BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:50 PM

Bottom line is, for a police oficer armed with a gun, if and only if they would otherwise have felt obliged to shoot the target person, and able to justify doing that, would a police officer be justified in using a taser on them.

In the UK where police officers aren't generally armed with guns it gets more hypothetical - my worry is that the effect might even be to make them more trigger happy with their new toys once they have them.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:09 PM

Well, again, we do not have the FACTS in. It certainly appears to be real real unfortunate. Reminds me of the poor lady in the US airport who was detained and died in custody, choked by the restraints.

I am tempted to say this is an unforunate little era we're going through, when the very people who could extend some understanding to those out of kilter are tasked with maintaining a procedural environment that makes one just that much more desperate.

Bottom line: If you can't BE normal, by gum, y'better ACT normal.

Donuel's imaginary world is getting more realer alla time.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:10 PM

"By David Ljunggren and Allan Dowd
OTTAWA/ VANCOUVER, British Columbia (Reuters) - Canada ordered a review into the use of Tasers on Thursday after graphic video footage emerged showing police using the stun guns to shoot an unarmed Polish immigrant who then collapsed and died.

The video -- broadcast repeatedly on Canadian and U.S. television networks and posted on the Internet -- showed the immigrant, Robert Dziekanski, shrieking in agony after he was hit by 50,000-volt blasts at Vancouver International Airport a month ago.

"I've asked for a review relating to the use of Tasers. ... This is a tragic and grievous incident. We want to find out answers that can prevent these things from happening in the future," Public Security Minister Stockwell Day told Parliament."

from Reuters

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: gnu
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:15 PM

When men with guns "tell" me to "submit", guess what I am gonna do?

I am gonna lay down on the ground that they are pointing to.

Don't tell me they don't teach the RCMP basic sign language and I won't tell you that only a fucked up puppy would piss off a bunch of Glockies.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:15 PM

Well, again, we do not have the FACTS

That video seems quite enough facts on which to judge that this was something that should not and need not have happened.

Precisely who should be charged for this killing is another matter - before using the taser one of the policemen phoned for permission to do so, and was evidently given it. That implies another person who could perhaps belong in the dock as well.

But of course that won't happen...

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: pdq
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:29 PM

I was going to mention Rodney King, who was hit by a Taser at least twice and still charged the police like an angry rhino, but I found this...

                               ...intersesting assessment

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:44 PM

Which brings up another point: the use of drugs can change effect of anything used to "bring down" a suspect.

A case in point: very shortly after a State Police department in the Midwestern US were issued 15-round Smith&Wesson 9mm pistols, a veteran and a rookie on patrol around a very major city stopped a vehicle. The driver, who later tests showed was on high doses of PCP, attacked the two cops AND bystanders AND others in his vehicle. Finally, the police felt they had no other choice and emptied their pistols, hitting the man 28 out of 30 times. He kept coming, kept up his drug-induced rage, and was finally killed with a shotgun. (This police department no longer carries 9mm; immediately after this incident all of the pistols were recalled and replaced with the venerable .357s previously used.)

Would a Taser have stopped him? I don't know, but I doubt it.

But my point is still valid: why, in the Vancouver case, was at least one Taser used instead of other methods? Four cops, one guy...I've been there, there was a scuffle, the guy was subdued with bruises only to the cops. (Later I was charged with police brutality in this matter; I and the other three were cleared -- even the guy we arrested was surprised how "mild" we were with him, not using our nightsticks or anything. I may be the only Mudcatter who was ever charged with police brutality....)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:07 PM

Having met you, Rapaire, I can attest that you carry yourself very calmly and you look to be more than capable of handling situations. If you'd ever intended to be 'brutal', the subject would not have walked away from it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:27 PM

Actually, I was on the other side of the car to prevent the prisoner from dashing straight on through. When the prisoner broke and ran, I had to run around the car and by that time the other three guys had the prisoner on the ground; I was the one who put the handcuffs on him and sat next to him in the car as he was taken to the station, booked, and put into the holding cell to "dry out" somewhat.

