BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:07 PM

Some people think their interpretations of other people's arguments can serve as a substitute for other people's actual arguments. This is not the case. The interpretations (in many cases, deliberate distortions) that some people like to place on my arguments, are not my actual arguments, but are in fact, creations of the minds of those making the interpretations.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM

Thou protesteth too much. Verily, had your last post come from anybody else, I would have thought them referring to CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:19 PM

It's fairly obvious that when people get into the habit of substituting personal attacks for actual arguments, it becomes an entrenched behavior that is not easily let go of. But thinking people can see them for what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:23 PM

Wack-A-Mole!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:24 PM

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 09:56 AM

Recipes aside, here is a Palestinian 'fact' that is par for the course and not surprisingly had very poor odds at the bookies:

Israeli Government and Hamas negotiate a "Truce" with regard to Gaza supposedly to ease the suffering of the "Palestinian" people unfortunate enough to be under the governance of Hamas in Gaza. Within days the "Truce" is broken by guess who? Yep got it in one "Palestinian" Arabs from inside Gaza.

This just adds to a rather long list of agreements entered into in good faith by the Israelis only to see the other side renege on terms, conditions and promises made.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 10:26 AM

"..adds to a rather long list of agreements entered into in good faith by the Israelis only to see the other side renege on terms, conditions and promises made."

As I noted a few days ago, Teribus, no good deed goes unpunished.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:03 PM

Rocket hits Israel, second violation of Gaza truce

By AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writer
28 minutes ago

JERUSALEM - Gaza militants fired two rockets into southern Israel on Thursday, causing no injuries but undermining a shaky, week-old truce meant to halt a violent cycle of attacks and harsh Israeli reprisals.

It was the second breach of the Egyptian-mediated truce by Palestinian militants. The Israeli military said one rocket landed in an open field on a communal farm, but would not say where the other one landed.

The Israeli government had no immediate response to the latest rocket fire, but security officials said Defense Minister Ehud Barak convened a meeting of security officials to decide how to respond.

Skepticism about the truce's ability to hold was widespread even before it took effect June 19.

The initial objective of the deal was to halt the rockets and mortars that have bombarded southern Israel for years and ease Israel's bruising blockade of Gaza.

Israel resealed its cargo crossings with Gaza on Tuesday after militants fired three rockets into southern Israel. The passages have remained closed since then, cutting off shipments of basic supplies that had been increased slightly as part of the cease-fire deal.

Before the rocket attack Thursday, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri denounced the resealing of the border as a "severe breach of the calm agreement."

Hamas, which has ruled Gaza for the past year, has said it will enforce the truce, but not confront militants from other groups who violate the deal.

The Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent group linked to the rival Fatah movement, claimed responsibility for Thursday's attack. In a text message sent to reporters, it said "the truce must include the West Bank and all sorts of aggression must stop."

The first truce infraction took place after Israel killed two Palestinians in a raid in the West Bank city of Nablus, including a militant leader. During the truce talks, Israel resisted militants' demands to extend the cease-fire to the West Bank.

The West Bank is ruled by moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who lost control of Gaza to the violent Islamic militant Hamas a year ago. Israel is engaged in peace talks with Abbas, but carries out raids in the West Bank because it is not satisfied with the crackdown on militant groups there.

The West Bank and Gaza lie on opposite sides of Israel.

The Gaza cease-fire is meant to avert an Israeli invasion of the territory, which Israel evacuated in 2005 after a 38-year military occupation. Attacks on southern Israel from Gaza increased after the Israeli withdrawal and stepped up further after Hamas violently overran Gaza.

Since the Hamas takeover, more than 400 Palestinians, including dozens of civilians, and seven Israelis have been killed in tit-for-tat fighting.

The rocket assault Thursday came as an Israeli envoy headed to Egypt to meet with Egyptian officials on the final stage of the agreement — a swap of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners for an Israeli soldier Hamas has held captive for two years. Israel has balked at Hamas' demands, saying its list of prisoners is full of people involved in deadly attacks on Israelis.

Hamas also has demanded that Israel reopen Gaza's strategic border crossing with Egypt in the final phase of the six-month truce deal.

The Rafah crossing has been sealed since the Hamas takeover, confining Gaza's 1.4 million people to the tiny seaside territory and preventing them from receiving infusions of goods from Egypt. Israel has said it wouldn't open Rafah until the soldier returns home.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:36 AM

Hamas negotiated a truce, and they have kept the truce.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 09:21 AM

"Hamas negotiated a truce, and they have kept the truce."


