BS: Fawning Germans

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:27 PM

The last thing you'd surely want, if you were a soldier recovering in hospital, is any politician pestering you as part of some a public relations exercise. If Obama had done what he's being blamed for not doing, it would have been both not just politically stupid, but very bad manners.

There used to be talk about people carrying cars saying that, in the event of their being injured in am IRA bombing or whatever, they did not wish to have Margaret Thatcher come to visit their bedside.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:33 PM

Good news for Manfred, Wilfried, 5oag and me!

The culprits have been found - members of the N24 news network have been found to be the fawning germans!

Excerpt from an article in Germany`s "Frankurter Allgemeine Zeitung" of today:

"Am Nachmittag strahlt N24-Reporter Heiko Paluschka wie ein kleiner Junge, der beim Fußball gerade zum Mannschaftskapitän befördert wurde: Er hat mit Barack Obama gesprochen! Exklusiv! Und sonst keiner! Hektisch unterbrechen die Moderatoren im Studio ihre Analyse, um zu ihm zu schalten, dann laufen die sensationellen Bilder: Obama steigt am Potsdamer Platz aus dem Auto, die N24-Kamera wackelt hinterher, aus dem Hintergrund ruft eine Stimme: „Mr. Obama, how do you like Berlin so far?" Obama weiß nicht, wo er hinschauen soll, ruft „It's wonderful" in die Menge, winkt und verschwindet wieder. Die Kollegin im Studio sagt begeistert: „Herzlichen Glückwunsch, Heiko. Du hast es geschafft!" So sehen Höhepunkte einer Reporterkarriere aus"

Very rough translation:
"In the afternoon N24 reporter Heiko Paluschka is grinning like a child that has just been made captain of his soccer team: He spoke with Barack Obama! Exclusive! Hectically the anchormen in the studio stop their analysis switching to him, then the sensational pictures appear: Obama is leaving the car at Potsdamer Platz, N24`s camera is bouncing behind, from the back a voice is heard: "Mr. Obama, how do you like Berlin so far?" Obama doesn`t know where to look, answers "It`s wonderful!" in the direction of the crowd, waves and disappears again. Presenter in the studio says: Congratulations, Heiko. You made it!" So looks the climax of a reporters career!"

article from FAZ (only in german)

My Conclusion:
McCains (or Mr. Bound`s) remark was rude. Still some of my countrymen act funny - (purposely?) overhearing that even Obama expects a stronger German engagement in Afghanistan.

Having not been part of that throngs I don`t see a reason to feel personally insulted.

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:43 PM

An afterthought:

At least those Germans are fawning a real Democrat (pun intended) now, not just a flawless* one....

;0)
Ernest



* for those who haven`t heard/don`t remember: Our former chancellor Schröder once called Putin a "flawless democrat" (lupenreiner Demokrat)

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:51 PM

Ernest,

It seems that Putin is quite capable of fooling world leaders. Do you think that one day his people will see through him?

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:17 PM

Good question, Jack.

Hard to tell what the russian people as a group will do. I think there are already people who see through him. Others might never do.

One wonders if Schröders weak eyes helped him to find a well payed job at Gazprom....

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:23 PM

'Splain, Amos. Which invasion of the Philippines? The one in WW2?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:28 PM

I've never liked fawn. Lets paint them another colour.....magnolia! Its neutral, its modern - it goes well with modern furniture. And it lets people see they could superimpose their own style on Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:39 PM

Doug,

I think Amos is refering to the point that the US started the Spanish-American War. Like the war against Tripoli, the Mexican war, the Civil War, the war of 1812, there is always a doubt as to who started the war. After all, the taking of a US ship by "pirates" was accepeed practice- we just would not pay ransom, and were held responsible for the lost value ( to Tripoli) when we burned it. The SA war was caused by the Hearst newspapers, after there was an accidental explosion aboard the Maine. The War of 1812 was caused by the US response to the British actions of "impressing" sailors that the British claimed were formerly their citizens, and the Mexican war was a land grab, of course.