He was a nasty, mean, vicious, fighting drunk.

Again, I don't know if a Taser would have made any difference even if we'd had such a thing back then.

Oh, by the way -- the complaint was filed by his quiet friend, not by the prisoner.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:06 PM

But you're right, Peace: if it's him or me, I'll do my best to make sure it's him.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 03:22 AM

I have alot of questions about this incident.

Why would any airport allow anyone to 'languish' in the arrival area for 10 hours? Are there no services for people who need a translator? Its supposed to be an International Airport! The mother was there to pick him up but couldn't find him and nobody helped her either.

When the police were called. It took them about 12 seconds to assess the situation. Not much consultation involved at all. After they taser him and he is obviously in agony, they jump on him. It looks to me like they actually attempt to hurt him by putting so much weight on him. Both legs of one officer came completely off the ground. Wasn't the laser enough restraint?

What cowards. It took a laser and a four big guys to restrain a man who needed help and who did not appear to be a threat to anyone. It boggles the mind that assault occurs on a daily basis with little or no consequences but this is the response to a man who smashes a computer!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 03:39 AM

Did I say laser? I meant taser.

Good night.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 06:48 AM

In Oz there has been recently some discussion about letting the cops play with tasers - there have also been several very nasty incidents (as witnessed by external observers) with the recently allowed 'pepper spray'...

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 07:00 AM

The footage has just been shown here, with a long piece with the woman witness who tried to talk to him in a couple of languages, including sign. It seemed to me that he was very frightened. The woman was very distressed, and mention was made that the officers were overheard discussing the use of the taser before they even sighted the man. He was tasered in under a minute from first confrontation from the story presented here. Incidentally no medical staff were called till after he had been down for 12 minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:15 AM

As I understand it, the idea behind the "pile-on" is to a) remove the taser darts and b) try to prevent injury to the victim from his taser-induced "fit" (that's not the word I want, but it's descriptive).

But Dianavan's point is well taken: Why WAS the man allowed to remain without help for 10 hours in a waiting area?   

And what caused him to panic?

There are a LOT of unanswered questions here.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:27 AM

Oh, by the way -- cops here have found that there are people who seem to be immune to pepper spray. It just makes them angry.

And spraying it into the wind is...well, dumb...but it's been done.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: 3refs
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:28 AM

It's pretty easy, to take a look at that short piece of footage they show on the news and conclude that the R.C.M.P. should have done everything differently. Watch the entire video(12-15min)and you'll see that Mr Dziekanskind had, at various times, armed himself and acted in a threatening manner. This is the information the Mounties received. I hope all of you can appreciate the fact, that this kind of information, would be of most concern to any police officer in the world. Mr Dziekanskind made a move towards some of the smashed equipment that was nearby on the floor. Yes, they were big burly boys, but unless you've been smashed in the side of the head with something that someone was able to get their hands on quickly, you don't have a clue.
Sudbury, 1978 I was able to inflict bodily harm on six of them before they finally got me on the ground and then into the cruiser! I wish they'd had a taiser, I'd have taken a hell of a lot less beating and spent a considerable lot less time in jail!!!
And just for the record, up until the Sudbury Regional Police showed up, I hadn't committed any criminal offences(this particular time).

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: 3refs
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:32 AM

Isn't Pepper Spray and Binaca the same thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 01:54 PM

Part of the problem is that the RCMP has no effective civillian oversight, it always investigates itself and it is now among the most underfunded and worst trained police force in Canada. This has led to all sorts of tragedies, not only for the general public, but for members of the force itself.

A large amount of problems occur in BC, because 1/3 of the total RCMP trained in Canada are stationed here. BC has never bothered to form a provincial police force and many municipalities find it cheaper just to hire the RCMP as a policing unit. The RCMP were called to the airport, not because it was a federal facility, but because they are the police force for the City of Richmond, where the facility is located.