If Hamas is the government of Gaza, then they are responsible for controling those "criminal " elements that are launching the rockets.

If they are not the government, then they should be removed and the rightful government installed.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 11:43 AM

"If Hamas is the government of Gaza, then they are responsible for controling those "criminal " elements that are launching the rockets."

Christ, you'd think they'd do everything in their power to enforce their people to honor the truce, if only so they can re-arm in peace. [Irony intended].

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:15 PM

Israeli reaction to those Truce violations CarolC has been what?

What do you think the reaction would be in most countries if rockets and mortars were fired at them across their borders 2300+ so far this year. Maybe we should try it out and see what Iran's reaction would be, after all thats where most of the ordinance that is being fired into Israel originates from.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:20 PM

If Hamas is going to be held responsible for what all of the people in Gaza do, then conversely, Israel is also responsible for all of the violence committed by settlers against Palestinians. I guess that means the US needs to start blockading Israel and not send it any more money.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:21 PM

Israel's response to the rockets was to tighten the blockade.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM

'A fragile eight-day-old truce between Israel and Palestinian groups in the Gaza Strip appears to have been violated repeatedly by both sides.

A UN source says Israeli troops have opened fire on Palestinian farmers several times, causing injuries....

Palestinian militants have also broken the ceasefire, firing rockets and mortars into Israeli territory

Meanwhile, Israel has kept the Gaza border closed for a third day.

The authorities have allowed fuel into the Gaza Strip, but blocked all other supplies including humanitarian and commercial goods....
..The EU funds the deliveries of fuel to the power station.'

BBC report today

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 03:14 PM

Nothing to add now, but noticed we were stuck on 666 posts, and I know that is an evil number....The Mark of the BEAST. Now it's gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:30 PM

Washington Post

An Unwelcome Hero
Hezbollah bargains for a child-killer's freedom.

Monday, July 7, 2008; Page A12

FAR BE IT from us to second-guess the Israeli government's decision to trade Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners for the bodies of two Israeli soldiers captured by Hezbollah in the July 2006 incident that triggered a bloody 34-day war between Israel and the Lebanese Shiite organization. Many in Israel felt that ending the agony of the soldiers' families outweighed the risk that a trade would simply encourage more terrorism and hostage-taking. Many disagreed -- though in the end the Israeli cabinet's vote in favor was a lopsided 22 to 3. The exchange is now expected to take place in the coming week. Perhaps Prime Minister Ehud Olmert thought it was time to empty his jails of their last Lebanese inmates, so as to deprive Hezbollah of that perennial complaint. Or perhaps the prisoner exchange fits into a wider diplomatic strategy that includes incipient talks with Syria, an offer of talks with Lebanon and a shaky truce with Hamas. This turn of events does, however, tell us a lot about Hezbollah and about those within Lebanon's political culture who either support it or can't quite bring themselves to oppose it.

The story begins in 1979, when four terrorists based in Lebanon and affiliated with Abu Abbas landed in northern Israel, on a mission ostensibly aimed at protesting the recent Egyptian-Israeli peace agreement. The raid quickly went awry, and Israeli police cornered the terrorists. Hiding among rocks on the beach, one of the infiltrators, a 16-year-old named Samir Kuntar, proceeded to shoot and kill one of his hostages, then took the man's 4-year-old daughter and smashed her head between his rifle butt and a boulder until she was dead, too. Hiding elsewhere, the mother in this family covered her 2-year-old's mouth so tightly to prevent her sobs from being heard that she accidentally suffocated the child. Israel captured Mr. Kuntar and sentenced him to four life terms.


If anyone ever deserved the title "baby-killer," it is Samir Kuntar. Yet his freedom has been a popular demand in Lebanon and the cause of Lebanon-based gunslingers for almost three decades. Abbas's gang hijacked the Achille Lauro in 1985 in a failed effort to win Mr. Kuntar's release. After Abbas faded into semi-retirement in Saddam Hussein's Baghdad, Hezbollah took up the Kuntar cause, attempting to get Israel to swap him for bodies of Israelis killed in Hezbollah raids.