And we will not discuss any of the wars caused by the Monroe Doctrine ( ie, our invasions of most of Central/South America



So much for "the United States started a war with a first-strike invasion for the first time in its history," : We have been doing it all along.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:41 PM

No, Doug, this war in the Phillipines, immediatedly following the end of the Spanish-American War in 1989:

"Many in the United States, including President McKinley and Theodore Roosevelt, welcomed Kipling's rousing call for the United States to engage in "savage wars," beginning in the Philippines. Senator Albert J. Beveridge of Indiana declared: "God has not been preparing the English-speaking and Teutonic peoples for a thousand years for nothing but vain and idle self-contemplation and self-admiration....He has made us adept in government that we may administer government among savage and senile peoples." In the end more than 126,000 officers and men were sent to the Philippines to put down the Filipino resistance during a war that lasted officially from 1899 to 1902 but actually continued much longer, with sporadic resistance for most of a decade. U.S. troops logged 2,800 engagements with the Filipino resistance. At least a quarter of a million Filipinos, most of them civilians, were killed along with 4,200 U.S. soldiers (more than ten times the number of U.S. fatalities in the Spanish-American War).*

From the beginning it was clear that the Filipino forces were unable to match the United States in conventional warfare. They therefore quickly switched to guerrilla warfare. U.S. troops at war with the Filipinos boasted in a popular marching song that they would "civilize them with the Krag" (referring to the Norwegian-designed gun with which the U.S. forces were outfitted). Yet they found themselves facing interminable small attacks and ambushes by Filipinos, who often carried long knives known as bolos. These guerrilla attacks resulted in combat deaths of U.S. soldiers in small numbers on a regular basis. As in all prolonged guerrilla wars, the strength of the Filipino resistance was due to the fact that it had the support of the Filipino population in general. As General Arthur MacArthur (the father of Douglas MacArthur), who became military governor of the Philippines in 1900, confided to a reporter in 1899:

When I first started in against these rebels, I believed that Aguinaldo's troops represented only a faction. I did not like to believe that the whole population of Luzon—the native population that is—was opposed to us and our offers of aid and good government. But after having come this far, after having occupied several towns and cities in succession... I have been reluctantly compelled to believe that the Filipino masses are loyal to Aguinaldo and the government which he heads.
Faced with a guerrilla struggle supported by the vast majority of the population, the U.S. military responded by resettling populations in concentration camps, burning down villages (Filipinos were sometimes forced to carry the petrol used in burning down their own homes), mass hangings and bayonetings of suspects, systematic raping of women and girls, and torture. The most infamous torture technique, used repeatedly in the war, was the so-called "water cure." Vast quantities of water were forced down the throats of prisoners. Their stomachs were then stepped on so that the water shot out three feet in the air "like an artesian well." Most victims died not long afterwards. General Frederick Funston did not hesitate to announce that he had personally strung up a group of thirty-five Filipino civilians suspected of supporting the Filipino revolutionaries. Major Edwin Glenn saw no reason to deny the charge that he had made a group of forty-seven Filipino prisoners kneel and "repent of their sins" before bayoneting and clubbing them to death. General Jacob Smith ordered his troops to "kill and burn," to target "everything over ten," and to turn the island of Samar into "a howling wilderness." General William Shafter in California declared that it might be necessary to kill half the Filipino population in order to bring "perfect justice" to the other half. During the Philippine War the United States reversed the normal casualty statistics of war—usually many more are wounded than killed. According to official statistics (discussed in Congressional hearings on the war) U.S. troops killed fifteen times as many Filipinos as they wounded. This fit with frequent reports by U.S. soldiers that wounded and captured Filipino combatants were summarily executed on the spot.

***

For the whole article go to this link:

War in the Phillipines

Sorry to once again destroy your naive faith in your national mythology of "liberty and justice for all", Doug...but there it is. Just read the history books and find out how one grand imperial order (the Spanish) got replaced by another (the USA) against the explicit wishes of the native population of a foreign land.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Leadbelly
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 03:22 PM

Apart from all so far: isn't it funny that no prominent german politician has protested because of this insult of german people in Berlin? ....fawning...Mrs. Merkel...George Bush....???

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:25 PM

Leadbelly: Since when is Bush a prominent GERMAN politician????

And German politicians (well: politicians from everywhere) have done their share when it comes to insulting someone I guess...


"Those who sit in a glass house shalt throw the first stone..."

;0)
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Leadbelly
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:06 PM

Ernest; my little play with words should mean: Merkel might be one prominent person who is really fawning because she does/did not protest. And obviously, that's because of her beloved friend in mind George W.
Was it so difficult to understand this? If so, sorry.

Manfred

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:33 PM

Didn't Merkel say she wanted a massage from Obama?

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:39 PM

Doug R...would you care to respond to my request for clarification at 12:51PM? Or are my remarks irrelevant once Amos and a couple others have posted?

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:02 PM

the end of the Spanish-American War in 1989...

They managed to keep that one out of the papers didn't they!