According to recent reports I have heard, compared to local municipal and Provincial forces, such as the OPP, their training and requirements for ongoing upgrading has gone in the toilet in the past couple of decades. This is a terrible disservice to those in the force and it puts the general public at far greater risk as well.

As far as what went on at YVR with Mr. Dziekanski, prior to the police being called, having worked on the Customs line at one time, I have my opinions. They were never a particularly helpful, kindly bunch. I would have hoped that things might have changed in the intervening years, but the deafening silence, on their part, would seem to indicate otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bobad
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 02:05 PM

Too much power, too little education.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 02:15 PM

British Columbia DID have a provincial police force, but it was disbanded in the 1950s or '60s. I have some books on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 02:20 PM

AGAIN I say wait for the facts. A little bit of tape do not the whole story make.

Among the things I heard off the Canada radio from just over the border in Vancouver was that after the unfortunate Mr. Dziekanski was down, one of the officers put a knee over his neck. Done just so, this can cause unconsciousness and death. Point being, the taser might not be the killer.

Given the interests over this matter, a proper autopsy must be done.

And again, it is a shame there is not more effort made into parsing a situation in order to distinguish between organized terrorism, criminality, and random crazies or fish very much out of water. Just because it's hard to make a judgment call doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried. Four big coppers, no sign of diversionary activity, time is on their side. There is a whole field in law enforcement given over to negotiators. Maybe some of their training needs to be expanded into non-hostage situations where you have individuals under distress.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 02:26 PM

I stand corrected Rap, we did and the NWMP too. The BC Provincial Police were disbanded shortly after WWII. I know relatively little about them, not having lived lived in the more wild a wooly parts of this province and forgetting my history lessons. Me bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 06:53 PM

Tasers can kill, that's the bottom line. That means that they should never be used unless the situation is such as to justify using a real gun, in which case a taser is a better alternative.

They also inflict terrible pain, and that in itself should rule out any use in circumstances that would not justify shooting. The police don't have the authority to inflict physical punishment on people they are arresting. Judge Dredd has no place outside a comic book.

One aspect of this case is that without the video record, which the police involved were getting away with a largely fabricated story about what happened - and eye-witness statements that contradicted this falsified version were being totally discounted and discredited by the police authorities. What's new there?

From here:
"The four officers involved are still on active duty following an internal review, according to RCMP Cpl. Greg Gillis, a training instruction in the use of Tasers. Mr. Gillis said the review did not show any concern that the officers acted punitively or outside their regular duties. If it had, he said, the officers would likely have been relegated to desk duty or suspended."

And the other thing that hasn't been mentioned here is that all this happened a month ago on October 14th, and it's only come to light now because the attempt by the police - not the individal policemen who were involved in killing Mr Dziekanski, but the department itself - to suppress the video evidence was frustrated by a court action by the man who made the video, and who had handed it to the police in the first place.

"At the request of police, he gave them the video on the understanding they would return it immediately. When they then refused to give it back, he launched court action. Police returned it last week." (from here)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:56 PM

Believe it or not, a Taser puts out less electricity than an automatic external defibrillator (AED). There are, however, Certain Differences....

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 11:32 PM

As for translators, all one needs to do is glance at a passport to see the country of orgin. Very easy to access. Anyone trained in the use of tasers should have all ready been trained in the use of restraint holds & joint locks. If they hadn't been then they had no right being hired for this type of duty.
Deaths of this nature are not acceptable, under any circumstances.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 04:53 AM

It is not often you get the chance to amaze someone, today happens to be my opportunity:

Dianavan you are 100% correct on this. A man was wandering about the controlled arrivals area of an International Airport for 10 hours and no member of staff, immigration, customs or police officer noticed or thought to ask him why. At that point the language problem would have become self-evident - anybody out there willing to tell me that it would have been impossible to take this man to an office with a telephone and arrange for a Polish Translator to talk to the man. I believe that all that could have been accomplished within the first hour.

