BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:48 AM

Did Amnesty International also 'slam' Palestine for teaching its children to become suicide bombers, Albert?

Youtube -Palestine - Today & Tomorrow

Child suicide bombers - Wiki

Yasser Arafat had much to answer for, behind his grinning smile. His legacy will sadly, be around for many years to come, unless the Palestinian people take matters into their own hands, and choose to live their lives in peace, with their children being taught that we are all brothers.

Israel too should be teaching her children exactly the same lesson.

Peace will never have a chance if childrens minds are filled with hatred. That hatred becomes so ingrained it will often last a lifetime, being handed down, yet again, to the next generation.

There are two sides to everything. And both these 'sides' are hurting, not only each other, but themselves. They can only survive by going 'forward' in peace, together. No more looking back, only looking forward.

This Circle of Hate MUST be broken, by both sides.

I'd suggest you contact Amnesty International, Albert, find out where they stand on this matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:05 AM

Facts of (sub human) life

While Israel withdrew its troops and communities from Gaza in 2005, it remains the occupying power under international law, which entails responsibilities for the wellbeing of the civilian population.

Israel placed an economic blockade on Gaza in June 2007, following Hamas's takeover, but economic sanctions have been in place since Hamas were democratically elected to run the Palestinian Authority in January 2006

The decision to further cut fuel and electricity supplies was described by Palestinians and international agencies, including the UN, as collective punishment, which is illegal under international law.

Israel's sweeping blockade of basic necessities has reduced Gaza's population to a "subhuman existence," according to a senior UN official.

The World Bank estimated that poverty rates in Gaza stood at 67 percent in April 2008, with the UN suspending food aid for four days due to a lack of fuel for its delivery vehicles.
By these means, Israel has reduced the calorie intake of the Palestinians in Gaza, according to a UN report, to just 61 percent of the average daily requirement.

Lack of electricity has also drastically reduced drinkable water for the 70,000 Gazans who rely on wells using fuel pumps, while "60m liters of raw and partially treated sewage are being pumped straight into the sea every day," according to the Guardian newspaper.

Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary general, said: "There are 1.4 million people in Gaza, including the old, the young and the sick, who are already suffering from the impact of prolonged closure.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:12 AM

Fact is, there are 'facts' on BOTH sides, which are equally horrific to all of those involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:19 AM

Desmond Tutu on 'Apartheid in the Holy Land'

'Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice.

We condemn the violence of suicide bombers, and we condemn the corruption of young minds taught hatred; but we also condemn the violence of military incursions in the occupied lands, and the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured.

I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about

My heart aches. I say why are our memories so short. Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history so soon? Have they turned their backs on their profound and noble religious traditions?

My brother Naim Ateek has said what we used to say:

"I am not pro- this people or that.

I am pro-justice, pro-freedom. I am anti- injustice, anti-oppression"

But you know as well as I do that, somehow, the Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticise it is to be immediately dubbed anti-semitic , as if the Palestinians were not semitic'

From an address given at a conference on 'Ending the Occupation' held in Boston, Massachusetts.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:31 AM

"the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured. "

The Israelis used to let ambulances through- until the Palestinians used several of them to bring in explosives and suicide bombers to kill Israeli civilians.



And why is it that the Palestinians don't try to go out the Egyptian border to Gaza, to seek medical help?

ANd why is it that the Palestinians can find ways to keep bringing in rockets to attack Israel with, but cannot bring in food, fuel, or water? Do you really think that Israel is blocking fuel and LETTING the rockets and explosives into Gaza???

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:38 AM

Many Palestinian patients in the Gaza Strip have been unable to access health care and advanced medical treatment since 9 June 2007, when the Rafah crossing to Egypt was closed.

The medical infrastructure in Gaza is not able to provide certain services to its residents, including many types of surgery, and the Palestinian ministry of health refers patients to hospitals in countries such as Egypt and Israel.

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), in 2003 some 7,844 cases were referred abroad, of which 62.5 percent were sent to Egypt for treatment via Rafah. Now, this option no longer exists.

"The WHO is concerned about access for patients who need to travel for treatment," said Mahmoud Daher from the WHO in Gaza.