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:19 PM

With regard to the Spanish American War of 1898-?, the Philippine guerilla leader Emilio Aguinaldo was lured aboard a U.S. Navy gunboat for negotiations and then murdered. Not a pretty footnote to our history of spreading democracy around the world.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:43 PM

Yeah, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Many thousands of Filipinos were murdered and tortured by the American forces and were put in concentration camps for nothing else than having the same aspirations for national independence and self-government that the Americans are so proud of having had themselves in 1776.

The same kind of thing happened to the Vietnamese, who should have been given their independence in 1945. If they had been, there'd have been no Vietnam War.

The French should have left. The Americans should never have gone in. Vietnam was betrayed by the Allies after WWII, just like the Phillipines and Cuba were betrayed by the USA after the Spanish-American War.

Why? Because Great Powers behave as Great Powers. They do what is good for them, not for the indigenous populations in the small countries where they send their conquering armies. Empire is empire, and it knows no rule but its own hunger for dominion over the Earth and the Earth's resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Ernest
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 07:25 AM

Leadbelly,

by claiming that Mrs. Merkel is fawning Bush you prove McCains/Bounds remark, that Obama did meet fawning Germans (at least 1).

Furthermore according to your own standards this would be an insult to Mrs. Merkel - which gives proof to my point that insults like that are far to common to make a fuzz about it.

Nevertheless you may take this posting as my sincere protest...;0)

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 09:42 AM

Well, if people believe this 'war on terror' imperial war is the first one conducted by the US government, then we have very poorly informed voters who are a sucker for anything.

Add those (Phillipines, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq) to the covert wars in Central and South America using proxy paramilitaries and government forces alongside our CIA (El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Columbia, Chile, Panama, Haiti, Argentina, Cuba), and you have quite a long list of imperial US military adventurism.

Anyone who believes Barack Obama will 'break the mold' of US imperial presidents isn't paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 09:47 AM

"Anyone who believes Barack Obama will 'break the mold' of US imperial presidents isn't paying attention."

That is a bit much to ask. I'd settle for looking before he leaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 09:57 AM

My feeling is that if Obama tried to stop the imperial engine he would soon find that he could not stop it and he would be in great peril of losing his own life if he tried to.

Yes, DV, the list of imperial wars launched by the USA is a very long one. Most of them have been covert wars, the majority of those in Latin America, a region which the USA has regarded as its private fiefdom ever since the Monroe Doctrine.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:02 AM

And repeats the behavior, and leaps anyway? How does that reassure you?

Obama's stated policy positions on the war between Israel and the Palestinians is abysmal, as his trip to the Middle East proved beyond a doubt.

His stated policy positions on the so-called 'war on terror' is to move troops from Iraq to Afghanistan, not remove them from the area and bring them home. So that will be a continuation of the imperial wars in the Middle East, where the US invaded two coutries without being attacked by either.

And before any one says that Bin Laden was operating from Afhanistan, let it be known he was also operating from Pakistan--one of our great nuclear allies in the region--and no sanctions have ever been placed on Pakistan, much less military action taken to pursue Al Qaida there.

The biggest, most dangerous unknown quantity right now is what Obama will do regarding Iran. Here too, the US imperial covert wars never get mentioned--the Iran-Iraq war, the propping up of the Shah with our CIA operations, etc.

No, neither McCain or Obama will change the direction of US foreign policy, and anyone who believes one or the other of them will has their head buried in the sand.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:15 AM

I disagree that any major party presidential candidate who doesn't tow the imperial line is unelectable.

I find that position untenable, and cowardly in a way that props up status quo thinking.

I'm not saying that a US president will ever come out and apologize for the US' imperial militarism of the last couple of centuries. We shouldn't leave the imperial wars against the North American native peoples and the enslavement of Africans brought to the US in this either.

But one day in the not too distant future, we will have a US president who will be faced with either maintaining the military industrial complex, or maintaining the nation itself.

And in a strange, ironic way, we do have George W Bush to thank by potentially speeding that process up. The increases in military spending, and busting of the US government's budget for maintaining it's own infrastructures, will have an impact for generations to come.

Which makes the likelihood of a US president being elected in my lifetime (ie, within the next 30-40 years) that so drastically reduces US military adventurism and the military budget, that the nation is no longer any more of a military 'superpower' than any European nation, Russia, or China.

Our governments (Europe, China, Russia, US) have created a military industrial complex that financially is unsustainable. Just like with the energy crisis staring us in the face, we are soon to face the same crisis in military sustainability. Don't forget what fuel the military runs on, and what fuels are used to build all that hardware and move it around the globe.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:16 AM

I believe both will be a big change from Bush.

