you very probably would have some kind of civil war taking place.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:05 PM

}}}}}}}shudder{{{{{{{{{

Bush & Kerry Supporters

Like, you mean, the view from their JOCK straps?????

Eeeeeeeeeeeeewwww, really!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 07:39 PM

First, Old Guy, welcome as a member.

Now:

"Bush's unit could have been called up" (24 Oct 2004 1:37 AM)----this canard has been dealt with ad nauseam.

Bush got the pilot training but although the vast majority of his fellow trainees did wind up fighting in Vietnam, he didn't ( in fact he was ribbed about this during the training).

If he hadn't been a despicable hypocrite he could have pulled strings to ensure he DID get into combat---as some did during World War II.

Kerry went and fought.

Those are the facts.

Deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 08:10 PM

Ron:

So Bush is a coward because he did not pull strings?

How's that?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 08:20 PM

No Bush is a coward because he doesn't have any courage.

He was a CHEERLEADER in school. He's the least manly man ever to inhabit the oval office. Frankin Roosevelt could have kicked his Butt. ;-)

Watch this clip

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 10:00 PM

"He deserves to be in "Profiles in Courage" for his service in Vietnam...

Ex-Lt-Governor Barnes of Texas in this clip. (As cited above also).

"Let me tell that John Kerry is 100 times a better patriot than George Bush or Dick Cheney or Rumsfeld..."


A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 10:04 PM

Jack and Amos,

You both insist on posting refences to obviously biased sources. Accortding to the SRS rule, ALL the comments you have made are now invalid, and of no effect.


Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 10:10 PM

Sorry BB, you lose--

A direct quote trumps an allegation. The only questions then are:


1 Did he say it?

2 Is he a reliable source?

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 10:25 PM

As a Lieutenant Governor of Texas, he has direct insight into both Kerry and Bush's natures. And yes he did say it.

I think you should review the whole clip.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 10:37 PM

Ron,

You OBVIOUSLY do not understand ths SRS rule.

ANY fact which is presented can be judged SOLELY by the source. If the source is not of the proper viewpoint/bias, the fact is to be ignored, regardless of it's validity. This was established some time back, and the Mudcat community gave this rule it's full backing and support.

The item I had presented WAS direct quotes, but could not even be discussed, as the source site had been tainted by (shudder) conservative funding.


Thus, the biased sites that Amos insists on refering to cannot be used for any facts, even if the fact is true. We Would not want to violate the SRS Rule...

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 10:46 PM

BB:

Obviously you were badly stung by that bitch-slapping you got. And from a Texan, too!! Sorry about that.

But seriously now...a quote from someone is just as good as anythign else.

Don't waste your time being sarcastic!! **bg**

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 10:52 PM

Amos,

If you think that now, then I think less of you for your silence before.

Or is this another example of the idea that as long as the intent is pure, it does not matter what someone does?

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 10:59 PM

Beardbruce.

Its offered as opinion, not as proof.

Lt Governor Barnes says it much better than I can, that's why I suggested you watch him.

Even though she is wise and intelligent, I can't let SRS speak for me. Only I speak for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 11:33 PM

I didn't think you were capable of thinking less of me, BB.

I don't recall being involved in this issue before, and I think it is disingenuous of you to bring up some opinion with which SRS hit you, as a rule int his thread where it has no bearing. SRS does not speak for the community, and if you and she had a pissing contest, most of the people on this forum are probably unaware of it. I was vaguely aware of it at the time but don't remember what it was about, since as I recall I had no dog in that fight.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 11:49 PM

of course- so why should I allow you to use sources that I could not have used? In the law, silence implies consent- the resounding silence as SRS refused a reasonable discussion of facts, from all the liberals here is evidence to me that most of you only have principles when it suits you.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 12:00 AM

Real men pull strings. Cowards do not pull strings.

Real men apply for a deferment and get turned down. Cowards apply for a deferment and it is granted.

Real men join the reserves. Cowards join the reserves.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 12:07 AM

Jeeze, you two are a pair of real jokers.