WHO estimates that between 300-400 patients a month need to travel through Rafah for medical care.


While, food aid continues to arrive in Gaza, residents still face hardships.

The UN's World Food Program (WFP) said that although the situation had improved, daily basic consumption needs have not been met.

"The WFP remains extremely concerned about the stock of basic commodities in Gaza, and we continue to closely monitor the situation," said Kirstie Campbell, a spokeswoman for the agency.

Also, as Palestinians in Gaza remain unable to export their goods due to the border closures, people's purchasing power has diminished. Over 85 percent of the population lives below a poverty line set at US$2.41 a day.

This affects their ability to buy basic supplies such as drinking water, fuel and soap.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:40 AM

"Many Palestinian patients in the Gaza Strip have been unable to access health care and advanced medical treatment since 9 June 2007, when the Rafah crossing to Egypt was closed"


Who closed it, and why?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:45 AM

Feb 2, 2008 12:22 | Updated Feb 3, 2008 14:33
Egypt closes Rafah border
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH, YAAKOV KATZ, AP AND JPOST.COM STAFF

Egyptian troops closed the last breach in Egypt's frontier with the Gaza Strip on Sunday morning, witnesses and Hamas security officials said, bringing to an end a week and a half of free movement for Gazans.

The troops were allowing Gazans and Egyptians who remained on the wrong side of the border to cross back, the witnesses and officials said, but had stopped allowing any new cross-border movement.

...

The officials said that while Israel was not part of the talks on the closure of the border, the defense establishment was in favor of the Hamas declaration earlier Saturday that Gaza would receive fuel and electricity from Egypt instead of from Israel.

"This would be great," one defense official said. "We have no interest in continuing to supply them with anything and prefer that they get what they need from Egypt."

Egypt's decision to close the border came after government officials in Cairo held separate talks last week with Hamas and Fatah leaders. The talks ended in failure as both Palestinian movements stuck to their original positions, sources close to the two parties said.

Hamas rejected Fatah's demand to redeploy forces loyal to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas at the Rafah border crossing in accordance with a US-brokered agreement that was reached in 2005.

Hamas also rejected the return of European monitors to the terminal, insisting that the border should be controlled only by Palestinians and Egyptians. However, Muhammad Naser, a member of the Hamas delegation to the Cairo talks, said his movement would agree to the presence of international monitors at the border on condition that they live in the Gaza Strip or Egypt. He noted that the European Union monitors who were stationed at the border crossing until Hamas took over the Strip in June had lived in Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1201867278614&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:47 AM

So, when do we start to blame Israel for the mess after Katrina?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:03 AM

"Israel placed an economic blockade on Gaza in June 2007"

You seem to have neglected a small detail there Emma, like WHY they dd this.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:10 AM

Abu El gheit Egyptian Minister of Foreign Affairs has described what happened on the border line with Gaza after floods of Gazans flew into the Egyptian territories, following knocking down of the fence-off iron wall as directly attributed to the closure of the Gaza Strip over the previous seven months, in which the Gaza's residents have suffered lack of essential supplies.

Prior to the Hamas takeover of Gaza in June 2007, when Hamas-linked forces routed Abbas-loyal security services, the Rafah crossing used to be run by the Abbas's elite forces 'presidential guards' and the Egyptian authorities, with help of about 70 European observers.

On June 17, Israel imposed a strict closure on the Gaza Strip, as the European observers quit the Rafah crossing terminal, leaving a vacuum.
Since then, the 1.5-million residents of the coastal region have been suffering from a lack of essential supplies.

Israeli media sources reported that Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, rejected the idea that the crossing be operated, while Hamas is holding sway in Gaza.

'In mid January 2008, Israel declared a total closure of Gaza's crossings and prevented entry of fuel supplies, medicine and food items, forcing the Gaza's sole power plant to shut down.'

International Middle East Media Center a collaboration between Palestinian and International journalists to provide independent media coverage of Israel-Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:21 AM

Since Hamas wrested control of Gaza from Fatah and the Palestinian Authority in June 2007 Israel has reduced the flow of goods into Gaza to a bare minimum and stopped goods from leaving.

Gaza's residents depend entirely on Israel for their exports and imports. Israel controls all the crossing points between Gaza and Israel and has a veto on the operation of the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt.