Great changes must take place across the Middle East before a lasting peace can be achieved. Israel must make territorial compromises and foster a dignified future for the Palestinians. But attitudes among Israel's enemies must be transformed as well. A good place to start would be to declare that people such as Samir Kuntar deserve to rot in prison, no matter what the religion or nationality of the children they kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:49 PM

"I guess that means the US needs to start blockading Israel and not send it any more money."


                     I would agree that the US should not send Israel any more money, but why waste resources on a blockade?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 12:03 PM

Israel, Hamas trade cows for calm as part of truce

By KARIN LAUB and IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writers
Wed Jul 9, 3:31 AM ET



SUFA CROSSING, Gaza Strip - An Israel-Hamas truce has boiled down to a simple trade-off: For a day of calm, Israel adds five truckloads of cows and 200 tons of cement to the barest basics it ships to Gaza, but rocket fire from the territory reseals the border for a day.

Since the cease-fire deal was reached nearly three weeks ago, the trickle of extra goods has barely made a difference in the daily lives of 1.4 million Gazans, who have been cut off from the world since the violent Hamas takeover a year ago. Gazans are struggling with frequent blackouts, soaring food prices and fuel rationing of five gallons per driver a week.

The truce remains shaky and the two sides seem unable to move forward. Still, weary residents cling to the hope that this deal will stick where many others failed.

"We need to breathe," said Gaza trucker Shawki Abu Shanab, 40, who stretches scarce diesel for his flatbed truck with motor and cooking oil and has no spare parts to fix worn tires and broken lights.

Under the Egyptian-brokered deal, Gaza's Hamas rulers are to halt rocket and mortar fire on Israeli border communities and Israel is to increase the flow of goods into Gaza. Israel had largely sealed the territory after the Hamas takeover, allowing only basic food and medicine to enter. Later, an Israeli soldier captured by Gaza militants two years ago is to be freed in a prisoner swamp under the deal.

On Tuesday, each side blamed the other for lack of progress.

Hamas has not reined in all militants, particularly those from rival groups, and the Israeli army says 15 rockets and mortars have been fired since the truce took effect June 19, including three mortars Tuesday. Lt. Peter Lerner, an Israeli military spokesman, said Hamas' failure is slowing a broader opening of the crossings.

Hamas says Israel closed border crossings for seven of 17 days of post-truce operations. "The calm is not shaky. The Israeli commitment to the calm is shaky," said Said Siyam, a senior Hamas official, before heading to Cairo for more truce talks with Egyptian officials.

And despite some attempts to defuse tensions, both sides have stuck to pre-truce behavior.

In Gaza, an explosion went off Tuesday in a Hamas military training camp, an apparent "work accident" that killed two militants and appeared to confirm Israeli fears that the group is using a lull to rearm. In the West Bank city of Nablus on Tuesday, Israel declared a shopping mall a Hamas front and ordered it shut down by August.

In Gaza, events of recent days illustrated how easily the truce can be derailed.

On Monday, cargo shipments appeared to be moving according to plan at the makeshift Sufa crossing between Israel and Gaza. In the morning, Israeli trucks delivered the usual staples — fruit, dairy, frozen meat — as well as a post-truce delivery of 200 tons of cement and about 100 beef cows.

Palestinian forklift operators, wearing bright yellow vests and with special security clearance, unloaded the cargo, drove it into a no-man's land and dropped it off there. After the Israelis withdrew, dozens of Gaza trucks approached and picked up the cargo. Because of the intense heat, cows were handled first, then frozen foods, dairies and other perishables.

The Gaza truckers had been waiting for hours at Sufa before they got the signal to go ahead. During their down time, they dozed on blankets in the shade of their trucks, played cards or smoked. By mid-afternoon, news spread that militants had fired a mortar shell toward the border.

The truckers were able to pick up their cargo that afternoon, but by Tuesday morning Sufa was closed — the expected response to the mortar shell. Egyptian intelligence chief Omar Suleiman, the architect of the truce, called Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak and asked him to reopen Sufa.

Barak relented, and the crossing reopened Tuesday afternoon. Two more mortar shells were fired that day, the army said, but Sufa was open Wednesday. It was not clear whether Israel was changing its policy or meeting a one-time request by the Egyptians.

Gaza militants, who usually rush to claim responsibility for rocket and mortar fire, did not do so in most of the post-truce attacks. Hamas police thwarted several border attacks, but it's not clear whether the Islamic militants, who are in tight control of Gaza, are unable or unwilling to rein in renegades.