I have been silent about many things, BB and it means nothing of the sort. I have stayed out of hundreds of silly fights in these threads, and why should you interpret the silence to mean I was agreeing with her rule rather than agreeing with your dissent from it? What a silly victimy sort of argument to make.

As for pulling strings, such as using pull with the lieutenant Governor to be appointed to the ANG due to your family connections,. I suppose that would indicate Bush is actually a coward in your cosmology, OG?

Because that's what the Lieutenant Governor says he did.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 12:54 AM

Well, damn, I've been busy away from the computer most of the day and evening, and I come in to find my moniker taken in vain.

Ages back Beardedbruce started crediting me with some draconian rhetorical rules after he was trounced in a few threads. I no longer try to discuss anything intellectual with him because he doesn't have the discipline to stick to the subject and stop throwing in distracting subject matter instead of introducing more source material or evidence of his own independent thought and nuance on the topic at hand. To disguise his lack of critical thinking skills he has turned an old argument with me into a shorthand that he throws in as often as possible (along with rants against Clinton and Kerry, apparently) hoping that if he says it often enough people will begin to think I've laid out some sort of set of rules to hamstring him.

Several of us have given up on his illogical "arguments" and posted links to online philosophy and rhetoric resources so he (and others) can read the definitions of the discursive faux pas of the moment. Critical thinking skills are learned over time, often in graduate school, and when practiced sharply, contribute to my considerable enjoyment of many topics here at Mudcat. But when pseudointellectuals come along and try to pound their points home with evidence gleaned from the supermarket rags and any old Geocities link or gossip spot they can find in a hasty search of the Internet, I reject this form of "evidence."

To this day beardedbruce has not changed his style of discourse, so I don't bother trying to argue with him because I always come away feeling that he is there simply to waste my time. It's an attention getting device that school children use when they haven't read up on the subject and hope to distract their teachers. He should have left this trick behind years ago.

This was written by me this evening in a matter-of-fact manner and tone. How he chooses to read it is up to him. His practice of putting words in my mouth when I'm not participating on a thread is disengenuous. He is using me and my style of discourse as a straw man to try to make his other arguments stand on their own. It is as if by invoking or anticipating what my response might be he means to show that he must have a legitmate argument if only I were there to join in.

I don't always get the arguments right, I don't always have a full understanding of a topic when I join in a discussion. That's what these threads can be so good for--learning new things and new ways of seeing. I've been known to change my mind, and do a lot of outside reading on subjects that are introduced here at Mudcat. I don't appreciate hyenas yipping around the edge of the conversation.

Go complain about Nerd or Amos for a while, BB. They don't seem to like your methods of discourse any better than I do.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 12:57 AM

Wasn't Barnes the Speaker of the House in 1968 when Looney-Boy joined the ANG?

"Barnes is a Democrat who is now actively raising money for Sen. John Kerry. But he was also a Democrat back in 1968, and serving as Texas speaker of the House. At 29, Barnes was a protégé of President Lyndon Johnson. But in keeping with the times, he wielded clout and connections to build a powerful political base. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/60II/main641984.shtml

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 01:16 AM

I dunno, Old Guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 01:51 AM

Old Guy,

you are quite wrong. Not only wrong but self-contradictory. Here is a direct quote from you:

I understand he was sationed near Vietnam on the Gridley as an electrician of some sort when he noticed the swift boats. He had a fixation on JFK (same initials) and thought he would like to skipper a swift boat to emulate JFK on his PT boat.

I am not sure of the date but he applied to serve on the swiftboats at some point in time. He was already in Vietnam.

You yourself say he was "somewhere near vietnam." THEN suddenly that becomes "already in vietnam." Well, sorry buddy you can't have it both ways. He may at some point have been NEAR vietnam, just as someone with a cushy job in Tokyo during the Korean War was "near Korea." He was not "IN Vietnam" until after he requested to go there.