It is also a fact that Gazan militants are exacerbating the problem by firing rockets at the crossing terminals which halts the little movement of goods that is taking place.

However, a report by report by Gisha, an Israeli human rights organisation, concludes that the increase in poverty and dependency will only inevitably lead to a further radicalisation of Gaza's population

Sari Bashi, director of Gisha, said the impoverishment of Gaza was strengthening extremists at the expense of moderates. "Israel is attempting to achieve political objectives by exerting pressure on 1.4 million women, men and children, whose suffering is supposed to bring about the change it wants - toppling Hamas control in Gaza," she said.

"In reality, a policy of collective punishment is being imposed upon 1.4 million people, in violation of international humanitarian law and contradictory to Israel's interest. Destroying Gaza's economy only exacerbates dependence on extreme elements."

'In a further blow to the Gazan economy Unrwa and the UN Development Programme will announce today the suspension of all construction projects because Israel will not allow the import of cement. The projects are worth about $80m (£40m) and employ hundreds of people. The works include the construction of homes, health centres and sewage works..' The Guardian July 2007

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:23 AM

"It is also a fact that Gazan militants are exacerbating the problem by firing rockets at the crossing terminals which halts the little movement of goods that is taking place."


Gee!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:36 AM

The much delayed UN human rights council investigation into the shelling by the Israeli military of a Palestinian house which killed 18 members of a single family in Beit Hanoun is to start soon according to todays newspapers ; the Israeli government hascomplained that the council is politicised in its criticism of Israel.

Of course there are indiscriminate acts of violence on both sides!
That's why a lasting peace is imperative

Gee!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:02 AM

"Of course there are indiscriminate acts of violence on both sides!
That's why a lasting peace is imperative"

That is progress. May we hear about the indiscriminate acts perpetrated by Hezbollah?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:07 AM

http://www.standwithus.com/pdfs/flyers/UNAmbulance.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:21 AM

Another part to the picture.

Israel/Lebanon: Hizbullah's attacks on northern Israel


Date Published: 14 September 2006

Categories: Middle East And North Africa, Middle East And North Africa

During the recent 34-day war between Hizbullah and Israel both sides committed serious violations of international humanitarian law. Amnesty International calls for a comprehensive, independent and impartial inquiry to be conducted by the UN into violations of international humanitarian law by both sides in the conflict. The inquiry should examine in particular the impact of this conflict on the civilian population, and should be undertaken with a view to holding individuals responsible for crimes under international law and ensuring that full reparation is provided to the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:37 PM

After the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict, Lebanon became home to more than 110,000 Palestinian refugees from their homes in present day Israel
By 1975, they numbered more than 300,000, effectively creating an unofficial state-within-a-state in South Lebanon

'Hezbollah was conceived in 1982 by a group of clerics after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It was formed primarily to offer resistance to the Israeli occupation.
Inspired by the success of the Iranian Revolution, the party also dreamt of transforming Lebanon's multi-confessional state into an Iranian-style Islamic state. Although this idea was abandoned and the party today is a well-structured political organisation with members of parliament.'

From the BBC News site a few days ago

Six countries officially list Hezbollah or its security arm as a terrorist organization: the United States, the United Kingdom, Israel, Canada, the Netherlands, and Australia, though its designation as such is not unanimous.


However my contributions to this discussion have not been about the Lebanese situation or Hezbollah but rather about the appalling conditions behind the Apartheid Wall in Gaza which remain undisputed facts.

In the January 25 2006 democratic elections in Gaza Hamas won a landslide victory.

Although in the media Hamas tends to be identified with its military arm, Izzeddin al-Qassam, which is well known for its suicide attacks against Israeli targets, the organization's popularity in the Occupied Territories actually stems from its being seen as the voice of Palestinian dignity and the symbol of the defence of Palestinian rights at a time of unprecedented hardship, humiliation, and despair.

Most importantly, perhaps, Hamas acquired much of its political credit from its charity and social service networks. It built kindergartens and schools (that offer free meals for children), education centres for women, and youth and sports clubs. Its medical clinics provide subsidized treatment to the sick and the organization extends financial and technical assistance to those whose homes had been demolished as well as to refugees living in sub-standard conditions

In other words, Hamas was elected not only because it is considered an alternative to the corrupt Palestinian Authority, but also because Israel created the conditions that made it an indispensable social movement.