Obama seems to me to be similar to Bush 41 in foreign policy. I think that he has taken the "Powell Doctrine" to heart. He may engage in adventure, but would not be nearly as wasteful with lives and treasure as Bush 43.

I think that McCain will analyze military options much more than Bush did. But I also think that he might take bigger risks for bigger rewards. The desperation of his campaign at this early point indicates that he may not be as prudent as I would like.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:17 AM

Fortunately, not everyone agrees with DV's profoundly pessimistic view of things.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:41 AM

Your post of 10:15 AM is an interesting one, DV. You may be right in what you say. All aggressive empires eventually overreach themselves and have to reduce or even abandon their imperial ambitions. It's the nature of the Beast. It lives by devouring others, but eventually it devours too much and gets ill....or it simply runs out of available food sources...or the others band together and destroy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 01:10 PM

Apologies for the typos today, I've had an eye exam with pupils dilated so I'm not exactly seeing straight!

Energy is what will cut down on all nations military adventurism. The one true blessing of the energy crisis is that it won't make distinctions between industries that must die.

I really believe the ability to foresee this is generational. I know of very few boomers who have even considered the possibility of the US military running out of gas. Yet, boomer political leaders know it full well, and have been conducting foreign policy accordingly, hence the era of wars for oil.

Iraq won't be the last, either. There are other energy giants like Mexico, Venezuela, Nigeria, etc. and all those nations do not currently kow tow to the US.

We'll see quite a bit more of that in the very near future, and the great irony of it all is--the wars for oil will run the world out of oil faster than converting an imperial superpower military industrial economy (which is what the US is and has been since the late 19th century) to a peacetime green economy will, and cost humanity far, far more than the peaceful conversion to a sustainable mixed economy, with both socialized/nationalized industries and private industries that aren't based upon consumer capitalism of the past.

The victory of imperial consumer capitalism over communism and mixed socialism/sustainable capitalism in the 1980s hasn't been all it's cracked up to be for the people of the planet or the planet.

In fact, from the way it is looking now, it looks like the 1980s was already too late to do anything to pull back from the brink of climate change.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 02:30 PM

Nobody seems to have mentioned the series of successful wars which enabled what had been a relatively small strip to conquer territory across the whole continent of North America.

People often talk about imperialism as if it was about ruling far distant countries around the world, but that's a historically atypical type of imperialism. The American model in which boundaries are extended by taking over the land of neighbours has been the much more common kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 02:39 PM

HEY!

In the case of the Louisianna Purchase and Alaska, we paid CASH.


The US does NOT only expand through warfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 02:44 PM

Hello McGrath,

I did mention Panama, but there is still a considerable list of countries I didn't mention specifically the US has invaded/occupied or been at war with either directly or by proxy, including Grenada, post-WWII occupations in Europe and the Pacific Rim, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 02:48 PM

And to whom did the US government pay cash?

Not the native peoples who had inhabited the land for a millenia or two!

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 03:08 PM

"Not the native peoples who had inhabited the land for a millenia or two! "


Who also stole it from the earlier inhabitants.

The Aborigines in Aus. MAY be the only population that still resides in it's original area ( thought I believe they migrated there, it was not inhabited beforehand.)


Hmm. the Esquimaux ( driven into fringe areas by later migration) and the Terra del Feugo people might also claimed to be original inhabitants...

But even the Celts invaded a populated land and drove off the original owners.

As did the Franks, Saxons, Russ, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 03:39 PM

Yeah, it's a sad business. People with superior military power have been stealing land and resources from other people for as long as history has been recorded.

One reason that many Indian tribes allied with the Whites was to get back at other Indian tribes who were traditional enemies. In Mexico, for example, virtually all the other Indians allied with the Spanish to fight the Aztecs...little realizing that the Spanish would turn out to be even worse than the Aztecs once they took over.

(Not that the Aztecs were any fun to have as neighbours! They were a vicious empire.)

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Ernest
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:19 PM

Actually I think the USA is the only country which bought vast parts of their territory.

Some countries might have got a bit by marriage, but the majority just conquered foreign lands. As LH pointed out this also applies to indigenous people.

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:35 PM

Right, but I'm stuck trying to figure out who was in North America before the indigenous peoples of North America.

Fawning Germans?