Indeed, Kerry was not "near vietnam" when he "noticed the swift boats," as you erroneously claim. He requested Swift Boat duty the day after Gridley set sail from California. And if the Gridley was actually going TO vietnem, then the first line of his letter, "I request duty in Vietnam," would make no sense.

But then, you didn't bother to look at the letter, did you Old Guy?

No need to...you already think you know everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Stu
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 06:14 AM

To go back to Jim's orginal post, what the analysis reveals is the effect of neoconservative (I am not using the term perjoratively) myth-building on ordinary people.

The whole edifice of neoconservative philosophy is based on the teachings of Leo Strauss, who believed the best way to control your populace and impose your moral code on them is to frighten the shit out of them (Germany in the 1930's anyone?).

Previously, the cold war served this problem the evils of communism were constantly touted by the neocons and when the Iron Curtan finally fell, they needed a new enemy, and they readily found one in Islamic extremists.

Bush and the neocons controlling him (Cheney et al) are taking Strauss' methodology to new heights, suggesting Saddam's Iraq has been in collusion with al-Qaeda (contrary to the evidence) and they have successfully bent a large proportion of the population to their will with the essentially mythical constructs of a single world-wide terror network and hordes of red-eyed maniacs knocking on the door of the USA, ready to send it to damnation.

The attack on the WTC and the Pentagon are indicitive of a new wave of desperate ultra-violent measures radicals are willing to take to get people to join their cause. The rather cynical use of these horrific attacks to justify the actions of the US in Afghanistan, Iraq and Cuba is consistent with the neocon policy of pre-emptive strikes on nations it feels threatened by, regardless of internation law.

The real mystery is why nations of intelligent people allow themselves to be lead down this path - but it's happened before, and it will happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:49 AM

Because that's what the Lieutenant Governor says he did

Amos:

Where is the quote from the the Lieutenant Governor?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:51 AM

See the link of 10:00 PM on 24 October 2004, OG...in the film clip.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:57 AM

Stigweard:

Thanks for an intelligent and rational post.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 11:27 AM

Amos:

In the clip he says "I got a young man named George W. Bush in the National Guard when I was Lieutenant Governor of Texas"

Barnes the Speaker of the House in 1968 when Looney-Boy joined the ANG.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 11:34 AM

Exactly when do you think he stopped being Lt Governor of Texas?

You'r eprobably ignoring the lag time for this sort of process.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 11:36 AM

Capitalism in the U.S. and other European-colonized nations has a lot to answer for. Americans are seduced by all of the stuff they can buy, the perceived luxury they can obtain, the exotic (often out of season) foods they can eat, even if they spend themselves into an unstable personal financial quagmire to do it. They they're scared that if anything happens to rock that boat, they're personally sunk and will lose all of that stuff, let alone those luxuries. Could end up homeless. Houseless. Bush and his pals bank on that fear, along with terrorism threats, to keep those people in line.

But look at our extravagant lifestyle and at the "poor" in America. There are many who are, by comparison to the majority of Americans, very poor. There are many who will not get out of that situation alive. Yet compare these poor to the poor in the Sudan and other third world hot spots around the world and America's poor are rich by comparison. So what is happening here?

I think those neocons are fully aware of the bondage in which capitalism holds many Americans. And they strive to keep that control by literally buying votes--offering to let Americans have more of their own money, offering tax rebates (look at the child credit purposely sent months after tax season so people will remember receiving the gelt), less government oversight, blah blah blah. Look out for Number One. Mind the Main Chance.

The poor, schools, children, mentally ill, the elderly, fall through vast cracks that exist in that system. The liberal sides of the equation, and the moderate, see a need to support those who are not able to support themselves, see a need to slow consumption by the wealthy, and see the need to educate a nation, not just "my child," and to provide basic services for everyone, such as health care benefits. Along with this comes the realization that as long as the poor of this nation but in particular other nations feel the need to glean a living from the land in such a way to destroy the health of the land (thus the building blocks of clean air and clean water), they will not be able to reach a level where they can distribute the labor and the environmental impact differently (yeah, it works out more socialist, doesn't it? Too bad. It isn't a really a dirty word.) Pooling the resources to care for the greatest number of people isn't a crime and it isn't evil.