The claim that Hamasís popularity results from its social welfare network conceals the fact that Israel has produced a situation where there is desperate need for charity institutions. Accordingly, Israeli efforts to undermine the Palestinian Authority alongside its success in destroying the infrastructure of existence in the Occupied Territories has not only made Palestinian life miserable, but has empowered its most lethal adversary, the Hamas.

Starving Gaza while the Ramallah-based West Bank authority receives financial and political backing from Israel and its allies in the west has failed to shift Palestinian opinion in favour of President Mahmud Abbas and his prime minister, Salam Fayyad.

So, rather than heed the advice of the experts and fulfil the wish of his own public,(a poll published in the Israeli daily Ha'aretz in March this year suggested that 64% of Israelis favoured a negotiated truce with Hamas) Olmert has decided to go to war with the Gaza Strip


In February Isreali deputy defence minister Matan Vilna has threatened Gaza with "they will bring upon themselves a bigger 'shoah'* because we will use all our might to defend ourselves"

*the word "shoah" is rarely used in Israel beyond discussions of the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews

Remove the causes of violent protest and it may be possible to remove violent protest too.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:58 PM

After the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict, Israel became home to more than 520,000 Arab Jews who became refugees from their homes.


"the appalling conditions behind the Apartheid Wall in Gaza which remain undisputed facts"


Agreed- BUT you fail to show why Hamas, who has chosen to

1. engage in war against Israel
2. Choses to obtain weapons rather than food and medicine
3. Depend on Israel , while it has a border with Egypt, for supplies.
4. attack the very border crossings and flow of supplies that the population needs.

is not responsible for those conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:12 PM

Part of the problem is that the Palestinians have been used as a pawn by the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah and assorted posters here. They are people, and constant bitching about Israel--while the Israeli government deserves some of it--does nothing to help. NONE of the Arab neighbours has got off its arse to help at all, either. And PLEASE, don't some vacuous idiot post that they send in food or medicine. They also send in guns and suicide bombers, just to keep things roiling.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:32 PM

In order to know Israel's plan for Gaza, one has only to look at how the Zionist leadership has viewed the issue of Israel's borders and Arab expulsion, and to look at how the Israeli government has conducted itself in regard to Gaza, and the results of this conduct.

Supposing, for example, we were obliged to clear a country of wild beasts, we would not set about the task in the fashion of Europeans of the fifth century. We would not take spear and lance and go out singly in pursuit of bears; we would organise a large and active hunting party, drive the animals together, and throw a melinite bomb into their midst

--Theodore Hertzl, The Jewish State

(The area of the Jewish State extends) "From the Brook of Egypt (the Nile) to the Euphrates."

--Theodore Hertzl, Complete Diaries, Vol II p 711

"The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon."

Rabbi Fischmann, (member, Jewish Agency for Palestine) testimony before UN, 7/9/1947


Plan Dalet:

http://imeu.net/news/article008084.shtml

"I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it."

--David Ben-Gurion

This is the kind of thing that is beign done to Palestinians to make them leave occupied Palestine. It's in the West Bank, not Gaza, but it is one aspect of the plan for the ultimate removal of all Palestinians from occupied Palestine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djBPRcpBOv0&feature=related

Israel supported settlements in Gaza up until a couple of years ago. Settlements are a means of taking land from the local population. Since the settlements were removed, Israel has instituted policies that make it impossible to live in Gaza. With these policies, Gaza is slowly emptied of its Palestinians. This policy is independent of any actions taken by the Palestinians in Gaza. Even during the year long unilateral cease fire that Hamas conducted, Israel's policy towards Gaza did not change. Israel's actions in Gaza do not protect it from anything, and they are not for the purpose of protecting Israel from attack. They only serve to make it impossible for Gazans to remain in Gaza. Israel has no intention of allowing Palestinians to remain in Gaza.