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:44 PM

Look at the waves of American immigration ( from about 100,000 years ago to today). Most were groups driven out of Asia/Europe by others who crossed the Bering Straits, driving the previous groups ( that ended up being pushed North ( Esquimaux) and South (Terra del Fuagans) , and in turn being pushed by the next wave into new areas. NOBODY is where they started.

http://www.amnh.org/science/biodiversity/extinction/Intro/HumanMigration.html

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:46 PM

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071025160653.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: pdq
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 05:41 PM

anthropology:

    The science of man, including the study of the distribution
    of physical and cultural attributes in relation to man's
    origin, location, history, and environment; -- sometimes
    used in a limited sense to mean the study of man as an
    object of natural history, or as an animal.
       {1913 Webster}


Well, there is one thing certain about anthropology: it is not much of a science. No two anthropologists agree exactly on very much and all have their prejudices mixed, to varying degrees, in their conclusions.

I have read several books, including compilations, about the origin of North American natives. My best guess is that eastern US tribes like the Delaware, Mohawk and Cherokee (of which I am 1/16) are all Caucasian and have European roots, although ancient.

The Eskimo are people who were kicked out of the islands now known as Japan, and are relatively recent. The far-north tribes in Alaska and Canada came over the top of the planet from Siberia and are similar to many people from the Holarctic region.

South of the US are people who are Proto-Australian, a group whose ancestors are extinct .They once ruled some of the Pacific islands and Australia, but were driven out by aggressive immigration by newer tribes from Africa and Asia Minor.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 05:43 PM

The point is not that there's something unique about the expansion of the United States, but quite the other way round, that it's an instance example of a widespread aspect of human history in which what have generally been referred to as "empires" have been assembled by a process of expansion through various methods - conquest, dynastic marriage, treaty, purchase.

There's no justification for restricting the terms "empire" and "imperialism" to the relatively unusual far-flung variety, typified by the British Empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 07:44 PM

Fascinating how those anthropological accounts give either European or Australian origins to native peoples of the Americas.

Except, I don't think so.

If we want to go back as far as the origins go, there is no evidence except either China or Africa.

Pick yer poison.

That said, to claim the indigenous peoples of the Americas are indigenous is just pure racism, IMO.

Sorry to throw that gauntlet, but your cultural arguments about natives in the Americas has a very EurAm anthro bullshit ring to it.

Please remember, anthropology is a *social* (not hard) science of the imperial colonizers, and they make "theoretical" claims that cannot be substantiated, but that put their cultures on top and in charge of the rest of the world. Meaning no one is "native" but them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:12 PM

Correction: should read "...to claim the indigenous peoples of the Americas are NOT indigenous..."

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:24 PM

Main Entry:
in·dig·e·nous
Pronunciation:
\in-ˈdi-jə-nəs\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Late Latin indigenus, from Latin indigena, noun, native, from Old Latin indu, endo in, within + Latin gignere to beget — more at end-, kin
Date:
1646
1 : having originated in and being produced, growing, living, or occurring naturally in a particular region or environment [indigenous plants] [the indigenous culture]
2 : innate, inborn

Is it fair to say that the ancestors of native people migrated to the land thousands of years ago and their descendants are indigenous? Having originated (been born) in a region, been produced there, occurring naturally(?) there?

Does not New Orleans have an indigenous culture?

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: pdq
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:33 PM

"Is it fair to say that the ancestors of native people migrated to the land thousands of years ago and their descendants are indigenous?"

Sounds about right to me. Not sure what recently-arrived GUEST has a problem with. Seems to want to yell "racism!" at every available opportunity, called for or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:36 PM

Are the peoples of India natives? How about the Phillipines?

Or Pakistan?

Or Crete?

You see the problem, when you start to extrapolate this? Who would claim the peoples of Crete aren't indigenous or native?

Answer: someone with an ax to grind who wants either their land or resources or both. Which is why the English always claim the Celtic peoples aren't natives to the islands--but they are?

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:38 PM

pdq, you can have a look at my posting history. I think you will find I do NOT cry racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:39 PM

If I were sent back to my country of national origin, one quarter of my body would go to Lithuania, one quarter to Rumania, one quarter to Hungary, and the other quarter would end up as chopped meat in California, needing to be redistributed to various parts of the UK (for lack of a better term).

I was born in Maine but my parents were not, which makes me an "inside-outsider" to the long term natives. "Just because a cat has kittens in the oven, doesn't make the kittens biscuits!"

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 09:10 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Karl Jaspers
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:43 PM

Belief, delusion, or hallucination?

In my learned opinion, I would say transcendance no, secondary delusion maybe.

Achsenzeit!