In the meantime, Gaza's business people describe the new shipments as tiny drops in an ocean of need. Faysal Shawa, head of the Gaza Businessmen's Association, said some 4,000 businesses and workshops have been forced to shut down because of Israel's ban on Gaza trade, wiping out some 100,000 jobs.

Construction sites remain idle and the renewed cement shipments are at best enough for small jobs.

Osama Khayel, head of the Contractors Association, said building projects worth $245 million have been on hold for the past year. He noted that Gaza needs 4,000 tons of cement a day, or 20 times the current quantity coming in, and key construction materials like steel rods are still lacking.

Abu Shanab, the Gaza trucker who earns just $30 dollars for a day's work at Sufa, said the militants need to start thinking about ordinary Gazans.

"We ask them to take into consideration that we live in a very bad situation," said the father of eight. "If they fire one rocket, it means we go backwards."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 03:37 PM

Report: Torture widespread in Palestinian jails
By KARIN LAUB and DALIA NAMMARI, Associated Press Writers
1 hour, 21 minutes ago



RAMALLAH, West Bank - One detainee told of being beaten with pipes and having a screwdriver rammed into his back. Another said interrogators tied his hands behind his back then lifted him into the air by his bound wrists.

Two human rights groups on Monday decried widespread torture of political opponents by bitter Palestinian rivals Hamas and Fatah, and Associated Press interviews with three victims and a doctor backed the reports of abuse.

The findings emerged as the two sides carried out fresh arrest sweeps in the West Bank and Gaza — highlighting deep tensions in the Palestinian territories after a flare-up in violence over the weekend.

In the West Bank on Monday, the security forces of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas rounded up more than 50 suspected Hamas supporters, including mosque preachers and intellectuals, in retaliation for a similar sweep of Fatah loyalists in Gaza, set off by a bombing that killed five Hamas members Friday.

Hamas violently seized power in Gaza in June 2007, leaving the Islamic militant group in charge of the coastal territory and Abbas' forces controlling the West Bank.

The Palestinian human rights group Al Haq said Monday that arbitrary arrests of political opponents have been common since Hamas' takeover of Gaza, with each side trying to defend its turf.

"Arrests for political reasons haven't stopped for a second," Al Haq director Shawan Jabarin told reporters. He estimated that before the latest sweeps, more than 1,000 people had been seized by each side.

An estimated 20 to 30 percent of the detainees suffered torture, including severe beatings and being tied up in painful positions, said Jabarin, citing sworn statements from 150 detainees.

He said three died in detention in Gaza and one in the West Bank.

"The use of torture is dramatically up," added Fred Abrahams, a senior researcher for Human Rights Watch, a U.S.-based group that is releasing its own report on abuse this week.

Jabarin said that while he had no proof of an official torture policy, he believed political leaders were indirectly encouraging abuse by looking the other way.

Abbas' prime minister, Salam Fayyad, acknowledged "shortcomings," but said human rights violations have decreased. "I'm not defending anyone, but I can assure you that we have treated flaws and don't allow violations. The upcoming reports will be better," Fayyad said.

In Gaza, Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum acknowledged "mistakes" were made by the Hamas forces, but said that unlike in the West Bank, violators were increasingly being punished. He also accused the Fayyad government of trying to destroy Hamas in the West Bank with U.S. backing.

Human Rights Watch said Abbas' forces need to come under closer scrutiny because of the international support they enjoy. Funding of Abbas' forces should be linked to an improvement in the human rights record, Human Rights Watch said.

Two branches of the Palestinian security, the national forces and the civil police, receive training from the U.S. and Europe, respectively. Neither force was cited in the Al Haq report as being abusive, and in both cases, human rights training is part of the curriculum.

"The Palestinians themselves are looking to restructure the security force into a more accountable, transparent force," said Colin Smith, who leads the European effort.

The U.S. State Department said it had not seen the reports. "However, claims such as this obviously concern us greatly," said spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos. "This is why it's so important to establish a situation where we can provide for the security of all Palestinians."

On the streets, spiraling Hamas-Fatah tensions are setting the tone. The latest round began Friday evening, when a car bomb killed five Hamas members and a 6-year-old girl in Gaza City. Hamas blamed Fatah, which denied involvement, and rounded up some 200 Fatah supporters.

On Monday, Fatah struck back. Abbas' forces set up roadblocks across the West Bank city of Nablus, checking motorists' names against lists of wanted people. Intellectual Abdel Sattar Qassem, a frequent Abbas critic, was taken from his home, his family said.