This is one of the documents that outline Israel's long term plans for the Middle East. This document is supported by other documents from other sources, such as the diary of Moshe Sharrett, and the position paper, A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm from a US/Israeli think tank.

http://crashrecovery.org/fischer/article0005345.html

A Clean Break:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1438.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:38 PM

CarolC

Perhaps you might address my wuestion:

"the appalling conditions behind the Apartheid Wall in Gaza which remain undisputed facts"


Hamas, the government of Gaza, has chosen to

1. engage in war against Israel
2. obtain weapons rather than food and medicine
3. Depend on Israel , while it has a border with Egypt, for supplies.
4. attack the very border crossings and flow of supplies that the population needs.

Why is it not responsible for those conditions?


One has only to look at how the Palestinian leadership has viewed the issue of Israel's borders and Jewish expulsion, and to look at how the Palestinian government has conducted itself in regard to Gaza, and the results of this conduct.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:42 PM

I am not permitted to respond directly to any posters. I will post information when I get it if I think it's pertinent to the discussion in this thread. But if I respond directly to any posters, I will be barred from posting in the Mudcat. If anyone expects a response from me and doesn't get one, this is why.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:46 PM

To b.b.

The scope of Israel's ongoing control over major aspects of life in Gaza imposes on it responsibility for the safety and welfare of the residents there, in accordance with the laws of occupation specified in the Hague and Geneva Conventions. Regardless of the questions of the legal status of the Gaza Strip, international humanitarian law and international human rights law require Israel to protect civilians in time of armed conflict, safeguard wounded and sick persons, prevent deterioration in the humanitarian situation, and enable the shipment of necessary medicines and provision of an adequate standard of heal

Source: Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories
Date: 15 May 2008


Although Israel withdrew its settlers from Gaza three years ago, it maintains control of the sea, the airspace and all the crossings for people and goods with Israel AND with Egypt.
Under an agreement arranged by the US in late 2005, Israel is committed to opening the crossings to allow trade in and out of Gaza. However, since Hamas democratically consolidated its control of Gaza Israel has said the crossings must remain closed for security reasons.

The crossings are seen as hated symbols of Israeli authority and are frequent targets.

John Ging, Gaza director of the U.N. organization in charge of Palestinian refugees, said he hoped the recent attack, which ripped an 90-yard hole in the wall killing the truck driver would not hurt efforts to ease the blockade of Gaza, which he said has forced 1.1 million of Gaza's 1.4 million people to rely on daily food handouts from the U.N. just to survive.



In reply to Peace…

The breaching of the Apartheid Wall by a suicide bomber is said to bear the hallmarks of Islamic Jihad, one of two groups claiming joint responsibility for the bombing at the Erez crossing,
Abu Ahmad, a spokesman for Islamic Jihad said the attack was meant to "send a message" to Israel that if it didn't accept a truce, "Gaza is not going to be a place where you will enjoy stability."

Hamas has tried to distance itself from these remarks — aware that too close an association is not likely to help the Palestinian cause and that global jihadists have a stake in undermining any cease-fire deal with Israel.

Weapons are believed to be brought into Gaza through smuggling tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border.

I'm not being 'pro' anyone here - just anti injustice!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:50 PM

Carol, I just sent you a pm. You and I get into nastier fights than any other people on Mudcat. AND, you and I both know it. However, I am NOT happy with this.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:54 PM

Gotta ask everyone--either faction, middle-of-the roaders and the one or two completely reasonable people like me: NO one directs any antagonism at/toward Carol until such time as she has the right of reply. That sound OK by y'all? If your answer is no, then message me so I can send a rude reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:58 PM

Carol and I have had 'fights' too but I'm with Peace here!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:13 PM

I've been TRYING to follow all this (it ain't easy) but I'm with Peace here too! OK, WHO has imposed this on Carol? It is NOT fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:51 PM

"Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves in freedom (in Palestine); and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination."

--Zionist writer AhadHa'am


"There can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased."

--Dr. Eder (member of the Zionist commission)


"Politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside"

--David Ben-Gurion


"After we become a strong force, as a resultof the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine."

--David Ben-Gurion


"The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. Thesignature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever."


--Menachem Begin


Discussing 1948:

"In Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive…Arabs began to flee in terror…Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter"

--Menahem Begin


"Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution."