Now let's have a look at the other side of the arrivals area, the one open to the public. The mother went to pick him up and when he didn't come out through the door she just trotted off without asking if her son had arrived?

In this age of supposed heightened awareness at airports, if the people present were doing their jobs as they are supposed to do, I just cannot for the life of me see how, or why, this incident was allowed to degenerate to the final result of a completely innocent mans death.

What seems to have been singularly lacking in this situation from the word go was total lack of application of common sense by all involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: gnu
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 11:05 AM

Dianavan, Teribus, McGrath, others... spot on. This is unacceptable.

However, for those who would be so quick as to condemn the officers, as I said above, when men with uniforms and guns arrive, I think I would be well advised to stop throwing things and submit to their orders.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 11:19 AM

In my opinion there is no excuse for what the cops did THEY were out of control.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 12:07 PM

True enough, gnu - in the very same way that if some mugger wants your wallet or your phone, you would be best advised to hand it over without making a fuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 12:14 PM

gnu, having followed this closely in the news here and watched the full video, he was not throwing things around when the police arrived. In fact, when the video was shown with the assistance of a Polish translator, he was actually calling for the the Police, as they came up the wallkway.

If someone told you to "put your hands on the desk" in Polish, how many seconds would it take for you to figure out that was what was requested, in order to comply? Ooops, can't figure out "Polozone wasze rece na biurze" in under 5 seconds? Zap! you're down! Try figuring that command out when your exhausted, dehydrated, confused, frustated and have absolutely no understanding of Polish.

Terribus, the Mother had waited in International Arrivals for over 3 hours and made many inquiries at various information kiosks about her son. She was finally told by an airport official that he was not there and to go home.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 03:02 PM

Correction, 6 hours, story here.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 03:12 PM

Kinda looks like a whole buncha people screwed this one up...airport officials, cops....

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 03:22 PM

I heard that interview with the airport official on the CBC and was appalled by his stonewalling; "I don't know", "We don't have an answer" "We haven't looked at that yet." Holy crap, it has been a month since this happened, there should be some answers. I hope when all comes out that someone is willing to take responsibility but the cynic in me says it will be blamed on a breakdown in communications, the system not working the way it is supposed to blah blah blah, everything except people screwing up.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: gnu
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 04:19 PM

Okay. I am sorry. He was completely docile. And the police tasered him just because they felt in tasering mood.

Yeah, right. I am outta here. Have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 04:44 PM

I was downplaying it when I commented previously that custom officers at YVR can be unfriendly and unhelpful. Some that I worked with were obstreperous, brusque, surly, rude, resentful and unabashedly racist. One regular international flight, which usually had immigrants to process, who were commonly treated with contempt and disdain, was nicknamed the Camel Driver's Express.

I witnessed a new immigrant's personal belongings thrown on the floor because the officer on the front line deemed it too unhygienic for him to soil his hands with it. The only help the confused man received was from myself and an Hawaiian Air stewardess on our hands and knees helping him retrieve and repack his meager possessions and directing him to the next area for processing.

As I said, I hope things may have changed, but somehow I doubt the first edict of COVER YOUR ASS has gone by the wayside.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 05:26 PM

He wasn't calm gnu, but he didn't scare one of the women there enough to not approach him and try to assist. When she was interviewed, she said she felt she was not in any personal danger talking to him. He wasn't threatening people, but inanimate objects. Silly woman, eh? Should have tasered her too for her bad judgement.

It would seem they were in a tasering mood, the first words one police officer was overheard to say, as they walked into the adjoining room where the few onlookers were, was, "Can I taser him?"

This was before they entered the other room and he put his hands up.