Nathera al-Qouni stood outside Nablus' Jneid prison, waiting to hand clothes to her 35-year-old son Mustafa al-Qouni, who was arrested at a checkpoint. "He is not Hamas, he is just a mosque preacher," she said.

Al Haq described methods used by interrogators in both territories. Commonly, detainees' heads are covered by sacks and their hands tied behind their backs. They are made to stand for hours. Those who move risked beatings on arms, legs and the soles of feet. Other methods included threats, humiliation and isolation in tiny cells.

Three ex-detainees — two from the West Bank village of Salem and one from Gaza — gave similar accounts to the AP.

Jabour, a 33-year-old construction worker, said he was detained on Nov. 17 by military intelligence in Nablus, near Salem. He said he was asked where he had hidden the automatic rifle of his late brother, a member of the Hamas military wing killed by Israel in 2002.

Jabour insisted he had no ties to Hamas and did not know of a weapon.

He said that for the next six days, he was beaten severely with sticks, pipes and fists, including on the soles of his feet. His legs became so swollen and his feet so sore that he couldn't stand, he said.

Jabour said he was taken to Nablus' Rafidiyeh Hospital after an interrogator rammed a screwdriver into his back, making him pass out.

Dr. Marwan Jayousi, who examined Jabour, told the AP that his legs were heavily bruised and very swollen. "There were a lot of marks of beatings by sticks, on his back, on his scapula, shoulders, and it was painful," the physician said.

Jabour was released without charge several days later.

Hosni Jabara, 50, also from Salem, said he was arrested by the Preventive Security Service in Nablus on Jan. 28, and was tied up in painful positions off and on for 32 days.

At times, he was pulled off the ground by a rope hanging from the ceiling and attached to his hands tied behind his back, Jabara said. He said he told interrogators he's a proud member of Hamas, but that he has no knowledge of weapons, and he eventually was released.

In Gaza, a Fatah supporter said he was beaten severely by Hamas agents for several hours, until he lost consciousness and had blood streaming down his face. After initially agreeing to be quoted and photographed, he withdrew permission, saying he had received new threats from Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:33 PM

Palestinians just can't seem to catch a break. They're routinely tortured by Israelis as well...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/may/07/israel

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:16 AM

So, Israelis treat Palestinians like Palestinians treat Palestinians.

Too bad the Palestinaians can't treat the Israelis half as well. ( Noting the dead bodies of returned kidnap victims, random rocket attacks, bombers blowing up buses and children's parties, etc)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:34 AM

The Palestinians are treated collectively by Israelis far worse than Israelis are treated collectively by Palestinians. The numbers of dead, wounded, tortured, and maimed Palestinians (at the hands of Israelis) are proof enough of this, as well as the collective punishment that is being waged against all Palestinians by the government of Israel.

Here is a particularly poignant story...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/02/israelandthepalestinians.civilliberties

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:40 AM

So, Israelis treat Palestinians like Palestinians treat Palestinians.



I seem to be repeating myself. Perhaps we can ALSO hold the PALESTINIANS who treat others ( BOTH Palestinian and Israeli) as less than human at fault, as well?


Or do you only apply human standards of behaviour to Israelis? I had not thought so...

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:43 AM

Also, if anyone thinks they can claim moral high ground if they justify their human rights abuses against Palestinians by saying it's ok since the Palestinians do it to themselves also, they are quite mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:46 AM

What further punishment shall we mete out to the Palestinians than is already been done? Shall we kill them all? That's about all that's left.

Conversely, we could just leave them alone and let them get themselves sorted out, instead of keeping our big ugly fascist jack boots solidly planted on their collective necks and killing them slowly as we are doing now.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 12:30 PM

July 30th, 2008
Report eyes Palestinian infighting
Posted: 12:20 PM ET

(CNN) — Infighting between the two main Palestinian factions has led to arbitrary arrests, torture and abuse of detainees by both sides, Human Rights Watch said in a report released Wednesday.

Fatah and Hamas "have carried out a wave of unlawful arrests against opponents in recent days," and "Hamas forces physically abused some of the people they apprehended," the group said in its 113-page report.

Security forces on both sides act with impunity, the report says. "Neither authority is known to have prosecuted any of its own forces for the serious abuses committed during the heavy fighting in Gaza in June 2007, including summary executions, maiming and torture," it charges.