Capitalism again blinds those more prosperous Americans to the impact they theyselves have on the environment with their consumption of land, of fossil fuels (gasoline and plastic, in particular) and their generally wasteful ways. As long as they can go wherever they want whenever they want, they're truly "free." Not.

The subject of world-wide terror introduced above is part of this process to let the rich keep getting richer, let the poor and middle classes stay frightened. And let those who have oil make sweetheart deals with those in power in the U.S. and other european colonial powers. There are chinks in that plan, though. The oil folks who have lived so lavishly for years are seeing their system crumble at the edges. Look at the Saudis lately. Iraq is not just George W. Bush's Rubicon, it is the developed world's Rubicon. It has been crossed, and there is no going back.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 12:17 PM

Bush: "It's Good against Evil"

SRS: which side are you on?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 12:21 PM

I assure you, OG, that SRS -- and all of us here -- are on the side of the Good. In fact so are the majority of Iraqis.

That's the problem with simplistic "with us or against us" thinking. It breeds knee-jerk category reactions instead of clear thoughts.
There is a place for such adamant divisions, but the American political process is not it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 12:32 PM

Kerry succeeds in being for and against everything. Therefore he satisfies everybody and is neither for or against anything.

I find that very difficult position so It makes me mistrust him.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 01:37 PM

Exceptionally good posts by stigweard, 25 Oct 04 - 06:14 a.m, and Stilly River Sage, 25 Oct 04 - 11:36 a.m. If you skipped over them, go back and read them now.

It's nice to read something that is well-reasoned and articulate.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 01:47 PM

Thanks, Don. It occurred to me as I drove into work today (something I do only a couple of days a week--to save gas and time I mostly telecommute) that I should add the disclaimer that capitalism isn't something that can be laid at Bush or Clinton's door (just in case one of our more knee-jerk members or guests decides that is where I was headed). It's how it has been managed recently that is troubling. Bush signed a tax law into effect last week, but it was done in a very quiet, one might say secretive, fashion. That sets off alarm bells for me--I'll have to investigate.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 01:57 PM

The difference between Bush supporters and Kerry Supporters

1.   Bush supporters think Sadaam was a terrorist threat who murdered his people and was trying to develop WMD's and supported Hamas in suicide bombings against Israel.   Kerry supporters think Iraq was a lovable playground with kids flying kites and Sadaam was no worse than Bush or any other world leader.

2.   Bush supporters think terrorism is WW III.   Kerry supporters think terrorism is a nuisance

3.   Bush supporters think Bush has been consinstant in his views on terrorism and Iraq.   Kerry supporters think that Kerry has only had one position on Iraq and has never waffled, pandered, or changed postions on any issues.

4.   Bush supporters believe the 250 Swift boat veterans and 17 of the 21 commanders who oppose Kerry for president.   Kerry Supporters believe that Kerry was in Cambodia on Christmas 1968 when Nixon was president, and that is absolutely makes sense to vote for something before you vote against it.

5. Bush supporters believe that the US should make its own decisions about security.   Kerry supporters believe there should be a global test and that the UN should handle US security.

6.   Bush supporters believe the UN is a disgrace who wathces genicides and does nothing and the oil for food program was a horrible scandal.   Kerry Supporters believe we are a global society and that the UN wields ultimate power.

7.   Bush supporters believe there have been no attacks in the US because of the patriot act.   Kerry supporters believe there have been no attacks despite the patriot act.