I will grant they could have felt pressed for time though. There was another flight due to arrive in a few minutes. God knows you wouldn't want to delay more passengers for awhile. Some of them could have been armed with hand luggage.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 05:48 PM

As a Canadian I must say I am truly ashamed and enraged after this tragic incident.
   Airport staff who were so unhelpful deserve to be fired. Custom staff who were on duty at the time should be dismissed as well.
The RCMP have been caught in the act by a citizen with a video camera. Their first concern seems to have been to confiscate the damning evidence. I understand that it took a court order for his property to be returned. The mounties spin doctors were called in to cover their collective arses while they investigated themselves. If it were not for this indisputable evidence it would be the word of four mounties against a couple of witnesses and the truth may have been much less readily apparent.
The RCMP has long been a symbol of the best of our heritage. The force is populated by fine and dedicated people who are willing to lay their lives on the line to protect the rest of us, and those certainly deserve our respect and thanks. However these four bad apples should have long ago been charged with criminal negligence causing death. If any other persons did this they would be before a judge the next day to face that charge. Other charges could be laid following a full investigation but the video is sufficient evidence to lay the preliminary charge. That would have put the RCMP in a better light. Instead they gave us spin. The head of the force has recently been forced out and he has been replaced with a civilian leader in order to clean the force up. So far improvement seems lacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 06:44 PM

Thanks for the information Metchosin.

So after repeated and what must have been obviously concerned requests by the mother regarding her son's whereabouts nobody at the airport could communicate, or more likely be bothered to communicate, through a glass partion.

If they had someone might just have exercised enough common sense to put two and two together, I mean the guy was only wandering around there for 8/10 hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 07:06 PM

my opinion, though I havent looked at any stats to back this up, is that
once armed with a (supposedly) less lethal weapon such as the taser- the
police are much more likely to use it than to have to wrestle the guy down (even though theres 4 of them).

although it may not have been the taser that caused his death, according to the man who filmed the incident one of the cops had his knee on the mans neck and at one point in the video you see all his weight on it as his other leg is off the ground.

of course police work is dangerous, however there has been a string of incidents which resulted in the death people in custody - and no real accountability..
for instance a young man with no criminal past - arrested for drinking in a public place - sent to the drunk tank - ends up being shot in the back of the head by the one police officer on duty in the jail that night. The coroners and subsequent enquiry found no guilt - the police officer was afraid for his life ..

currently theres an inquiry into the death of an aboriginal man - who after being taken to a drunk tank - is dragged out unconscious, in his soaking wet clothes into below zero weather and dies of exposure.
The 2 police officers involved were 'punished' by having 2 days suspension (paid leave). Frank Paul Inquiry

elsewhere in Saskatchewan where the weather often drops below 40 in winter,
there was a number of first nations (aboriginal) men who died of exposure outside city limits.. Later it came out that a group of police officers regularly dropped people off in the middle of nowhere.. again it was covered up for years and even after a public inquiry - the only real punishment was that two were kicked off the force..Stone Child Inquiry

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 07:42 PM

I respect cops, all cops. They put themselves where you and I would much rather not be, and the best are damned good indeed. I personally know one African-American cop who, unarmed, would talk to gangs who knew he was a cop and unarmed and troublemakers, trying to prevent violence and crime.

I do not respect bad or unprofessional cops. These four seem to fall in this category. They appear to be among those who feel that since they have a badge and gun they have the right to run roughshod over others. I've met this kind, too.

Cops are given weapons -- lethal and otherwise -- for the protection of society. Some lose sight of this.

As I noted earlier, the PD here is considering Tasers. I talked, informally, to JR (the Police Chief) about them. He said that the same rules that apply to the use of lethal force should and would apply to the use of Tasers. That sounds reasonable to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 08:19 PM

I certainly agree Rapaire that the police should be equipped with Tasers
or a similar weapon to be used if possible before lethal force. My reasoning is that it may save lives rather than take them. It should never be used as a routine tool. In this case it was four (I would expect highly trained officers) against one poor confused soul. There was no time taken to evaluate the situation or any reasonable fear of threat. The Taser was just used as a tool to apprehend someone who wasn't going anywhere. If he had survived the police would have been nothing short of bullies who were negligent of any safety for the man. Since he died the action was criminal and the officers should have been arrested and charged as soon as reasonably possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 08:36 PM

This apparently only came to the attention of the media, after a whole month had passed, because another passenger videoed it, and was able to defeat the attempt by the police to suppress the recording.