--Henry Cattan, (Palestine, The Arabs and Israel)


"It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe"

--Joseph Weitz, director, Jewish National Land Fund 12/19/1940


"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put."

--Erskine Childers, British researcher


On May 12, 1949, Israel signed a joint protocol in which it agreed to repatriate Arab refugees.

"My main purpose was to begin to undermine the protocol of 12 May, which we had signed only under duress of our struggle for admission to the U.N. Refusal to sign would...have immediately been reported to the Secretary-General and the various governments."

--Walter Eytan, head of israeli delegation to the UN


Preamble to the UN resolution admitting Israel to the United Nations includes this passage...

"Recalling its resolution of 29 November 1947 (on partition) and 11 December 1948 (on reparation and compensation), and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions, the General Assembly...decides to admit Israel into membership in the United Nations."


"In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."

--Menahem Begin


"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it."

--Ytzhak Rabin


"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them."

--David Ben-Gurion, 1936


It was not legal to settle in the Israeli/Syrian DMZ. The Arab Syrian farmers had been removed from the DMZ by the UN so that the DMZ would be a neutral zone.

"We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was"

--Moshe Dayan New York Times, May 11, 1997


"The main danger which Israel, as a 'Jewish state', poses to its own people, to other Jews and to its neighbors, is its ideologically motivated pursuit of territorial expansion and the inevitable series of wars resulting from this aim...No zionist politician has ever repudiated Ben-Gurion's idea that Israeli policies must be based (within the limits of practical considerations) on the restoration of Biblical borders as the borders of the Jewish state."

--Israeli professor, Israel Shahak


"(Israel) must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space."

--Moshe Dayan


Jews for Justice...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/OriginoftheArab-IsraeliConflict.pdf


Theodor Meron, the Israeli Foreign Ministry's legal adviser at the time of the 1967 war told the government of Israel that it would be illegal to build Jewish settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories, and he still holds that opinion today...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/secret-memo-shows-israel-knew-six-day-war-was-illegal-450410.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:32 PM

Hezbollah was formed in response to Israeli invasion and bombing of southern Lebanon...

The 1978 Operation Litani provided a clear lesson in the rules of unintended consequences. It was a swift success militarily; Israeli forces pushed across the border and moved about 20 miles north to the Litani River without serious opposition from primarily ragtag Palestinian defenders. They weren't native to the area or fully familiar with it -- they'd moved to it in the early 1970s to escape a crackdown in Jordan.

Under U.S. and other international pressure, the Israeli forces soon withdrew. But the Israeli defense minister at the time, Ezer Weizman, who later became president, ordered relentless bombing of the Lebanese border hills to drive out the civilian population. U.S. officials complained of civilian casualties, but the attacks continued.

The idea, Israeli officials explained, was to create a free-fire zone where it could be assumed that anybody moving around was a Palestinian guerrilla and a fair target for Israeli warplanes or artillery fire. The result over the next year, however, was a long list of civilian deaths -- farmers carrying tobacco crops to market, families picnicking on jagged hillsides and villagers caught in their homes when stray bombs landed.

Eventually, increasing numbers gave up and fled to Beirut. These families, most of them Shiite Muslims, took up residence in what was then undeveloped land between southern Beirut and the international airport -- and now is the teeming Shiite suburb known as the Dahiya.

Its exploding young population, sons of those chased from southern homes, became the base of a new radical organization born several years later. Inspired by the 1979 Iranian revolution, it eventually took the name Hezbollah, or Party of God.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/21/AR2006072101653.html?sub=AR

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:25 AM

The Israeli bombing attack on the Palestinian village of Samua in the West Bank (just prior to the 1967 war) was an attack on civilians. The UN observer in the video I posted a link to said that he and the other UN observers had been patrolling that area for a year and there were no weapons and no terrorists in that village for Israel to have been targeting.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:40 AM

Also, the UN observer in the video I posted said that the armored Israeli tractors in the DMZ were "in breach of the truce".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:37 AM

I can't see Olmert lasting much longer as Israeli leader.This arch Zionist is turning out to be just another corrupt crook fascinted by shiny pens and bags of unsourced money.How can people claima ny form of divine intervention in the ownership of the Holy Land?
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 09:53 AM

While we're talking about corruption in the Israeli government, may I humbly request the whereabouts of $300,000,000 last seen with Arafat? Remember, streets may seem to be one way, but they can be driven on in either direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 09:55 AM

"The scope of Israel's ongoing control over major aspects of life in Gaza imposes on it responsibility for the safety and welfare of the residents there, in accordance with the laws of occupation specified in the Hague and Geneva Conventions."