8. Kerry Supporters think Bush is an idiot.   Bush Supporters beleive Bush is smart enough to outscore Rhodes Scolar Bill Bradley on his verbal SAT, graduate from Yale and Harvard, and (according to the NY Times this weekend) have a higher IQ than Kerry   (125 to 120)

The biggest difference between republicans and democrats.   According to the recent poll, republicans have better sex and more often than democrats.   No wonders you are all so crancy out there.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 02:29 PM

LarryK, this reductive little collection of binary opposites is why Jon Stewart jumped over the guys on CNN's Crossfire a couple of weeks ago. It's meaningless twaddle. It is a collection of diametrical opposites meant to generate arguments to boost ratings. Do you have anything to actually contribute to the conversation?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 02:46 PM

LarryK, that's very sleazy progaganda you're spouting. I am a Kerry supporter and your characterization of what I allegedly believe is ridiculous.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 03:13 PM

Shame on you, Larry. Surely you know better.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 05:22 PM

Old Guy, you are misinformed when you say,

"Maybe if Clinton had taken Al Quaeda seriously after the first twin towers bombing there would not have been a second one."

As a matter of fact, Clinton aborted an attack on Los Angeles International Airport. The were a number of others that were deterred under his watch as well. He took Al Quaeda much more seriously than Bush did who claimed that it was not a priority for him in a speech that he gave. "I don't know where he is and (to paraphrase) I don't think it's that important".

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 05:43 PM

And then in the third debate, when Kerry rgrew tta quote at him, Bush pretended that he had never said that, and in effect accused Kerry of making up the quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 05:44 PM

And then in the third debate, when Kerry threw that quote at him, Bush pretended that he had never said that, and in effect accused Kerry of making up the quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 09:54 PM

Larry K---

Pardon my exasperation, but talking to you is like talking to the wall. Worse, in fact, ----the wall at least does not keep reciting the same drivel over and over.

How many times do we have to patiently instruct you?---you're slower than most.

1)   Kerry supporters are aware Saddam is a murderous thug. There are lots in the world. This was not the reason Bush cited as pretext for his invasion, as even you should be aware. Only the loony Left (which does exist) would say Saddam is no worse than Bush. This is not the point.

2)   Yet again----do you ever read anything but your own tired mantra?-------Neither Kerry nor his supporters say terrorism is a "nuisance" now---just that it should be our goal to get it to that stage. Even Bush, in an extremely rare moment of lucidity, said that the war on terrorism could never be won.

See my posting of 20 Oct 2004 12:39 AM on the "There is no terrorism" thread.

In case you're crippled and can't get to that posting-- the main disagreement between Bush and Kerry on terrorism is how to get to the stage where terrorism is not the all-pervasive fear Bush is now stoking to assure election. Unless of course Bush is fool enough to think he can eliminate terrorism world-wide, for the first time in history.


3)    Bush supporters may think he has been "consinstant" (sic) in his views of terrorism and Iraq.


And they're dead wrong

A)   Where is Chalabi now?---remember him?
B)    Who keeps waffling on whether to attack Fallujah?   Clue:   It's not Kerry.
C)   Bush is all over the map on relations with Iran---why do the mullahs prefer him?
D)   Who keeps changing position on Libya---and now is blithely willing to accept Libya's statement it won't be a bad boy and sponsor terrorism any more?

etc.


Kerry was willing to give Bush the authority to use force in Iraq as a last resort. He found Bush could not be trusted to do that as a last resort---and so have the rest of us learned that Bush can't be trusted to make the right decision----on virtually anything.


4)   I asked you once already why the majority of men who actually served under Kerry (not in other Swift boats) think he was a fine leader.

Somehow you forgot to answer. Wonder why.


5) If the UN is a disgrace, how did Allawi (the new George Washington of Iraq, having replaced Chalabi in that position) get in? Since you appear a bit dense, I''ll tell you.----the UN was willing to act as honest broker between the US and Iraqis. Allawi was not the first choice of the UN, but without the UN it's unlikely anybody acceptable to both sides could have been chosen.

Ergo----if American casualties go down, since more Iraqis are taking them, it's because of the UN.

Are you grateful?   Somehow I doubt it.

6) Attacks on the US---I doubt the Patriot Act is our savior-----and there have been plenty elsewhere.