Is there CCTV footage of this, which the police have succeeded in suppressing? In England there probably would be - there's CCTV pretty well everywhere, certainly in an airport terminal..

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 09:08 PM

It's comstantly been in the media here McGrath since it first occurred. The young man who filmed the whole event has been interviewed non-stop. He had to go to court to get his video released and it pretty much confirms what he and the other witnesses first recounted and not the story of the event, first put forward by an RCMP spokesman.

There should be CCTV of what he was doing for the ten hours prior to his tragic death, but this is Canada, eh. It won't come forward from airport officials anytime soon. Who knows, perhaps in the intervening months...years....it will get accidentally erased.....or the cameras will be discovered to have been non-operational. Stuff like that has been known to happen here before. People in this Province a getting a bit cynical regarding almost anything surrounding the RCMP. Its a shame too, they used to be a force to be proud of.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 09:28 PM

Another thing -- Taser makes a camera that works with their taser units. It does add to the cost of the taser units, but it provides accountability and validation for cops (or not, as the case may be).

The Sheriff's department here, which has Tasers, also has the cameras. So will our PD, just as they have video cameras in their cars that record pullovers, etc.

Cops are only afraid of cameras if the camera shows bad police work.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 09:37 PM

The following is by NO MEANS an attempt to trivialize the unfortunate events under discussion, but in 2004 a quite prescient movie came out: "The Terminal" directed by Steven Spielberg and starring Tom Hanks as an Eastern European working man stranded in a United States international airport. He has very little English but he's, well, Tom Hanks, so he manages to get himself a job, a girlfriend, and become the bane of the manager of airport security, the underlying theme being that his common humanity triumphs over the odds of insentient bureacracy.

In one scene he pretty much saves another Eastern European man who is trying to bring medicine through customs for his mother. If the pills are what they are supposed to be, i e lifesaving medication for a person, he can't bring them through, but if they are for an animal, he can. Tom as translator does the right thing.

I didn't believe the movie corresponded to real events, but now I think it understated them, and was just a bit over optimistic, alas.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: CET
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 12:57 PM

Damn right, Rapaire. You and just about everyone else who has seen the video had the same reaction - how could these cops possibly have needed the Tasers. They were four to one, all big, strong, fit, trained men, and younger than the victim from what I could see.

Americans might be surprised at the level of rage and disgust this has caused in Canada. Check out the Globe & Mail editorial on this killing. The RCMP are in very deep trouble.

By the way, Rapaire, you have a surprising knowledge of police history in B.C. Were you a Canadian Military Policeman?

Edmund

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 01:21 PM

The RCMP say that the four men have been "re-assigned", whatever the hell that means; Maybe following the Musical Ride with a pushbroom, but still no preliminary charges.
They say that they are calling in the Ontario Provincial Police to investigate. Considering the less than illustrious record of this bunch it hardly enhances confidence in the system!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 03:40 PM

No, I was assigned to the 984th Military Police Company and attached to the Ft. Carson detachment of the 5th MP Group (Criminal Investigation Division) of the US Army. That is to say, I mostly worked in the detective arm of the Military Police. That was AFTER the incident where I and others were charged with police brutality.

I just happen to like reading about the histories of various things in various countries, police work among them.

(The Musical Ride appeared in Colorado Springs, and the 984th went to help control traffic, etc. Two top-notch police units, together -- and what did they talk about? Do you think it was crime prevention? Better detection methods? Nope. They talked about the best way to keep boots and shoes at peak shine.)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:45 AM

100   :>)