But Israel withdrew from occupying Gaza. They are not occupiers of that territory- Hamas is. Now they are at war with militants in order to defend themselves and their own citizens inside Israel. What about the welfare of the Israeli citizens?


"How can people claima ny form of divine intervention in the ownership of the Holy Land?"

Like I wrote previously Albert, the Jewish religion is centered on the divine and the Holy Land, as is the Muslim religion which has Jerusalem as one it's holiest places, amongst Mecca etc. You may not like that, but many millions of people believe this.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:33 PM

AN ABOMINATION!
Now ,now Arnie.....lets not get weasel worded about what the Israeli military is doing in Gaza.

1 It has demolished hundreds if not thousands of houses in Rafah and Khan Yunis both parts of Gaza.

2 It controls all entry and exit points in Gaza and has turned the city into what Israeli historian Ilan Pappe calls a" mega prison" for over a million people.

3 It has sent bulldozers into Gaza to uproot orchards and fields and destroy roads.

4 It has destroyed Gaza's only power station.

5 It has launched many air and land and sea attacks on Gaza killing hundreds [including whole family groups ] and destroying apartment blocks,houses,offices and other buildings.

6 It has allowed over a hundred ill Gazan citizens to die by refusing to allow them out of Gaza.
7
It has shelled picnicers on the beach.

8 It has cut food ,fuel and water into Gaza which is a form of collective punishment and a crime against International Law.

8 It has waged war on the children of Gaza ..starving them, blowing them up in their homes and on the beach and on the streets.

9 It has allowed a tide of sewage to flow through Gaza having destroyed the basic health infrastructure of the city.This is a form of biological warfare against civilians and children.

As Archbishop Tutu ,that splendid humanitarian has said, the behaviour of Israel towards Gaza has been an "abomination".How right he is!
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:44 PM

Halt the rocket attacks and there would be no need for the 'incursions'.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:47 PM

PALESTINE LIVES!
A major open air exhibition and festival of Palestinian art,music and poetry will take place at Albert Square,Manchester on saturday afternoon,the 6th June and all are welcome to find out more about Palestinian life and culture.
Speakers will include Palestinians living in Britain and from Gaza together with speakers from the Palestine Solidarity Campaign.All welcome.Starts at one oclock.
david

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 01:18 PM

Everything Israel is doing in and to Gaza is collective punishment, which is a war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 01:54 PM

Equally, everything Hezbollah is doing to Israel is a war crime. If neither side gives or bends, it will be status quo for lots longer. Takes two to tango.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:31 PM

When war crimes are committed, the people who are committing them are the ones who are supposed to be held responsible (in this case, that would be the government of Israel and Hamas), not the civilian population. I would support both the government of Israel and Hamas being taken before war crimes tribunals. I wonder if there are any people who are arguing on behalf of Israel who would say the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:32 PM

"Everything Israel is doing in and to Gaza is collective punishment".

Gazans did vote for Hamas who then later took over complete power in a total coup. Certain other armed militants fire rockets into Israel hoping to hit civilian targets almost on a daily basis are regarded as perfectly legal and acceptable in their new regime. Unfortunately they are all reeling in the consequences of all of this. Only Hamas now holds the power to move forwards in Gaza towards peace and deal somehow with Israel's real concerns to normalize relations, and if they do not use that power positively in that respect, it appears that the average lives of Palestinian Gazans will continue to suffer economically and otherwise, and it's a terribly dangerous and tragic situation for them. Recognizing the right of Israel's existence itself is THE major stumbling block - without at least that tell me why Israel has any incentive in which to deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:33 PM

"I wonder if there are any people who are arguing on behalf of Israel who would say the same."