Patriot Act----the Bush Keystone Kops can't even get a single list of terrorist suspects------that's why Çat Stevens wound up on one list but not another.

Acccording to the Wall St Journal, the Bush (League) FBI and Bush (League) Homeland Security can't even agree which has responsibiity to put together such a list-----each says the other.


7)   UN should handle US security----Kerry himself has denied this tired canard over and over. Don't you ever listen to anybody but yourself?

8)   IQ etc.-----No, of course Bush isn't an idiot.   It's just too bad he doesn't use his stunning IQ once in a while. After 4 years, it's time for somebody who both can think and is willing to think.

Too bad you're not willing to bestir yourself to do so.

Subject: This is for you Amos!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:15 PM

More Halliburton Crime

There is Something About W

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:22 PM

Holy Moly, Jack.

Thanks.

There are several Quicktime clips on the second link above which I can only urge you to view. Anyone.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:23 PM

Larry:

Keep up the good work.

Maybe they will choke to death on the foam coming out of their mouths before they vote.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:25 PM

Old Guy, why do you see fit to encourage inaccuracies, foment rabble-rousing and fear-mongering and promote the dissemination of distortion? What good do yout hink you will accomplish by adding to the total of falsehoods in the world?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:29 PM

Old Guy--

Don't forget to check the "No terrorism" thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:37 PM

Old Guy----

Why don't you read what others post? You might learn something.

Except, I suppose, that as a stalwart Bushite, you have a Teflon brain. Is that it?

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 01:12 AM

And many of us have already voted at Early Voting and lived to speak of it. Yup. Sure felt good, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Stu
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 12:16 PM

Thanks for the positive feedback on the post.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 06:12 PM

Stigweard,

You are right about Strauss. It does remind one of Mein Kampf doesn't it?

Ron Suskind's article was revealing in that the Bush Administration would like to re-define reality through political power. Very Orwell.

Freedom is Slavery (curb civil rights by creating a security crisis)

How about the Ministry of Truth? We have Republican "spin".

How about the "three minute hate" period? A Bush rally when it comes to John Kerry is self-explanatory.

Here's a thought. John Kenneth Galbraith in his book "Anatomy of Power" describes three forms. Compensatory. You buy power with money. Condign. You use force. Consensual. You take it from support of the people.

The Republicans and some Democrats have the first. Votes can be bought.
Condign. That's what the Bush War is all about. Instill democracy by murdering innocent Iraqi women and children, and blowing up the country.
Consensual. We'll have to see what happens on Nov. 2. If Bush gets in office, I can predict a hostility from many countries in the world toward Americans for their ignorance in supporting and electing a dictator.

Frank

Subject: RE: TO OLD MAN AND NERD
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:22 PM

GW Bush TWICE requested transfer to active duty flying in Vietnam under a special program for Air Guard pilots. He was DENIED both times due to insufficient training. You'll never read THAT in the NY Times.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:28 PM

That the Nader GUEST or another one?

Either way, why not put a link to a source for what you said?

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 08:24 PM

Guest:

I seriously doubt that -- it would have been played all over the media louder than the Last Trump on Judgement Morn.

Get a source or come up with something a bit more credible. I could be wrong, though.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 08:38 PM

The New York TImes Dowd column puts the issue of OSama's tape vice Bush' eligibility question into its best and most natural perspective.

That Dowd gal is notter than a Saturday night special.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 08:45 PM

Of course Bush might have been on something at the time, if he ever volunteered for anything like that...

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: GUEST,Bunky
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 09:41 PM

Att Ron Davies:

John Kerry: A Navy Dove Runs for Congress [Original Interiew with John Kerry]
Published on Wednesday, February 18, 1970 John Kerry: A Navy Dove Runs for Congress
By SAMUEL Z. GOLDHABER Crimson Staff Writer
"Now 26, he was honorably discharged from the Navy last month

Kerry was not discharged until Feb 16 1978.
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Honorable_Discharge_From_Reserve.pdf

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Acceptance_of_Discharge_Naval_Reserve.pdf See also Tour of Duty

The Hatch Act forbids military members from being candidates for public office in partisan elections.

Captured Vietnamese circular of the anti-war movement in America July 16 1971
Captured VC Directive to back anti-war activities in the US April 28 1971

Kerry met in Paris during wartime with the enemy of the United States twice while he was a reserve officer in the Navy. which is a violation of the UCMJ Section 904 article 104 Aiding the enemy.
Any person who--

    (1) aids, or attempts to aid, the enemy with arms,
ammunition, supplies, money, or other things; or

    (2) without proper authority, knowingly harbors or [protects
or gives intelligence to or communicates or corresponds with or
holds any intercourse with the enemy, either directly or
indirectly;

shall suffer death or such other punishment as a court-martial
or military commission may direct.

Bunky

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:01 PM

Bunky, Old Guy, or whatever you call yourself, you are a first-rate piece of work. The site from which you are drawing these charges, first of all, are rabid, and undocumented. There is no sign that they are accurate.

But they are bitter, and nasty. And strident, and ill-formed as communications.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:14 PM

Bunky--

An indication of the validity of those charges is the fact that the Bush administration has declined to pursue them.

I suppose that might be because the liberal media, exerting its stranglehold over the Bush administration, forced it to drop all investigations of them.

Isn't that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: GUEST,Bunky
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:59 AM

Amos wrote the book on rabid, bitter, nasty, strident and ill informed.

And what the hell would happen it Bush did persue them?

Bunky

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:36 PM

Bunky - Personal attacks are inappropriate. If you wish to 'de-bunk' you may do so at anytime, as long as your sources are credible.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:49 PM

Bunky is telling us by his/her very name that the stuff he/she is posting is bunk. Let's call the bunko squad!

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:52 PM

Thanks for the highly analytic response, Bunko.

I'll let you know what I think after I chew on it for a while....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 03:05 PM

Spit that nasty stuff out, Amos! Didn't your mother tell you not to put stuff in your mouth that you find in the trash?

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 03:27 PM

I was just being polite!!! Phhhhhwwwtttttttt!!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: GUEST,Bunky
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:49 PM

Exactly. Amos should not personally attack people. He might strip his gears if he gets it handed back.

First there was an old old interview of Kerry where he claimed to be discharged in 1970. Then a link to his discharge records on his site proving he was discharged in 1978.

Then links to captured VC documents showing their support for the anti war movement.

Then a link that supports the fact that he did meet with the enemy.
You may object to the newsmax link but it is widely known that he did meet with the VC in Paris. He even brought their list of requirements for a cease fire back with him.

Now read about the Hatch act, the UCMJ and determine for your self if Kerry violated them regardless of what Bush did or didn't do.

B

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:56 PM

Bunky:

Find the links, pea-brain. That's all I got to say here. Document your claims, let us see the information.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: GUEST,Bunky:
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:02 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: GUEST,Bunky
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:04 PM

It's all there for the ones that want to see it.

B

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: GUEST,Bunky
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:13 PM

Amos is such a contentious Mudcatter
He tries to bulldoze us with his natter
We ignore him a lot
Which makes him get hot
And proves that he just doesn't matter

B

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:16 PM

Amos,

Bunky is a schitzoid personality. He delights in being a total fuckup on the threads as well as in his life. Not only that, but he also knows nothing about punctuation. Probably he hasn't reached the grade where the schools teach that part of English.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Support
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:41 PM

Bunky, Fuzzy, Ragnar, and a cast of thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: GUEST,Rumpleteazer
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:03 PM

Brucie the cranky Canuck
Had the IQ of a truck
His attempts to act smart
Were only a brain fart
Like somebody stepped on a duck

R

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 07:03 PM

Har Har Har

Subject: RE: BS: Separate Realities of Bush & Kerry Supporters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 10:10 PM

Doesn't scan.