You got my vote on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:35 PM

It would be good to think that the violence from both sides could stop if men of good will could come to the fore.....but with Zionism a racist, violent and expansionary creed it ain't gonna happen.

Israel has been invading ,threatening and humiliating its neighbours for so long I doubt that things can change in the forseeable future.

It has also stained its reputation by its savage attacks on the Palestinian people whether they are in Gaza,the illegally occupied West Bank or in refugee camps.
This week it has emerged that gangs of Israeli youngsters have been assaulting Palestinian teenagers and taxi drivers in Jerusalem in the most random of ways and these attacks have been encouraged by senior figures from their religious community [see Haaretz for the horrible details ].

And to top it all off the leader of Israel stands accused of being a petty corrupt crook [ he is already a war criminal for the attack on the civilian population of Lebanon ].
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:40 PM

"but with Zionism a racist, violent and expansionary creed it ain't gonna happen."

That is crap and you are just shit stirring. Bugger off, "Guest, Hugo".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:40 PM

Israel's blocking of all fuel supplies to Gaza was condemned as COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT* earlier this year as Amnesty International warned of an emerging public health emergency in the territory.

Amnesty International Middle East and North Africa programme director Malcolm Smart said ....

"The rocket attacks should cease, and immediately, but the entire population of Gaza should not be put at risk to bring this about."

"More than 40 seriously ill patients have died since the Israeli authorities closed Gaza's borders, so denying them access to hospital treatment abroad, but now the entire Gaza population is being put at risk as electricity and fuel supplies run out.

"This action appears calculated to make an already dire humanitarian situation worse, one in which the most vulnerable - the sick, the elderly, women and children - will bear the brunt, not the men of violence who carry out attacks against Israel.

'Even crucial aid is not allowed to reach those that need it most in Gaza. These measures must be stopped and the passage of aid, fuel and electricity and other basic necessities must be allowed to resume immediately."


*'Collective punishment is the punishment of a group of people as a result of the behaviour of one or more other individuals or groups. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions. Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by resistance movements.' Wikipedia


While Israel is reluctant to admit the effects of its blockade, it makes no bones about what the siege is intended to achieve: it is designed to pressure Hamas into putting a stop to the rocket attacks being launched against Israel from within Palestinian territory.

Israel has a right to attempt to stop the attacks on its civilian population, but not by any means.

International law specifically forbids collective punishment of occupied populations. The Geneva Conventions stipulate that occupying powers have an obligation to supply utilities such as water and power to occupied populations.

Israel has attempted to get around this by arguing that it is no longer bound by the law governing the administration of occupied territories because it withdrew its troops from Gaza in 2005.
But that is thoroughly unconvincing.

Israel still controls Gaza's borders, airspace and territorial waters. It may have begun referring to the Strip as a "hostile entity", but this is plainly an area still under Israeli control.


'Israel is justified in taking the rocket attacks seriously. But collective punishment of 1.5 million Gazans is no way to deal with the threat.
All this blockage will do is drive more Gazans into the arms of militants and entrench a hatred of Israel among them. Rather than making Israel safer, it will merely expose her to greater danger.'
The Independent January 2008

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:41 PM

May I humbly suggest that "Guest,Hugo" be ignored completely? That way he'll get bored and fu#k off.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:45 PM

Holding civilian populations responsible for what their governments do is collective punishment, which is a war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:41 PM

Once again - to end the boarder blockade Hamas holds supreme power in Gaza and certain things need to happen. things like: recognize Israeli existence rights, outlaw and cease militant rocket and suicide attacks into Israel, stop smuggling arms into Gaza when boarders are open ( or closed ). None of these appear to be acceptable at all for Hamas to overcome - things which could lead to the better welfare of their civilians and reconciliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:57 PM

Consider this too: Hamas could be actually be encouraging militant attacks resulting in Palestinian casualties. Why - because they know full well that Israel must retaliate, instead of just being sitting ducks and appearing weak in the face of their enemies. When Israel strikes back and innocent people die, Hamas actually may want this to occur to further their cause for more sympathy to use as propaganda in the world against the evil Zionist Entity and garner legitimacy. The more violence that they can provoke from the Israelis by attacking them relentlessly the better Hamas looks like a defender.
The danger in this is eventually Israel could strike in all out war.